Sex and the Saudi

Ref. #32,#42

Interesting comments by both.
Though I am analytical mathematician ( hobby) ,have some interest in statistics. Some times I use standard calculator to look at things for distribution. Out of curiosity decided to analysis the enemy side.
I took data published by Bharat Rakshka about deaths of died soldiers and officers of Indian Army in Kargil Jihad skirmishes.
This was good data to use( name of each dead soldier was given, age and address
and including surviors- like father(non married),wife(if married). It was given openly as they felt their people will send help. And it appears they acknoledge of help offered by people)
So I think data is representative.

I found almost the death amoung soldiers was following the distribution of population, like UP, Bihar, maharatha state, etc...
Exception was bengal and Gujrat not dead proportional to population. ( Bengalies are more Babu type log and may not have interest in defence, and Gujrathi being similar to sindhis both business oriented. South states lead by tamilnadu, Andhra, Karnataka and keral. Their contribution was proportional to demography( considered all major states in study). Then I compred both by standard , binomial and poission distribution and the curve were within normal range. There were analmolies like nagaland(highter counts) , Hariyana(higher), goa(low), delhi state(low). As above state have very small population compared to UP, Maratha state, Bihar so it should not give wrong representation.

( Students of staticstics knows why different cureves are used, but with disregard I compared to all three)

Conclusion: Indian army is representative of India ( there are no distortions)

Our Pakistani army is dominent Punjabi and Pathan. It sis because people like some vocations traditionally and they are good in that.

I am a student of mughal empire. Yes Marathas are or can be termed as Martial ( with whatever its pretensions). They are southern Afghans but more cultured and more sofisrcated. From 1680 Marathas rose as volcano. ( It s a puzzle why they got so inspired to fight Mughals, once they started fighting with Alamgir they fought till Mughal empire was practically destroyed. First 20 years with commanders of Alamgir(mostly Rajputs) then Alamgir started for maratha destruction faught for 28 years in maratha country ( in first 14 months he captured all maraths forts and military bases, which rajput were nnot able to do for 20 years.) And declared victory and even Pune was given name of his son. Maraths made helpless heavy artillery and started looting mughal areas. They began to loot places like Barhanpur 6 times in year. whlie Mughal army stationed in Maratha country they just slipped where mughal army was not there. Always keeping in contact with mughal armies but refusing to fight ( Chanakya said one of way to defeat enemy to abstain from battlefield and refuse fight and fight wherer you want). But at same time circling huge garrision of Mughal army. Cuttting at every possible way arriving tired new soldiers and supplies from north. In 28 years of Alamgir chasing but not a single major ``battle``. Field marshall Montegomery wrote about Maraths . Marathas have brains to plan strategic mobility games and strong wrists to carry out plans. Mughal were so insensed by Maratha`s they began to call them ``Pahadke Chuhe``- Mountain rats. Mountain rats knew how to kill big army. They were adopt useing local horses called `` Bhimthaddi`` Tattos. There are light horse but fast and better to climb mountains and they eat less. Big mughal forces could not get sufficient grass in dry lands of Marathas. In fast action, lightening attacks Mughal artillery was useless in fact burden. Maratha warrier were lightly loaded , they are small stature people extremely cunning people. I always wonder why they rose so strongly ( most hisotrian say it enigma). I feel that maratha saints and specially Guru of Shivaji Saint Ramadasi may be reason as he gave muscular philosophy to fight and finish Mughals. He asked to stop worshipping but take arms and follow Kshatrya Rama hindu king. Thais Ramadasibuwa was a marathi brahmin.

1957 was also led by marathas by peshavas and his brilliant servant, clerk Tantya tope. Tantaya tope a maratha Brahmin can be considered best tactician produced in subcontinrnt. He was commander ,broke connection(of east India company) between calcutta and Delhi after 1810 first time. ( Zansi queen was a maratha brahmin). Specially students (military history) will astonished that after devastating defeat at Kanpur crossring ganges with small army he went coliecting ragtag army went to Gwalior and attacked Fort and Kicked marata proenglish warlord and put that army to fight next one year. It was a loosing battle from start but a courage and conviction and intelligence. British letter made special units of 20,000 to chase and capture, they captured Tatya and Raosahib Peshava and hanged both.

Sage marathas understand they can not overpower British power they started their rat business, reformation, resistance in more refined way. Around 1880 maratha brahmin Tilak started Roaring against British empire with is news paper ``kesari``. I have visite maratha state some times. They are very smart and sofistacated, pro hindu and nationalist. They are not just martial ( like gurlkas, Punjabi . rajputs..) , In fact you may not feel them martial, they know strong hands needs brain, cunning, always unsatisfied , irritating people with long view. A maratha ruler will start sindhu diversion not any other. My feeling is they are most dangerous people to pakistan after all they demolished Mughal emire and make emperor a puppet of them from 1730 to 1810 . ( Maraths were defeated at in outskrit of delhi by comnany and emperior became english puppet).

I wrote this detail as amoung martial race they were not mentioned initially. Most of our people do not know as we are not given access to real history ( distored over that) and danger of Marathas.

Fuzair:

You are correct insofar as military as choice of vocation is concerned. My point of the Indian Army disproving the Martial Race theory lies in the fact that the Army has successfully raised regiments amongst earstwhile non martial races such as Mahars, Grenadiers etc and they have acquitted themselves in battle. That is ofcourse as far as the present is concerned.

However, even in the past, it is a fact that Bengal Army constituted the majority of the East India Company`s armed manpower. The Bengal Army was constituted of men recruited from Awadh, Bihar and Bengal. It was only post 1857 that the concept of Martial races was formally introduced and was based on reliability of troops rather than actual valor.

The points you make though about choice of Armed Forces as an honorable and in demand profession amongst certain communities more than others does hold true. I think the same is the case in Pakistan where Chakwal supplies a disproportionate amount of manpower though the Pathans may like to think themselves as more warlike.

Re: Pakistan`s martial races

Many come from the Salt Range region. There is a reason why they all join the Army! There`s nothing else to do!

The Anglo-Nepalese Wars predated the Indian Mutiny by several decades (i.e., 1810s) and Gurkha troops were used by the British to put down the Mutiny. Quite right that post-Mutiny, the Martial Race theory was used to justify removing the last of the Hindustani troops from the Army. This quite ignores the fact that it was these non-Martial troops who beat the Afghans, the Punjabi Sikhs (and associated Muslim troops), the Mahrattas, the Rajputs and the Gurkhas! This was in keeping with the prevalent British Victorian view that urban/educated/civilized/settled Indians were debauched and decadent while the ``hardy`` mountainmen (Pathans, Gurkhas, Dogras) and ``hardy`` peasant sons of the soil (PMs, Sikhs, Rajputs, Mahrattas) lived a cleaner and less debauched life and so made good soldiers. And the rest is history.

Stuka:
While there is of course nothing in the Martial Races theory as such, isn`t it still the case that the Indian Army is disproportionately ``martial?`` It is only Centrally imposed quotas that keep the Army representative of India as a whole, instead of it being, basically, a ``Martial`` army. I recall reading in the Indian press recently that while Haryana is 2% of the population, it provides 10% of the IA`s manpower. And the Sikhs have long complained that recruiting quotas keep them out of the Army: for every Sikh vacancy, there are several applicants while many South Indian quotas go unfilled. Many non-Martials simply do not see the IA as a viable/desirable career choice while many Martials see it as an honourable calling. An uncle of mine, very Martial, really does believe that PMs make better soldiers than, say, Sindhis because there is such a long tradition of soldiering in the Five Districts that new recruits come already half-socialized into the Army`s ethos. He also agrees that they come knowing all the dodges and malingering that marks the old soldiers!

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Urstruly:

Your #35 betrays such an appalling lack of knowledge about economics and finance that I am left completely speechless. You have simply no idea at all what ``petrodollars`` are and how they work. I would seriously suggest a basic course in economics before you right something like this again!

urstruly #39 the situation in the middle east is indeed grave. i for one am more concerned about the welfare of our own (pakistani poor people, about whom i keep ranting about), most of whom live way below the standard of living of the average palestinian.

The arabs had enough chances and have blown them themselves: for a hundred years before 1948, palestinian landowners sold land to jewish settlers well aware of the fact that their fellow palestinian tenants would then be evicted. In 1948 and 1967 the arabs had two chances when they had overwhelming military strength compared to israelis - and lost due to their own carelessness and overconfidence.

Today, the israelis are far stronger militarily relative to Arabs compared to 1967. Not only are they far stronger in conventional weapons, and in smart weapons which they didnt have in 1967, but they are also considered to have over 20 nukes. If a full scale existential war were to break out today in the middle east, and if israelis were to start playing by Hamas rules of deliberately attacking civilians, it would take the israelis less than a day to wipe out the palestinians, and a few days more to overcome the rest of the surrounding arab countries.

The arabs can keep dreaming of throwing the israelis out to see, but that is all they can do. Its not going to happen. Killing of a few civilians in a bus every few days does nothing to reduce the military strength of israel.

Indeed injustice was done to palestinians in 1948 - but not to the absentee landlord palestinian who happily sold off the land and moved to a better life around the world. As for the palestinian tenants: As i said, i am more concerned with the pakistani poor people (including tenants who are at the mercy of pakistani landlords in sindh). 50 years of having the world revolve around their bloody problems is enough - there are far bigger problems facing the world, and far bigger problems facing hundreds of millions of people across the world - and these are problems of poverty, for which the solution lies not in blowing civilian buses but in educating people and learning to live in peace.

Mukhlis #32: Yes, Marathas were the other one. So out of the total, Gurkhas ended up in Nepal. Sikhs, Rajputs, and Marathas ended up in India. Pathans ended up in Pakistan. And Punjabis ended up mostly in Pakistan and partially in India. So, most of the Martial races actually ended up in India.

I am not sure whether the demographics are still the same in the Indian military, but in the Pakistan military, they are still about the same, at the troop/sepoy level. I would guess around 75% or so of the soldiers (non-officers) in the Army come from the five districts I mentioned.

You will rarely see a non-officer from Karachi (except in the Navy). This is because, people from Karachi are not interested in becoming soldiers. Due to the amount of money floating around the Karachi economy, a person in Karachi can make more money driving a cab or setting up a small shop, than he would as a soldier. You will see a lot of officers from Karachi though.

It is all economics. People who can make money as businessmen rarely go into the military. I assume the area that constituted the Martial race area had little industry and even agricultural to employ the population.

re hamidm

`more civilized than the bedouins, bantus and bengalis.`

It is the civility that you demean that keeps me from expanding that list by adding several other South Asian nationalities including your own.

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If Arabs are providing free healthcare to their population then they cannot be exploitative and if they are exploitative then they would not provide free health care
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sorry for the interruption.... but the above is absurd..... you can exploint on a 1001 ways.. and still provide healthcare... and get a fake certificate form URSTRULY...

tahmad

you are not grasping the gravity of the situation. The WWI started just by the assassination of one person. Now if you look at the situation around the globe and especially in the middle east you will see that the cauldron is set right on the bonfire, and this cauldron is filled with kerosene oil.

urstruly #34 So, you see a third world war brewing. Urstruly (and who else?) vs. the world?

urstruly,

.......... your argument that the west is rich because of colonialism and exploitation of the third world is silly ........... which countries did norway, sweden and finland colonize ????? ................. and what explains the fact that poland, hungary and other eastern european countries are more civilized than the bedouins, bantus and bengalis ............... the think it is genetic ..........

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arjun

Your reply betrays the original premis of your earlier posts and even this article; If Arabs are providing free healthcare to their population then they cannot be exploitative and if they are exploitative then they would not provide free health care to their population or build universities, or highways, or hospitals, or provide clean water to each household or build commerce centers etc.; wouldn`t they? You cannot eat cake and have it too.

But the matter is not that simple.

Let me enlighten you a bit on the concept of petro-dollars. Petro-dollars are like those visa or mastercards that are connected to your debit account (instead of usual credit account). If you have such account you are restricted to withdraw only a certain amount per day from your account even though all the money is yours. You can only use your visa card at the stores that accept Visa card. A western country X for eaxmple imports 1 billion dollars worth of oil in a certain period of time. The computer that maintains the account adds 1 billion dollars to your account as numbers - that 1 billion dollar may practically do not exist. Those 1 billion dollars may even not be printed yet. So the net effect of this transaction is that a commodity has changed hands but associated wealth hasn`t.

Let me make it simpler than that: Suppose you go to a grocery store and buy groceries; then you tell the cashier that you will keep his money but pick up groceries. You also tell him that you would only give him a certain part of his money but not the whole amount. And you do it over and over again. In order to keep the cashiers mouth shut you bribe him with a miniscule part of this deal which cashier uses to buy hookers and what not; you also provide some extra cash to the cashier so that he keeps the business running. AS long as this cashier is not audited he doesn`t get caught. Also suppose that the owner of that store is an invalid old lady who is made totally dependent by this cashier. So the cashier keeps on doing it and doing it until one day the lady starts feeling better and able and demands the audit.

Now take this paradigm and apply it onto SA. That customer is the West, the cashier is the Saudi Shahs and the old invalid lady is the Saudi people. The lady raelizes that cashier as corrupt and culpable may be, does not have any of her money. The actuall money is still owed by the customer. And when that old lady demands that all the wealth that the customer owes be returned the customer tells the old lady that he wouldn`t because she has a bad religion, which teaches intolerance.

tahmad

you are argumentative at best but least factual. If we use your logic we can also say that the Western countries wouldn`t have been so rich had there not been the so called third world countries. If there were no third world countries, West could not colonize them or could steel their resources and get rich and advance in technology like they have now. I am pretty sure that you would not want to extend your logic here. right? so lets keep the discussion objective and to the point. shall we? This is a serious matter since we are facing the prospects of a global deadly third world war here. The first phase of this war has already been declared and commenced. Stop seeing the third world war through the paradigm of first two. It is better for all of us.

Very well written article, and enjoyed reading it. I visited saudi arabia a few times in connection with work, and i thought they as individuals they were an easy going people, and some were quite good humored. The driver assigned to drive me around seemed a bit unhappy, until someone said that it could be because i was a lowly pakistani and the driver was a saudi (yes, all saudis are not rolling in wealth). So i made an effort to lift the poor chap`s spirits, and soon we were great chums and he even taught me basic arabic while driving around jeddah.
The achilles heel of the saudis remains lack of interest in education i think. Jeddah was loaded with shops carrying perfumes and other luxury items, but there was no book store in sight in the city. Heathrow airport probably has more bookstores than all of saudi arabia combined. Even Rawalpindi saddar bazaar probably has more bookstores and street-side book vendors than all of saudi arabia. A people who dont respect education can never prosper, no matter how much oil they have.


urstruly #29 so you say that the west sucked the saudis dry and their per capita income fell from 27,000 in the 1970`s to 7,000 today. you forget that before the west started buying oil from saudi arabia, the per capita income was 300-400 for the saudis. and you also forget that before the west started buying oil from saudi arabia, the west discovered oil in saudi arabia. If the saudis had been wise, the would have sought to diversify beyond oil, starting in the 1970`s. Instead, they took their prosperity for granted. And thus repeated the same mistake as the Nigerians (who also went from oil wealth to poverty because they misused their money to buy luxury items - even the furntiture of the rich in the 1970`s in nigeria used to be imported from europe).

Romair, I believe the 5th so-called ``martial race`` as defined by the English were Marathas.

During my stay in Saudi Arabia from the early to lates 80s, one could still see racism against South Asians even if the per-capita income at that time was much higher than what it is now. But it seemed like children were more active with the racial slurs than elders. Elder Saudis would try to stop the kids if they heard them uttering racist remarks.

My encounter with educated Saudis was also different. They were as polite and respectful as any other people from any other country.

By the way, there are places in Saudi Arabia where women can (or at least used to) drive. One such place was the ARAMCO colony area in Dhahran. But those women were mostly foreigners.

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