The changing face of America

#144 Veeresh writes:
Romair # 140 - yes, there is and has been for the last few years now an ongoing illegal immigration of farm labour from Pakistan into India. It is an open secret. Into Rajasthan, Punjab and even Kutch.

Thank you for raising the issue of illegal immigration of Indians and Bangladeshis into Pakistan.

Owing to the scale and diversity of the immigrant population, estimates of its size and composition remain rough. In Karachi, the largest segment – about 1.3 million – hails from Bangladesh, while totals from Africa, Burma and India reach into the hundreds of thousands.

Karachi’s two million immigrants face a government crackdown

#148 tahmed32 (a.k.a propaganda guru)

In keeping with your goebellsian skills, you claim:

[quote]
you make fake claims of India being the ``best`` in the world when it comes to treatment of minorities.
[end-quote]

Who has made this silly claim? Why should India be held to such an absurdly high standard? Will you also be holding other nations in the region to this standard?

You are also the author of the silly comparision that Sweden and Canada treat their minorities better than indian. On being informed that this was a breathtakingly bizarre comparison, you have been silent. Now you are back with your bizarre illogic.

Why don`t you compare India to peer democracies like Turkey and Brazil? Otherwise, be exposed as a propagandist.

dost-mittar 149 . . . agreed there is a gap larger than the Rajamachi Game Sanctuary in the Western Ghats between the Constitution of India and its implementation. Not just with minorities, but with evrything.

But Sir, I think over the last few yeas, maybe decade or so, in some parts of the country, things do seem to be improving.

Now, on Sikhs - and here one is from the typical Punjabi middle-class family, enough Hindus and Sikhs (and others) in the family orbits.

Tell me honestly - in your opinion - and I used to go to Amritsar to buy machinery at one time in ``those`` days - were the Sikh problems in Punjab in the `80s as much to do with internal Sikh religion + political intrigue as they were with anything else?

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As for political alignments between the BJP and Akali Dal and whatever . . . isn`t that so much of tweedle-dee-dee and tweedle-dee-dum? I am sure you know about how some families manage to have ``controling`` interests in both the BJP & Congress, (or Akali Dal & Congress in Punjab) . . . or whichever formations exist in whichever state? Do you and I really expect any sort of ``support`` from such political formations?

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The simple truth is that there is a groundswell of progress in India, moving independent of political or religious affiliation. It was there at one time only within the Upper Classes, say 50 years ago. Today, it is increasingly moving through the middle classes and even faster through the aspiring lot, be they in slums or small towns.

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A certain percentage of people will always be disgruntled. Whether they are Hindus, SIkhs or Muslims in India. And a certain percentage of people will be ``non``-disgruntled. I think the percentages remain the same; I have no data to back it up.

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tahmed32, you have still not been able to explain the term ``Muslim`` to this board, properly, in the context of the Gujarat dead or the Babri mosque. Well here is something for you to chew on - in some Islamic countries, the Gujrat dead or the Babri mosque would not have been Muslim. Right?

Pardesi, dullahbhatti, stuka:
Your posts make for a depressing reading. Veeresh is right to the extent that India has probably the best constitutional guarantees for the protection of minorities but there is a gap larger than the grand canyons when it comes to ground realities.
One normally doesn`t think in this manner but sikhs actually are more on their own in India than the muslims. The muslims can at least count on the support of several other muslim countries with whom India has strong trade and economic relations and whose concerns can be completely ignored by the Indian leadership. This is not so re. sikhs. One would have thought that the sanghi brigade which sings paens to hindu-sikh brotherhood day and night would have shown more sensitivity towards sikh feelings. It takes `geniuses` to turn the most loyal and patriotic people into a disgruntled group, but the bania-brahmin combine has somehow accomplished this task.

veeeresh #147 you write ``No, I don`t give up, because I am fed up of people bringing up Gujarat and Babri as some sort of albatross around my Indian neck. ``

When I said ``you dont give up`` in my post below, it should have been clear to you that I left a word unsaid. You will note that I posted two lines from you, one from something you wrote in your original post, and one from your latest post where you claim you never wrote what you wrote. What could that word be? I wonder...

my sympathies on people bringing up Gujarat when you make fake claims of India being the ``best`` in the world when it comes to treatment of minorities.


I didnt read the rest of your post. When someone treats simple facts (i.e. in at least accepting he wrote what anyone can see he wrote) so lightly as you do, as you have done in your latest post, then I am no longer concerned with his views on anything else.

No, I don`t give up, because I am fed up of people bringing up Gujarat and Babri as some sort of albatross around my Indian neck. We have an open country, the media is able to report on such blots, and we try our best to install correctives. That is far more than what I can say about the Islamic Countries and their treatment of Muslims in their countries.

So, I drive past the Kirkee Bazaar in Pune everyday, and outside the Bombay Engineers Group, I see the beauty of a church, temple, mosque and gurudwara in close proximity sharing walls, each with its own architectural and ethereal beauty, and I say, why should I give up? I have a point of view, and I am convinced it is correct, and increasingly more people are convinced it is correct too. (The synagogue is not too far away, but since there aren`t that many Jews left in Pune, it is used more for television and movie shoots . . .)

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tahmed 32 # 145 - assume Saudi Arabia is a colony of the US, in as much as nothing much the Rulers can do there without US participation, right? Please read the slightly sarcastic reference in that context.

Now, get back to the main point - which even the OIC in Malaysia is currently getting around to agree to today - that Muslims in parts of the ``Muslim world`` are not really treated properly by single-focus Islamic rulers. Let me specifically say it again, both as a generalisation / perception, and quantify it whatever way you choose - Muslims are treated better in India than in Pakistan / Saudia / Kuwait, just to name a few countries.

Because they are Indians. Because in India we try not to have a gender bias. We try not to have a religious bias. We may not be the best perfect success, but at least we have laws that let people try?

What do Islamic countries have? Hudood for women? 50% of the Muslim population is considered sub-human, and you are trying to play semantic win-win games with me?

Wahhabis, Ahmedis, Dawoodi Bohras, Shias, Sunnis, Sufis, Ismailis, nobody is cursed from the Najd in India. Not by the State.

You understand now, I hope?

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The day the educated Muslims with a world-view realise that their own petty Islamic leaders have been making a monkey out of them, that by making, fooling, educated people like you focus on Gujarat and Babri, that your own Islamic leaders hide bigger sectarian pogroms and gender based killings, that it does not require cunning Hindu banias to cause Muslims to remain backward when lumpen elements and mullahs themselves will question and block most attempts to take a community forward . . . that day, tahmed32, I will give up.

Veeresh #90 writes ``Muslims and others seem to be treated better in the US than in Saudi Arabia, but they are treated the best in India. ``

54 posts and numerous reminders later...

Veeresh #144 writes ``I am and was not comparing any of ``our`` countries with the West.``

You never give up, do you.

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Romair # 140 - yes, there is and has been for the last few years now an ongoing illegal immigration of farm labour from Pakistan into India. It is an open secret. Into Rajasthan, Punjab and even Kutch.

Also, all religions can be interpreted in different ways, and that is the beauty of some religions, where a joyful and forgiving ``God`` permits this.

I think Islam had enough countries with opportunities to get into the First World. The oil countries couldn`t make the grade. The Levant/Med moved so fast that the West was threatened and Israel entered as factor ``X``. In the ASEAN countries, some Muslim countries are moving up. But then, what is a Muslim country? At some point, the state and the religion have to part ways for growth and progress, and that is a fact. Because religion encourages status quo, if left in control, while the State does not. That is the nature of the beast, right?

Stuka/Dulla Bhatti and tahmed32 . . . I say and I say again, and I maintain and I also ask you to come down to grassroots . . . Muslims in India are treated best out of Muslims in Islamic countries like Pakistan, Kuwait, Saudia. For too long have we in India been beaten with a stick over episodes / blots like Babri/Gujarat, while the real perpetuators of crimes against Muslims are countries which are called ``Islamic . . .`` If you want generalisations and perceptions, fine, go walk about in Kuwait or Saudia or Pakistan as a Muslim with a line of thought even slightly at variation with the one prevailing/ruling thought. And if you want numbers, hard facts, then start by defining a Muslim in Pakistan, a Muslim in India, a Muslim in Saudia and a Muslim in Kuwait.

In India, I know of no law or definition that is legally tenable that removes women from equal status in Islam. I know of no law or definition that removes the various sects and sub-sects from equal status in islam. Forget all that, the option of a common civil code is available by choice to everybody including Muslims.

Can anybody say the same about Pakistan or Kuwait or Saudi Arabia?

(I am and was not comparing any of ``our`` countries with the West.)

re: pardesi

{PPS: Go Yankees! No one should man-handle 72 year olds!!!! }

...agreed...and no man headed to the hall of fame should be hitting batters every year no matter what team they are from (aka rodger clemens)....

Stuka # 139

``I care as Indian citizen ...``

Thanks. You are a very decent Indian.

I have been in USA for over 3 decades.

Regards.

PS: My 4 day weekend is over. No more posts from me on this topic :).
PPS: Go Yankees! No one should man-handle 72 year olds!!!!

shankar #128: ``A ``mehram``, I`m assuming, is a male escort. Why is it ``haram`` to perform Umra alone?
Does anybody have an answer?``

There is no answer to this, or other such similar questions.

Islam is such an abstract religion, that it can be interpreted in a thousand different ways. That to me is its beauty. And that is why, despite complaining about it, very very few Muslims ever leave it. Its abstraction allows all Muslims to find some sort of an interpretation, that fits their thinking. This is why Asif N. is as happy in his Islam as I am in mine and ZahraJ is in hers and Hamidm is in his. It is quite possible all of us look at Islam from different directions, and we may disagree with each other, yet none of us will switch religions, or even consider moving it out of our lives. Even Hamidm for all his tirades against Islam, seems to know far too much about the practices of Muslims in mosques and other Muslims events to indicate that he does participate in them.

I personally think it is quite wrong to demand that a women should have a mehrem. And I could provide you arguments supporting this through my interpretation of Islam. While Asif N. could provide you arguments supporting it through his understanding of the religion. The problems start if try to impose my will on him, or if he tries to impose his will on me.

I think Islam requires one Muslim country to get into the first world. Once that happens, all other Muslim countries will have a role model to follow, and then people will start gelling around some successful practical interpretations of the religion.

``So I was surprised when Romair mentioned that women campaigned for a separate entrance in a mosque.``

I think you may have misread. I don`t think I ever said that women campaigned for a separate entrance in a mosque.

vereesh #119: ``It is my contention that on yardsticks of generalisations as well as numbers, Muslims have it worse in other countries including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Pakistan, than they do in India.``

One could make an argument that minorities have it worse in Pakistan than in India (at least in the pre-BJP days). But to state that Muslims have it worse in Pakistan than in India is a hugely misinformed statement.

If this were the case, there would be a massive illegal immigrant movements of Muslims into India from Pakistan. One doesn`t see that. In fact, Pakistan is the one country that gets a lot of illegal Asian Muslim immigrants coming into it, not going out of it. This includes Bangladeshis and Afghanis.

You can look at the economic statistics and it will become quite clear, that Pakistani Muslims are quite a bit better off than Indian Muslims. Their per-capita income is higher. There participation in the govt. is significantly higher. They hold much higher govt. positions. So on and so forth. Infact the biggest complain one could have against Pakistani Muslims is that they are now so powerful in their country, that they can discriminate against others.

Even in the USA, in my profession, nearly every South Asian Muslim I meet is a Pakistani. I rarely ever have run across an Indian Muslim. While I have across hundreds of Indian Hindus.

You will find the same figures everywhere else. Saying that Muslims in India are better off than Muslims in Pakistan, would be like stating that Hindus in Pakistan are better off than Hindus in India. It is too far-fetched an idea.

Dulla Bhatti:

Excellent post in #136. I echo Pardesi`s comments with one caveat....

``Frankly, no one in India, or elsewhere, cares about how we feel...``

I care. As an individual and an Indian citizen I care.

Also, I feel that what the original Sikh movement was about..would have been..or rather would be..beneficial to India as a whole. Federalism will benefit all, not just Sikhs. Then ofcourse there are issues which are specific to Punjab such as SYL, Chandigarh etc, which would have benefitted all Punajabis though some communities more then others. Unfortunately, all that is in the public memory today is the communal angle, not the real needs which still exist.

Veeresh: I too was startled when you made the claim that Muslims are treated best in the world. In general, minorities are treated much better in the West then they are in India and that includes Muslims. How can you say India treats its Muslims better then the US, where TAhmed, DullaBhatti and I live? Not too sure about Pardesi, where he lives...

Compare the death of one Sikh and the death penalty given to the killer in Arizona to the ``abberations`` that have taken place frequently in 1984, 1992, 2002 etc with no justice for the victims.

Dullabhatti #136

Very concise and accurate picture of the situation that I was trying to describe in so many words in #131 :).

Frankly, no one in India, or elsewhere, cares about how we feel. People do not have time or inclination. For others, it’s over and the sooner we forget, the better.

Hopefully, our people will grow up and rather than trying to be just emotional faujis of India, we will learn to protect our own interests in much smarter ways in the new brave technological world.

Regards.

veresh #134 I made it clear to you a long time ago (post #94) that what I was objecting to was your saying that India has the world`s ``best`` record in treatment of muslims, and I had no need to be defensive of Pakistan`s record. Here is a cut and paste of what I wrote in #94:

``You can compare India to Pakistan and say that at least you have muslims in India while we have very few hindus (with exceptions, like this one chap in the Pakistan cricket team - and dont ask me his name since someone told me the other day and I fogot). But to say that India is the best is going way too far. They dont have mobs attacking muslim family homes in the US (or Europe or Canada or Australia or Thailand or even in any African country) while the governor (like Modi) looks the other way. ``

I see I gave the example of ``few hindus`` left in Pakistan, and you brought up Bangladesh instead: ``address the issues of Muslims in Bangladesh vis-a-vis the heroic West Pakistani Army``. Unlike you, I recognize that a lot of crimes have been committed in the name of Pakistan as well that have gone unpunished. As I have said many times on chowk, it is a disgrace that those individuals (starting with Niazi) within the Pakistan army who attacked civilians were not brought to justice.

Unlike your rosy claims about India, I have no need to hide the truth about Pakistan. Both India and Pakistan are primitive societies when it comes to treatment of the weak and the poor. The sooner the well off people on both sides recognize that fact, the sooner these societies will progress forward.