The changing face of America

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Pardesi 117, thanks.

1) Let us not get diverted, please, from my specific request to tahmed32 on his definition of Muslim. It is my contention that on yardsticks of generalisations as well as numbers, Muslims have it worse in other countries including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Pakistan, than they do in India. I would like tahmed32 to define/choose his yardstick and then we proceed further?

2) 1984, Sikh murders, state apparatus broke down, elements within went to inhuman extents and then within 48-72 hours there were correctives. I know, I was there in Delhi on those dates. And there is complete truth in stating that elements within Sikhs were and are responsible for the lack of legal correctives in connection with 1984 riots, again, I am in Delhi. And being in Delhi does not mean that I am only measuring the distance between white stripes on the road.

3) Safety of Indian minorities on religious lines. I don`t see Parsis feeling threatened. I don`t see Jews getting theatened. I don`t see Buddhists getting threatened. Isolated Staines incident and church robberies in crime prone areas apart, I don`t see Christians getting threatened. I don`t see the Chinese getting threatened. Yes, I do see political noises for religious groupings, but again I also see correctives. Yes, I see the weak and the poor and the illiterate getting threatened, but that is across religious lines. On that ground, if I as a religious leader continue to keep my flock weak and poor and illiterate, and thrust into their brains that co-existence is not good for them, then should I blame another group of people who go forward?

All this is relevant to tahmed32`s definition of ``Muslim`` which I am trying to extract from him. Because it is my humble submission and contention that only a few specific sects within Muslims in India tend to first try to establish a hegemony amongst the Muslims. And that itself is the root of a communcal riot. Frank question to those present here - do you see communal riots in areas where middle class progress overtakes misery? Have you heard of communcal riots in, say, Dharavi or Moradabad, lately, as two examples?

The one communal riot I sat and analysed was one in Delhi in April 1990, very close to my home. As I sifted through the webs and stories, I discovered that the main reason was a war between locals, across religious lines, for control of a kabaadi business in the nizamuddin area. Today Nizamuddin is about as de-segregated as it can get. The mosque sits amidst a thriving business area, including new car dealerships, crematoriums, graveyards, restaurants, exporters . . . and the dharamshala in the area gets into the act renting space around the time of the Urs to all comers.

So?

So, the point to tahmed32 and others is, please let us argue, sure. But if you want to argue on generalisations, let that be th yardstick. And if you want to go into specifics, then so be it too. But to selectively take one . . . is that correct.

I stand by what I say: Muslims are safer in India today than they are in other ``Muslim`` countries. And I will prove it. But first, let us all agree on the definition of ``Muslim``?

ZahraJ #110 Those are kind words from you indeed, and much more generous than deserved. But thanks anyway for your appreciation.

ZahraJ #110 Those are kind words from you indeed, and much more generous than deserved. But thanks anyway for your appreciation.

Stuka #99, Veeresh #100

Economic opportunities are available to everyone in India and all minorities can be, and are, as successful as Hindus. All Indians can take pride in that.

Law and order situation is not as great as in, say USA, on a day-to-day basis and that no one has any problem with. However, when the government itself becomes participant in massacres (as Central government inspired/controlled/directed in case of ‘84 massacres or recently state government did it in Gujrat), that’s where minorities are the ones who suffer most. Gujrati muslims were lucky that operation was not directed by central government and they had some recourse. Poor Sikhs had no one to complain to.

So, yes one can say Muslims are better in India than Hindus in Pakistan, but to say Indian minorities feel same level of security during riots/massacres is fooling the world. It’s better to be honest about it so that we can improve ourselves.

Back to ’84, to imply that legal work against criminals is difficult now since perception is that certain Sikhs support them, is a joke and is nothing but insult to injury.

tahmed #32 . . . look Sir, as I said before, I do not enter into these Indo-Pak Hindu-Muslim f/a/r/t/i/n/g contests, because I refuse to get into generalisations or assumptions. Having said that:-

1) The sole reason for my asking YOU to define Muslims is because I hope to make you understand that YOU cannot assume that all Hindus are the same. If however you wish to play by generalisations, then be assured that everybody in this world has enough in their armouries. Because if we go by your reasoning that India is unsafe for Muslims courtesy acknowledged incidents like Godhra & Babri where some due process of law and public equity is at least attempted to be followed . . . then Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bangladesh and even Pakistan are absolutely unsafe for Muslims since there seems to be absolutely no due process or law or public equity when Muslims are unsafe. Right? I mean, 50% of Muslims = women are absolutely unsafe in Saudi, Kuwait & Pakistan. Add to that the various types of Muslims like Ahmediyas who are simply not allowed to exist. Then consider the Muslims from other non-Pure countries like Pakistan, India, B`desh, Palestine, Ethiopia, even mybe Oman and Yemen, who are simply not considered human in Saudia & Kuwait. Then add the few million dead Bangladeshi Muslims standing up in their graves and wondering why Pakistanis are not asking about their well-being. You get the drift? And then tell me that India is unsfe for Muslims?

2) I am not asking for a theological discussion. I am asking you to try to justify your statement and also asking you to define ``Muslims`` by one yardstick applicable in the beginning to both India and Pakistan, preferably in not more than 100 words. Here is mine : ````A Muslim is a good human being who chooses to follow his intelligent appreciation of the Islamic religion, and shall not get bogged down by the commercial interpretations handed down to Muslims by vested interests.`` (Others may feel free to substitute any religion for Islam as applicable to them).

3) And finally, to the bit about state sponsored killings in India and the US . . . give us a break, go read your basic history.

#111 tahmed32


Yes, I am well aware that you are speechless when confronted with a few facts. Have a good day with your vacuous content-free output !!

re: romair

{One would think that Muslim women would be switching religion, left and right, if they felt as oppressed by Islam, as the critics of Islam point out. }

...or maybe they are scared out of their minds to leave islam....

``20 yr old Muslim women (Sabatina James) from Austria, converted to Christianity and is now living in fear of being murdered by her own family.``

http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/international.cfm?id=1102842003

ZaharJ #102: ``Your post had way too much cynicism and your argument on performing the Hajj is amazingly mind boggling. Do not tell me the next time your parents ask you to jump into a ditch you will do that without a second glance.``

I am not a psychiatrist, but I think one`s values in life are generally influenced by what one is taught by one`s parents. I am a Muslim, because my parents were Muslims. Had they been Hindu, I would have been a Hindu. Parents set one`s priorities early in life, and nearly everyone generally follows them throughout. You want to perform an Umra, more than likely, because you were born to Muslim parents, and through them you learnt about Islam, and this taught you the importance of Umra. In essence you are also want to perform an Umra, because your parents told you it is a good thing to do, indirectly.

In my case, I actually did Hajj because my parents told me it was a good thing to do. I was too young at the time, to have really discovered Islam. It was whatever my parents and friends etc. had taught me. That is why I stated maybe I was too young for it to have counted.

Since then, I have grown older, and I have discovered Islam on my own. And have developed my own ups and downs for it. In fact, I think more people should try to discover it on their own, rather than relying on ulema etc. But, I would have never even have considered Islam an option, had I not been born to Muslim parents. Probably, nor would have most Muslims.

Now my belief in Islam is 100% because I feel it is the right path. If I didn`t feel that way, I would switch religions and forget about Islam (rather than remaining a Muslim, not having the courage to switch religions, and still making fun of it, like many on this site do).

I can understand how my reply could seem cynical. But I think you are mistaking my attempt at humor with cynicism. The gist of what I was saying is:

- I think Hajj is a great thing. I try to look at all Islamic, ``things`` from a practical point of view. If Islam is the true way of life, then its actions have to make sense in a secular or non-Muslim sense also. I think Hajj should be a great social union and gathering of Muslims from all over the world, where they carry out their religious duties and exchange ideas, also, on all subjects. I don`t think its purpose is (or was) to just carry out rituals, and only feel good about carrying out rituals.

- I have a lot of issues against Saudi Arabia (which apparently you do as well). I think Saudis at a social level are a racist society - even for South Asian men. I think at a political level, they are autocratic rulers, and are using their wealth to create problems for Muslims all over the world. Whatever little or great racism Pakistanis may start feeling in the USA, will have nothing to do with what the Pakistanis did (even illegal immigrant Pakistanis in USA are successful). It will because of what Saudis have done.

Based on this, I think, during the current time, Saudi Arabia being the, ``center`` of Islam is a liability to Islam. It wasn`t a liability during the early days of Islam. But it is now. That is why I said I have issues with going to Saudi Arabia for Hajj (as you have as well). Had it been in another country, you would have gotten your visa also.

So I think Hajj is great, but Saudi Arabia is not so great. Hajj is great, if it along with the religious rituals, it is used benefically as a huge social gatherings of Muslims to exchange ideas also.

Umra I think is ok. But, there maybe other better ways to spend that money, if you ask me. Like donating the money to someone. But that is just my opinion. I always had issues with people who did ten, fifteen Hajjs, just for their own purificaiton. Nothing wrong with it. If one has the money, why not spend it on Hajj. But I still fell their are other ways to spend it.

Hope that makes my position clear.

P.S. There is something interesting I have noticed about Muslim women. I guess it is actually a good thing. Non-Muslim critics of Islam always point out how Muslim women are mistreated by Islam and are thus at a loss. Yet, I have always found Muslim women to be more attached to Islam than Muslim men. Invariably, Muslim women are more sensitive towards anyone making fun of Islam, than Muslim men. I have never heard of any Muslim woman switching religion. While Muslim men do switch religion (though rarely). One would think that Muslim women would be switching religion, left and right, if they felt as oppressed by Islam, as the critics of Islam point out.

Even on this site, there are Muslim men, who have made a career out of making fun of Islam. Many have nothing else to offer. Yet, I have maybe seen only one or so Muslim woman on this site, who openly makes fun of Islam, or has shown any desire to switch religions (something which some Muslim men on this site have done). Invariably, all the misguided and cynical comments about Islam on this site, come from Muslim men.

One could, maybe conclude, that Muslim women are actually more attached to Islam than Muslim men. This would go agaisnt the theorists who claim that Islam suppresses women.

pmishra #103 I have no wish to discuss anything with you. Thank you and have a nice day.

veeresh : When you ask me to ``define muslim`` isnt it a bit like Clinton saying ``define sex``? You are both avoiding the issue. Does anyone in India really have a problem identifying himself as muslim or hindu? Lets get serious.

We can have a theological discussion on what it means to be a muslim (and I think i have discussed this question often enough on chowk), but that is not the point. The point i am making is a very simple one: you go too far in saying India is the ``best`` when it comes to treatment of muslims. All I am pointing to is that things like Gujrat killings with the acquiescence of the state police and governor simply have not happened in the US. (look at this very article, where the writer is whining about not being given chocolates with her hilal food by the airline and blaming it on Bush).

Tahmed: Sorry for the delay in acknowledging your very saintly post. And, I truly mean it. I see your point and I want to appreciate it for the message it conveyed. Thank you for bringing forth a very humble perspective. And, it is not everyone`s cup of tea to even go there. That`s very unique and sweet!


Asif N: I have a flawed argument? Really? Wa`qaiii? I am glad that my flawed argument boosted your morale and revived your confidence! Hope we are square now! Do you even know what is the implication of Haram and Mamnoo`? Are you even able to distinguish between them? If not, then I suggest that you avoid using strong expressions like ``Haram`` in a casual stride. Your flippant expression may have a different implication for your reader. Ok. And, with due respect, you are not the guardian angel of Islam. Please back off! I hope Plats8 is happy now!!!

By the way, I have many uncles and cousins who reside in America, and I should not have any issues in asking one to join me. Somehow, as an adult and a professional independent entity, it`s against my well being to be chaperoned. I am not a baby. And, probably to shock the hell out of you, my uncles and cousins who view me as an independent entity will also think on the same lines.

It all boils down to one thing and I have to spell it out. As a woman, we take many things for granted while living in America and it hurts your finer senses to even envision how your gender is perceived in other parts of the world, claiming to be the protectors and guardian angels of your religion. And, that`s the bottomline!


Hamidm: I need to give you some feedback here. You may have a very valid point but your articulation screws up the message. I did not like the way I wrote the beginning of my earlier post. Instead of saying that I agree with you, I opted for I do not disagree with you. Somehow, I could not come forth and tell you that I completely agreed with you on that particular point. Just because of your weird way of conceptualization and articulation. Probably, that`s how you are cut out; but there are repercussions that you should be aware of. I am not that kind to invest my precious time in making a man understand my rationale on a discussion board so calmly, somehow realizing your challenges softened my heart.

By the way, I have yet to step in a mosque in the last 6-7 years or so. During those 6 - 7 years, I only stepped in once or twice to find a corner where I could concentrate amidst the hustle bustle of life. I have very limited to zero exposure to the kind of crowd you are referring to. I may not see them eye to eye in their outlook towards life, but I won`t be ever condescending towards them. Real enlightenment kicks in when you accept people for who they are and what they are vs. how you want them to be. If you want everyone to follow you in these mazha`ka`khae`z scenarios then there is no flavor in life. You are dead!

Now, listen to me very carefully - do not die in your life. Ok!

That`s it from my end on this insightful, heartfelt and sweet board.

Bye Bye All.

#96 and various other posts of viresh... reg...

In response to various issues that have come up during veeresh`s posts....
His thinking reflects that of a vast majority of hindus... that muslims are just Indians like any other Indians... we look at them as just Indians and not as muslims... (99% of the time)... just like this guy, most of us are bold enough to submit that things like Gujrat violence, Babri are blots on Indias secular image... It would be foolish to conclude that these are fall outs of general ire of Hindus against muslims... it is non existants... like many others here, I have good friends from muslim community.. may be it would be worth mentioning that a muslim guy whoom I barely knew sent me an invitation to his sisters marriage.. just as a gesture of courtesy....

we realise quite well that political forces are trying to divide the society along the lines of religion... and let me assure you that you will find more opposition from the hindu community for such attempts... (say Cong(I) for example is predominantly hindu.. and so is the left... and so is lallo, so is Computer Babu Naidu (CM AP).. and Mulayam(to a point that he was called a mullah!)....

ofcourse the reasons are obvious.... when it comes to votes.. they like the minority votes...

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zahraj,

............at one mosque i sometimes go to for laughs and biryani, the women actually campaigned for a separate women`s entrance and asked that a partition be put up between them and the men dor dinner ............. and these women are not your uneducated and uncouth bedouin types - some of them are higly ``educated professionals`` .......... actually the hooded islamic nun who was spearheading the campaign is a board certified psychiatrist!.............. like i said moslem women deserve what they get............so stop whining and go serve your man who is is your majazi-khuda ............

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