The changing face of America

Hello tahmed32, it is my utmost respect for you and your intelligence that makes me continue, knowing fully well that it is not reciprocated. Mayb both of us are wrong, please go and figure out that triple pun?

Interim, I thank you for your valuable inputs, your frustrations showing up in the choice of increasingly non-imaginative abuse, and your eventual inability to accept the simple true fact - India is a better place for all sorts of Indians, including Muslims. This has been proved quantitatively and qualitatively beyond doubt, and if you cannot accept it, what can I say?

Now please do all of us a favour, sign the anti-hudood ordinance, petition the Saudi Arab government to benchmark India towards treatment of Muslims and as for the poor Palestinians and Kashmiris, check with the Kuwaiti Government on their position on these people? Interim, please do feel free to

And oh yes, don`t forget what the OIC is saying.

Back to the general science books?

ps: Thank you for your repeated references to Gujarat / Godhra / Modi et al. While we all agree in India that the violence and subsequent were blots, we are trying to fix things too. Ofcourse, you wouldn`t have read the various inputs on how Indians saved each other and also try to work for each other?

veeresh #182 so, to back your claim to my writing an abusive post, the worst you can do is dig out the term ``bs`` that I used to describe your posts! ``bullshit`` is in fact a polite word to describe what you have been writing:

a. you compared the muslim families that were burnt to death by hindutva mobs while the police in India looked the other way with the armed combatants imprisoned at Guantanamo by the US. As I said, you added insult over (fatal) injury done to those people in India with terrorists. And you flatter Modi and his scoundrels in comparing the criminal actions of the Gujarat government in permitting the slaughter of over two thousand innocent people to take place with the actions of the US government in imprisoning suspected terrorists (who are routinely visited by various observers, including representative from their own countries, who are allowed to say communal prayers and so on).

b. You claimed that I could not say that those muslims who were killed in Gujarat until I provided you the definition of muslim! And you kept insisting on this absurdity even after I reminded you that those hindutva mobs that killed the muslims needed no definitions to determine who the muslims were that they were out to kill.

Yes, I can think of more accurate words to describe what you are writing, but will leave it at ``bs``. I have wasted enough time with you, so you can fuk off now or stick around. I dont care.

tahmed 32, I refer to your using the term ``bs`` or ``bullshit`` which IMHO is abusvie. Here, btw, is the latest (http://us.rediff.com/news/2003/oct/20saudi.htm) :-

````In a rebuff to Pakistan`s efforts to seek mileage out of the Gujarat riots, Saudi Arabia has said Muslims in India cannot be considered a minority and that they could resolve their problems without outside help.

``I would hate to think of the Muslims in India as a minority, coming from a country that has less Muslims, than the Muslims of India. So these Muslims are not tattered in the wind,`` Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al Faisal said at a joint press conference with his Pakistani counterpart Khurshid M Kasuri in Islamabad on Sunday.

``They (Indian Muslims) are people with substance. They are people with courage and with enough of that courage to stand for their interests by themselves and not to wait for the help of others,`` he said when asked about the kingdom`s stand on Indian Muslims in the context of the Gujarat riots. ````

+++

It seems as though the whole thing goes back to defining what a Muslim is.

veeresh #178 ``logical amendments``

you are being too kind to yourself. less charitable people would call it deception.

but carry on, lets have your next masterpiece...

veeresh #178 i also see you use the word ``abusive`` to describe what i wrote. please cut and paste what i wrote that you consider abusive - or else i will assume that this making of ``logical amendments`` (addressed in my post below) comes easily to you.

being an international student in US for 3 yrs, I went through the similar experience and media holds the sole responsibility for this current situation. after reading article in Times about muslims or after watching msnbc, cnn....things get worse. It is gets really frustrating sometimes and I wonder where all of this propganda against Muslims , leading towards. Would it ever end?....

tahmed # 177, ofcourse I USE your word with logical amendments.

I don`t know about my Uncles/nephews, but I do know, tahmed32 ji, that your getting abusive is a sure sign of despair.

Please go back to #90, and address the original question, as well as statement - Muslims in India are better off than they are in Islamic countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and certain parts of USA like Guantanamo Bay and Saudia. I do not see anybody, Muslim or Hindu or otherwise, Indian/Pakistani or otherwise, denying this simple fact.

Add to that, in the course of the debate here, even the OIC said pretty much the same thing.


You, ofcourse, will pick on phrases out of context but not address the main issue.

Never mind.

veeresh #175 you write ``to use your words . . . `` and then proceed to write stuff I never wrote.

I have in the past had a few instances of individuals misquoting me to others (like your uncle Jay Thakeray, who was then unable to show where I had written that stuff). You have brought your genius to new heights by misquoting me to myself. (I use the word genius jokingly, just in case you take it seriously).

So, carry on with your bs... I have lots of time for you (takes about two seconds to speed read through your bs, and another 20 seconds to respond. But maybe I should start billing you for my time).

tahmed32 # 175, to use your words . . .

````of course you understand...what happens in the Islamic World does not require a rocket scientist to understand...you simply are more concerned with Islam`s precious image than with truth - and the truth is that all sorts of murders that killed countless Muslim people by the Islamic leaders themselves went unreported because there was no way they could, there was no police, there was no governance, there was no election! You understand it all very well. ````

But, as I said, dont let me stop you.

Please continue to live in your fantasy la-la-la-la land, and look for reasons for your own shortcomings by pointing at India.

+++

As far as India`s image is concerned, well, we have something called a free media, currently reporting from, amongst other places, Faizabad and Ayodhya. Also from OIC in Malaysia. Also from J&K. Also from Kerala. Any Indian, or non-Indian, Hindu, Muslim or otherwise, with a legal reason to be in India, can take a video camera and pretty much record whatever they want to make of India`s image. Credible ones get on to news channels and the like.

But.

I wonder what happened to free media for Muslims, leave alone others, in the ultimate paradise for Islamic freedom, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan, USA (Guantanmo Bay), don`t you as a Muslim have a little peep or at least a whimper about that? Oh yeah, that was tahmed32 and his free as the falcon Muslim friends walking down the streets of Jiddah and Riyadh and Mecca and Medina and Kuwait and Guantanamo Bay, checking out the graves of murdered Muslims, non-human Muslim women, de-recognised Muslims and getting their opinion?

And of course, that was tahmed32 getting redressal from the police, and when unable to secure it, approaching the Courts, and when unable to get justice there, heading for the Supreme Courts. That is, when he was not trying to get his elected representative into place.

But of course, that is OK.

But what he really REALLY did not like was the fact that there was no chocolate on the plane.

Yes, tahmed32, Gujarat and Babri, sure. We screwed up, we`ll fix it.

But what did you do with your end of the funny farm?

veeresh #174 ``Now I understand!! ``

of course you understand...what happened in Gujarat does not require a rocket scientist to understand...you simply are more concerned with india`s precious image than with truth - and the truth is that communal murders that killed over 2000 people while police looked the other way. and the governor in charge got re-elected. you understand it all very well.

But, as i said, dont let me stop you.

Ah, now we have soysauce and tahmed32 together, trying to ignore the real issues facing Muslims while beating the India/Godhra-Gujarat-Babri drum!!

It is absolutely correct for ``other Muslims`` to take away the rights of Muslim women, Muslims they don`t like, Muslims of a different colour, Muslims who have a mind . . .

Now I understand!!

Veeresh,
I am beginning to think that you`re trying to ignore the question while maintaining your stupid argument about who a muslim is. Anyone who identifies him/her self as muslim or so identified by others is a muslim. Same goes for a hindu or a christian or a tamil. I think you`re trying to hide your bigotry by resorting to tautology.

veeresh #171 so you still maintain that India has the ``best`` record in treatment of muslims? restating your opinion in post after post, while ignoring obvious evidence to the contrary, doesnt make it right.

but dont let me stop you....keep repeating yourself..i have all day

Subject still the same. For a moment assume I fit your description of a Muslim.

As a Muslim, you or I or any other Muslims, are better off in India.

Better of when compared to Pakistan/Saudia/Kuwait/USA.

I know the OIC wouldn`t agree.

But we have more Muslims outside the OIC than within, right?

veeresg #169 Trying to change the subject I see.

tahmed # 168, suggested reading:-

http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/usenet_evidence/argument.html

A CODE OF CONDUCT FOR EFFECTIVE RATIONAL DISCUSSION
The Fallibility Principle
The Truth-Seeking Principle
The Clarity Principle
The Burden of Proof Principle
The Principle of Charity
The Relevance Principle
The Acceptability Principle
The Sufficiency Principle
The Rebuttal Principle
The Resolution Principle
The Suspension of Judgment Principle
The Reconsideration Principle

1. The Fallibility Principle

When alternative positions on any disputed issue are under review, each participant in the discussion should acknowledge that possibly none of the positions presented is deserving of acceptance and that, at best, only one of them is true or the most defensible position. Therefore, it is possible that thorough examination of the issue will reveal that one`s own initial position is a false or indefensible one.


2. The Truth-Seeking Principle

Each participant should be committed to the task of earnestly searching for the truth or at least the most defensible position on the issue at stake. Therefore, one should be willing to examine alternative positions seriously, look for insights in the positions of others, and allow other participants to present arguments for or raise objections to any position held with regard to any disputed issue.


3. The Clarity Principle

The formulations of all positions, defences, and attacks should be free of any kind of linguistic confusion and clearly separated from other positions and issues.


4. The Burden of Proof Principle

The burden of proof for any position usually rests on the participant who sets forth the position. If and when an opponent asks, the proponent should provide an argument for that position.


5. The Principle of Charity

If a participant`s argument is reformulated by an opponent, it should be expressed in the strongest possible version that is consistent with the original intention of the arguer. If there is any question about that intention or about implicit parts of the argument, the arguer should be given the benefit of any doubt in the reformulation.


`For a practical application of the principles governing good argumentation summarized in this chapter and addressed throughout the book, see the detailed critique of several popular points of view, including those of Shirley MacLaine and Ronald Reagan, in Lawrence L. Habermehl`s The Counterfeit Wisdom of Shallow Minds: A Critique of Some Leading Offenders of the 1980`s (New York: Peter Lang Publishing, Inc., 1995).


6. The Relevance Principle

One who presents an argument for or against a position should attempt to set forth only reasons that are directly related to the merit of the position at issue.


7. The Acceptability Principle

One who presents an argument for or against a position should attempt to use reasons that are mutually acceptable to the participants and that meet standard criteria of acceptability.


8. The Sufficiency Principle

One who presents an argument for or against a position should attempt to provide reasons that are sufficient in number, kind, and weight to support the acceptance of the conclusion.


9. The Rebuttal Principle

One who presents an argument for or against a position should attempt to provide an effective rebuttal to all serious challenges to the argument or the position it supports and to the strongest argument on the other side of the issue.


10. The Resolution Principle

An issue should be considered resolved if the proponent for one of the alternative positions successfully defends that position by presenting an argument that uses relevant and acceptable premises that together provide sufficient grounds to support the conclusion and provides an effective rebuttal to all serious challenges to the argument or position at issue. Unless one can demonstrate that these conditions have not been met, one should accept the conclusion of the successful argument and consider the issue, for all practical purposes, to be settled. In the absence of a successful argument for any of the alternative positions, one is obligated to accept the position that is supported by the best of the good arguments presented.


11. The Suspension of Judgment Principle

If no position comes close to being successfully defended, or if two or more positions seem to be defended with equal strength, one should, in most cases, suspend judgment about the issue. If practical considerations seem to require an immediate decision, one should weigh the relative risks of gain or loss connected with the consequences of suspending judgment and decide the issue on those grounds.


12. The Reconsideration Principle

If a successful or at least good argument for a position is subsequently found by any participant to be flawed in a way that raises new doubts about the merit of that position, one is obligated to reopen the issue for further consideration and resolution.


From Attacking Faulty Reasoning by T. Edward Damer


+++

veeresh #167 (yawn) latest absurdity from you is that my saying ``I don`t have the time to waste with you`` is an insult.

This is a statement of fact, not an insult. (Yawn).

next absurdity please ...

tahmed 32 # 166 - when you run out of logic, you move to insults, right? ``I don`t have the time to waste with you`` is the best response when I ask you to explain a simple thing. Being condescending is equal to ignorance, right?

So. WHY is it that you, and some other educated people, will shed tears for Muslims in India . . . but ignore the realities facing Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Afghanistan?

Let me answer it, then, since you`ve chosen to not have the time . . .

a) because you don`t consider Muslim women to be Muslim enough.
b) because you don`t consider Muslims from some countries to be Muslim enough.
c) because you don`t consider Muslims who are from other sects Muslim enough.

So, point fingers at Gujarat. Point fingers at Indians across the board from your sanctimonious perch.

Now if I tell you what are facts, that so many of those killed in Gujarat were women who are treated like cattle in Islamic countries, so many of them were people from other States or countries who are treated like c/r/a/p in Islamic countries, so many of them were from sects which Islamic countries wouldn`t recognise . . . would you like to qualify your statement a bit to something like ``what is happening to people who may or may not be Muslims in Islamic countries is now happening to them in India also``, and that is sad, needs to be fixed?

Let us bring this discussion back to an even playing fiel, without you picking and choosing phrases - are Muslims treated better in India than in Pakistan (no response from you), Kuwait (no response from you), Saudia (no response from you) or USA implication Guantanamo Bay (again no response from you).

I say yes Indians including Muslims are treated better in India than they are in Saudia, Kuwait, Pakistan and USA = Guantanamo Bay. And I think the deafening silences from the usual rabid gangs on this board say something.

Ignore away, interim, as a Muslim resident of the US, what have you done to improve the lot of non-terrorist Muslims in Islamic countries?

veeresh #163 Your evasion with reality is becoming quite extreme now: you actually compare the murder of innocent families in Gujarat with the incarceration of comabatants in Guantanamo? This is an insult you are adding to the injury of the innocent people killed in Gujarat. As a muslim resident of the US, I am very glad the US is taking strong action against terrorists, even if they claim to be muslims. I only wish the Pakistan government would have the moral fibre to do the same to terrorists in pakistan, and the Indian government would have the moral fibre to do the same to the murderers of muslim families in Gujarat. I wont say it is an affront to truth, because that seems to not concern you.

I wont go further down your post because i dont have the time to waste with you. But you write me another post coming up with another absurdity, and I will again point it out to you and ignore the rest of your post.

the correct question is - would muslims be better off in any country other than india with the same set of parameters (pre-partition history of india, the partition in `47, creation of pakistan as a neighbor and its continued hostile actions, communal conflicts..majority of those initiated by muslims themselves)?

i think muslims would be treated worse in any country other than india...and that includes usa, canada, etc.

#159 Stuka

I accept your point that tahmed32 was quoting a rather strange passage from Veeresh (actually he modified it to be more general: minorities have it best in India, which is not the exact quote).

However, in no way does that reduce my belief that people who insist on comparing India to Sweden and Canada are indulging in silly propaganda. What kind of nonsensical comparison is this? Here we have a relatively democratic (yes, I am well aware of Gujarat and 1984 and Kashmiri pandit murders), relatively open country bordered by the most offensive tyrranies known to man:

China (brutal authoritarian state which has repeatedly practiced mass murder of its own citizens and minorities)
Pakistan (unique islamist-military dictatorship which supports worldwide terror)
Myannmar (hardline military dictatorship)

AND the main problem in the region is INDIA !! What kind of joke is this?

If people are serious about improving demcracy in South Asia then let us look at the region as a whole. If people are serious about rating indian democracy, then let us compare it to peers such as Turkey, Brazil, South Africa.

tahmed 162 . . . ok, let me start all over again:-

FORGIVE ME FOR ALL CAPS. I AM NOT SHOUTING. I CAN HARDLY RESTRAIN THE LAUGHTER THOUGH.

#90 by veeresh on October 12, 2003 2:38am PT
This article and the subsequent interacts brings out a few things which need to be stated in Black & White here:-

OBSERVATIONS.

a) Muslims and others seem to be treated better in the US than in Saudi Arabia, but they are treated the best in India.

THIS IS TRUE. IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE OBLIQUE REFERRENCE TO GUANTANAMO BAY VERSUS SAUDIA ARABIA WHICH IS LIKE A PERPETUAL LEASE TO USA, WHAT CAN I DO?

b) People want chocolates on the tray while flying, but will not buy them before boarding.

THIS IS TRUE.

c) Saudi Arabia`s economy is built around the Hajj, and they will not let that go, while in other religions you can have multi-location centres.

THIS IS TRUE.

d) Queen Latifa and Chaka Khan are not Muslim enough for more than a few other Muslims, worldwide. Nor is Mohamed Ali the boxer.

WHY DO WE IGNORE MUSLIMS OF AFRICAN DESCENT IN OUR VARIOUS HISSABS?

e) Everybody cries about a few hundred Muslim prisoners in Guantama Bay/Cuba, incuding latest the BBC, but nobody cares about the thousands including Muslims who dis-appear regularly in the jails of the Middle East Arabic countries.

(THERE ARE 5000 PAKISTANI MUSLIMS PRISONERS IN SAUDI JAILS ON DATE, KNOWN. HOW MANY MORE HAVE VANISHED WE DON`T KNOW)

+++
Sorry tahmed32, you and your TNT Godhra/Gujarat/Babri theories vanish in the face of the bandobast at Faizabad/Ayodhya earlier today. They vanish in the face of all the arguments offered by me.

Sorry about that.

veeresh #161 so, your latest cover-up attempt is to refer to what you said as ``sarcastic tongue in cheek reference `` on your part and ``pot shots`` at india by others. and some more preaching about muslim countries this and that.

i did not take any pot shots at india (and please cut and paste what i wrote if you think i did), and your boast about india being ``best`` in the world in treatment of muslims was not tongue in cheek.

i await your next coverup attempt...

tahmed32 post 157 - I personally view this constant barrage aimed at India on blots like Gujarat and Babri as an attempt by certain segments from the Muslims owing their allegiance to specific sects within the Islamic countries.

I see that yu, tahmed32, choose to ignore my sarcastic tongue in cheek reference to Saudi Arabia and USA in the same line, so maybe I should have spelt it out to you: - better than the following uSAs - Saudi Arabia (Aramco, USA), Kuwait (replacement for Subic Bay, USA), Pakistan (wannabe USA), Guantamo Bay (non USA permanent perpetual lease territory).

Now, from these US territories, their Islamic leaders take potshots at India and Indian Muslims. And I state, again and again, that Indians including Indian Muslims have it ``best`` out of these.

In this context, I asked you to define Muslim. You did, thank you. Here it is: ````a muslim is simply someone who believes in one God and considers the prophet muhammed to be A (emphasis added) messenger of God. ````


Now take that definition, and please tell me what percentage of Muslims will be better off if they :-

a) Try to get a visa to do the Hajj versus try to visit Ajmer / Hazrat Nizamuddin.

b) Have access to a common legal system in Kuwait versus India?

c) Openly declare their faith to different branches of Islam in Pakistan versus India?

d) Aim for the highest posts in Government, Business in Saudi Arabia versus the same in India, assuming they are citizens of the respective countries?

Re-arrange these any way you want, you get the drift?

And finally, I know everybody is reading poor Edward Said after he`s dead, but (e) how many Islamic Countries give anything more than lip service to Palestinian Refugees versus India?


+++

Mobs are mobs, and lose definition. I learnt this from family accounts of 1947, after some time it becomes contents of steel trunk and fair women. Sorry, but that`s the truth.

+++

It is about time Islam looked within. Otherwise it will keep whining about not getting chocolates on an aeroplane headed for the US, while denying bread to its own ``back home``.

stuka 158 - my context to the treatment of Muslims in the USA was done with a sarcastic reference to Saudi Arabia as a ``non-territory`` of USA (similar to Guatanamo Bay, on perpetual lease), and I am quite sure tahmed32 also realises and knows that. Please grant me the strength of my convictions, as well as knolwedge of ground realities, in as much as the ``real`` USA is concerned?

dost-mittar 157 - sirji, a certain percentage of people will always be discontented. Minorities have the benefit of blaming it on being a minority. My ground view and not just of business leaders is that India is going through a phase where enterprise has its own rewards. Doling out favours to the majority by a government would be fine if it was the government that held the fiscal reins. Here everything is being privatised, the small businessperson never had it so good . . . where is the question of being discriminated if it is your brains and hands that make your future>

PMishra:

``you make fake claims of India being the ``best`` in the world when it comes to treatment of minorities.
[end-quote]

Who has made this silly claim? Why should India be held to such an absurdly high standard? ``


Ahemmyou should have done some reading of the original posts before calling TAhmed Goebbelsian LOL!!

Veeresh:

(I am and was not comparing any of ``our`` countries with the West.)


Okay. I will take your word for it, though your original statement did not lead to that understanding. I do not know about grassroots in the other countries and will therefore not argue with you. I took exception on the basis of USA, Canada etc.

Veeresh#150
I am quite aware of the internecine fights among the sikhs during the 80s, especially the bloody feuds between the two groups lodged in the Golden temple led by Bhindrawalle and another by a Kirtani jatha led by a woman whose body was cut into several pieces by Bhindrawalle`s followers. But there was nothing new in this. The sikhs have been fighting among themselves since the time of the Sikh misals. But they were always able to forget their differences and come together to fight the common enemy. The events of 1984 presented that comon enemy.
I know that India is on the march and we all rejoice in it. I am also aware that ranbaxis, ciplas, wipros and zodiacs led by minorities are among the leaders in this march. But this does not mean that the sikhs and the muslims in general are quite contented in India or that their grievances are not qualitatively different from the grievances of others.

pmishra #151 you ask `` Who has made this silly claim? ``

veeresh. see my post #145 where I cutandpaste from his post #90 which he now denies writing.

I see you then proceed to attribute this ``silly claim`` to me. You can call me names too. That is all fine.

It gives me no joy to see veeresh avoiding truth. At least he is not as bloody minded as you are.

You on the other hand are a good example of the hate-filled thakeray crowd I never would have believed existed until I came to chowk. So, please dont try to engage me in further discussions. I wont lower myself into calling you names, but I have enough time to waste to keeping exposing your bs.

#144 Veeresh writes:
yes, there is and has been for the last few years now an ongoing illegal immigration of farm labour from Pakistan into India. It is an open secret. Into Rajasthan, Punjab and even Kutch.


The reality is quite different. 2 million Indians, Bangladeshis and Burmese are living illegaly in Karachi.

``Owing to the scale and diversity of the immigrant population, estimates of its size and composition remain rough. In Karachi, the largest segment – about 1.3 million – hails from Bangladesh, while totals from Africa, Burma and India reach into the hundreds of thousands``.

Link