India and Pakistan: The Stark Reality

#360 coolAL

I have not condemned anyone by association with the Gujarat killings. WHy should I condemn people who have no connection to it? How can I condemn 1Billion indians when maybe 5000 people participated in the violence. But what about the goverment at the time? Should we not condemn them?

I am also well aware also that in many ``advanced`` countries, upto 30-40 years ago, there used to be mob killings and very poor policing.

However, the gujarat killings deserve reflection. The victims deserve compensation and justice. Definitely we need more investment and training in our police forces.

Saying things like ``its natural`` is sick and only ensures that soon there will be more killings of this type. Maybe they will be directed at your community or at mine???There is nothing natural about murder of innocent people.

Nice article, but the author is wrong with his conclusion.

Democracy has saved India and has earned it respect of the comity of nations that matter. Pitted against a formidable foe, the lack of it may reduce Pakistan to only a sad read in the annals of history. The reality is stark.

Partly he is right. But even democracy isnt going to help Pakistan. Pakistan inherent hate-India attitude is what is hurting Pakistan, not lack of democracy. All thanks to Jinnah`s stupid TNT.

LOL! I am really enjoying the farce that is Pakistan!

Afro-Asian Medal Tally- 29.10.03

The figures tell all:-

Country Gold Silver Bronze Total
China 17 6 3 26
South Africa 12 11 13 36
Japan 9 3 1 13
India 8 21 21 50
Nigeria 6 6 10 22
Algeria 6 6 4 16
Korea 6 4 4 14
Kazakhstan 4 3 5 12
Ethiopia 3 3 1 7
Kenya 2 0 3 5
Namibia 2 0 2 4
Sudan 1 2 0 3
Iran 1 2 0 3
Uzbekistan 1 0 2 3
Seychelles 1 0 1 2
Vietnam 1 0 0 1
Cameroon 1 0 0 1
Senegal 0 6 3 9
Philippines 0 2 7 9
Thailand 0 2 3 5
Egypt 0 1 3 4
Indonesia 0 1 1 2
Cote dIvoire 0 1 0 1
Qatar 0 1 0 1
Sri Lanka 0 0 3 3
Zimbabwe 0 0 3 3
Chinese Taipei 0 0 2 2
Libya 0 0 1 1
Malaysia 0 0 1 1
Uganda 0 0 1 1
Pakistan 0 0 1 1
Overall Total 81 81 99 261

Ref Field Marshal #330

[There is a place called Gerrard Street in Toronto. Apparently, the largest South Asian food center in North America. It has some good Vegetarian restaurants.]

You just got beaten by the Intrepid Journalsit from Bombay. To think that you could have written an article on Life in Canada!

[Haven`t seen an Indian restaurant named after Aurangzeb, yet.]

Worked with an Indian named Aurangzeb, though.

[A growing trend is the Halal Chinese restaurant....Never saw anything like that in the USA.]

There is one right in your former backyard. At the strip mall near the intersection of I-880 and Calaveras Blvd (southweat corner, Ranch 99 Market is the big store there, you need to negotiate the mousetrap of an intersection there and figure out a way to get there), you have a halal Chinese restaurant with pictures of the mosque in Mecca on the walls and not a single item with ham/bacon in it.

# 358 pmishra

+++++++++
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Have you every heard of 9/11 terrorism??? 15 muslim terrorists murdered three thousand innocent american civilians. The goverment immediately made it clear that itwould not tolerate revenge killings. Maybe about 8-10 people were assaulted and indeed even some were killed. Immediately, the goverment ensured that harsh punishment was given to criminals. Some were given death penalty.
..
+++++++++

While not disagreeing with the thrust of your point, I have to point out that the US did commence dropping diasy cutters on Afghanistan killing scores of civilians. So much for their ``tolerance``. They called them ``Collateral Damage``. I am sure you feel as strongly for the poor Afghan farmer who got hammered by his own people for 20 years in a civil war and then got hammered again by the ``good guys`` who informed him that it was for their own benefit.

Let us look at another example of the US dropping cluster munitions and MRE rations in the same area with simililar looking packaging. Now this caused hungry children to desperately go and seek these to eat and KABOOM. I don`t see them going round and round wringing their hands and endlessly rehashing their decisions now do we? Please understand that I am not saying that we ape everything that the Americans do, but why not be consistant across the board?

With regard to what happened in Gujrat, what do we gain by this endless self flagellation and rehashing the same thing over and over again with no new ground being covered. I come from a state where there was absolutely no disruption in life due to these riots. The overwhelming public reaction was that of contempt and disgust at what Modi and his goons did. That was the case with ALL the remaining states in India. That shows tremendous progress in the past decades vis-a-vis community relations. Why is that point being pushed under the carpet?

Well, the point of this post is to say that shit happens. About what happened in Gujrat, I am not saying that it is right -- no, not for one second. But shit happens. We acknowledge it and try our utmost to make sure it does not happen in the future and move on. The justice side of the equation should be handled by the judiciary. Regardless of how chaotic and inefficient and corrupt it seems from the outside. I have faith in it -- warts and all. So should all Indians. Nobody is perfect here. But a strong independent judiciary is a MUST for our survival. What we don`t need is the kind of ``tactically brilliant`` solutions being foisted on the people of Pakistan by their Army in the name of National Security.

I will conclude by saying that I have decided to stop apologising for what happened in Gujrat. I had nothing to do with it and I nor my family and friends subscribe to that kind of mob mentality. Regardsless, of all the poisonious propaganda emanating from both within India and outside, I am certain that an overwhelming majority my compatriots also feel exactly the same way I do. Therefore, if people insist on genralizing the mob behaviour to the rest of India, I reject that outright.

#355

[quote]
Well - not too difficult really , when the competition comprises of the likes of Laloos and Mayawatis and Mulayams. Also, Gujarat economy is doing pretty well. About those `few thousand innocents ` who Modi supposedly had killed - that was just a natural reaction of the people of Gujarat to the brutal massacre of 57 hindus , most of them women and children by a muslim mob. Suppose a mob of American muslims or British muslims set fire to a sunday church , burning alive a few dozen women and kids - what do you think will the reaction be in those countries ? Same as in Gujarat , maybe even worse. Tolerance has a limit.
[end-quote]

This is simply proof that you have no understanding of the word ``tolerance``. Killing muslim families in ahmedabad because of atrocities in Godhra against hindu pilgrims is barbaric and animal-like behavior.

Have you every heard of 9/11 terrorism??? 15 muslim terrorists murdered three thousand innocent american civilians. The goverment immediately made it clear that itwould not tolerate revenge killings. Maybe about 8-10 people were assaulted and indeed even some were killed. Immediately, the goverment ensured that harsh punishment was given to criminals. Some were given death penalty.

It is sad that educated people like you are fooled by nonsense like ``limits of tolerance``. How can you randomly attack a group of innocent people? And the goverment does nothing to help???? This is as bad or even worse than jihadi violence.

Romair # 330

``In Canada, Pakistanis seem a lot bolder and do put up, ``Pakistani restaurant`` or at least, ``Indian-Pakistan`` restaurant under the names. ``


``A growing trend is the Halal Chinese restaurant. ..... Never saw anything like that in the USA``

I guess you have never been to Houston. Both of the above can be seen there.

gujjubania:
[Suppose a mob of American muslims or British muslims set fire to a sunday church , burning alive a few dozen women and kids - what do you think will the reaction be in those countries ? Same as in Gujarat , maybe even worse. Tolerance has a limit.]

There could be a similar mob reaction. But there would not be the same kind of official reaction. The Republican or Democratic Party will not call for a bandh which everyone would correctly assume to be an open call for mayhem on the minority. The Governor of New York will not justify the retaliatory attacks, the names and addresses of Muslims will not be provided to those leading the mobs. And most important of all, when those threatened by the attacks call the police, it will come to aid the victims, not to facilitate those who are killing and burning the houses of the muslims.

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Pakistan gives nuclear know-how to Saudi for Oil. Latest news.

http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=20031020-115059-8319r


Pakistan-Saudi trade nuke tech for oil
By Arnaud de Borchgrave
UPI Editor in Chief
Published 10/20/2003 7:00 PM


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Oct. 20 (UPI) -- Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have concluded a secret agreement on nuclear cooperation, an unimpeachable source said Monday.

``It will be vehemently denied by both countries,`` added this ranking Pakistani source known to this correspondent for more than a decade as a knowledgeable insider, ``but future events will confirm that Pakistan has agreed to provide KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) with the wherewithal for a nuclear deterrent.``

In a lightning, hastily arranged, 26-hour ``state visit`` in Islamabad, Crown Prince Abdullah Abdulaziz, Saudi Arabia`s de facto ruler, flew across the Arabian Sea with an entourage of 200, including Foreign Minister Prince Saud and several Cabinet ministers. The pro-American Saudi Defense Minister Prince Sultan, who is next in line to succeed to the throne after Abdullah, was not part of the delegation.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf met Abdullah at the airport and saw him off Sunday night with a 21-gun salute.

In Washington, Mohammed Sadiq, Pakistan`s deputy chief of mission, said Monday the report about Pakistan and Saudi Arabia reaching agreement on nuclear cooperation was ``totally wrong.``

``This is against our policy,`` Sadiq told UPI. ``Pakistan would never proliferate its nuclear technology. It`s a very clear policy. This was not even discussed in the talks we held with the Saudis in Islamabad this week. It was not even on the agenda. It is out of the question.``

The Saudi Embassy in Washington did not immediately comment on the report. A joint Pakistani-Saudi communiqué posted on the embassy`s Web site concerning Abdullah`s visit to Islamabad mentioned only an agreement for ``the maximum utilization of the existing economic potential of the two countries.`` There was no mention of military cooperation, nuclear or conventional.

The CIA believes that Pakistan already exported nuclear know-how to North Korea in exchange for missile technology. Last year, a Pakistani C-130 was spotted by satellite loading North Korean missiles at Pyongyang airport. Pakistan said this was a straight purchase for cash and denied a nuclear quid pro quo.

This correspondent and the chief of staff of the North Korean Air Force stayed at the same Islamabad hotel in May 2001.

``Both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia,`` the Pakistani source explained, ``see a world that is moving from non-proliferation to proliferation of nuclear weapons.``

Pakistan, under the late dictator Gen. Zia ul-Haq decided to pursue the nuclear option following India`s first nuclear test in 1974. Pakistan`s nuclear arsenal is now estimated at between 35 and 60 weapons.

The Sunni Saudis have concluded that nothing will deter Shiite Iran from continuing its quest for nuclear weapons. Pakistan, on the other hand, is openly concerned about the recent armaments agreement between India, its nuclear rival, and Israel, a long-time nuclear power whose inventory is estimated at between 200 and 400 weapons. Iran and India, located on either side of Pakistan, have also signed a strategic agreement whose aim is regarded with suspicion in Islamabad.

Pakistani Prime Minister Mir Zafrullah Jamali is scheduled to fly to Tehran later this week to sound out Iranian leaders on the reasons for the defense deal with New Delhi.

To counter what Pakistani and Saudi leaders regard as a multiregional threats, they have decided quietly to move ahead with a two-way exchange -- free or cheap oil for nuclear know-how and expertise.

Pakistani pilots have been employed as contract pilots for the Royal Saudi Air Force for the past 30 years. Several hundred thousand Pakistani workers are employed by the Gulf states, both as skilled and unskilled workers, and their remittances are a hard currency boon for the Pakistani Treasury.

In their private talks, according to the United Press International source, Abdullah and Musharraf also discussed the possibility of Pakistan supplying troops, not to Iraq, but to the kingdom. Abdullah can see that the world`s largest oil reserves look increasingly vulnerable over the next 10 years.

By mutual agreement, U.S. forces withdrew from Saudi Arabia earlier this year to relocate across the border in the tiny oil sheikhdom of Qatar. Saudi officials also remind their interlocutors that a closed meeting -- later well publicized -- of the U.S. Defense Policy Board in 2002 listened to an expert explain, with a 16-slide presentation, why and how the United States should seize and occupy Saudi oilfields in the country`s eastern province.

Richard Perle was then the chairman of the Pentagon-funded Defense Policy Board. Later in 2002, he resigned the chairmanship following a conflict with his business interests, but he remains a member of the influential panel.

Perle is also known throughout the Middle East as one of the key architects of Operation Iraqi Freedom and a former strategic adviser to Benjamin Netanyahu while the latter was Israel`s prime minister.

The denials of any secret nuclear agreement between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, the source said, ``must be seen in the same context as Iranian denials about its own nuclear weapons plans.``

Prior to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, along with the United Arab Emirates, were the only countries that recognized and aided Afghanistan`s Taliban regime that had been educated in Pakistan`s madrasas (Koranic schools). Taliban is now resurgent along the mountainous regions that straddle the Pakistan-Afghan border. Pakistani and U.S. Special Forces have been working the area in tandem since last summer to flush out Taliban and al-Qaida high altitude hideouts.

Pakistani officials are also fearful that the Bush administration will leave them in the lurch after al-Qaida leader Osama bin laden has been killed or captured. They also speculate about what the policy would be in the event of a Democratic Party victory in the 2004 U.S. elections.

To this day, the Saudi clergy continues to fund Pakistan`s madrasas that are a substitute for the country`s non-existent national education system. The only schools outside madrasas are expensive private institutions. Pakistan, with a crushing defense burden, only spends 1.7 percent of GDP on education (vs. 8 percent in India and 16.5 percent in the United States).

Some 12,000 Koranic schools provide free room and board to some 700,000 Pakistani boys (ages 6 to 16) where they are taught to read and write in Urdu and Arabic and recite the Koran by heart. No other disciplines are practiced, but students are proselytized with anti-American, anti-Israeli and anti-Indian propaganda. By the time they graduate, the majority is convinced that becoming a jihadi, or holy warrior, is the only way to block America`s alleged plans to destroy Islam.

Musharraf, in a milestone speech three months before Sept. 11, 2001, denounced the danger of these schools and urged syllabus reform.

``We are producing terrorists,`` he warned at the time.

But all attempts at reform have been blocked by the mullahs with the support of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal -- a coalition of the six major politico-religious parties -- that now governs two of Pakistan`s four provinces.

Musharraf has opted for appeasement of the MMA rather than confrontation. At the state banquet for Saudi Arabia`s Abdullah, the principal MMA chieftains were invited and attended. The two traditional mainstream parties were not present. They were pointedly left off the guest list.

Copyright © 2001-2003 United Press International

Gujjubania #348,

``Although India still has a plenty of poor - they are no longer representative of India.``

Yes, they are. They are as representative of India as anyone else. Just wishing them
away is not going to work. The wealth generation through IT and a few other sectors
has largely untouched the urban poor and completely bypassed the rural poor.

``240 million Indians are poor - but apart from a few thousands in far off tribal areas ,
none are so poor not to be able to afford food``....

Are you being really serious ? Forget about the villages, do you think the poor in the cities go to ``bed`` well-fed ? Do some serious searching on the web about what the daily calorie
intake of a person should be (to qualify as being non-hungry) and where India stands on
that scale. Comparing with Pakistan is not going to make you feel any better - Pakistan
simply does not have these levels of urban poverty. About the Orissa deaths last year,
would you like for me to post the relevant url`s ?

Secularism in the Indian context means a lot of things - often times it means conflicting
things. Such conflicts always exist when you are trying to build sustainable institutions
in a fledgling democracy. Of course, it is so much easier to be flippant and dismiss the
entire effort. Your creating ridiculous strawmen (as if the right-wing really cares for the
integrity of India, whatever that is) is just that.

``Narendrabhai Modi along with Naidu is the best administrator in the country and the booming Gujarat economy is testament to that. The people of Gujarat will only do what is right for business.``

Of course they will. So what if a couple of thousand innocents die in the process ? Let me
ask a couple of questions, though. What qualifies Modi as the best administrator in the
country ? I assume it is not the ability to terrorize a significant fraction of his own
population. Anyway, a serious response would be appreciated.

#283
++
Therefore, i do believe that the government did not ask me or my fellow citizens before any ``intensive operation`` in Kargil. No poll is conducted when we launch rockets and bombs. No one asks us what we want. As for the people not demanding that we give away Kashmir, I think is a part of a huff-puff patriotism, not genuine nationalistic pride.
++

.... Kargil was an occupation of Indian territory by the enemy ... I have never come across such a stupid complaint that the Governament didnt hold an opinion poll or ask your kind consent... I see no need for such stupidity... it is not a video game!!...

did u realize that NDA made kargil a poll issue!! did u realize that they came back to power easily only because of Kargil.... did you not read news paper reports on public reaction to Kargil success??...

huff-puff patriotism!... could be true in your case....

Confession!
I just managed to control myself from calling u a paki!!! lol....

ps:-- sorry for delayed response and hope u get to see this!!!

gujjubania!
You are right.
How well did modi manage a pogrom!

#348 by gujjubania
While i agree that poverty in India is decreasing, it is by no means as spectacular as you make it out to be. In order to understand poverty in India, you need to understand how India became poor. British rule was in a large way responsible for much of poverty you see in India today.
http://india_resource.tripod.com/eastindia.html
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=319601
British rule was followed by stupid economic policies of Nehruvian era (all the way to Rajiv Gandhi), that increased poverty and institutionalised corruption.
What we are seeing today, following the era of gradual liberalisation, is the reduction in urban poverty. I am not sure if rural poverty is touched at all. Rural India still depends on monsoon and agriculture and its poverty is not going to be reduced any time soon. IT or the recent economic boom means nothing to rural India. I hope you understand this.
Also, you come up with this figure of 1-2% of population going hungry. Please let us know where you got this figure. My guess is the figure is much higher.
I am not trying to be funny here. One has to be honest about the nature of problems that confront India. Just gloating over recent economic success in some areas is not going to do any good.
Sridhar

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