India and Pakistan: The Stark Reality

I wrote a note to Ms. F.V s response.
The editors decided not to Publish.
First time I have written a article about music appreciation. Let us see what happens if its worthy of publication.
Good luck for every body.

AlephNull #286
Indian governments subsidising higher education at the expense of primary education was taking away money from one government concern and putting it into another government concern.

I cannot recall any similar instance of governments funding the private charitable trust of a minister or Army official.

``For me, the definition of ``terrorism`` starts and ends at 9/11.``

That`s why people like you have neither any morals nor any principles.

BTW, lots of Pakistani policemen are running around looking for `terrorists` who kill minorities in Pakistan. Hope Pakistanis would switch to describing them as freedom fighters for Islam.

nazarhayatkhan #287

Wish your organization all the best.

The federal and provincial government funding of the effort is a matter of public record, one would guess. Not many may be able/willing to take on the enormous influence of old Sargodians to raise questions about it, thats another guess.

#285 by akhilesh

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Sadat Hassan Manto

Can anybody educate me about Sadat Hassan Manto
also where on internet cani find his works
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Saadat Hassan Manto was a famous Urdu short-story writer. He was born in Ludhiana and then settled in Bombay. During partition, he migrated to Pakistan. However, he remained fiercely critical of partition. Unlike most writers, Manto always picked taboo topics and unusual themes. Unlike other writers, Manto never portrayed his characters as perfect human beings. Instead he depicted them as sinners, poor, ordinary... and sometimes even evil. He finds virtue in people`s psychology, not their actions.

His famous compilation of short-stories Manto Nama has been translated into English as well. Unfortunately, they are all in print form, not on the internet.

farzana,

[...It has created an additional fear psychosis, especially among the Muslims...]

still no references to where you may have exposed the `blackmail of democracy` in the shahbano case, i see...

re: farzannana


{ not take away from my Indian-ness. }

...please, someone clamoring for any pakistani on chowk to sponsor her resident visa to pakistan shouldn`t be concerned about `indian-ness`...

re:#282 by Romair
The rot has set in Pakistan. Well meaning people like Qureishi have a long way to go before they can stem the rot ie if the military dictator and the corrupt regime allows them to. Remember the well meaning plans of your IT minister?
Sridhar

Farzana:

``So you too join the bandwagon about how much do I know about the common Indian.``

I am not in any bandwagon. I do say that the term ``common Indian`` is widely bandied about and much abused whereas it has no meaning. In a country of a billion people, no individual can speak for all. At most one`s opinions may reflect a point of view that may or may not be shared with others.


``I AM that Indian.``

You are one Indian, no more and no less. You cannot set up your parameters to define what constitutes the validity of being Indian.

``Since I am a tax-paying citizen with no political, religious affiliations at the organisational level, have had a decent education in India that I try to use to some benefit, and I do not think going to the slums is a part of my tourist itinerary. right?``

You are an informed and an educated cityizen and hence an asset. Constitutionally though, your vote is only as an uneducated daily wage laborer. There is, and can be no difference.


``Therefore, i do believe that the government did not ask me or my fellow citizens before any ``intensive operation`` in Kargil. No poll is conducted when we launch rockets and bombs. No one asks us what we want. ``


You expect standards that no government in the world meets. No country conducts referendums before conducting war. It should be illuminating to you that a government that loses power because of high onion prices, gains political power because of action taken in Kargil. See the corelation? Onion prices affect the common Indian on a day to day basis. Kargil did not. And yet the people, overwhelmingly, chose to grant political power on the basis of an event that had no affect on daily lives.

``As for the people not demanding that we give away Kashmir, I think is a part of a huff-puff patriotism, not genuine nationalistic pride. We will nto even agree to give up Dharavi, the largest slum in Asia...does that mean anything? ``

All this is your personal opinion and you are entitled to it. What you are not entitled to do is make it representative of all Indians. That`s all. At this point, the majority of Indians do believe it a matter of national pride to mantain the integrity of their country. In holding that opinion, they are backed by the Constitution of India. You have the freedom to hold that opinion in contempt, but you cannot disregard it.

Alephnull:
``It is perfectly in order for anyone at all – Indian, Pakistan, American, rich, poor, male, female, whoever – to ask whether an investment on that scale was justified and whether the money might not have been better, or morely equitably, spent on mass primary or secondary education, or on other undergraduate institutions.``

I have been asking this question for a long time. I find this to be the greatest hypocrisy of the Nehruvian socialism. It used public funds- generated largely from generally regressive taxation- to subsidise the children of the largely urban rich and middle classes while the school facilities in villages were/are no better than the kind sadna points to in Sindh. Even now you have a ridiculously absurd situation where parents spend thousands of rupees in fees, tuitions, building funds and the like for their children in private schools for primary and secondary education but pay only Rs. 20 per month when the same child goes to a college where the cost of providing education is several times that of the private secondary schools.

#279 by Mantolives

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Think before you write... by telling these charities to be smart and not getting caught you are condoning terrorism.. I am surprised because you often claimed on this website to be a Moderate Muslim opposed to Mullahs.
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Manto: the only thing I am condoning is a struggle for freedom of Palestinians and Kashmiris. In this respect, I am only as guilty as Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Muammar Gaddafi and Yasser Arafat. And they were not Mullahs at all.

For me, the definition of ``terrorism`` starts and ends at 9/11. If there are Pakistani charities involved in 9/11 attack, I condemn them. But if they are funding the liberation struggles in Palestine or Kashmir, I salute them. And, with due respect, that doesn`t make me a Mullah either.

As Hegel rightly remarked, Die Weltgeschichte ist das Weltgericht: world history is the final arbiter of right. If Kashmiris and Palestinians eventually win freedom, history will forgive and forget the means they employed against their superior adversaries.

Sadat Hassan Manto

Can anybody educate me about Sadat Hassan Manto
also where on internet cani find his works

Manto #278

{{more of the same old hate mongering and India Pakistan matches... the civility that we have created is now going to be lost once again.}}

{{…bigotry ….reasonable Pakistanis and Indians who want dialogue.}}

With respect, I do not think you have been quite fair. Sadna, as far as I recall, has always attempted to back up her assertions with facts and reasoned arguments. She has also squarely faced facts that showed people or institutions in India in a poor or questionable light. I’ve never seen her try to duck or evade or spin away unpleasant truths.

Facts are facts, and have to be faced sooner or later. The real way to contest an assertion that purports to be fact-based, is to show that the purported facts are wrong, or incomplete – or to provide a different interpretation of the facts - or to reveal a larger context that shows the facts in a different light.

And not to sermonize, but I’ve never quite understood why discourse based on fact and reasoned argument qualifies as ‘hate-mongering’ and ‘bigotry’. On Chowk, those labels have always sounded to me like a cop-out. Must ‘reasonable’ people eschew any mention of anything that might conceivably be embarassing to any party in a debate? Why must civility automatically break down if a hard truth - or for that matter a scurrilous falsehood - is introduced into the debate? Bonhomie and camaraderie are good when you can have them, but isn’t facing the truth more important, no matter whose ox is being gored?

To make this more concrete: my solid undergraduate education in India, at an avowedly elitist if spartan institution, cost all of Rs 200 per year (about $25, at the time) in fees. It was obviously massively subsidized by the GoI, to an extent that I only realized later. It is perfectly in order for anyone at all – Indian, Pakistan, American, rich, poor, male, female, whoever – to ask whether an investment on that scale was justified and whether the money might not have been better, or morely equitably, spent on mass primary or secondary education, or on other undergraduate institutions. A proper answer to that question has nothing at all to do with who raises it and depends only on the facts of the case.

Sadna # 281

Our school project has nothing to do with the Government or the armed forces - it is our very own baby - we old boys - it is our payback to the society - our public school provided liberal secular education - Our Principals and teachers were British for many years - our last Principal was Mr. Hugh Catchpole, the ex-Dera Doon Prinicipal.

The new school has the best Campus in Pakistan - will provide quality education with 30% seats reserved on merit on Scholarshpis for the poor students who can not afford it. Its purpose is to produce well rounded human beings for future leadership. The first Principal and some teachers will be from UK - short listing has already been done.

Dr. Amanullah, an old Sargodhian who set up the GIK, is the education consultant.

The funds have been generated by the Sargodhians themselves and by their contributions on a world wide basis. Obviously, if we have old Sargodhians in positions of power, we will use their influence.

Just to quote you some of our old boys - Chief Of Pakistan & Bangla Desh Air Force are from our School. There are four School Lt. Gen. in the Army. Pricipal Secretary to Bangla Desh PM is from our school. Interior secretary Pakistan is from School and numerous others heads of organizations, business men, technologists, ambassadors etc.

We are just doing our bit. And the old boys who are now living properous retired lives have some thing to look forward to; and have a noble cause to work for.

Farzana, I have never heard anyone not care about about Kargil. There was the biggest nationalist wave I have ever seen.I agree much of it was engineered in the first place by the government and the media,but you can`t deny it was there. A lot of people were uncomfortable about it,predominantly a leftist elite. They-you-are as entitled to their opinions as anyone else, but please don`t represent it as a majority Indian opinion. You are an Indian, not the common Indian. I won`t go into not wanting to give away Kashmir,it`s all too much....if people didn`t feel so strongly about it, one of our many PMs over the last 20 years would have given it away.
Harimau wonders on another how you would have coped if you had the `misfortune` to be born in Up,but as one who spent most of her life in the Hindi heartland,I think you would have more of an idea of what people really want .Yes,people do want water and electricity and roads. But they do want Kashmir too.
#278
Mantolives, you make it sound as if sadna is a threat to all the eminently sensible people on chowk. Listen to yourself.So its ok for people like urstruly and romair to go on,you don`t find them offensive,or Indians like Farzana who say what even ``progressive`` Pakistanis like yourself want to hear.I don`t know if she hides behind being a woman.Not much scope to do that,don`t you think?One interactor on Zarine Habeeb`s board (admittedly not one who ever makes much sense) dismissed Zarine as a 40plus single Tamil(sic) woman.What does that have to do with anything?But you don`t seem to have a problem with that.

anil:
I would like to encourage you and get involved in your museum/memorial project. I may not have your resources but I could cotribute in other ways, plus a modest financial contribution.