The changing face of America

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Romair: Your post had way too much cynicism and your argument on performing the Hajj is amazingly mind boggling. Do not tell me the next time your parents ask you to jump into a ditch you will do that without a second glance. Mainly, since they are the parents and they are right. Point is that you should jump into a ditch becasue YOU want to. Not because you are asked to. But thank you for sharing some personal experiences. To each their own!


Hamidm: I do not disagree with you on your remark about Muslim Women leading themselves to be the second class citizens. I do believe that you get what you strive for and strive to be. But you are missing a point. It`s real important to choose your battles carefully depending on how much time you have on your hands. Who leads a prayer and who follows has nothing to do with one`s ego. It would even defeat the purpose of the actual prayer. Hopefully, you won`t communicate such absurd ideas to your daughters. Please be reasonable when acting as a mentor to anyone.

To clarify, my point was that in a gathering where men are in majority, and they disappear without letting the female participants know that they are off to prayers, is pretty damn rude. I admit my foolishness to expect any such politeness from the uncouth species.

Rest of your gibberish was the working of a weak mind. Probably, it`s time for you to give some rest to the weak neurons.

Best Wishes...

#94 tahmed32

[quote]
What you cant compare India with, far less claim India is the best as you claim, is most of the rest of the world. Not even African nations, let alone the US or Europe.
[end-quote]

Oh, hear we go again. I have noted previously the fascination of our pakistani friends with european countries (sweden), canada etc. These are always proposed as ``fair`` comparison for India. But apparently India should not be compared with Pakistan, Bangldadesh, Sri Lanka, China, Nepal, Iran, Afghanistan, Thailand, Malaysia etc.

What kind of nonsensical logic is this? A third-world country with a remarkable functioning democracy is to be knocked to the ground because it doesn;t compare with countries that have 20 times the per capita income??? If you guys are so impressed with Canada or Sweden, why don`t you work on changing Pakistan to be more like them? How come I never see an article titled ``Ten Steps to make Pakistan more like Sweden``? Huh???

It all comes down to this. The infidel (India, Israel, USA etc.) are always to be held to high standards around secularism, human rights etc. But the blessed ummah is already there

---

no need to worry about these issues at all.

What a loser and hypocrite you are !

#77 Romair
You make a lot of excellent points. Regarding israel vis-a-vis american foreign policy, it`s quite telling that the support of terrorism that Bush has been talking about has been the $10K reward that Saddam Hussein was offering the suicide bombers. Syria harbors ``terrorists`` that don`t in any way threaten the US but are moral enemies of israel. Iran is on its trigger sight for the same reason. Saudia poses no danger to israel and thus is no threat to the US. The jewish cabal (wolfowitz, perle, etc.) has taken over american foreign policy and is fighting israel`s wars by proxy..

Stuka 88, thanks, the way I would like to see it is that justice and injustice are applied equaaly across the board to Indians, regardless of religion. There was injustice to countless people in Punjab in the `80s, Hindus and Sikhs, and it goes, till today, unpunished. Please try to view the 1984 anti-Sikh riots as a part of that larger series of injustices?

As far as punishing specifically the main perpetuators of the `84 riots through the legal process is concerned, well, atleast the matter is still alive and being pursued, it is another matter that perception is that Tytler, HKL Bhagat and Sajjan Kumar seem to have a large number of Sikh supporters themselves.

My point to tahmed32 is simple - before he gets on his high horse trying to be the sole saviour of Muslims in India, would he like to define Muslims? And then we move from there?

Veeresh:

On one hand you use the word ``best`` and on the other, you say that comparison between countries is impossible.


You say...

``Please be aware, also, that there is a system of redressal in India, and slow or otherwise, it tries to work. ``

I was in Delhi when the 1984 Riots took place. Almost 20 Years, not one conviction. The only redressal that took place was when certain Sikhs took matters in their own hands and killed Lalit Maaken who was very much involved in the riots.

Contrast that with American system of justice. The killer of a Sikh is given death penalty in less then two years.

TAhmed is certainly justified in bringing up Gujarat, Babri, Meerut, Provincial Armed Constablury etc etc. India may be better then Arab countries in looking after minorities. Maybe Pakistan as well.

My point is not to just bash India but to pout things in perspective. Law and Order, governance etc. does not exist in equal measure to all communities.

Tahmed32, #97, Sir, I do not compare India to Pakistan. There is no comparision possible between any countries, leave alone those with common histories. I do not say one is better, one is worse.

I am asking you, tahmed32, to define what your concept of being a Muslim is. And after that, let us try to analyse whether India and/or Pakistan is a good place for Muslims or not.

No comparisions with Pakistan. Unless somebody wants to start a debate on whether Pakistan is a good place for Muslims to be in. And for that, we shall have to go back to Pakistan`s definition of being a Muslim.

While here in India, we are quite clear about the definition of Muslim. A Muslim in India is, simply, another Indian, like a Hindu or a Christian.

Can you, tahmed32, say that a Muslim or Hindu or Christian in Pakistan is simply, another Pakistani?

So it all goes back, tahmed32, define your concept of a Muslim first, then define the position of a Muslim in Paistan, and then we proceed.

The sensitive spot is encouraged by a childhood Muslim Indian friend staying over for a few days at my place, standing right here behind this keyboard, and after some time I have to go with him to his ancestor`s graveyard for some prayers. What most moral pedestal, as I have said before, and I say it again, some accident in the past makes me a Hindu and him a Muslim. So we live with it, and let others live.

(But what about you, tahmed32? You can`t even define Muslim. Shame on you.) In brackets courtesy my friend.

veeresh #96 I seem to have touched a sensitive spot here. You compare India to Pakistan - but I already said that you can do that (``You can compare India to Pakistan ``). What you cant compare India with, far less claim India is the best as you claim, is most of the rest of the world. Not even African nations, let alone the US or Europe.

Time to get off that ``Most Moral`` pedestal, n`est pas??

Hi Romair 91, no I am not really into Hip-Hop but happened to see the credits for Chicago and also forgot to mention Paula Abdul. Sorry. Or Cat Stevens too. My question is and was, are they Muslim enough for you?

tahmed32, thank you for earnest endeavours in bringing up Gujarat and Babri Masjid. Please be aware, also, that there is a system of redressal in India, and slow or otherwise, it tries to work.

Now tahmed32 would you take your earnest endeavours a bit further and try to address the issues of Muslims in Bangladesh vis-a-vis the heroic West Pakistani Army, enough graveyards there? Or maybe you could address the issue of Palestinian Muslims and how they are decimated in the ultimate free teritories of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Hey, how about Ahmedi Muslims in Jhang, and if the DM flogged them for distributing sweets and making merry, thus disturbing the equanimity of other Muslims? As a matter of interest, since we don`t have one in India, could you puclish the grading list of the various kinds of Muslims on a 1-10 scale for us, please?

I normally don`t get into these f/a/r/t/i/n/g competitions, so excuse me . . . but if you look at my post 90 again, I did not mention Pakistan. So why are you, tahmed32, jumping up and down trying to be as popular as a cat at a dog-show?

Yes, Gujarat was a blot. So was Babri Masjid. That, and other blots, are the price we pay in India for something called freedom. You wouldn`t understand that tahmed32, and let me assure you, that has nothing to do with your being a Muslim. The accident of fate that you are a Muslim and I am not has nothing to do with the Gujarat blot. The reality that I am willing to accept it as a blot, but you cannot see th same blots, is probably to do with the flies in your eyes, not mine.

Matter of fact, tahmed32, would you like to explain here what your concept of being a Muslim is?

That was my question to this Board, if you look at #90 again.

vereesh #90: I didn`t know you were so into hip-hop.

Is Queen Latifah a Muslim? I have read that Ice Cube is a Muslim also. As is Public Enemy. Or they have some relationship with the Nation of Islam.

veeresh #90 just one minor point about muslims being better treated the best in India: I read your post out to the people who died in Gujrat, and they all rose from their graves and voted a unanimous ``Yes``. I went to this joint where the Babri masjid stood, and was pleased to see volunteer workers from all over India rebuilding the mosque.

You can compare India to Pakistan and say that at least you have muslims in India while we have very few hindus (with exceptions, like this one chap in the Pakistan cricket team - and dont ask me his name since someone told me the other day and I fogot). But to say that India is the best is going way too far. They dont have mobs attacking muslim family homes in the US (or Europe or Canada or Australia or Thailand or even in any African country) while the governor (like Modi) looks the other way.

zahraj--the logic in your post is flawed: yes all those acts are haram in islam which you mentioned (zina, etc.) and many muslim men are unfortunately players like you say (as are muslim women too btw) but that does not make it any more jaiz [permissible--using technical fiqh terminology] for you to commit another haram by going to umrah without a mahram. As to whether the acts have any moral equivalence i cannot answer that but i do not think so but what i can say is that haram is haram. It is haram to drink alcohol and it is haram to do zina and it is haram to disrespect your parents. All 3 of these are considered haram in shar`iah. whether one of these is more haram than the other I do not know and you would have to ask an alim. But they are all haram and we must try to avoid them.

Here is an answer I got from a traditional Sunni (non-Wahabi) source on the www to a q similar to yours:

Pilgrimage:


Hajj without a mahram?
Answered by Shaykh Abdurrahman ibn Yusuf

Question: I am an adult woman (unmarried) who can afford to perform Hajj, alhamdulillah. However, my father has passed away and I have only one mahram in the country where I live, namely my younger brother. My brother is not employed and unable to afford to perform Hajj. Is it permissible for me to wait until my brother is able to afford to go on Hajj and then go with him? I could pay for his trip; however, would I be excused if I didn`t go as yet?

Assalamu alaykum

In the name of Allah, the Inspirer of truth

Haj is necessary for a woman if she has a mahram [unmarriageable kin] or husband to accompany her on the journey. This means that she has to have a mahram or husband who is willing to go along. If a mahram is willing to go along but does not have sufficient funds for himself to make the trip; or has sufficient funds but does want to spend of it, then she is obliged to pay his expenses too if she has the means to. If she does not possess the means of paying his expenses, then haj will not be necessary on her (Radd al-Muhtar 2:145, Muallim al-Hujjaj 84).

In your case, haj would be obligatory on you if you brother is mature [or close to maturity but is sensible and understanding] and is willing to accompany you, and you have the means to pay for his expenses as well.

Regarding the sin in delaying it, it is stated in the al-Durra al-Mukhtar that it is prohibitively disliked to delay it once it becomes necessary upon a person. However, according to the stronger position if the person performs the haj prior to dying the sin is lifted (Radd al-Muhtar 2:140)

Wassalam
Abdurrahman ibn Yusuf

Source: http://www.sunnipath.com

zahraj,

.......... muslim women fully deserve what they get .......... actually they are more guilty than the bearded men for their continued second class status............. the mullahs might be misogynists, but the muslim women are masochists who keep on defending the ``faith`` even as they walk in through a small back door to the mosques .................. like ``house niggers`` they are not comfortable coming in through the main entrance ......... as a matter of fact they demand a ``sister`s entrance`` ............ they happily don the hijab, a symbol of their servitude; they put on abaya sacks and wear dark glasses; they sit behind a screens so that the men cannot see them; they mock women who speak up against hudood laws and call them kafirs; they happily accept the role that islam officially granted them fourteen hundred years ago ............. and they spout off the same nonsense as their men about how the arabs were burying their daughters before gabriel entered a dark cave ............. drivel and kaka!

............ you made your bed, so lie down and stop complaining!

p.s so why didn`t you take up your cousins` offer and lead the prayers?.......... and why do you have to sneak after the men at paki-american functions so that you can stand behind them and debase yourself ?............ next time follow me to the bar - i have no qualms about having a drink with a woman ...... heck i will even buy............

Dear Zahra:
More power to you:-).
I recently met a Muslim Indian at a party who narrated the wows of his sister. She is married to an Irish Canadian who was posted to Saudi Arabia two years ago. The poor woman has been trying to be with her husband ever since but has always been refused visa. Imagine! a muslim woman cannot go to Saudi Arabia but her Christian husband has no problem!

Romair:
Virtual hajj! Time for ijtehad?:-)

ahmedmadani:
It is rare that I have to disagree with you but I have to make an exception about your old joke about the agri-culture of Panjab. I think it`s time that we Panjabis give up our complex in this regard. Panjabi folk music is second perhaps only to Bengali in its richness and variety. Panjabi wedding songs, in particular, are full of sweetness and melancholy; my eyes still well up when I hear a song like `saada chidiyaan da chamba ve, babul asaan ud jaana` or `maanvan te diyaan mil baithiyaan ni maaye`. or `madhaaniyan, hai ve merya daadya rabaa kinaan jamiyan kinan ne lai jaaniyan`.
Since you travel a lot in India, I am surprised that you did not notice the `panjabisation` of Indian culture. Panjabi salwar-kameez -we still call it by the original name salwaar; I dont know why Pakistanis added an `h`, even old Pakistani films used the proper name!- now is the universal dress of girls, even in the south where they call it `panjabi`; panjabi dhaabas reign supreme on the Indian highways; panjabi cuisine like naan, tandoori chicken, tika, daal makhani, butter chicken are now synonymous with Indian cuisine even outside India; the wedding scenes in the Indian films - and not just Monsoon Wedding - are typically panjabi; the Indian pop music is full of Panjabi or a mixture of Hindi-Panjabi songs, even in Hindi films; one hears panjabi pop even on the sand-dunes of Jaisalmer and the cruise boats of Goa; while Panjab has not produced high culture dance form, bhangras are the dance-de-rigeur at every baraat and wedding. Not bad for agri-culture wallahs!
If Panjab did not produce great literary works in the past, it was because Panjabis had, under foreigners` influence, abandoned their language and preferred Urdu-Persian as a vehicle for their literary expression. This is now changing, at least in India, with people like Amrita Pritam and Shiv Kumar Batalvi producing highly respected literary works. If Dullabhatti is looking in, he could produce a more contemporary list in this regard.

This article and the subsequent interacts brings out a few things which need to be stated in Black & White here:-

a) Muslims and others seem to be treated better in the US than in Saudi Arabia, but they are treated the best in India.

b) People want chocolates on the tray while flying, but will not buy them before boarding.

c) Saudi Arabia`s economy is built around the Hajj, and they will not let that go, while in other religions you can have multi-location centres.

d) Queen Latifa and Chaka Khan are not Muslim enough for more than a few other Muslims, worldwide. Nor is Mohamed Ali the boxer.

e) Everybody cries about a few hundred Muslim prisoners in Guantama Bay/Cuba, incuding latest the BBC, but nobody cares about the thousands including Muslims who dis-appear regularly in the jails of the Middle East Arabic countries.

ZahraJ #83: ``Why did you perform your Hajj ? Penance ?``

I performed Hajj because my parents told me to, and because it is on the Islamic checklist. I only fast on the weekends, pray only once a day, didn`t get a chance to go into combat during the military days, thus, unlike NazarHayatKhan, I didn`t get the Jihad column scratched. So I had to get something checked off. Though I am not quite sure whether mine counted, since I was a bit young at the time.

I think Hajj is a great thing. Muslims from all over the world, in one place, with no difference between rich and poor, no sectarianism, wearing the same clothes, getting to know each other, getting exposed to other cultures, seeing the historical sites of their religion first hand, all the while scoring big time points with the Man upstairs.

Watching thousands of Muslims performing the same actions, in an egalitarian (if somewhat disorganized manner) is a sight to see, and something which will always appeal to me. If and when Muslim countries reach the first-world, imagine what kind of social, cultural and philosophical ideas could be interchanged at such a gigantic multinational gathering. Even if one looks at it from a non-religious/secular point of view, it would make the Toronto film festival, the Davos convention, and the annual session of the UN look like a small coffee party.

So I have no problems with Hajj. It is perhaps the greatest social/religious gathering in the world. I just wish it wasn`t in Saudi Arabia. At least, not in present-day Saudi Arabia.

I am afraid I cannot share your positive comments about Saudis. I am sure there are a few good guys there. But on the whole, what you are experiencing isn`t just the Saudi govt. It is the Saudi society. They are Taliban with money.

For starters, they are a heridatory kingdom. This in itself is against Islam. They are racist, specifically against Pakistanis (and South Asians). This goes against rule no. 1 of Islam. They treat women like sheep. While Islam, even by early 20th century standards (if not by 21st century standards) liberated women 1400 years ahead of other cultures. They have different pay structures for goras and desis, for the same job. This goes against Islam. So on and so forth.

I was taking a taxicab during Hajj in Saudi Arabia. A Saudi kid was driving it. Half way during the ride, he stopped the cab, in the middle of the desert, and told us to get out. And just left us there. For no reason.

Many years later, I took a Saudi Air flight from Lahore. We were stopped on the door of the airplane, and the attendant started searching our hand baggage. In most airlines, they say, ``Welcome`` at that point, and smile. When we reached Riyadh (or Jeddah, can`t remember), we were hauled up in a group, and literally escorted like sheep from one end of the airport to the other, without being able to take a step in any other direction.

Saudi govt. does help Pakistan at the national level quite a bit. But, at a social level, Saudis consider Pakistanis second rate people. I have never quite figured out why many Pakistanis still keep singing their songs of praise. Either I don`t understand Saudis or they don`t. I personally feel that anyone who treats someone like a second rate person should be avoided or be treated in the same manner.

As I suggested earlier, Hajj is nice (though very inconvenient in Saudi Arabia). Visiting all the historic places in Mecca and Medina is great. But Umra maybe a bit over-rated, especially if they are not letting you go by yourself. Ironically, during the tawaf, men and women walk together, right next to each other, without problems. In fact, a lot of them make a lot of effort to kiss the Hajra-Aswad (Istilam?). And from what I have been told (didn`t pay much attention to it myself, so it is heresay), due to the massive crowd, many of the men and women actually miss the rock, and end up kissing each other.

You may want to try attending the Raiwind seminar, if the Umra doesn`t work, for you. It is the second biggest religous gathering in the world after Hajj. Though I am not sure whether they allow women to attend. I am seriously thinking of going. Those Tablighi Jamaat guys seem quite different from the Jamaat-i-Islami and JUI types. People go to that seminar and come back a changed person. In many cases, forgetting about family and friends and becoming full-time Tablighis. This is why my wife won`t let me attend.

Or I suggest a vacation in Istanbul or Venice, if the Saudis won`t let you in. I am sure those cities have mosques there. And believe me, Europe, even after 9/11, is a lot nicer than Saudi Arabia.

The final choice would be to get Hamidm to act as a mehrem. I am sure he would oblige. I bet you ten bucks, he is a closet Haji.

P.S. I did my Hajj, back in the old days, so Mecca and Medina may have become more organized, by now. And a piece of advice: if the crowd is huge during the tawaf, and you are having difficulty moving, look for the group of tall Black guys from African countries. Get behind them. They are very good at clearing the way.