A Student Remembers a Great Teacher

AHhh, so there you are Samina. For a while I thought you`d actually just pulled a David Copperfield on us after I asked you to do me the favour of pointing out where, exactly, I`d brought up ``child love, as usual``. Heck, come to think of it, you still haven`t done that homework, but tell you what, considering all the verbal pirouetting and mental gymnastics you`re putting so much effort into here, I`ll give you some more time. `Cause I KNOW you`re a person who values honour and would not go so low as to, like, just evade an issue after you`ve brought it up. But rest assured, some idiot-level I.Q folks like myself also have a sense of honour, if not the literary prowess that you have that oh so intimidates us, and this might prompt us to keep asking you to defend your statements. So, unless you have the sense to know what the truly honourable thing to do would be, well, be prepared for a long episode of ank-at-your-heels dogginess.

Now dear, on to your rather weak, if I might say (and this really does disappoint me, because, in a way, you put Said in a bad light), critique of that passage of Bruce WhatsHisSuranme: You write:
``Please go ahead and support Bruce`s claims. Knock yourself out. HA!HA!HA! Sahib will support you in his sneaky and covert way that makes generalizations about Islam. Buy each other drinks and go on double dates with...um...okay, I am stopping myself here from making another nasty remark.... ``
Oh no, please don’t stop... after all the silly ones you`ve made, heck, nasty would be a kind of intellectual comeuppance. (And, pssst.. you’re fooling no one with your nervous laughter either) Ok, so let me get this right... your beef with that Bruce guy (and with Chowk Cretin) is that they make sweeping generalizations about Islam. Okay, so let`s examine what Bruce said again in that passage:

````...But what’s odd about Covering Islam is that it never really gets around to the ticklish topic of Islam itself. Granted, the Western media have frequently simplified and caricatured the Islamic world – but then, they do this to everything. Besides, a substantial percentage of Moslems are in fact religious fundamentalists who despise individual liberty and sexual equality, who believe profoundly that all sorts of things should be punished by death, and who readily cheer acts of violence directed against innocent civilians in the West. Tirelessly, Said dances around or rushes past these facts. Time and again he dismisses ``fundamentalism`` as an anti-Moslem code word...”

Now, dear, in your anxious fervour to brand this another example of western generalization, which part “a substantial number of Moslems” did you encounter problems with? Does this sixth-grade teacher need to spell out your problems with consistency for you?? Even Said, in his critiques of Western Media and academia, has often been less qualifying in his ‘generalizations’. But that’s cool. You, see, normal people, not out to give each word an interpretative weight of a Foucault tome, will generally take such generalizations for granted—that is, as necessary if one is to prevent a text being deluged in qualifications.

But oh, you still haven’t told me where I brought up child, love. Remember, I’m still waiting on that one. Maybe your own sense of honour does not demand that you justify your contention, but rest assured, mine demands that I keep prodding you for one, unless of course, you do the ‘other’ honourable thing. I think you’re honour-equipped enough to know what that thing is.

rgds,
PM

Samina, in case you missed the point in the fog:
Which part of ``a substantial number of Moslems`` lends itself to an interpretation that concludes that Bruce is a generalizing bigot? Or perhaps you don`t accept the veracity of that qualification either. hello, paid any visits to Paksitan lately? Saudi Arabia? India? Iran?

---

Goddammit.. i`m on the same bench as Crummy Cretin now!

``Hamid Bhai, Sameer and friends, this shezadi is tired of having to do all the work. Life isnt the way it used to be when Nani at 13 had to keep house for Nana and all his sisters...``
Got issues?

re. Hamidbhai ;) #117
``............. he wrote a whole book in defense of islam .... the book should have been called ``covering up islam`` ``
Dear oh dear! Another one bites the dust. Oh well, maybe Shahzadi can get some her reallife Commnity College freshpersons to aid her defense. I mean, extra credit could always do when intellectuall `rigour` can`t cut it.

faisal, re #124
Without wishing to detract from the issue you point out and obviously feel close to your heart (and which is as important as it is egregrious) may I remind you, as a self-respecting Pakistani, that there are a certain 230,000 disenfranchised Pakisanis some 2,000 miles south of Karachi, roughing it out in squattter camps for the past three-and-some decades, their only sin having been patriotic Pakistanis.
On a cheerier note, how are you finding Karachi?!? See any changes?
rgds,
PM

Ms. Shah,

I haven`t actually changed my opinion about Said. If you bother to bo back and read my posts on the earlier thread, I had actually said that (in post #24) ``For every sensible point he raised, he also uttered nine absurdities.`` How is this materially different from my post here? I said that these articles were anti-Said and that I actually hadn`t read the book in question so I couldn`t vouch for the authenticity of the quotation. However, I have no real reason to doubt it but if people who claim to be Said scholars read the book AND can`t find the quotation, THEN I would apologize to all and sundry.

I don`t see either you or MNI or any other Said apologist actually addressing the points I have raised about his tendency towards hysterical polemics--how else would you describe ``Since the enlightenment, Dr. Said wrote, ``every European, in what he could say about the Orient, was a racist, an imperialist, and almost totally ethnocentric`` (this is from his NYT obituary). Or his ignoring all of the ``Orientalists`` who might have countered his very interesting take on Western study of the ``Orient:`` ignore many of the real scholars and castigate fiction authors and travelogue writers for perpetuating offensive stereotypes?

Said is a great favorite among certain type of PoMo intellectuals (the same ones who read, edit and write for trash journals like ``Social Text``). As the reviews of his book indicate, actual scholars of the subject have some serious qualms about his work.

So tell you what, you point out how exactly all the reviewers I`ve cited are wrong and I`ll read and report on that lengthy quotation you posted. Deal?

BTW, MNI, still waiting for YOUR refutation of the reviews.

---

Hamidm and Romair

Just curious about why disagreeing with your views on any subject automatically makes one an idiot? Are you two up for the Nobel Prize in everything this year?

TAhmed321,
I was as shocked as the next gal to read about the things you say PM has supposedly done. When he posted a reply to hamidm, I followed the link to see what it was all about. What he has written troubles me, to be honest. But to stay honest, I think his charge that you have badly (self-servingly?) misread and misunderstood a lot of what he has written stands true.
For one, I don`t know where you came up with the idea that PM molested anyone in his charge. Maybe you read something somewhere else that supports this idea? This is a serious issue, you are making a serious accusation that in the ``real world`` could get *you* time for libel, which I am sure you would not want to be guilty of, even if not prosecuted for.
At the same time, if what you say is true, we need to as responsible citizens (I`m assuming you are a Pakistani) take some action.
So, please direct me to the source of your info on PM`s actions.
PM, I a willing to keep an open mind on this, feel free to throw in your views. I generally like your viewpoints and the forceful way in which your present them.
--WildeLover

faisaluno #124 mni #119 Normally, I would ignore insulting posts like yours. But I will respond this time:

Yes, I am a simpleton. If someone presents a relevant fact on some issue (like the passage I cut and paste from Said), I focus on that piece of evidence. I dont start abusing the poster.

You two on the other hand have chosen to cover up unpleasant facts (and in case of mni have failed to back claims as you easily could have done if you were speaking the truth about certain books being anti-Islam) by ridiculing me instead. Such posts describe you and your upbringing, and say nothing about me.

Now you can cover up this unpleasant fact by writing some more abusive posts from the safety of your homes. Doesnt bother me.

Saminasha,

I have firm belief, that atleast through this discussion more of these people will read Edward Said and his works....

You know ... I have a friend... (who is the bass guitarist for Mekaal Hassan Band and now a rockstar) ... he and I went to high school and then Rutgers together... he was bright not very well read ... hence his intellectual level wasn`t something to write home about. In his 3rd year he completed his major requirements and was left with a whole lot of electives. All of sudden one day he announced to us that he was taking an independent study course under Professor Davis`s supervision... now Dr. Davis was known to be a very tough teacher who didn`t grade easy... so we tried to warn our friend against taking his course.. but his mind was made up.

One of the books he had to read in this independent study course was `Orientalism`... since my friends thought of me as someone who was interested in this `nerdy` stuff, he would often call me up to discuss Said... soon he was totally obsessed with him, and his book. Ultimately he did get an A in the course... and he made Middle Eastern Studies his minor. Eversince then my friend hasn`t looked back... today I rate him as a fine intellectual... and he attributes his newly found curiousity and `intellect` solely to Edward Said`s book, after which many bulbs in his mind suddenly lit up.



-YLH

mni:

simpleton is at least loyal. white man gave him the only thing he has aspired to in his life, i.e. getting a three car garage and in return, he will support their actions even such as these:

israeli cabinet minister`s effi eitam`s solution to the palestenian crisis

``_ _ _ Egypt has to offer the territorial reserves of Sinai for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. The desirable situation is that the residents of Gaza will get territory in Sinai, and will be able to receive citizenship in a sovereign Palestinian state that will be a two-lobed state. Its central lobe will be Jordan, but it will have another lobe in Sinai.``

_ _ _And what will become of the Palestinians in Judea, Samaria and Gaza?

They will be residents without the right to vote. We have to obtain an interim settlement regarding their status. Not on the status of the territory - on their status.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=143671&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

hamidm2 #120 now that you mention it...of course...its that damned goat again. First it ate up all the parts of the Quran that the mullah refers to. I see now that it must have eaten up all the parts of Said`s writing that had stuff other than whining and lying and hot air. This must be the same goat that ate up my manuscript concerning the Unified Field Theory, come to think of it.

But seriously: dont we have enough people on this board who have been avoiding reality like the plague for you to come re-assure them that intellectual integrity is a kaka concept?

hamidm2 #118 While kind of you to offer to send me your only copy, I will settle for the title only: It cant be ``Orientalism`` which I understand has to do with muslim society, not islamic theology. Also, I dropped Orientalism from my reading list after reading Fuzair`s comments on it.

Oh dear....it seems like I was leaving my godforsaken computer screen to actually rejoin the life my friends and fam keep reminding me exists, Tamed, HA!HA!HA! Sahib and PM have been running amok on this board with nary a thought to scrape together. Hamid Bhai, Sameer and friends, this shezadi is tired of having to do all the work. Life isnt the way it used to be when Nani at 13 had to keep house for Nana and all his sisters...but it seems Cinderella in cyberspace must tend to the evil stepmother and stepsisters.... Must I do my work AND your work for you?

PM,

I have some valuable advice for you and your clock....but thats another board. Please go ahead and support Bruce`s claims. Knock yourself out. HA!HA!HA! Sahib will support you in his sneaky and covert way that makes generalizations about Islam. Buy each other drinks and go on double dates with...um...okay, I am stopping myself here from making another nasty remark....

Tahmed,

I must say I am quite surprised at your attitude. But you`ve defended your right to not read any cogent and relevant material with the tenacity of Tammy Faye Baker at a Mary Kay Cosmetics and Tupperware brunch. That in itself is an acheivement. Of sorts.

Is Sameer, Mantolives, or anyone who HAS read Said around?

tahmed,

............ when i was talking about intellectual integrity i was not talking about scientists in white cats working with white mice in labs ............ although they have also been known to fake their results , but by and large they are on the up and up .............i was talking about real ``intellectuals`` who sit around contemplating their navel and coming up with ``opinions`` on everything from god to gun control..............let`s not call common thieves with no intellect whatsoever intellectually dishonest - they are just petty criminals .......... on the other hand there are people who leave out six chapters and then claim a goat ate them ................. you get the drift ........

tahmed,

............. he wrote a whole book in defense of islam .... the book should have been called ``covering up islam`` ............it should be a good aide for any unashamed apologist for islam - i can send you my copy ........

TAhmed you are digging a bigger hole for yourself every day.
Medication peh hai kya?