India and Pakistan: The Stark Reality

...goddamn yankees and marlins....

godot,

A remarkably blunt article. I`m too much of a ``non expert`` to say if your conclusions are valid or not.

I`ll tell you my own personal observations; as a LAY person. Unlike my friend Romair, I havent known or met the ``who`s who`` of Indian society. My family & friends are successful professionals in govt & pvt enterprise & 1 Lt Gen (retd) uncle. These people dont DIRECTLY formulate Indian policy; but they definitely shape it. So I happen to think I`m not completely off the mark.

I visited India, this July, after 10 yrs. 10 yrs ago ``liberalisation`` was just starting in the Indian economy. Ten years later, I can see very tangible benefits.

Before I go into benefits, I`m not saying India is on the road to economic paradise...far from it..the poor in India seem just as wretched & ubiquitous , as they`ve always been..(they live in gut-wrenchingly miserable conditions...that ...even to a person who has lived his first 23 yrs india...it hits you in the stomach... when my plane touched down in Bombay).

But some things in India have FUNDAMENTALLY changed for the better.

The middle class has definitely swollen (balooned), in fact, in numbers...Consumerism has taken a firm foothold. Even communists, socialists, leftists have grudgingly acknowledged that the only way to improve the economy is to get the govt out of it & encourage the pvt sector to grow. Unfortunately, being a huge, cumbersome, imperfect, lumbering ``democracy``...changes cant be implemented as quickly as say, China or Singapore. However, Nehruvian socialism is DEAD! (Thank God)

In the 70s, young men like me were COMPLETELY disillusioned with India. My classmates in medical & other schools couldnt wait to get the HELL out of India. Not so this generation. I`ve talked to many of my nephews ,nieces & friends` children. They may want to go abroad, but most would like to come back to India. Opportunities for ORDINARY people with an education has definitely improved.

What was starkingly different was what the education system puts a poor Bombay school kid through. It is much more intensive & rigorous today, than when I was a kid in the 70s. These kids go to school from 9-5 & then after school they have ``tutions``

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which are no different from ``cram schools`` of Japan & Korea. Having a highschool kid in the US public school system, leads me to believe that American kids are positively ``lazy``!!:))...

I`m not saying that that system is necessarily better or worse. It just gives the Indian kids a better disciplined life & perhaps more capable of coping in an increasingly shrinking & competitive world.

The standard of living of most people I`ve come across has improved. Even the servants, drivers` & dhobi`s kids-- that we middle class kids grewup playing with

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are in entry level white collar jobs, much better educated & wealthier than their humble parents were.

There is no craze for ``phoren`` or ``imported`` goods that we used to have in the 70s. Indian TV offers both national & international channels of such variety --that a kid like me who grew up with a few measly hours of boring, frikking doordarshsn--positively green with envy.

Oh well, I guess the point I`m making is that the average Indian I came across seemed more satisfied with his/her life & more OPTIMISTIC about their future in India than what I was in the 70s. Indians freely admit that compared to China & other Asian Tigers we have`nt performed as well. However, there is new found self confidence in Indians that they can compete with the best in the world. Indians ( I guess like Pakistani) diasporas abroad, have higher per-capita incomes than the native populations they live in.

With 20/20 hindsight...its not democracy or dictatorships that determine economic growth. Its how rightist or leftist your govt is. The less govt interferes with pvtr enterprise the better the economy gets. No matter where in the world

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if govt runs a business

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it becomes a MESS. So even ``communist`` countries are now actively encouraging pvt enterprise. Alas, India realised that much later...but thanks to visionaries like Manmohan Singh...Nehruvian socialism is dead. In hindsight, it was ``socialism`` that India (& most S.Asian) countries adopted that killed our economies.

What do the people I know feel about Pakistan? Alas, the dominant discourse I came across is that the biggest sticking & irreconcilable point is that of Kashmir. It is the LAND thats the issue here. At the most Indians are willing to concede is making LoC a permanent border. It was uncanny what my uncle (the Lt Gen) said.. ``Too many of my collegues have died in wars. Giving away territory is an insult to their sacrifice.`` Its amazing how soldier boys (no matter where in the world) think in the same way. So I`m not optimistic about Indo-Pak relations in the futuire.

I think the Pak army is firmly entrenched in the fabric of Pakistani society. That is a stark reality. Wishing it werent so wont change a thing. Pakistan cant & wont remove the Army.

It doesnt matter if Pakistan`s (esp Musharraf) throws tantum upon tantrum at the UN, OIC...the world wont pressure India, on Kashmir....PERIOD!!!

If there`s a head to head competition between India & Pakistans, I guess Indian diplomats have outwitted & outplayed their Pakistani counterparts. Or maybe Pakistanis diplomats are too dumb...I dont know....
The way things stand today... heck....even the Kurds have a better chance of getting independance, than Kashmiris.

Unless & until Pakistan does what Nazar sahib suggested (take a principaled stance on Kashmir, but put it on a backburner)...things wont change.
Remember, India seems quite content with the status-quo. Pakistan ISNT!!!

#229 by anil on October 17, 2003 9:25pm PT
Dear Ballukhan (#224):

Join, if you can..., and make a difference.

ANIL KAPURIA

I am willing to pitch in my bit.!!!

manto,

.......... chota, guddu, billa and karmoo do not represent the man in the street any more ..........they fell off the roof and died ten basants ago ........... now it is abdul, and he is to be found not only in the gali kuchay of mardan and gujranwala, but also in the streets of algiers and jakarta..............

manto,

.......... chota, guddu, billa and karmoo do not represent the man in the street any more ..........they fell off the roof and died ten basants ago ........... now it is abdul, and he is to be found not only in the gali kuchay of mardan and gujranwala, but also in the streets of algiers and jakarta..............

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``We have saught enemy and we got it.`` [ahmedmadani]
One short sentence says it all!

Romair:
One could never guess from your posts that your favourite Pakistani journalists are Sethi, Amir and Cowasji. There is very little common in their writing and your thinking.

Mantolives:
Cowasji is the only Pakistani journalist I know who still can say nice things about Yahya Khan.

ahmedmadanisaab (#231):
As always, an extremely perceptive post. But I have some points to add…

[the Indian hindus are Antipakistani due to Kargil and just plain lieing by our military President. Muslims of India are started resenting our attitude as they feel they have to live in India and all Freedom fighting may be going at their cost. First time symbolically Muslims are saying that]

No, Indian Hindus are anti-Pakistan because of the history of Partition, the fear psychosis created by the West, the bluster of our own political parties to get electoral mileage out of this enmity. The common Indian does not care about Kargil (even less about our Defence Ministry making money over coffins for our soldiers). And most people don’t care about who rules Pakistan because no one rules it long enough. I think it is the Indian Muslim attitude Pakistan must worry about, and you are so right about that.

However, I do not think Indians are concerned about which dictator you have...and you have had only dictators, some cleverly garbed as democrats.

[Indians have no desire to take Lahore at all.]

Absolutely. It is another matter that some Indians want to take Lahoris...

[I am afraid secular Congress can be worst. Secular promuslim Congress leader cut pakistan to size not this hindu fanatics.]

Yes and no. The leader who cut Pakistan had nothing to do with being pro-Muslim. Please do not confuse issues. The Hindu fanatics have a larger agenda; they are not interested in cutting Pakistan but cutting India. If you believe that these parties are the ones that will get Indo-Pakistan relations on their way to peace, then you are mistaken. The symbolic gestures will be used as a sword over the heads of the Indian citizens and to twist the arms of genuine movements. We have a history of animosity, and this was long before infiltration started.

You know better what system of governance is good for your country, but let me tell you that even without army rule India’s Defence expenditure merely along the Siachen border could provide for better amenities for a large section of its population. And this approach existed even when you had elected leaders. Democracy is something that needs to be seen in perspective and not merely as an empty ideology.

Regards,
Farzana

godot:
Stop being so patronising! Besides, my song would be more like, ``Mere saaqi ko nazrein uthaney tau do/jitney khaalee hai sab jaam bhar jaayenge.``

And thanks for saying that you can never be mad at me...I shall take the liberty of your democratic license and respond to a few issues raised here, not directly related to your article. I suppose it is ok?

To those sending emails:
1.You say you are regulars at Chowk. I am not sure whether you use other nicks or merely lurk here. I think my views on democracy have already been expressed, and on several other issues throughout. I am sorry I cannot reply to mails regarding my political/social/psychological views; we have a forum here. It is open to all.
2.The sarcasm re. my response to Anil makes no sense. I am sure he has read my articles and knows that I am not out to kill any section of the population. If he is a Kashmiri Pandit (something I was unaware of), then I take it as compliment that he thought I could be of any help, despite my views on J&K.

If he has any doubts about that, it is still not an issue. I will merely direct him to the relevant organisations and he can proceed from there. There is nothing hush-hush about it; communication via email for this purpose was merely a matter of convenience. I am not affiliated to any political/religious/militant outfit, for god’s sake…I am making sure the NGOs are above-board, which is why Anil will have to wait.

PS:

Ayaz Amir is being presented as an admirer of Musharraf... maybe my English Comprehension skills are poor... but I don`t find anything in Ayaz Amir`s writings to suggest that.

Maybe the word `tinpot` that Ayaz Amir keeps using for Musharraf means something else to Romair...

Romair,

As someone who has met Sethi many times, I can tell you that he is not happy with the way things are run in Pakistan by Musharraf... Ayaz Amir has always been an open critic of Musharraf and a major nuisance for the General.

As for Cowasjee... yes you are right ... Cowasjee is from the old british school... he is not a believer in democracy per se... and believes in efficient administration, instead of peoples` power... he yearns for the Curzonian type / Ataturk type fatherly rule in Pakistan... instead of democracy who he believes throws up leaders like Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who he hates. He forgets that Jinnah himself had been a legislator schooled in the British parliamentary tradition, and that the last decade of Jinnah`s life was spent achieving the representative status for his party from the masses.

Maybe Cowasjee is right... the upright and honest men of the Raj did rule this region better than our politicians, and even politicians in our neighbouring country... but his optimism that the `brave` soldiers of the Pakistan Army can be in any way in the tradition of Curzon or Ataturk is unfounded and imaginary... Curzon would not indulge in the kind of shameless power play that General Musharraf has... Curzon was very conscious of his duty and his role as the Crown`s representative in India. Kemal Ataturk shed his uniform and he was the embodiment of the nation`s will... Musharraf is a despised man on the streets of Pakistan.

It is very hard to find another Curzon, Ataturk or Jinnah... These men are few and far between even a Mahatir is hard to come by in Pakistan... we can`t gamble on individuals anymore... the only solution to Pakistan`s ills is a strong democratic tradition... and without that there will be no Economics... the `recovery` you talk about is superficial... and if you believe it to be genuine, then I am afraid... you have zero understanding of Economics...


Shaheen Sebhai is not the first journalist or writer to be driven out of Pakistan by military dictators... One of Pakistan`s greatest writers, Quratulain, was weaned out by that smart Indian prime Minister Nehru in the 1960s, when Ayub the A-hole no 1 put his draconian anti-freedom of speech laws in the country. I was amazed to read that it was the same Quratulain who in 1947 at the age 21 had moved to Pakistan voluntarily to serve the new nation in the Ministry of information. This is how we alienate our true patriots... it is all the doing of this `Army` the curse of the nation... remember this army never wanted Pakistan, and when Pakistan was made continuously tried to subvert the democratic government of the nation... going so far as to even challenge Jinnah himself. History is there... will anyone read it?

-YLH

HisExcellency #234: Sethi is a family friend. Actually, a family acquientance. Though I have never met him myself. I had written quite a bit against NS when he arrested Sethi. My two cents for freedom of speech, in Pakistan.

Pakistan interestingly has some journalists that have quite a bit of credibility. I would put Sethi, Ayaz Amir and Cowasjee in this category. These three are my favorites.

Sethi was picked up from his bedroom, in the middle of night, on the orders of Nawaz Sharif, by his goons. His wife was locked up in the bathroom. Interestingly, Nawaz Sharif wanted to prosecute him by getting the ISI to act against him, for his speech in India. The real reason was that Sethi had given an interview to BBC, for a program, which traced NS`s corruption. I saw the program. It was quite thorough. According to Sethi himself, Musharraf, then the COAS, refused to prosecute him, and got him out of NS`s cuistody. I think since then Sethi has had a soft spot for Musharraf, alongwith a soft spot for Musharraf`s secular style, which all English newspaper editors have.

Sethi now is editing a newspaper, though, which is owned by a PPPliya. So he seems a bit soft on the PPP now.

Ayaz Amir was in the Army, and in the civil services, and is now a journalist and politician. He is easily the best English writer amongst the Pakistani journalists. And he has a very good understanding of the internals of the military and its relations with politicians, since he has been a part of both. He became an MPA on Nawaz Sharif`s party`s ticket. Then he resigned in the middle of his term, because he was fed-up with NS. An MPA voluntarily resigning in Pakistan is unheard of. In this election, he almost won an MNA seat, on a PML(N) ticket. He was one of the few Muslim Leaugers who did not ditch Nawaz Sharif, even though he had himself resigned from his govt. So he has a lot of credibility, unlike journalists like Mushahid Hussain, who locked up Sethi, and then switched parties, when NS was exiled.

Cowasjee knows everyone and anyone, from Jinnah to Musharraf. He tells it like it is, and is so well-placed that he is not afraid of much.

Of the above, I think my views coincide with Ayaz Amir the most. I have exchanged emails with him. Interesting guy.

I would say, if anyone, wants to know what is going on in Pakistan, these three guys are a good reference. The rest of us, on this site, are just shooting from the hip. Deep down inside, all three of these guys like Musharraf. Primarily because he is secular and financially honest. Not to mention, for the first time Pakistan has a free press, so the journalists aren`t running for their lives. Cowasjee is the only one who openly declares it, though. They never humiliate him, in their writings, like they humiliate every other political leader. All of them think he is a good guy. Though they seem disappointed that he could have done much more. I would agree.

From whatever I have heard of Shaheen Sehbai, he is an opportunist. Ayaz Amir (and I think maybe even Cowasjee) openly pointed out his opportunism in an article.

Another writer I follow is Shahid Javed Burki. He is the Rhodes Scholar ex VP of the World Bank, and ex-finance minister of Pakistan. He writes weekly in Dawn, and I have read everyone of his articles over a few years. I have met him, as well. I think he, along with Moeen Qureshi, runs an emerging market fund in the USA. He was quite critical of the Pakistani economic managers early on. But now is bullish on them, and is positive on the Pakistani economy. He is an open fan of the Musharraf govts. policies. And thinks Pakistan`s economic future depends upon it.

I don`t know a single person in the Musharraf govt. I have no idea who Musharraf is. The only people I am still in touch with in the military, are a few friends, who are now Majors and Lt. Cols. I have been a civilian for two-third of my life, and will be for the rest of my life. In fact, I know more people in PPP and PML, than anywhere else. And my family, since its formation, have been active supporters of PTI, which is actually in opposition to this govt. My father was offered an MNA ticket by Tehrik-e-Insaaf in the last election.

However, I have been following these three or four journalists since the BB and NS govt. days. And I generally base my opinions on what they say, and on surveys carried out by magazines like Herald. And all of them, at various levels, say that Pakistan is slowly recovering. Though it could, and should, be recovering at a faster pace.

So, I have never bought into the doomsday scenarios that are painted by many Pakistani cynics on this site. Perhaps I have too much faith in the capabilities of Pakistanis. Or perhaps I am just overly optimistic. Or perhaps my assessment is correct. However, I do know one thing: Optimists may fail, or they may succeed. But cynics always fail.