India and Pakistan: The Stark Reality

Godot

There is no better way to disarm an Indian than to say a few good words about India. Russians knew that. They had us eating out their hands for fifty years. Now you will make us helpless against Pakistan too :)

From what I know of India and Indians, India has no intention at all of running over Pakistan. The new generation of Indians thinks of Pakistan just as a neighbor, not a part that broke away and must be reabsorbed. There is no China-Taiwan complex in India. In South India, in particular, Pakistan is seen as ANOTHER country, whose sovereignty Indians would honor just as we want people to honor our sovereignty.

India`s biggest achievement has been to create a strong and strange sense of unity throughout the country. I hope Pakistan adopts a path that enables it to do the same for itself.

This article by Godot is one that some might just call a ``SIXER``

Anyone looking or listening?

Or has the ball gone over the boundary too quickly?


Ras

Here is a simple theory - for India to do well, the complete sub-Continent must also do well. All the countries in the region, including those known as ``buffer states`` in the old days, need to have elements of sanity and rationalism.

Knowing and understanding this better than any of us, the big bad wolves from the West and the East and all other directions continuously keep on winding up Pakistan to provide an element of insanity to the geographical area known as ``sub-Continent``.

Within India, the big change taking place especially in the last 10 odd years is that the country is now being led forward by the South, with the West keeping pace, so the North will in due course hopefully see the benefit of looking South for an example, the North East is moving faster and quieter, and as for the East, eventually inevitable.

By then, please sort out you stuff in Pakistan, please and thanks.

At best, this article is shallow and offers half-baked truths illicitly drawn from generic observations. It offers no deeper analyses; doesn`t add up anything to the readers` fund of knowledge of the two countries let alon compare the two.

Godot:
Thank you ji....!
There is also a well made music video called `Kachee kali``, but is that all? You have commended NRIs, but they happen to be among the most rabid, fanatical elements as also those with dubious records as could be found in any society. Praveen Togadia is one. The Hindujas. Nadeem Saifee. Dawood Ibrahim.

Therefore, when you say, ``Democracy has saved India and has earned it respect of the comity of nations that matter``, you are talking about the handful of nations that have no compunctions riding roughshod over societies they consider to be uncivilised. Let me tell you that India is not respected for its democracy but because it is a huge consumer market, it is too populous, it has too many ideological streams for it to be given a single recognisable ugly face, it comes in handy in the Western version of the war against terror, its brain drain has made the West kind of dependent on certain aspects, and Indians in India too have no problems mimicking American accents at call centres and even campuses and are willing to be guinea pigs for all manner of Western experiments, including ...tralalallala....its concept of democracy.

It is when democracy saves Indians in India can there be any talk of ``India and Pakistan`` in civilised, modern and real terms. (The Pakistanis have to tell us how they plan to play ball along these lines.) That is the stark reality, my friend.

PS: Get well soon ;)

Ras (#1):
[This article by Godot is one that some might just call a ``SIXER``
Anyone looking or listening?
Or has the ball gone over the boundary too quickly?]

Huh? When the umpire is himself batting, he can do what he wants with his fingers, na? No offence directed at Godot, but I assume you think this article will make some nasty Indians sit up and take notice of the Pakistani who says nice-nice things about them. Unlikely.
1. They will say he is being patronising.
2. They will say he is a voice in the wilderness.
3. They will ask, so what about Kashmir?

And on two points they will not be wrong. Just the other day when Urstruly expressed concern for the subcontinent, he was asked whether Detroit was in the subcontinent. This on a Board where the Indian writer showing concern about the subcontinent also lived overseas. The irony is compounded because those who express concern over the misguided concerns versus what they have decided are real concerns are invariably not living in the subcontinent. So, do you think a NRP singing hosannas about NRI-fed/inspired/vomited achievements is a case of ``the ball gone over the boundary too quickly``? I think it is more like a disputed LBW.

Farzana # 5

Frankly, being a Pakistani, I feel guilty beating the Pakistan horse all the time - especially on the two issues of defining the role of Religion & Military in Pakistan.

Author`s bottom line is ``civilian rule & democracy`` - and the consequent political & economic stability. It is difficult not to get agree with him.

As for the Indian democracy, it is none of my business - but the fact is that India has managed a stable political process over the last 56 years - which has been a unifying force.

Democracy has saved India and has earned it respect of the comity of nations that matter.

Which democracy are you referring to, sir? The democracy that was responsible for inciting hatred against Gujarat`s Muslim population which resulted in the slaughter of at least 2500 Muslims (including three British Muslims) in March 2002, the raping of hundreds of Muslim women and over 200 000 Muslims made homeless in the mass riots that accompanied the pogrom. The democracy that is being ruled by Hindu extremist parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). If that is the definition of democracy you are relying on then Pakistan is better off not practicing it. Perhaps Indian-Israeli alliance (taking in consideration the fact that Israel itself is being ruled by a war criminal) in your eyes is an alliance of two countries that are the epitome of democracy.


The union of civilized and rational thinking countries, which incidentally are also the most powerful--economically, militarily and scientifically--, regard non-democracy as a cardinal sin and the army rule as the worst form of it.
Yes we have a military ruler in Pakistan, but even Americans are doubting the credibility of their last ``democratic`` election. Has America itself not been a supported of Dictatorships in the past, overthrowing the president of Chile in 1973 along with murder of 30,000 citizens, just to install a military dictator there.


Its economy is flourishing and it is building a formidable defense system. It has friendship and alliances with all the important and powerful countries of the world, including the US, Russia, the European Union, Israel, China, Iran, Afghanistan, the Gulf States, and the Central Asia countries (remarkably, not a squeak was heard from the Palestinians and the Arabs when Sharon visited India). India is the prime candidate for the permanent seat at the UN, and if the UN is restructured, India is on the table to be a corner stone of the new UN.

Yes you are right that India has experienced an economic boost but don`t refer to it as ``flourishing`` economy. It is not a flourishing economy when you have more than 259 million people living under the poverty lines. Thanks to cheap labor, we have more Indian courtesy callers bugging us night and day in America than we do Americans. India may be the prime candidate for a permanent seat at UN, but what authority does UN have? After the recent wars, does UN even serve any purpose.

Oh and about the Indian Astronaut going to Space in a spacecraft that never made it back to earth, well one of NSync boys will also be going to space soon. So does that say anything about the person`s intelligence. Come-on, give me a break. bad examples used in the article.

Oh and Indian entertainment industry is the only one right behind Hollywood. Perhaps if they focused more on alleviating poverty than making movies that cost $10 million dollars, they might actually be able to bring about a change. And the caste system in India is as undemocratic as any social profiling can be, and that`s the Hindus we are talking about not even the Muslims. What happened in Gujarat was targeted at Muslims, but the caste system targets its own.
This article was nothing more than a biased opinion providing no hard core facts. Yes Pakistan has its faults but don`t try to elevate India to a status that it has yet to reach.............

Ditto Versey

Ref Farzana #5

Chill. Take a pill if necessary.

As to dubious NRIs, the Hindujas are shady businessmen whereas Dawood Ibrahim is a lord of the criminal underworld. Even in the US, there is a slight odium associated with the latter. In case you don`t like me to mention The Great Satan, let me tell you that even in the Islamic Paradise on Earth known as Saudi Arabia with its holy shrines of Mecca and Medina (and several blonde blue-eyed houris for The True Believers Who Have Been Blessed by Allah with Wealth), a shady businessman like Adnan Khashoggi doesn`t get hauled off to the local prison whereas a petty thief gets his hand chopped off.

Would you care to elaborate on the Eastern Concept of Democracy as opposed to the Westen Concept which you dismiss somewhat comtemptuously? Would it involve the Divine Right to Rule, perhaps? Maybe even the return of The Last Moghul to the throne of Delhi? Perhaps the Western Concept of Democracy was getting closer to the Eastern Concept when Bill Clinton was getting serviced in the White House. Shades of Arabian Nights, dont you think?

Living in Bombay, the most cosmopolitan city in India, you have become an embittered person. Just imagine what you would be like if you had the misfortune to be born in UP.

Anyway, Farzana, I have high hopes for you. It is people like you in Palestine who wade into crowds wearing bombs on their bodies. Who knows???!!!!!

I agree with mohammadamjed. The article is incomplete and biased.

Godot

Good one.

Majority of Chowkies, I guess, would love it.

You need to also send it to the Pakistani Urdue media - Nawa-e-Waqt, Jung, Khabrein - where it really matters.

Before visiting this site I used to think, Pakistan suffers more from India-phobia but the writers and interactors at chowk seem to prove me otherwise.

``country is now being led forward by the South``

With all due respect to our northern brothers, you said it. Now if we could all get our rooms in order, the entire house can begin to shine.

re: Godot

Needless to say, you are looking at the world from Indian eyes. Hence your world view may not synch with how the Americans, Europeans, Russians, Chinese, Arabs and especially Pakistanis see the situation. You are making sweeping generalizations and whimsical claims like:

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The world, including the OIC, has no time for Pakistan’s grievances, but only to carry out its dirty work. Pakistan is cornered and the Indian reality is staring in Pakistan’s face.
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What ``dirty work``? And for whom? The world? Which OIC country is forcing Pakistan to take actions against Pakistan`s national interests? And who has cornered Pakistan? India? America? IMF? And on what issue? Economic? Political? Kashmir? Democracy?? How do you define ``dirty work`` and ``getting cornered``?

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``There are no institutions in which Pakistan can come even close to India, let alone compete with it``
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And what is the criterion for judging whether an institution ``can come even close to India, let alone compete with it``? Is this your personal criterion or is it widely accepted by other democracies in the world, especially the maturer Western democracies?

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With that reality, what should Pakistan do vis-à-vis India, obviously now a very powerful foe?
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Shouldn`t we first establish the reality before rushing into a such philosophical questions??

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In the current state in which Pakistan find itself against India, India cannot be thwarted by Pakistan; unfortunately for Pakistan, the other way round is not so difficult.
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And how exactly does India plan to use its Phalcons to thwart Pakistan`s nuclear deterrent and geographical contiguity?? In 1971, India had a conventional superiority and geographical advantage. Today, Pakistan`s nuclear deterrent is still in tact. And geographically, Pakistan is much better integrated and politically cohesive. Elected governments are functioning in all 4 provinces and military has already withdrawn to the barracks. Pakistan`s economy has already posted 2 years of growth in exports, remittances, revenue, development spending and reduction in debt burden. In the light of economic and military realities, your assessment is entirely lopsided. But I would still like to know how you reached this conclusion...

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A tattered country inflicted with sectarian violence, terrorism, and fractured political and judicial systems, Pakistan offers little hope to its people and is an easy target for destabilization by its enemies. With Iran and Afghanistan friendlier to India more than to Pakistan, it is now completely surrounded by India, which may run over it within a few years.
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This oft-repeated boast has lost its charm over the decades.

This kinda reminds me of Fidel Castro`s revolution in Cuba. In 1959, when Castro overthrew Batista, President Eisenhower promised Americans that Casto will fall within 2 years. Well that didn`t happen and Eisenhower had to bequeath this promise to JFK. Well JFK got unlucky in Dallas three years later. It was now up to Lyndon Johnson to fulfill the promise. Turns out, even he couldn`t walk over Castro. While Johson was succeeded in office by Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, George H. Bush, Clinton and now George W. Bush... the old Castro is still mocking them like a rock.

India`s ``impending conquest`` of Pakistan remains even more elusive. Nehru waited 17 years for ``the mistake called Pakistan`` to collapse. Didn`t happen. His daughter even engineered a war to break up Pakistan.. yet she couldn`t destroy Pakistan. In the end, Pakistan emerged stronger and became a nuclear power. Three generations of Nehrus dreamed of Pakistan`s collapse and perished heart broken.

How many more decades more do you need to realize that the partition of India is final and irreversible? The differences in ideology, civilizations and national aspirations are so stark that the only way India can conquer Pakistan is by killing over 150m Pakistanis. India couldn`t accomplish this in 1947 when Pakistan didn`t even have stationary to run its offices. How can ``run over`` a nuclear armed Pakistan with 500,000 soldiers and extremely hostile population??

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A tattered country inflicted with sectarian violence, terrorism, and fractured political and judicial systems, Pakistan offers little hope to its people and is an easy target for detabilization by its enemies.
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FYI, there has not been a major terrorist attack by Al-Qaeda for over 6 months in Pakistan. The sectarian outfits are already in disarray after the arrest of their top leadership. As for the ``fractured polity``, truth is that elected governments are in power in all 4 provinces. There is no political crisis in the country worth the salt. The core issue at present is LFO and Musharraf`s uniform. He has accepted these demands in principle. Now he is just haggling for a longer time frame. The local government system is also delivering results. I don`t see how India could accomplish any unstability in Pakistan even with all the resources at its disposal.

Why is an educated person like yourself indulging in such Macbeth-ian fantasies?

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If the Army loves Pakistan as it claims, it should get out of politics. If the Army wants to play any role at all in civilian life for the betterment of Pakistan, it should be to ensure that no matter how incompetent or corrupt a leader is, if the majority of the voters of Pakistan choose him or her, that leader is elected fairly and squarely, and that elections take place on a regular basis. Other than that, the Army should not have any role to play in Pakistan’s politics.
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I share your views about democracy and military`s role in politics. But I will add a caveat: Army should not cede control of Finance, Commerce and Science/Technology ministries to the elected politicians. These ministries should only be run by technocrats like Shaukat Aziz (former-Citibank Chief in NY), Humayun Akhtar (former MD Pepsi-Co Pakistan), Shahid Javed Burki (World Bank topgun), etc.

Civilians can run the rest of the show. But whenever they take control of these 3 ministries, they indulge in politics of vendetta. (e.g. Benazir and Nawaz shelved each other`s policies/projects just for egotistical reasons).

It is necessary to depoliticize these 3 ministries even if that means modifying the rules of the game a bit. Since the Americans have legitimized the Turkish model (where the Army has a much bigger role), I see no reason why the Americans, UN, Commonwealth and ASEAN will have any problems with the Pakistani model. After all, democracy has to be tailored to each country`s environment. And not vice versa.

Godot,

What I believe has happenned before not only on this forum but on several other forums is what seems to have repeated itself here. You can obviously keep pointing at the problem but unless you present a solution, even a flawed attempt at one, I am not sure if you are helping the situation all that much.

Having said that, I would praise your effort in recognising the reality which most of us Pakistanis are too happy to turn away from, which is, that India has definitely raced ahead of not just us but several other countries in the region. I always thought that India and China were the real rivals and we were just ``a problem`` and that only for people who are nostalgic for pre-partition days in India; the numbers in that group are only going down, are the ones that are obsessed with bringing us back into the bossom of Mother India. That is a source of embarrasment for me (since my country is rendered only to be a problem and nothing more) and gives me a sense of hope too. Hope, that someday soon, perhaps out of the realization that India can be so much more if it gets rid of the problem of ongoing cold and hot wars with Pakistan, it and her leaders will see that it can gain much more by making peace with Pakistan. India can also continue on this path as is and will still come out a winner however it may take more time for it to reach where it can arrive earlier.
As far as Pakistan Army is concerned, the solution that you seem to point to is not very well presented here. How do you expect, for instance, to implement this in Pakistan? What is the role of the Judiciary, different parts of society, etc. When a solution is presented all of that must be accounted for and I hope you don`t take this the wrong way, but it has not been tackled here at all.

Once again, I don`t mean to criticize the spirit this work is written in however, I do want to point out that not much will come out of articles of this nature. This was just in relation to the detail in the article.

And Now for something completely different :-)

I do want to point out something that I think is important though. We must talk about this as much as we can. I remember there was a reading of the book ``Color Khakhi`` arranged by a group here in the Bay Area and somebody asked, what is the point of beating a dead horse. I immediately replied that even though not much can be expected after the reading except kicking the topic of extraneous measures of the military apparatus of Pakistan for what they call ``Steps taken to procure the True Interest of Pakistan`` around, however, the reading should still be attended because it may just help us pull a Pakistani out of his delusions of grandiosity against the Indian army or nation OR an Indian out of his moral self selfrighteousness and inability to see that there may be a Pakistani side of the story too. I have actually seen people come to such realizations on both sides so I firmly believe that Pakistanis and Indians are not very well informed about one another and this needs to change.

Now in light of the fact that I have responded here with more of an Indian angle to a very Pakistani problem, hence providing proof that I may be looking at this Pakistani problem through the prism of India, the fact is that a neighbour of the size of India will figure into any solution that is realizeable for Pakistan. Anyway, allow me to say just a tad more: Pakistan, in my opinion, still has the potential to reach the heights that we all wish for it to reach. What we need is a common goal and a common objective as a nation. That common objective should be set out by our social leaders and not political leaders. In other words, our business leaders, our artists, our academia, our journalists, need to work together on ONE platform and one FORUM. We can start by atleast gathering together our people from circles that can make some impact. This FORUM may turn out to be incosequential just like the UNO on the world stage but if we can even have impact on local areas within Pakistan, it would be a start. This platform should have a manifesto and an objective as well as deadlines. If the objectives are not achieved by those deadlines the FORUM would be considered defunct. A provision can be entered here that will allow the FORUM to go on even if the objectives are not achieved, only if, say 2/3rd of the membership votes for it to go on. This and other such provisions would ensure that the forum does not get hijacked for political purposes.

I can remember several instances in the last ten years when individuals took principled stands against an authority including governments of the time and did not get the concentrated suport that I wish groups and people in Pakistan would provide. I wish for this FORUM or PLATFORM to do that. Main points could be:

1. Respect for Life and Liberty would be supreme in all cases and capacities of society.
2. Justice will be sought with the ferocity and singlemindedness that will render the justice served and ensure the inability of injustice of the kind from taking root anywhere.

If the FORUM is started with these two, I am sure there will be plenty that can be done before the need may be felt to add to it.

faizahussain # 7 - your concern for my fellow Indians, Muslims and otherwise, is indeed touching. I agree that Gujarat was a blot, an abberation, and I wish you would believe that we are trying to fix matters here in India. However, being human, we have made mistakes, and will make more.

Ad interim, may I know your views on mistreatment of other Muslims by greatly emancipated rulers in Islamic countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and maybe even Afghanistan? What? Sorry, can`t hear you?

Pakistan has been declared the third most corrupt nation in the world by transparency international this year, which is a natural outcome of its involvement with US. During the first two years of this regime when Pakistan was at the lowest level of its contact with US and the west the corruption level went down; in mid-90s Paksitan was among the top 5 most corrupt nations, and in those two years its status slid down to somwhere in 50s. Now we are back at third as our mai baap are trying to buy loyalties and the dirty money is channeled down.