The changing face of America

re:#67 by ahmedmadani
Ahmad Madani Sahib,
I always liked your posts. But this particular post was unpleasant for me. So, i have some clarifications.
Indian lobby in US is indeed trying to project Pak as an aggressor and a sponsor of terrorism but it is targetting the dictator and the Military-ISI nexus. It is not targetting the people of Pak. Vajpayee started people to people interactions but Pak`s military dictator did not like it and stopped it. He only wants to talk about Kashmir.

India is not taking away US jobs. US corporate greed is making sure that they transfer a chunk of jobs to India, China etc to make a profit. The bottom line in US corporate world is : profit. Regardless of how this comes about, profit means more money for creating more jobs. Of course the jobs lost to India, China etc have to be replaced by other high end jobs or these jobless workers need to be retrained but Corporate America understands this as a ``ncessary evil``. That is how free market works. During the worst Wall street crash in the 1930s, thousands of American workers actually migrated to USSR for jobs!

So, you are wrong when you say India is taking away their jobs. India has become the natural destination of these jobs because of talent and human skills available in abundance there. If Pakistan were not involved in Jehad, Terrorism (IT in Pakistan means International Terrorism and not Information Technology) and if Pakistan had a good name, these jobs would come to Pak too. If Pak had sued for peace with India, it could have taken advantage of tremendous opportunities that have opened up in that part of the world.

But your military dictator is not interested in any of this. He only wants Kashmir. And he wants US to keep supporting him so he can keep ruling Paksitan like a personal fiefdom. Meanwhile he keeps impressing the local crowd by blasting off Korean made misslies repainted as Shaheen or Ghauri or what not.
Pakistanis must realize the harm this dictator and Army is doing to their country. India is not their enemy. Their own people are their enemy.
Sridhar

Ponytail Walae Romair:

[I think Hajj should be shifted to Swizerland or Montreal. Or the Hajj should be online. Virtual Hajj. You log into a site, and carry out the Hajj from the comfort of your home, with some kind of hologrophic technology. I think you may be overemphasising the Umra. It may be better to use the money and take a trip to Barbados. I plan to do that when the Pakistan cricket team tours next.]

Why did you perform your Hajj ? Penance ?

ZahraJ #66,
``You are simply sick! Please get yourself treated.``

I thought we decided to give Naqshbandi the benefit of doubt regarding
his stands on various (non)issues. Kya hua ? :)

#70 Hamidm: Thank you for your kind support. That was so very sweet of you! By the way, some of my male cousins who themselves are quite well versed in religion, have no issues with me leading the prayers. To my surprise, one of them even asked me once to do that. His family women were a little taken aback, but he was insistent. Personally, I did not feel comfortable and declined the request. But I must mention that on many Pakistani American Seminars, at the prayer time whenever men disappear for prayers, I always follow them. They are so damn mean that I cannot tell you. They would never let the women know where they are off to and what they are up to? I simply detest them for this hurkat. My 6th sense tracks them. And I always offer my prayers with them. Sometimes, I did find raised eye-brows but who gives a damn. Why should I deprive myself of offering my prayers in a Jamaat? I would kick a man in his rear for being a roadblock there. By the way, the latter step is yet to be performed. I hope that desire gets fulfilled in my lifetime :)

On inheritance: according to the Islamic Law, on a minimum a woman gets 1/2 the share of what a man secures. But it`s on a man on how he wants to divide his assets. So, if my father wants me to inherit all his belongings, I am entitled to getting that. By the way, I am blessed to be the daughter of a darling man, who always views his daughters equal to his son.


# 79 Romair: Both my siblings have performed their Umraas with my parents. And, it does hurt my well being for not being able to do that with my parents. I must mention that I do not have any personal grudge against the Saudis. Some of my family friends are Saudis and they are beyond any doubt gem of human beings. My mother tells me, during my parents` Hajj, how kind and helpful my brother`s best friend(a Saudi)was. I guess it is human nature if someone is kind to your parents, your heart goes out to them. Still, my late pophi would always speak very high of the said gentleman and his family; and my late aunt spent over 40 years of her life in Jeddah.

I`ve my beef against their policies on women. I cannot imagine a strange man(shurtas) touching a woman`s hair and making her cover her hair. How much more can you insult a woman of your own religion ? I mean if I have to seduce a man, I would go somewhere else. I have all the freedom in the world to do so in the land of freedom and choice. Why would I opt to go to the holy land to seduce a man or elope with one? On the same lines, what`s the rationale behind my landing in Jeddah with my mehram? Why cannot my mehram join me at the Jeddah Airport? Or be there to receive me? It does not make any sense.

On top of it, my last phone call to the Saudi Consulate resulted in a very strange response from the man on the other end. He told me that the office was about to close and I should call back in the morning to chat. The expression he used has a different connotation. I do want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but somehow I did not like his way of delivery. I had a genuine question and responding to a question is not chatting. Probably, he used a wrong expression or probably it was a figure of speech and as a jahilae` mutliq I did not get it...whatever. It did not sound right. I did not like it. I am going to complain about that as well.

In that respect, I do feel that my friend`s observation on the prevalent corruption amongst the muslim men may have been an appropriate observation. Living in the West, one takes many things for granted. Most importantly, you are who you are. No game playing and hoodwinking. Many times it`s a shock to comprehend the male attitude even in Pakistan. Let`s not touch another can of worms.

Then they chant about the respect that is granted to the Muslim Women in the Muslim Countries. Must have been a story from the Arabian Nights!

So, what did Prince Qabaa`d Sheheryaa`r tell Shehar`zaa`d?

Sweet dreams, I guess....

*79 Romair: i do not comment on your comments as I have no knowledge about your topics of interest.
You are wrong. All BROWN and BLACKS ( NON WHITES) people are not treated well in arabia so there is no discrminiation of any sort.
ONLY ONE COUNTRY IS HELPING PAKISTAN IS SAUDI A. EVERY YEAR SAUDI ARABIA GIVES 1 BILLION DOLLRAS TO PAKISTAN IN TERMS OF SOF( SAUDI OIL FACILITIES). DO EXPAKS CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING IN THAT ORDER? SAUDI ARABIA IS NOT THAT RICH> ITS PERCAPITA INCOME IS LESS THAN ISRAEL( EVEN BEFORE ADDING AMERICAN GIFTS TO ISRAEL). THERE ARE MANY DIRT POORS ALSO , LOOKING FOR JOBS

THEY SAY ITS NOT GOOD TO BITE THE HAND WHICH IS FEEDING YOU.

ref #76.. Hamid2 . I am stopping, time to head home and home troubles aftre few hours of well earned sleep.

For you satiafaction
: Punjab is full of cultural scene. From Intricate jumping and shouting is methodical way of life, is called ``bhangada`` way of life. Wine and country liquoir are intricate part of ancient culture and ,so much so older preislamic times people used to be buried with wine drums to enjoy in future life.
Punjabi men and women muslim , hindu, Sikhs has great knowledge of chemistry and interest can only be satisfied by tasting of wine. They are educated people and left ancient stupid Punjabi and adopted Urdu from hindia as they are sensetive and picked nice words like all hindi moves from India.

There very sofiscated and THEIR AGRICULTURAL WAY OF LIFE APPEARS AS GREAT CULTURAL DRAMA surpassing all habitatants of all other provinces of land of pure.

In Kingdom of King Mo. ZIA the first the cultural scene reached zenith. For entertainment sinners were flogged by hunter. Good things do not last too long and in air accident King died. Then all cultural collapsed as Hindus armed with TV cables, hindi movies and songs attacked. Presently again cultural scene is rising as King maker a great ``Choudhary`` is trying best. It is so advanced in animal cultural a Buffollow from Lahore animal beauty contest. New kite flying is revived. Even EXPAKs are return to lahore , saying lahore has nightlife first after Mughal time. That is limit. Shift is over. Bye

Re AirMarshal 79

For once we agree. Your Hajj in Montreal reminds me of a story about the Libyan dictator (knowing his weird personality, it is porbably true). In the eighties Libyans were banned from Hajj for a couple of years because of Muammar`s antics. In rage, he had asked his Rev Command Council to build a Kabaa in Benghazi so that his pilgrims could do Hajj outside of the reach of the Saudis.

Indeed the SAudi kingdom, its entire society is a bigger LONG term threat than Iran or Iraq. I mean these people teach hatred to young kids and practice slavery and bigotry openly. Like yourself, I`ve never found anyone returning from KSA to have anything but nasty things to say about the bedouins there. Similarly, with one singular exception, I`ve never met a SAudi expatriate with any tahzeeb, taaleem, or tarbiyat.

Don`t worry, the SAudis` time will come too. Right now, it is Syria`s turn. Did you see the House IR committee approved the Syria Accountability Act which the president has finally said he`ll sign. Amen.

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ZahraJ #83: ``Why did you perform your Hajj ? Penance ?``

I performed Hajj because my parents told me to, and because it is on the Islamic checklist. I only fast on the weekends, pray only once a day, didn`t get a chance to go into combat during the military days, thus, unlike NazarHayatKhan, I didn`t get the Jihad column scratched. So I had to get something checked off. Though I am not quite sure whether mine counted, since I was a bit young at the time.

I think Hajj is a great thing. Muslims from all over the world, in one place, with no difference between rich and poor, no sectarianism, wearing the same clothes, getting to know each other, getting exposed to other cultures, seeing the historical sites of their religion first hand, all the while scoring big time points with the Man upstairs.

Watching thousands of Muslims performing the same actions, in an egalitarian (if somewhat disorganized manner) is a sight to see, and something which will always appeal to me. If and when Muslim countries reach the first-world, imagine what kind of social, cultural and philosophical ideas could be interchanged at such a gigantic multinational gathering. Even if one looks at it from a non-religious/secular point of view, it would make the Toronto film festival, the Davos convention, and the annual session of the UN look like a small coffee party.

So I have no problems with Hajj. It is perhaps the greatest social/religious gathering in the world. I just wish it wasn`t in Saudi Arabia. At least, not in present-day Saudi Arabia.

I am afraid I cannot share your positive comments about Saudis. I am sure there are a few good guys there. But on the whole, what you are experiencing isn`t just the Saudi govt. It is the Saudi society. They are Taliban with money.

For starters, they are a heridatory kingdom. This in itself is against Islam. They are racist, specifically against Pakistanis (and South Asians). This goes against rule no. 1 of Islam. They treat women like sheep. While Islam, even by early 20th century standards (if not by 21st century standards) liberated women 1400 years ahead of other cultures. They have different pay structures for goras and desis, for the same job. This goes against Islam. So on and so forth.

I was taking a taxicab during Hajj in Saudi Arabia. A Saudi kid was driving it. Half way during the ride, he stopped the cab, in the middle of the desert, and told us to get out. And just left us there. For no reason.

Many years later, I took a Saudi Air flight from Lahore. We were stopped on the door of the airplane, and the attendant started searching our hand baggage. In most airlines, they say, ``Welcome`` at that point, and smile. When we reached Riyadh (or Jeddah, can`t remember), we were hauled up in a group, and literally escorted like sheep from one end of the airport to the other, without being able to take a step in any other direction.

Saudi govt. does help Pakistan at the national level quite a bit. But, at a social level, Saudis consider Pakistanis second rate people. I have never quite figured out why many Pakistanis still keep singing their songs of praise. Either I don`t understand Saudis or they don`t. I personally feel that anyone who treats someone like a second rate person should be avoided or be treated in the same manner.

As I suggested earlier, Hajj is nice (though very inconvenient in Saudi Arabia). Visiting all the historic places in Mecca and Medina is great. But Umra maybe a bit over-rated, especially if they are not letting you go by yourself. Ironically, during the tawaf, men and women walk together, right next to each other, without problems. In fact, a lot of them make a lot of effort to kiss the Hajra-Aswad (Istilam?). And from what I have been told (didn`t pay much attention to it myself, so it is heresay), due to the massive crowd, many of the men and women actually miss the rock, and end up kissing each other.

You may want to try attending the Raiwind seminar, if the Umra doesn`t work, for you. It is the second biggest religous gathering in the world after Hajj. Though I am not sure whether they allow women to attend. I am seriously thinking of going. Those Tablighi Jamaat guys seem quite different from the Jamaat-i-Islami and JUI types. People go to that seminar and come back a changed person. In many cases, forgetting about family and friends and becoming full-time Tablighis. This is why my wife won`t let me attend.

Or I suggest a vacation in Istanbul or Venice, if the Saudis won`t let you in. I am sure those cities have mosques there. And believe me, Europe, even after 9/11, is a lot nicer than Saudi Arabia.

The final choice would be to get Hamidm to act as a mehrem. I am sure he would oblige. I bet you ten bucks, he is a closet Haji.

P.S. I did my Hajj, back in the old days, so Mecca and Medina may have become more organized, by now. And a piece of advice: if the crowd is huge during the tawaf, and you are having difficulty moving, look for the group of tall Black guys from African countries. Get behind them. They are very good at clearing the way.

This article and the subsequent interacts brings out a few things which need to be stated in Black & White here:-

a) Muslims and others seem to be treated better in the US than in Saudi Arabia, but they are treated the best in India.

b) People want chocolates on the tray while flying, but will not buy them before boarding.

c) Saudi Arabia`s economy is built around the Hajj, and they will not let that go, while in other religions you can have multi-location centres.

d) Queen Latifa and Chaka Khan are not Muslim enough for more than a few other Muslims, worldwide. Nor is Mohamed Ali the boxer.

e) Everybody cries about a few hundred Muslim prisoners in Guantama Bay/Cuba, incuding latest the BBC, but nobody cares about the thousands including Muslims who dis-appear regularly in the jails of the Middle East Arabic countries.

Dear Zahra:
More power to you:-).
I recently met a Muslim Indian at a party who narrated the wows of his sister. She is married to an Irish Canadian who was posted to Saudi Arabia two years ago. The poor woman has been trying to be with her husband ever since but has always been refused visa. Imagine! a muslim woman cannot go to Saudi Arabia but her Christian husband has no problem!

Romair:
Virtual hajj! Time for ijtehad?:-)

ahmedmadani:
It is rare that I have to disagree with you but I have to make an exception about your old joke about the agri-culture of Panjab. I think it`s time that we Panjabis give up our complex in this regard. Panjabi folk music is second perhaps only to Bengali in its richness and variety. Panjabi wedding songs, in particular, are full of sweetness and melancholy; my eyes still well up when I hear a song like `saada chidiyaan da chamba ve, babul asaan ud jaana` or `maanvan te diyaan mil baithiyaan ni maaye`. or `madhaaniyan, hai ve merya daadya rabaa kinaan jamiyan kinan ne lai jaaniyan`.
Since you travel a lot in India, I am surprised that you did not notice the `panjabisation` of Indian culture. Panjabi salwar-kameez -we still call it by the original name salwaar; I dont know why Pakistanis added an `h`, even old Pakistani films used the proper name!- now is the universal dress of girls, even in the south where they call it `panjabi`; panjabi dhaabas reign supreme on the Indian highways; panjabi cuisine like naan, tandoori chicken, tika, daal makhani, butter chicken are now synonymous with Indian cuisine even outside India; the wedding scenes in the Indian films - and not just Monsoon Wedding - are typically panjabi; the Indian pop music is full of Panjabi or a mixture of Hindi-Panjabi songs, even in Hindi films; one hears panjabi pop even on the sand-dunes of Jaisalmer and the cruise boats of Goa; while Panjab has not produced high culture dance form, bhangras are the dance-de-rigeur at every baraat and wedding. Not bad for agri-culture wallahs!
If Panjab did not produce great literary works in the past, it was because Panjabis had, under foreigners` influence, abandoned their language and preferred Urdu-Persian as a vehicle for their literary expression. This is now changing, at least in India, with people like Amrita Pritam and Shiv Kumar Batalvi producing highly respected literary works. If Dullabhatti is looking in, he could produce a more contemporary list in this regard.

zahraj,

.......... muslim women fully deserve what they get .......... actually they are more guilty than the bearded men for their continued second class status............. the mullahs might be misogynists, but the muslim women are masochists who keep on defending the ``faith`` even as they walk in through a small back door to the mosques .................. like ``house niggers`` they are not comfortable coming in through the main entrance ......... as a matter of fact they demand a ``sister`s entrance`` ............ they happily don the hijab, a symbol of their servitude; they put on abaya sacks and wear dark glasses; they sit behind a screens so that the men cannot see them; they mock women who speak up against hudood laws and call them kafirs; they happily accept the role that islam officially granted them fourteen hundred years ago ............. and they spout off the same nonsense as their men about how the arabs were burying their daughters before gabriel entered a dark cave ............. drivel and kaka!

............ you made your bed, so lie down and stop complaining!

p.s so why didn`t you take up your cousins` offer and lead the prayers?.......... and why do you have to sneak after the men at paki-american functions so that you can stand behind them and debase yourself ?............ next time follow me to the bar - i have no qualms about having a drink with a woman ...... heck i will even buy............

zahraj--the logic in your post is flawed: yes all those acts are haram in islam which you mentioned (zina, etc.) and many muslim men are unfortunately players like you say (as are muslim women too btw) but that does not make it any more jaiz [permissible--using technical fiqh terminology] for you to commit another haram by going to umrah without a mahram. As to whether the acts have any moral equivalence i cannot answer that but i do not think so but what i can say is that haram is haram. It is haram to drink alcohol and it is haram to do zina and it is haram to disrespect your parents. All 3 of these are considered haram in shar`iah. whether one of these is more haram than the other I do not know and you would have to ask an alim. But they are all haram and we must try to avoid them.

Here is an answer I got from a traditional Sunni (non-Wahabi) source on the www to a q similar to yours:

Pilgrimage:


Hajj without a mahram?
Answered by Shaykh Abdurrahman ibn Yusuf

Question: I am an adult woman (unmarried) who can afford to perform Hajj, alhamdulillah. However, my father has passed away and I have only one mahram in the country where I live, namely my younger brother. My brother is not employed and unable to afford to perform Hajj. Is it permissible for me to wait until my brother is able to afford to go on Hajj and then go with him? I could pay for his trip; however, would I be excused if I didn`t go as yet?

Assalamu alaykum

In the name of Allah, the Inspirer of truth

Haj is necessary for a woman if she has a mahram [unmarriageable kin] or husband to accompany her on the journey. This means that she has to have a mahram or husband who is willing to go along. If a mahram is willing to go along but does not have sufficient funds for himself to make the trip; or has sufficient funds but does want to spend of it, then she is obliged to pay his expenses too if she has the means to. If she does not possess the means of paying his expenses, then haj will not be necessary on her (Radd al-Muhtar 2:145, Muallim al-Hujjaj 84).

In your case, haj would be obligatory on you if you brother is mature [or close to maturity but is sensible and understanding] and is willing to accompany you, and you have the means to pay for his expenses as well.

Regarding the sin in delaying it, it is stated in the al-Durra al-Mukhtar that it is prohibitively disliked to delay it once it becomes necessary upon a person. However, according to the stronger position if the person performs the haj prior to dying the sin is lifted (Radd al-Muhtar 2:140)

Wassalam
Abdurrahman ibn Yusuf

Source: http://www.sunnipath.com

veeresh #90 just one minor point about muslims being better treated the best in India: I read your post out to the people who died in Gujrat, and they all rose from their graves and voted a unanimous ``Yes``. I went to this joint where the Babri masjid stood, and was pleased to see volunteer workers from all over India rebuilding the mosque.

You can compare India to Pakistan and say that at least you have muslims in India while we have very few hindus (with exceptions, like this one chap in the Pakistan cricket team - and dont ask me his name since someone told me the other day and I fogot). But to say that India is the best is going way too far. They dont have mobs attacking muslim family homes in the US (or Europe or Canada or Australia or Thailand or even in any African country) while the governor (like Modi) looks the other way.

vereesh #90: I didn`t know you were so into hip-hop.

Is Queen Latifah a Muslim? I have read that Ice Cube is a Muslim also. As is Public Enemy. Or they have some relationship with the Nation of Islam.

Hi Romair 91, no I am not really into Hip-Hop but happened to see the credits for Chicago and also forgot to mention Paula Abdul. Sorry. Or Cat Stevens too. My question is and was, are they Muslim enough for you?

tahmed32, thank you for earnest endeavours in bringing up Gujarat and Babri Masjid. Please be aware, also, that there is a system of redressal in India, and slow or otherwise, it tries to work.

Now tahmed32 would you take your earnest endeavours a bit further and try to address the issues of Muslims in Bangladesh vis-a-vis the heroic West Pakistani Army, enough graveyards there? Or maybe you could address the issue of Palestinian Muslims and how they are decimated in the ultimate free teritories of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Hey, how about Ahmedi Muslims in Jhang, and if the DM flogged them for distributing sweets and making merry, thus disturbing the equanimity of other Muslims? As a matter of interest, since we don`t have one in India, could you puclish the grading list of the various kinds of Muslims on a 1-10 scale for us, please?

I normally don`t get into these f/a/r/t/i/n/g competitions, so excuse me . . . but if you look at my post 90 again, I did not mention Pakistan. So why are you, tahmed32, jumping up and down trying to be as popular as a cat at a dog-show?

Yes, Gujarat was a blot. So was Babri Masjid. That, and other blots, are the price we pay in India for something called freedom. You wouldn`t understand that tahmed32, and let me assure you, that has nothing to do with your being a Muslim. The accident of fate that you are a Muslim and I am not has nothing to do with the Gujarat blot. The reality that I am willing to accept it as a blot, but you cannot see th same blots, is probably to do with the flies in your eyes, not mine.

Matter of fact, tahmed32, would you like to explain here what your concept of being a Muslim is?

That was my question to this Board, if you look at #90 again.