The changing face of America

Veeresh:

Be it Delhi or Gujarat, the term ``Riots`` are misleading. They were pogroms with no semblance of anything approaching equal aggression by both communities.

You say the state apparatus broke down. Not only did it break down, it abbeted the pogroms by inaction and political pressure. Corrective Action was taken in Delhi in 2-3 days but that was not the case in UP. As Pardesi says, to say that the law cannot take its course because a few Sikhs support the individuals is mind boggling. Wonder how Dara Singh ended up getting the death penalty then?

Anyways, you are entitled to your opinions but I fail to see how they would carry any validity since you are not a Muslim and cannot therefore speak for even a single one.

Dost-Mittar # 127

I guess the reason is that powerful people are all related to each other at business level. High-level businesses depend upon the suppliers, buyers, labor unions and bureaucrats to get things done. The powerful criminals do own/influence quite a few levers even though they may not be in power today. It’s like Kennedys’ influence in USA even during Republican rule.

Our moral fiber as desis is quite weak. In spite of all our “agla janm” “pichhla janam” “84 lakh lives” bullcrap, we are not the people who will feel very guilty about our own contribution to mass murders or day-to-day misery of our fellow citizens. As long as our own class is reaping the benefits, we use fancy language like “trickle down effect will take care of masses” to absolve ourselves of any social responsibilities (e.g. clean drinking water or at least enough food for every one). We Indians are the ultimate Republicans.

With that weak desi character, any BJP politician, or even Sikh businessman, will subconsciously do quick cost benefit analysis in forcing any unpleasant issue today: What are the quantifiable benefits in dollars and cents to me? Nothing, except couple of “wah wahs” from 2% Sikhs. What are negatives? You might loose Congress’s critical votes in some other give and take bills and unnecessary headaches with other Congresswallas who might be stakeholders in your businesses. You see my point? Congress and BJP are no different than Republicans and Democrats here. They will keep criticizing each other to get votes and later on they need each other due to mutual interdependence in matters of business and governance.

The lessons learnt by Sikhs:

1. Protect yourself by not opening your big mouth for greater good of the country (e.g., the way they use to do in 1970s asking for more economic powers for states. Like any change, the beneficiary will not give you any credit and the looser will go after you. Indira Gandhi and powerful businesses, which thrived on central control, made these guys the targets. And look at the results when finally central grip was loosened. The top billionaire list is not dominated by old money any more).
2. Just buy influence with both parties and keep yourself busy minting money the way other regular people do. Don’t try to be a hero, let the country take the course it will take. Understand your limitations and learn to deal with it.

PS: Once I was discussing our Indian attitudes (on not giving a damn about poor) with another gora guy, and he said that the western elite only started worrying about poor whites around 1820 after their industries became dependent upon the health of its labor. So, there is hope for our poor in future as manufacturing expands and becomes dependent upon healthy but poor masses. As economist, you might want to tell us more on this some time :).

From the article:
``This time the Brit seated next to me wished to have a snack too. Funnily enough they couldn’t very well serve him while avoiding me so they were avoiding him too. He asked twice for a sandwich and they told him they would be back with it. Eventually he and I did get served, although after a persistent demand by the two of us.
``...In a never-before seen-but-now-operational Baggage Check, both my suitcases were inspected, as were of ALL OTHER FOREIGNERS.`` (emphasi added)

And yet this:
``This time the story was different. I experienced the growing wave of racial profiling and discrimination and was amazed at how much things changed in this one-year time span.``

What gives!? Where is the ``racial profiling``? And could the treatment by the aircrew just have been a case of bad service? I actually took the same flight last year. Yes, one of the stewrd/esses was quite short and unhelpful, the others, though were the opposite. And I`m a male. Higher ``risk`` group.

Romair: Between you and me, I neither have the time nor the desire to invest on this board any more. It`s a beautiful day outside. And, I want to enjoy my Columbus Day since this is the 1st time I have a Day Off in October! :) I suggest you enjoy your thanksgiving. I have responded to you in my i-log and felt the need to do so. Bye Bye and Happy Thanksgiving!

eNjOy!
[I do miss the fRoG gOdDeSs/pRiNcEsS]

tahmed # 120, let me try to bring this out chronologically please, relevant to this debate??

1) I said: - #90 by veeresh on October 12, 2003 2:38am PT

````This article and the subsequent interacts brings out a few things which need to be stated in Black & White here:-

a) Muslims and others seem to be treated better in the US than in Saudi Arabia, but they are treated the best in India.

d) Queen Latifa and Chaka Khan are not Muslim enough for more than a few other Muslims, worldwide. Nor is Mohamed Ali the boxer. ````

2) You said:- #94 by tahmed32 on October 12, 2003 8:09am PT

````veeresh #90 just one minor point about muslims being better treated the best in India: I read your post out to the people who died in Gujrat, and they all rose from their graves and voted a unanimous ``Yes``. I went to this joint where the Babri masjid stood, and was pleased to see volunteer workers from all over India rebuilding the mosque. ````

3) I said:- #96 by veeresh on October 12, 2003 8:42am PT

````tahmed32, thank you for earnest endeavours in bringing up Gujarat and Babri Masjid. Please be aware, also, that there is a system of redressal in India, and slow or otherwise, it tries to work.

Now tahmed32 would you take your earnest endeavours a bit further and try to address the issues of Muslims in Bangladesh vis-a-vis the heroic West Pakistani Army, enough graveyards there? Or maybe you could address the issue of Palestinian Muslims and how they are decimated in the ultimate free teritories of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Hey, how about Ahmedi Muslims in Jhang, and if the DM flogged them for distributing sweets and making merry, thus disturbing the equanimity of other Muslims? As a matter of interest, since we don`t have one in India, could you puclish the grading list of the various kinds of Muslims on a 1-10 scale for us, please?

I normally don`t get into these f/a/r/t/i/n/g competitions, so excuse me . . . but if you look at my post 90 again, I did not mention Pakistan. So why are you, tahmed32, jumping up and down trying to be as popular as a cat at a dog-show?

Yes, Gujarat was a blot. So was Babri Masjid. That, and other blots, are the price we pay in India for something called freedom. You wouldn`t understand that tahmed32, and let me assure you, that has nothing to do with your being a Muslim. The accident of fate that you are a Muslim and I am not has nothing to do with the Gujarat blot. The reality that I am willing to accept it as a blot, but you cannot see th same blots, is probably to do with the flies in your eyes, not mine.

Matter of fact, tahmed32, would you like to explain here what your concept of being a Muslim is?

That was my question to this Board, if you look at #90 again. ````

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Since I asked you first, would you please answer me first, if you don`t mind?

veeresh #133 You keep asking questions that I have already responded to (e.g. on the question of pakistan`s record with minorities, and this definition of muslim that i told you was irrelevant to the point being discussed and to which i provided you with a definition anyway. You ignore all this, so what`s the point of my wasting more time with you?

Also, I see you have not been able to back any of the accusations you made towards me by cutting and pasting anything I had ever written. Nor do you apologize for making false accusations (that would be way too much to expect I suppose). You just ignore that.

Finally, I see that when you see that the point I had raised with you (namely your contention that India is the ``best`` in the world when it comes to treatment of muslims) has also been questioned by Pardesi, you conveniently change the issue to something more defensible (this quote is from your post below to pardesi): ``It is my contention that on yardsticks of generalisations as well as numbers, Muslims have it worse in other countries including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Pakistan, than they do in India.`` This, of course, is NOT what your contention has been.

For the above reasons, I shall take a bow on further discussion with you. Have a nice day.

PS: Enjoy telling people about the nice samosa`s in delhi. All that feel good stuff rings hollow given the way you have behaved in this interaction as described above.

Fine tahmed132, you have a nice day/evening too, and continue ignoring the real question:-

````Now tahmed32 would you take your earnest endeavours a bit further and try to address the issues of Muslims in Bangladesh vis-a-vis the heroic West Pakistani Army, enough graveyards there? Or maybe you could address the issue of Palestinian Muslims and how they are decimated in the ultimate free teritories of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Hey, how about Ahmedi Muslims in Jhang, and if the DM flogged them for distributing sweets and making merry, thus disturbing the equanimity of other Muslims? As a matter of interest, since we don`t have one in India, could you puclish the grading list of the various kinds of Muslims on a 1-10 scale for us, please? ````

````Matter of fact, tahmed32, would you like to explain here what your concept of being a Muslim is? ````

````Since I asked you first, would you please answer me first, if you don`t mind? ````


+++

You`re not taking a bow. You`re taking evasive action.

+++

As for the cut and paste, tahmed, I assure you, answer me first, and you`ll get it.

Pardesi, some good posts. Quickly couple of points. 1 billion Indians still have no idea after 20 years have passed that what historical scars June 84 and Nov 84 have left on the Sikhism(not only Sikhs). I must also add there has been very little effort either to understand it or correct it. Result. Sikhs have turned introvert to a large extent...rather than having that ``we are protectors of India`` danda up there rear, that it used to be, they are turning more pragmatic, more business oriented and buying influence rather than asking for it to be their fair share in India. With exponential increase in the number of landless sikhs(amongst jatts), the Sikh community is changing very fast in its world view as well as what it thinks it is itself.

veresh #134 I made it clear to you a long time ago (post #94) that what I was objecting to was your saying that India has the world`s ``best`` record in treatment of muslims, and I had no need to be defensive of Pakistan`s record. Here is a cut and paste of what I wrote in #94:

``You can compare India to Pakistan and say that at least you have muslims in India while we have very few hindus (with exceptions, like this one chap in the Pakistan cricket team - and dont ask me his name since someone told me the other day and I fogot). But to say that India is the best is going way too far. They dont have mobs attacking muslim family homes in the US (or Europe or Canada or Australia or Thailand or even in any African country) while the governor (like Modi) looks the other way. ``

I see I gave the example of ``few hindus`` left in Pakistan, and you brought up Bangladesh instead: ``address the issues of Muslims in Bangladesh vis-a-vis the heroic West Pakistani Army``. Unlike you, I recognize that a lot of crimes have been committed in the name of Pakistan as well that have gone unpunished. As I have said many times on chowk, it is a disgrace that those individuals (starting with Niazi) within the Pakistan army who attacked civilians were not brought to justice.

Unlike your rosy claims about India, I have no need to hide the truth about Pakistan. Both India and Pakistan are primitive societies when it comes to treatment of the weak and the poor. The sooner the well off people on both sides recognize that fact, the sooner these societies will progress forward.

Dullabhatti #136

Very concise and accurate picture of the situation that I was trying to describe in so many words in #131 :).

Frankly, no one in India, or elsewhere, cares about how we feel. People do not have time or inclination. For others, it’s over and the sooner we forget, the better.

Hopefully, our people will grow up and rather than trying to be just emotional faujis of India, we will learn to protect our own interests in much smarter ways in the new brave technological world.

Regards.

Dulla Bhatti:

Excellent post in #136. I echo Pardesi`s comments with one caveat....

``Frankly, no one in India, or elsewhere, cares about how we feel...``

I care. As an individual and an Indian citizen I care.

Also, I feel that what the original Sikh movement was about..would have been..or rather would be..beneficial to India as a whole. Federalism will benefit all, not just Sikhs. Then ofcourse there are issues which are specific to Punjab such as SYL, Chandigarh etc, which would have benefitted all Punajabis though some communities more then others. Unfortunately, all that is in the public memory today is the communal angle, not the real needs which still exist.

Veeresh: I too was startled when you made the claim that Muslims are treated best in the world. In general, minorities are treated much better in the West then they are in India and that includes Muslims. How can you say India treats its Muslims better then the US, where TAhmed, DullaBhatti and I live? Not too sure about Pardesi, where he lives...

Compare the death of one Sikh and the death penalty given to the killer in Arizona to the ``abberations`` that have taken place frequently in 1984, 1992, 2002 etc with no justice for the victims.

vereesh #119: ``It is my contention that on yardsticks of generalisations as well as numbers, Muslims have it worse in other countries including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Pakistan, than they do in India.``

One could make an argument that minorities have it worse in Pakistan than in India (at least in the pre-BJP days). But to state that Muslims have it worse in Pakistan than in India is a hugely misinformed statement.

If this were the case, there would be a massive illegal immigrant movements of Muslims into India from Pakistan. One doesn`t see that. In fact, Pakistan is the one country that gets a lot of illegal Asian Muslim immigrants coming into it, not going out of it. This includes Bangladeshis and Afghanis.

You can look at the economic statistics and it will become quite clear, that Pakistani Muslims are quite a bit better off than Indian Muslims. Their per-capita income is higher. There participation in the govt. is significantly higher. They hold much higher govt. positions. So on and so forth. Infact the biggest complain one could have against Pakistani Muslims is that they are now so powerful in their country, that they can discriminate against others.

Even in the USA, in my profession, nearly every South Asian Muslim I meet is a Pakistani. I rarely ever have run across an Indian Muslim. While I have across hundreds of Indian Hindus.

You will find the same figures everywhere else. Saying that Muslims in India are better off than Muslims in Pakistan, would be like stating that Hindus in Pakistan are better off than Hindus in India. It is too far-fetched an idea.

shankar #128: ``A ``mehram``, I`m assuming, is a male escort. Why is it ``haram`` to perform Umra alone?
Does anybody have an answer?``

There is no answer to this, or other such similar questions.

Islam is such an abstract religion, that it can be interpreted in a thousand different ways. That to me is its beauty. And that is why, despite complaining about it, very very few Muslims ever leave it. Its abstraction allows all Muslims to find some sort of an interpretation, that fits their thinking. This is why Asif N. is as happy in his Islam as I am in mine and ZahraJ is in hers and Hamidm is in his. It is quite possible all of us look at Islam from different directions, and we may disagree with each other, yet none of us will switch religions, or even consider moving it out of our lives. Even Hamidm for all his tirades against Islam, seems to know far too much about the practices of Muslims in mosques and other Muslims events to indicate that he does participate in them.

I personally think it is quite wrong to demand that a women should have a mehrem. And I could provide you arguments supporting this through my interpretation of Islam. While Asif N. could provide you arguments supporting it through his understanding of the religion. The problems start if try to impose my will on him, or if he tries to impose his will on me.

I think Islam requires one Muslim country to get into the first world. Once that happens, all other Muslim countries will have a role model to follow, and then people will start gelling around some successful practical interpretations of the religion.

``So I was surprised when Romair mentioned that women campaigned for a separate entrance in a mosque.``

I think you may have misread. I don`t think I ever said that women campaigned for a separate entrance in a mosque.

Stuka # 139

``I care as Indian citizen ...``

Thanks. You are a very decent Indian.

I have been in USA for over 3 decades.

Regards.

PS: My 4 day weekend is over. No more posts from me on this topic :).
PPS: Go Yankees! No one should man-handle 72 year olds!!!!

re: pardesi

{PPS: Go Yankees! No one should man-handle 72 year olds!!!! }

...agreed...and no man headed to the hall of fame should be hitting batters every year no matter what team they are from (aka rodger clemens)....

Romair # 140 - yes, there is and has been for the last few years now an ongoing illegal immigration of farm labour from Pakistan into India. It is an open secret. Into Rajasthan, Punjab and even Kutch.

Also, all religions can be interpreted in different ways, and that is the beauty of some religions, where a joyful and forgiving ``God`` permits this.

I think Islam had enough countries with opportunities to get into the First World. The oil countries couldn`t make the grade. The Levant/Med moved so fast that the West was threatened and Israel entered as factor ``X``. In the ASEAN countries, some Muslim countries are moving up. But then, what is a Muslim country? At some point, the state and the religion have to part ways for growth and progress, and that is a fact. Because religion encourages status quo, if left in control, while the State does not. That is the nature of the beast, right?

Stuka/Dulla Bhatti and tahmed32 . . . I say and I say again, and I maintain and I also ask you to come down to grassroots . . . Muslims in India are treated best out of Muslims in Islamic countries like Pakistan, Kuwait, Saudia. For too long have we in India been beaten with a stick over episodes / blots like Babri/Gujarat, while the real perpetuators of crimes against Muslims are countries which are called ``Islamic . . .`` If you want generalisations and perceptions, fine, go walk about in Kuwait or Saudia or Pakistan as a Muslim with a line of thought even slightly at variation with the one prevailing/ruling thought. And if you want numbers, hard facts, then start by defining a Muslim in Pakistan, a Muslim in India, a Muslim in Saudia and a Muslim in Kuwait.

In India, I know of no law or definition that is legally tenable that removes women from equal status in Islam. I know of no law or definition that removes the various sects and sub-sects from equal status in islam. Forget all that, the option of a common civil code is available by choice to everybody including Muslims.

Can anybody say the same about Pakistan or Kuwait or Saudi Arabia?

(I am and was not comparing any of ``our`` countries with the West.)