The changing face of America

veeresh #167 (yawn) latest absurdity from you is that my saying ``I don`t have the time to waste with you`` is an insult.

This is a statement of fact, not an insult. (Yawn).

next absurdity please ...

tahmed 32 # 166 - when you run out of logic, you move to insults, right? ``I don`t have the time to waste with you`` is the best response when I ask you to explain a simple thing. Being condescending is equal to ignorance, right?

So. WHY is it that you, and some other educated people, will shed tears for Muslims in India . . . but ignore the realities facing Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Afghanistan?

Let me answer it, then, since you`ve chosen to not have the time . . .

a) because you don`t consider Muslim women to be Muslim enough.
b) because you don`t consider Muslims from some countries to be Muslim enough.
c) because you don`t consider Muslims who are from other sects Muslim enough.

So, point fingers at Gujarat. Point fingers at Indians across the board from your sanctimonious perch.

Now if I tell you what are facts, that so many of those killed in Gujarat were women who are treated like cattle in Islamic countries, so many of them were people from other States or countries who are treated like c/r/a/p in Islamic countries, so many of them were from sects which Islamic countries wouldn`t recognise . . . would you like to qualify your statement a bit to something like ``what is happening to people who may or may not be Muslims in Islamic countries is now happening to them in India also``, and that is sad, needs to be fixed?

Let us bring this discussion back to an even playing fiel, without you picking and choosing phrases - are Muslims treated better in India than in Pakistan (no response from you), Kuwait (no response from you), Saudia (no response from you) or USA implication Guantanamo Bay (again no response from you).

I say yes Indians including Muslims are treated better in India than they are in Saudia, Kuwait, Pakistan and USA = Guantanamo Bay. And I think the deafening silences from the usual rabid gangs on this board say something.

Ignore away, interim, as a Muslim resident of the US, what have you done to improve the lot of non-terrorist Muslims in Islamic countries?

veeresh #163 Your evasion with reality is becoming quite extreme now: you actually compare the murder of innocent families in Gujarat with the incarceration of comabatants in Guantanamo? This is an insult you are adding to the injury of the innocent people killed in Gujarat. As a muslim resident of the US, I am very glad the US is taking strong action against terrorists, even if they claim to be muslims. I only wish the Pakistan government would have the moral fibre to do the same to terrorists in pakistan, and the Indian government would have the moral fibre to do the same to the murderers of muslim families in Gujarat. I wont say it is an affront to truth, because that seems to not concern you.

I wont go further down your post because i dont have the time to waste with you. But you write me another post coming up with another absurdity, and I will again point it out to you and ignore the rest of your post.

the correct question is - would muslims be better off in any country other than india with the same set of parameters (pre-partition history of india, the partition in `47, creation of pakistan as a neighbor and its continued hostile actions, communal conflicts..majority of those initiated by muslims themselves)?

i think muslims would be treated worse in any country other than india...and that includes usa, canada, etc.

#159 Stuka

I accept your point that tahmed32 was quoting a rather strange passage from Veeresh (actually he modified it to be more general: minorities have it best in India, which is not the exact quote).

However, in no way does that reduce my belief that people who insist on comparing India to Sweden and Canada are indulging in silly propaganda. What kind of nonsensical comparison is this? Here we have a relatively democratic (yes, I am well aware of Gujarat and 1984 and Kashmiri pandit murders), relatively open country bordered by the most offensive tyrranies known to man:

China (brutal authoritarian state which has repeatedly practiced mass murder of its own citizens and minorities)
Pakistan (unique islamist-military dictatorship which supports worldwide terror)
Myannmar (hardline military dictatorship)

AND the main problem in the region is INDIA !! What kind of joke is this?

If people are serious about improving demcracy in South Asia then let us look at the region as a whole. If people are serious about rating indian democracy, then let us compare it to peers such as Turkey, Brazil, South Africa.

tahmed 162 . . . ok, let me start all over again:-

FORGIVE ME FOR ALL CAPS. I AM NOT SHOUTING. I CAN HARDLY RESTRAIN THE LAUGHTER THOUGH.

#90 by veeresh on October 12, 2003 2:38am PT
This article and the subsequent interacts brings out a few things which need to be stated in Black & White here:-

OBSERVATIONS.

a) Muslims and others seem to be treated better in the US than in Saudi Arabia, but they are treated the best in India.

THIS IS TRUE. IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE OBLIQUE REFERRENCE TO GUANTANAMO BAY VERSUS SAUDIA ARABIA WHICH IS LIKE A PERPETUAL LEASE TO USA, WHAT CAN I DO?

b) People want chocolates on the tray while flying, but will not buy them before boarding.

THIS IS TRUE.

c) Saudi Arabia`s economy is built around the Hajj, and they will not let that go, while in other religions you can have multi-location centres.

THIS IS TRUE.

d) Queen Latifa and Chaka Khan are not Muslim enough for more than a few other Muslims, worldwide. Nor is Mohamed Ali the boxer.

WHY DO WE IGNORE MUSLIMS OF AFRICAN DESCENT IN OUR VARIOUS HISSABS?

e) Everybody cries about a few hundred Muslim prisoners in Guantama Bay/Cuba, incuding latest the BBC, but nobody cares about the thousands including Muslims who dis-appear regularly in the jails of the Middle East Arabic countries.

(THERE ARE 5000 PAKISTANI MUSLIMS PRISONERS IN SAUDI JAILS ON DATE, KNOWN. HOW MANY MORE HAVE VANISHED WE DON`T KNOW)

+++
Sorry tahmed32, you and your TNT Godhra/Gujarat/Babri theories vanish in the face of the bandobast at Faizabad/Ayodhya earlier today. They vanish in the face of all the arguments offered by me.

Sorry about that.

veeresh #161 so, your latest cover-up attempt is to refer to what you said as ``sarcastic tongue in cheek reference `` on your part and ``pot shots`` at india by others. and some more preaching about muslim countries this and that.

i did not take any pot shots at india (and please cut and paste what i wrote if you think i did), and your boast about india being ``best`` in the world in treatment of muslims was not tongue in cheek.

i await your next coverup attempt...

tahmed32 post 157 - I personally view this constant barrage aimed at India on blots like Gujarat and Babri as an attempt by certain segments from the Muslims owing their allegiance to specific sects within the Islamic countries.

I see that yu, tahmed32, choose to ignore my sarcastic tongue in cheek reference to Saudi Arabia and USA in the same line, so maybe I should have spelt it out to you: - better than the following uSAs - Saudi Arabia (Aramco, USA), Kuwait (replacement for Subic Bay, USA), Pakistan (wannabe USA), Guantamo Bay (non USA permanent perpetual lease territory).

Now, from these US territories, their Islamic leaders take potshots at India and Indian Muslims. And I state, again and again, that Indians including Indian Muslims have it ``best`` out of these.

In this context, I asked you to define Muslim. You did, thank you. Here it is: ````a muslim is simply someone who believes in one God and considers the prophet muhammed to be A (emphasis added) messenger of God. ````


Now take that definition, and please tell me what percentage of Muslims will be better off if they :-

a) Try to get a visa to do the Hajj versus try to visit Ajmer / Hazrat Nizamuddin.

b) Have access to a common legal system in Kuwait versus India?

c) Openly declare their faith to different branches of Islam in Pakistan versus India?

d) Aim for the highest posts in Government, Business in Saudi Arabia versus the same in India, assuming they are citizens of the respective countries?

Re-arrange these any way you want, you get the drift?

And finally, I know everybody is reading poor Edward Said after he`s dead, but (e) how many Islamic Countries give anything more than lip service to Palestinian Refugees versus India?


+++

Mobs are mobs, and lose definition. I learnt this from family accounts of 1947, after some time it becomes contents of steel trunk and fair women. Sorry, but that`s the truth.

+++

It is about time Islam looked within. Otherwise it will keep whining about not getting chocolates on an aeroplane headed for the US, while denying bread to its own ``back home``.

stuka 158 - my context to the treatment of Muslims in the USA was done with a sarcastic reference to Saudi Arabia as a ``non-territory`` of USA (similar to Guatanamo Bay, on perpetual lease), and I am quite sure tahmed32 also realises and knows that. Please grant me the strength of my convictions, as well as knolwedge of ground realities, in as much as the ``real`` USA is concerned?

dost-mittar 157 - sirji, a certain percentage of people will always be discontented. Minorities have the benefit of blaming it on being a minority. My ground view and not just of business leaders is that India is going through a phase where enterprise has its own rewards. Doling out favours to the majority by a government would be fine if it was the government that held the fiscal reins. Here everything is being privatised, the small businessperson never had it so good . . . where is the question of being discriminated if it is your brains and hands that make your future>

PMishra:

``you make fake claims of India being the ``best`` in the world when it comes to treatment of minorities.
[end-quote]

Who has made this silly claim? Why should India be held to such an absurdly high standard? ``


Ahemmyou should have done some reading of the original posts before calling TAhmed Goebbelsian LOL!!

Veeresh:

(I am and was not comparing any of ``our`` countries with the West.)


Okay. I will take your word for it, though your original statement did not lead to that understanding. I do not know about grassroots in the other countries and will therefore not argue with you. I took exception on the basis of USA, Canada etc.

Veeresh#150
I am quite aware of the internecine fights among the sikhs during the 80s, especially the bloody feuds between the two groups lodged in the Golden temple led by Bhindrawalle and another by a Kirtani jatha led by a woman whose body was cut into several pieces by Bhindrawalle`s followers. But there was nothing new in this. The sikhs have been fighting among themselves since the time of the Sikh misals. But they were always able to forget their differences and come together to fight the common enemy. The events of 1984 presented that comon enemy.
I know that India is on the march and we all rejoice in it. I am also aware that ranbaxis, ciplas, wipros and zodiacs led by minorities are among the leaders in this march. But this does not mean that the sikhs and the muslims in general are quite contented in India or that their grievances are not qualitatively different from the grievances of others.

pmishra #151 you ask `` Who has made this silly claim? ``

veeresh. see my post #145 where I cutandpaste from his post #90 which he now denies writing.

I see you then proceed to attribute this ``silly claim`` to me. You can call me names too. That is all fine.

It gives me no joy to see veeresh avoiding truth. At least he is not as bloody minded as you are.

You on the other hand are a good example of the hate-filled thakeray crowd I never would have believed existed until I came to chowk. So, please dont try to engage me in further discussions. I wont lower myself into calling you names, but I have enough time to waste to keeping exposing your bs.

#144 Veeresh writes:
yes, there is and has been for the last few years now an ongoing illegal immigration of farm labour from Pakistan into India. It is an open secret. Into Rajasthan, Punjab and even Kutch.


The reality is quite different. 2 million Indians, Bangladeshis and Burmese are living illegaly in Karachi.

``Owing to the scale and diversity of the immigrant population, estimates of its size and composition remain rough. In Karachi, the largest segment – about 1.3 million – hails from Bangladesh, while totals from Africa, Burma and India reach into the hundreds of thousands``.

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