India and Pakistan: The Stark Reality

#161 by arjun_m

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HisExcellency: this is what the US thinks of paki terrorism
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Dude, the report is about Dawood Ibrahim (an Indian national), not Pakistan. Since Pakistan has already arrested more than 500 Al-Qaeda terrorists, refusal to arrest just one man (who was neither associated with 9/11 nor wanted in any US terrorist investigation) is not going to be a problem for Pakistan. Lest you have forgotten, Pakistan has already made it clear that no unilateral concessions will be made to India until the core issue of Kashmir is resolved. America can only pressurize Pakistan about matters that concern the US, since US is already compensating Pakistan with aid, debt writeoff, military assistance, etc.

They have leverage with us. You don`t. Unless of course you agree to discuss Kashmir and settle it amicably.

#158 by Romair

I am myself an avid reader and fan of Najam Sethi especially for his courage under Nawaz Sharif`s harrassment. Unlike Shaheen Sehbai, this man did not let his suffering (which BTW was much more than Sehbai`s) to affect his journalistic integrity and objectivity.

I am in agreement with you about Musharraf`s rule and the ills of ``feudal-led`` democracy. I n fact, I will go one step ahead of Sethi by recommending...

* Ruthless land reforms in Sindh and Baluchistan and elimination of feudalism. Give these lands to Haris and poor Baluchis.

* Controlled democracy for a period of 10 years. An elected PM, parliament, state assemblies may be given power. But finance/commerce/energy ministries must be given to technocrats. This can only be ensure by giving the President discretionary powers to nominate cabinet members.

* Grand operation against Sectarian forces

* Privatization of Tax Collection. This will plug the leaks in CBR department. Already tax revenues have increased by Rs 100 billion because of vigilance. Another Rs.30-50 billion could easily be raised by letting a private agency do this.

* Free hand to MMA to implement its Shariah laws without compromising on the operation against Al-Qaeda in NWFP. I would rather have an elected Mullah in power, than an unelected Al-Qaeda terrorist. This will also address the Pashtun grievances because of Musharraf`s about turn on 9/11.

#169 arjun_m, #232 HE

Here is an extensive account, from The News, June 2003, describing in detail the finagled figures of Pakistan`s financial managers:

What ‘lies’ beneath?

#169 by arjun_m

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Captain Clueless: Your expert comments on the 5.1% ``growth`` figure being achieved by lowering the numbers for the previous year to make growth look more than it actually is....
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Here is another one of those arjunisms. Dude, the growth target for 2002/3 was 4% and for 2001/2 it was 3.5%. The 2001/2 target was not met, since economy grew just by 3.1%. However, Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz decided that they will not revise the 2002/3 target down to 3.5% and will instead stick with the 4% target. In the end, they achieved a 5.1% target because of a bumper cotton crop and increase in exports. You forget that there are actually educated people on this forum who will not buy your BS that easily.

Dear Ballukhan (#224):

Join, if you can..., and make a difference.

ANIL KAPURIA

Dear Farzana (#216):

I have responded to you on your email. I can organize a ground swell support in Silicon Valley for adopt a kashmiri village project.

ANIL

Mr. Godot.

I felt you write up is very factual and may be some can find some difference but over all feel its truthful.

I have suggestion.
First I am pakistani in Pakistan so obviously it is more important than what expaks feels as if some things happen expak can have his forbidden beer and alcohol he can abuse India and can flip to some interesting channel.

I am suggesting some idea but it appears its time has not come may not come at all next 56 years.

Pakistan should not be afraid of India.
We need to seek transition to ``real`` peaceful relationship with India as say Peru has with brazil or Mexico or Canada is with usa.
Real means real. We should real stop influx of freedom fighters in Indian held kashmir. To improve atmospheric support india for Seat to uno. I have relatives and I travel to India. Presently what no pakistani govt could not do that army govt has done. Just as mood of Pakistani is Antiamerican , the Indian hindus are Antipakistani due to Kargil and just plain lieing by our military President. Muslims of India are started resenting our attitude as they feel they have to live in India and all Freedom fighting may be going at their cost. First time symbolically Muslims are saying that. As one muslim in India told me whenever Pakistan starts acting they get tension. I am not smart or highly intelluctual - BUT till this president is in power there is no absolutely chance of peaceful actvity from indian side, as all Indians(almost) i have talked (like real indians who drive you around 900 miles in four days). ( well some may point to Ms. Roy etc believe most indians are not aware of existance of this person, similar to influence of famous ``india pakistan friendship society`` leaders in pakistan.)

India has border with nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, burmah, lanka, and little island states(vicinity). Indians have lived with this neighbours,, with normal problems. They have not invaded any of this countries. Pakistan is much more strong. Indians have no desire to take Lahore at all. Most hindus ``feel` division is practical. I never met a hindu in India who wants to put tricolor on Islambad. All these nations have no arm strength compared to Pakistan.

We have saught enemy and we got it. Indian kings have not invaded utside their country or tried to impose even culture. The influence in Thiland, China, japan, Cambodia, Laos, burma, ceylon is peaceful. If one is rational one can see little mendinf from ouride can get lot response than thundering noises. If our govt stop real change and stop crocodile tears for ``oppressed`` of India things can improve. People who are over patriotic can call Pundit Wajpai fascist and Nazi( its common way to say when has no real argument) etc, I am afraid secular Congress can be worst. Secular promuslim Congress leader cut pakistan to size not this hindu fanatics.

If inflitration of freedom fighters stops and getting out of fiction of nonexistences of freedom fighters coming from pakistan , Indians will respond. People and nations change according to times.

The chopping of east pakistan has created great hatred in Minds of pakistanis and its natural as our county lost half population. India was not going for kill long time. India was hinting through poland `` polish compromise`` fully to avoid war. But we had now leader of intelluctual capacity to realiaze. Most Chowkis may not remember but this was indian last ditch effort to solve peacefully. 1965 war was started by pakistan under foolish assumptions, no country will participate in war with handicap. If one looks at history many times when when aggression is started most times at end aggression making party looses.

If war is not option then peaceful coexistance is solution.
I hate EXpaks who want to start war for their ego satisfaction. I have not seen superpatriots from both sides adding any thing but just hate and hatred.

This arm chair people discussing Global positioning all garbage talk. Yes we can send few atomic bombs and kill few millions and damage few things but overall its not going to stop massive retaliation by India. Let this super patriot expaks spread maps of india and pakistan and study.
we have about 7 ( really 6) industrial zones and 8 major cities. If 6 industrial belts just receive nuclear blasts, blast spillways of two major dams ( near by generators will be history), sui gas fields ( really they can blast 8 gas pumping stations, they can leave gas fields), few loading and unloading giant cranes at Karachi harbour,country can come to standstill. So nuclear retaliation can be more devastating without not killing even few million people.

I feel prosperity and democracy may have relationship( one can find examples as you wish). I am convinced democracy only will and can lead to real peace. As if army is taken out of decision making bolden elected leaders can look for real efforts. ( Army has vested interest, they are not impartial, its doctors dilemma, if patient is cured he is out of business, cured but not fully then he is in business).

Time has come, all other avenues have failed try real peace feeorts not freedom fighters killing people every day and expect enemy will talk.

( all is half heartedly done, if freedom fighters then give pension to dead, honor them, this policy can backfire as more F.F are killed and theirs kins will one day satrt askin g army to do some thing. Way to hell is with good intension).
Real peace efforts are needed present effort for both side are just war byother means.

re: arjun_m

Since we are playing the game of ``pick-my-favorite-email``, here is one from Times of India that shows the frustration of an Indian at India`s failed mobilization and role as world`s ``cry baby``. Happy reading!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/opinions?msid=239064#top0

``Why do Indians cry for US help ? I have read comments after comments where people project the US as doing nothing regarding terrorism aflicting India and decry US`s hyprocricy. Well, why are you begging the US. If India knew about something, go and act. The truth is that India does not have it in them to credibly prove anything about Pakistan to the World and more importantly it cannot do anything. Remember the almost year long positioning of troops along Paki border and then retreating - meanwhile Musharraf took it totally coolly``

#225 by bbabu

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No discussion about business acumen, work ethic and amoral nature of Chinese people. Contrast it with Pakistanis
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Even on work ethic, Pakistanis are not bad. Most Pakistanis whom I come across (except the spoilt elite) are extremely hard working and full of initiative. When you compare two nations of unequal size, you can only compare them qualitatively, and not quantitatively. From a qualitative point of view, China has better literacy rates and national savings rate. Its entire economy is export-oriented. Moreover, it does not have any lingering political disputes. Its expenditure on defence is small relative to GDP.

You missed the point in my post:

Chinese savings and literacy rates are higher because of communist policies and lack of political freedom. These things didn`t just happen. Through a conscious process of tradeoffs, the Chinese govt worked on literacy and savings by controlling other aspects of Chinese life. The state provided stability and used bureaucratic controls to industrialize the nation.

Chou Enlai and Deng Xiaoping sincerely believed that democracy and political freedoms are disruptive for economic growth and should only be ushered in when the economy has entered a certain comfort zone. Western economists describe the Chinese model as controlled capitalism for the same reason. Until 1980s, private entrepreneurs were not permitted to own businesses in China. This essentially means that the secret of Chinese development is largely systemic, not individual.

Hi Yasser . . . wrt you ```` Here is a list of `average` Pakistanis on the street: Chotay Gudu Pappu Mamdoo Bullay chacha Karmoo Allah Ditta Allah Wasaya ````

Don`t you have:-

Titto . . . Happy . . . Goldie . . . Bunty . . . Sunny . . . Tauji . . . Maamoo (in cop uniforms) . . . bagal vale netaji . . . fauji unkil . . . ??

HisExcellency #111

`` The Chinese model however, did not employ democracy to usher in economic growth. Chinese Communist Party imposed a one-party rule with controlled economy from 1949 to 1980. The Green Revolution, Cultural Revolution, Hundred Flowers Revolution and then ``Four Great Modernizations`` Movement that occured during this period were neither democratic nor transparent.

Clearly, the Chinese model is a case against democracy, not for it. They believe that today they are enjoying double-digit growth precisely because they established a sound industrial base through command-economy and stifled political activity until the 1980s. ``

Your problem is one of selective blinkers.

No discussion about business acumen, work ethic and amoral nature of Chinese people. Contrast it with Pakistanis.

#210 by anil on October 17, 2003 11:15am PT


Thanks You Sir!!
Your sentiments for commitment of your personal resources for Kashmir in such a constructive manner are laudable. All the chowkists who have contributed any of their resources to blow up the kashmir should hang their heads in shame!!!!

````Also, I am interested in adopting a village in Indian Kashmir with muslim, hindu and buddhist population. I dream of building a village level entire infrastructure economic, social and education infrastructure that especially empower kashmiri young girls and boys. If you know any organization who can help me adopt a small Kashmiri village please put me in touch with them.

Thank you.

ANIL KAPURIA ````

Hamidm,

Whats with the Abduls ? I have never met an average Pakistani named Abdul... even if he is Abdul Latif, Abdul Ghafoor etc he is `Latif` or `Ghafoor` or something like that... On another occasion Mr. Naqshbandi started talking about the average `Bakar` on the streets of Pakistan... come on give me a break ... Why can`t you expats get it right?

Here is a list of `average` Pakistanis on the street:

Chotay
Gudu
Pappu
Mamdoo
Bullay
chacha
Karmoo
Allah Ditta
Allah Wasaya


Please in the future choose from these names.

-YLH

The two-nation theory wasn`t uniquely the subcontinent`s in the late 1940s. It was unfolding in Palestine as well. And, at the OIC summit, Dr. Mahathir has excorciated the Jews even more bitterly than Musharraf has excorciated India.

It might be easier to think through Musharraf`s rage on Kashmir if we first try to think through Mahathir`s rage against the Jews.

Sometimes it is wise to walk a little in the other party`s mocasins.

Cooler tempers might prevail if Mahathir mulls over what he would have done in 1948 if he were a holocaust survivor. Wouldn`t he have done everything in his power to defeat the Arab armies that invaded Israel?

More importantly, Mahathir might want to mull over the fact that Palestine was a two-way street at that moment in history. Yes, many a Palestinian ( 0.5 million?) fled his ancestral home in the wake of Palestine`s partition. But at least an equal number of Jews got thrown out from Arab countries (from Morocco to Iraq) and even from Iran.

Today, the majority of Jews in Israel are Shephardic Jews most of whom have either lived in Palestine for centuries or are from Arab lands.

In fact, the downfall of the Labor Party in Israel and the rise of the hard line Likud is specifically related to this demographic mix - the better educated Ashkenazic Jews (of Yiddish heritage) yielding to the numerically dominant Shephardic Jews.

Needless to say, these Shephardic Jews have no reason to feel that they owe anything to the Palestinians who had lost their ancestral home. More importantly, the Shephardic Jews have genuine cause to resent the Arab countries that threw them out of their ancestral home in the aftermath of Palestine`s partition.

If Mahathir mulls over the facts, I am sure he`ll see how illogical and unreasonable it was for him to denounce the Jewish people.

More importantly, Mahathir will realize how unreasonable are those that will not settle for peace for anything less than the Palestinians` right to return to their ancestral land.

Last but not the least, Mahathir would be doing humanity a real favor if he can persuade the Bangladesh government not to push a war criminal as its candidate for Secretary General of OIC. It will truly make OIC a laughing stock of the world if it is already not so.

As for the subcontinent, it would do well to recall what President Clinton had told Pakistanis pointedly in his TV address from Islamabad, ``This era does not reward people who struggle in vain to redraw borders with blood``.

Pakistan doesn`t need more real estate. It needs to be more concerned for its own citizens. Bringing home the stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh (aka ``Biharis``), for example, surely deserves a higher priority than winning real estate in Kashmir. The ``Biharis`` after all do call themselves Pakistanis, Kashmiris don`t.

Hamidm, 220

The trouble with you is that you are too pessimistic and don’t give enough credit to Abdul. Yes, I know, he’s sold his soul to Allah Subhanotala. But why? In utter desparation, of course. Abdul thinks that, as the only resort, Allah will his “lift karaday”, as one Pakistani song goes, if not now then hereafter. It’s only when Abdul has his belly filled and has left-overs that he’ll start rooting for such losers as the Cubs and the Red Sox...that’s another thing...why doesn’t Pakistan have sporting leagues, like teams from Karachi, Lahore, Pindi, Peshawar, among many others cities, competing with each other for a championship...it’s such a great entertainment for the masses...Pakistanis can do so much, little things like that, to make the country better and unite it that way...it’s so sad...

godot,

............ of course i favor democracy and the right of man to drink himself to death if he wants to, but that doesn`t matter............ what you and i and the cubs and the sox think does not matter - what matters is what abdul thinks, and abdul has sold his soul to allh subhanwu talla ...............verily, we are doomed ..............