The changing face of America

veeresh #96 I seem to have touched a sensitive spot here. You compare India to Pakistan - but I already said that you can do that (``You can compare India to Pakistan ``). What you cant compare India with, far less claim India is the best as you claim, is most of the rest of the world. Not even African nations, let alone the US or Europe.

Time to get off that ``Most Moral`` pedestal, n`est pas??

Tahmed32, #97, Sir, I do not compare India to Pakistan. There is no comparision possible between any countries, leave alone those with common histories. I do not say one is better, one is worse.

I am asking you, tahmed32, to define what your concept of being a Muslim is. And after that, let us try to analyse whether India and/or Pakistan is a good place for Muslims or not.

No comparisions with Pakistan. Unless somebody wants to start a debate on whether Pakistan is a good place for Muslims to be in. And for that, we shall have to go back to Pakistan`s definition of being a Muslim.

While here in India, we are quite clear about the definition of Muslim. A Muslim in India is, simply, another Indian, like a Hindu or a Christian.

Can you, tahmed32, say that a Muslim or Hindu or Christian in Pakistan is simply, another Pakistani?

So it all goes back, tahmed32, define your concept of a Muslim first, then define the position of a Muslim in Paistan, and then we proceed.

The sensitive spot is encouraged by a childhood Muslim Indian friend staying over for a few days at my place, standing right here behind this keyboard, and after some time I have to go with him to his ancestor`s graveyard for some prayers. What most moral pedestal, as I have said before, and I say it again, some accident in the past makes me a Hindu and him a Muslim. So we live with it, and let others live.

(But what about you, tahmed32? You can`t even define Muslim. Shame on you.) In brackets courtesy my friend.

Veeresh:

On one hand you use the word ``best`` and on the other, you say that comparison between countries is impossible.


You say...

``Please be aware, also, that there is a system of redressal in India, and slow or otherwise, it tries to work. ``

I was in Delhi when the 1984 Riots took place. Almost 20 Years, not one conviction. The only redressal that took place was when certain Sikhs took matters in their own hands and killed Lalit Maaken who was very much involved in the riots.

Contrast that with American system of justice. The killer of a Sikh is given death penalty in less then two years.

TAhmed is certainly justified in bringing up Gujarat, Babri, Meerut, Provincial Armed Constablury etc etc. India may be better then Arab countries in looking after minorities. Maybe Pakistan as well.

My point is not to just bash India but to pout things in perspective. Law and Order, governance etc. does not exist in equal measure to all communities.

Stuka 88, thanks, the way I would like to see it is that justice and injustice are applied equaaly across the board to Indians, regardless of religion. There was injustice to countless people in Punjab in the `80s, Hindus and Sikhs, and it goes, till today, unpunished. Please try to view the 1984 anti-Sikh riots as a part of that larger series of injustices?

As far as punishing specifically the main perpetuators of the `84 riots through the legal process is concerned, well, atleast the matter is still alive and being pursued, it is another matter that perception is that Tytler, HKL Bhagat and Sajjan Kumar seem to have a large number of Sikh supporters themselves.

My point to tahmed32 is simple - before he gets on his high horse trying to be the sole saviour of Muslims in India, would he like to define Muslims? And then we move from there?

#77 Romair
You make a lot of excellent points. Regarding israel vis-a-vis american foreign policy, it`s quite telling that the support of terrorism that Bush has been talking about has been the $10K reward that Saddam Hussein was offering the suicide bombers. Syria harbors ``terrorists`` that don`t in any way threaten the US but are moral enemies of israel. Iran is on its trigger sight for the same reason. Saudia poses no danger to israel and thus is no threat to the US. The jewish cabal (wolfowitz, perle, etc.) has taken over american foreign policy and is fighting israel`s wars by proxy..

#94 tahmed32

[quote]
What you cant compare India with, far less claim India is the best as you claim, is most of the rest of the world. Not even African nations, let alone the US or Europe.
[end-quote]

Oh, hear we go again. I have noted previously the fascination of our pakistani friends with european countries (sweden), canada etc. These are always proposed as ``fair`` comparison for India. But apparently India should not be compared with Pakistan, Bangldadesh, Sri Lanka, China, Nepal, Iran, Afghanistan, Thailand, Malaysia etc.

What kind of nonsensical logic is this? A third-world country with a remarkable functioning democracy is to be knocked to the ground because it doesn;t compare with countries that have 20 times the per capita income??? If you guys are so impressed with Canada or Sweden, why don`t you work on changing Pakistan to be more like them? How come I never see an article titled ``Ten Steps to make Pakistan more like Sweden``? Huh???

It all comes down to this. The infidel (India, Israel, USA etc.) are always to be held to high standards around secularism, human rights etc. But the blessed ummah is already there

---

no need to worry about these issues at all.

What a loser and hypocrite you are !

Romair: Your post had way too much cynicism and your argument on performing the Hajj is amazingly mind boggling. Do not tell me the next time your parents ask you to jump into a ditch you will do that without a second glance. Mainly, since they are the parents and they are right. Point is that you should jump into a ditch becasue YOU want to. Not because you are asked to. But thank you for sharing some personal experiences. To each their own!


Hamidm: I do not disagree with you on your remark about Muslim Women leading themselves to be the second class citizens. I do believe that you get what you strive for and strive to be. But you are missing a point. It`s real important to choose your battles carefully depending on how much time you have on your hands. Who leads a prayer and who follows has nothing to do with one`s ego. It would even defeat the purpose of the actual prayer. Hopefully, you won`t communicate such absurd ideas to your daughters. Please be reasonable when acting as a mentor to anyone.

To clarify, my point was that in a gathering where men are in majority, and they disappear without letting the female participants know that they are off to prayers, is pretty damn rude. I admit my foolishness to expect any such politeness from the uncouth species.

Rest of your gibberish was the working of a weak mind. Probably, it`s time for you to give some rest to the weak neurons.

Best Wishes...

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zahraj,

............at one mosque i sometimes go to for laughs and biryani, the women actually campaigned for a separate women`s entrance and asked that a partition be put up between them and the men dor dinner ............. and these women are not your uneducated and uncouth bedouin types - some of them are higly ``educated professionals`` .......... actually the hooded islamic nun who was spearheading the campaign is a board certified psychiatrist!.............. like i said moslem women deserve what they get............so stop whining and go serve your man who is is your majazi-khuda ............

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#96 and various other posts of viresh... reg...

In response to various issues that have come up during veeresh`s posts....
His thinking reflects that of a vast majority of hindus... that muslims are just Indians like any other Indians... we look at them as just Indians and not as muslims... (99% of the time)... just like this guy, most of us are bold enough to submit that things like Gujrat violence, Babri are blots on Indias secular image... It would be foolish to conclude that these are fall outs of general ire of Hindus against muslims... it is non existants... like many others here, I have good friends from muslim community.. may be it would be worth mentioning that a muslim guy whoom I barely knew sent me an invitation to his sisters marriage.. just as a gesture of courtesy....

we realise quite well that political forces are trying to divide the society along the lines of religion... and let me assure you that you will find more opposition from the hindu community for such attempts... (say Cong(I) for example is predominantly hindu.. and so is the left... and so is lallo, so is Computer Babu Naidu (CM AP).. and Mulayam(to a point that he was called a mullah!)....

ofcourse the reasons are obvious.... when it comes to votes.. they like the minority votes...

Tahmed: Sorry for the delay in acknowledging your very saintly post. And, I truly mean it. I see your point and I want to appreciate it for the message it conveyed. Thank you for bringing forth a very humble perspective. And, it is not everyone`s cup of tea to even go there. That`s very unique and sweet!


Asif N: I have a flawed argument? Really? Wa`qaiii? I am glad that my flawed argument boosted your morale and revived your confidence! Hope we are square now! Do you even know what is the implication of Haram and Mamnoo`? Are you even able to distinguish between them? If not, then I suggest that you avoid using strong expressions like ``Haram`` in a casual stride. Your flippant expression may have a different implication for your reader. Ok. And, with due respect, you are not the guardian angel of Islam. Please back off! I hope Plats8 is happy now!!!

By the way, I have many uncles and cousins who reside in America, and I should not have any issues in asking one to join me. Somehow, as an adult and a professional independent entity, it`s against my well being to be chaperoned. I am not a baby. And, probably to shock the hell out of you, my uncles and cousins who view me as an independent entity will also think on the same lines.

It all boils down to one thing and I have to spell it out. As a woman, we take many things for granted while living in America and it hurts your finer senses to even envision how your gender is perceived in other parts of the world, claiming to be the protectors and guardian angels of your religion. And, that`s the bottomline!


Hamidm: I need to give you some feedback here. You may have a very valid point but your articulation screws up the message. I did not like the way I wrote the beginning of my earlier post. Instead of saying that I agree with you, I opted for I do not disagree with you. Somehow, I could not come forth and tell you that I completely agreed with you on that particular point. Just because of your weird way of conceptualization and articulation. Probably, that`s how you are cut out; but there are repercussions that you should be aware of. I am not that kind to invest my precious time in making a man understand my rationale on a discussion board so calmly, somehow realizing your challenges softened my heart.

By the way, I have yet to step in a mosque in the last 6-7 years or so. During those 6 - 7 years, I only stepped in once or twice to find a corner where I could concentrate amidst the hustle bustle of life. I have very limited to zero exposure to the kind of crowd you are referring to. I may not see them eye to eye in their outlook towards life, but I won`t be ever condescending towards them. Real enlightenment kicks in when you accept people for who they are and what they are vs. how you want them to be. If you want everyone to follow you in these mazha`ka`khae`z scenarios then there is no flavor in life. You are dead!

Now, listen to me very carefully - do not die in your life. Ok!

That`s it from my end on this insightful, heartfelt and sweet board.

Bye Bye All.

veeresh : When you ask me to ``define muslim`` isnt it a bit like Clinton saying ``define sex``? You are both avoiding the issue. Does anyone in India really have a problem identifying himself as muslim or hindu? Lets get serious.

We can have a theological discussion on what it means to be a muslim (and I think i have discussed this question often enough on chowk), but that is not the point. The point i am making is a very simple one: you go too far in saying India is the ``best`` when it comes to treatment of muslims. All I am pointing to is that things like Gujrat killings with the acquiescence of the state police and governor simply have not happened in the US. (look at this very article, where the writer is whining about not being given chocolates with her hilal food by the airline and blaming it on Bush).

pmishra #103 I have no wish to discuss anything with you. Thank you and have a nice day.

ZaharJ #102: ``Your post had way too much cynicism and your argument on performing the Hajj is amazingly mind boggling. Do not tell me the next time your parents ask you to jump into a ditch you will do that without a second glance.``

I am not a psychiatrist, but I think one`s values in life are generally influenced by what one is taught by one`s parents. I am a Muslim, because my parents were Muslims. Had they been Hindu, I would have been a Hindu. Parents set one`s priorities early in life, and nearly everyone generally follows them throughout. You want to perform an Umra, more than likely, because you were born to Muslim parents, and through them you learnt about Islam, and this taught you the importance of Umra. In essence you are also want to perform an Umra, because your parents told you it is a good thing to do, indirectly.

In my case, I actually did Hajj because my parents told me it was a good thing to do. I was too young at the time, to have really discovered Islam. It was whatever my parents and friends etc. had taught me. That is why I stated maybe I was too young for it to have counted.

Since then, I have grown older, and I have discovered Islam on my own. And have developed my own ups and downs for it. In fact, I think more people should try to discover it on their own, rather than relying on ulema etc. But, I would have never even have considered Islam an option, had I not been born to Muslim parents. Probably, nor would have most Muslims.

Now my belief in Islam is 100% because I feel it is the right path. If I didn`t feel that way, I would switch religions and forget about Islam (rather than remaining a Muslim, not having the courage to switch religions, and still making fun of it, like many on this site do).

I can understand how my reply could seem cynical. But I think you are mistaking my attempt at humor with cynicism. The gist of what I was saying is:

- I think Hajj is a great thing. I try to look at all Islamic, ``things`` from a practical point of view. If Islam is the true way of life, then its actions have to make sense in a secular or non-Muslim sense also. I think Hajj should be a great social union and gathering of Muslims from all over the world, where they carry out their religious duties and exchange ideas, also, on all subjects. I don`t think its purpose is (or was) to just carry out rituals, and only feel good about carrying out rituals.

- I have a lot of issues against Saudi Arabia (which apparently you do as well). I think Saudis at a social level are a racist society - even for South Asian men. I think at a political level, they are autocratic rulers, and are using their wealth to create problems for Muslims all over the world. Whatever little or great racism Pakistanis may start feeling in the USA, will have nothing to do with what the Pakistanis did (even illegal immigrant Pakistanis in USA are successful). It will because of what Saudis have done.

Based on this, I think, during the current time, Saudi Arabia being the, ``center`` of Islam is a liability to Islam. It wasn`t a liability during the early days of Islam. But it is now. That is why I said I have issues with going to Saudi Arabia for Hajj (as you have as well). Had it been in another country, you would have gotten your visa also.

So I think Hajj is great, but Saudi Arabia is not so great. Hajj is great, if it along with the religious rituals, it is used benefically as a huge social gatherings of Muslims to exchange ideas also.

Umra I think is ok. But, there maybe other better ways to spend that money, if you ask me. Like donating the money to someone. But that is just my opinion. I always had issues with people who did ten, fifteen Hajjs, just for their own purificaiton. Nothing wrong with it. If one has the money, why not spend it on Hajj. But I still fell their are other ways to spend it.

Hope that makes my position clear.

P.S. There is something interesting I have noticed about Muslim women. I guess it is actually a good thing. Non-Muslim critics of Islam always point out how Muslim women are mistreated by Islam and are thus at a loss. Yet, I have always found Muslim women to be more attached to Islam than Muslim men. Invariably, Muslim women are more sensitive towards anyone making fun of Islam, than Muslim men. I have never heard of any Muslim woman switching religion. While Muslim men do switch religion (though rarely). One would think that Muslim women would be switching religion, left and right, if they felt as oppressed by Islam, as the critics of Islam point out.

Even on this site, there are Muslim men, who have made a career out of making fun of Islam. Many have nothing else to offer. Yet, I have maybe seen only one or so Muslim woman on this site, who openly makes fun of Islam, or has shown any desire to switch religions (something which some Muslim men on this site have done). Invariably, all the misguided and cynical comments about Islam on this site, come from Muslim men.

One could, maybe conclude, that Muslim women are actually more attached to Islam than Muslim men. This would go agaisnt the theorists who claim that Islam suppresses women.