Sargodha & Migs

Mr.Khan,

your article brought back memories of the great time Mantolives and I had in Sargodha in the summer of 2000. On our way back to Lahore we had lunch at this restaurant called, Kirana Bahaar (if I`m not mistaken)...there was a wedding reception going on in the reception hall...but what knocked off my `hosh` was this female maitre d` who could only be described as a `hoor pari`...did not expect that in a traditional looking town like Sargodha.

re: dost-mittar

when I went to Mantolives` maternal haveli, the first thing I saw was the devnagiri script on the front porch...it had `Niranjan Niwas` written in Hindi...the house is still grand, which if I remember correctly was built in 1905 I think...when we were on the terrace, Manto`s mamoo showed me the the spire of the local locked up Mandir and said, ``we have safeguarded your temple``...I could not help but think of Ayodhya...in any case, he said that there was still a Hindu living in the area and is a very old lawyer...just thought I`d share that with you when I read about your wife`s grandfather being a hotshot lawyer and all.

regards

Kabuli

fuzair #43 you write ``The F-104 had 1 kill in 1971 and 2 were shot down. ``
to put a human face on these numbers: one of the F-104`s was shot down in kashmir while on a bombing run i believe. The pilot was married just a few months before and originally there was some hope that he had managed to bail out. It took a couple of years I understand before he was considered killed in action. I forget his name, but he was the younger brother of Anwar, also a PAF pilot, who I remember as being a tall (six foot three or four) friendly fellow, and who had also been killed an year or so before in a helicopter crash (it was one of those huge Russian troop carrying helicopters, an MI-6 I think it was called) near Gilgit. He was wing commander or squadron leader or something when he died, in his twenties.
The whole thing was considered a big family tragedy at the time. I wonder if NHK or you or anyone else of you military types remember Anwar or his brother who died.

NHK #44 I dont think those air force trainee boys needed any booze to gin up (no pun) courage to get those girls giggling. Any drunk can get fresh with women, and he generally wouldnt impress anyone anyway - what awed me was their guts at flirting with those girls (who seemed to have ``look dont touch`` written all over them) during the movie, knowing exactly what they were doing.

The F104 was designed to meet a threat that never materialized. The USAF was concerned that the USSR was developing a supersonic high altitude bomber which existing USAF fighters would not be able to intercept. Hence the F104--the Rocket With Wings. It was never designed to be an agile dogfighter like the F86 Sabre. It was simply meant to accelerate straight up, intercept the bomber, shoot it down and come back.

I believe the F-104 was known as the Widowmaker by the Luftwaffe because of its many crashes. But, on the other hand, the PAF had a relatively good safety experience with it--probably because it assigned experienced pilots to the F-104s. We also got some Jordanian F-104s during the 1971 War but I think they were returned later. According to Bharat Rakshak, the F-104 had 3 confirmed kills (and two more claimed) in 1965; the PAF lost one F-104 to an IAF Mystere and one more crashed while landing in a duststorm. The F-104 had 1 kill in 1971 and 2 were shot down.

The original F-6 (i.e, the MiG-19) was a piece of Russian junk. The Russians themselves scrapped the design as worthless very quickly and passed it on to their ``allies.`` I don`t know how much the Chinese ``improved`` it but, for example, it has/had twin engines because the Russians did not have a single jet engine powerful enough to power it. The original design was notoriously bad-handling and actuely dangerous for the pilot. I don`t think the PAF lost so many of them because they were old planes, I think that most of them were probably lost because the plane handles like a brick.

Tehmed32 # 23

(btw did you jet boys have the great romantic lives you are supposed to have. The)

I think it holds true for the good old days - with a greater professionalism - greater respect in society - high salary - glamorous job - busy mess Bars - Drinks - greater social life & so on. In the academy, the seniors taught motto `` Fukk, Fly & forget``.

Now everything is sedate - job is like a duty - salaries not too hot as compared to civil, bars serve Coke & Pepsi, deserted messes, TV etc.

Now people work more on the careers, promotions & plots.

....wonderful article, nazarsaab...my mom being from sargodha, i`ve had quite a few chances to visit it....like urstruly said, it has the most amazing kinoo kay baaghs...nothing but orange speckled trees for miles on end and the only sound around you being the staccato of the mill in the distance...

Ironman # 39

The Russian Mig-21 has been one of the very successful & reliable Russian aircraft. The F-7 (Chinese Mig-21) & A-5 (Strike version of F-6 (Chinese Mig-19) have also proved to be more reliable than the F-6.

F-104 was before its times when the primary function of a fighter was thought to be air combat. F-104 with its razor-thin wings could not turn tight. And the pilots have some odd fascination with Air combat.

But it had the glory of speed (Mach 2) attached to it. It could accelerate and exit faster than any other aircraft of those times. With long range air to air missiles, it was a very menacing weapon. But the Germans had far too many accidents of F-104. May be the European weather was one cause.

F-104 had one or two kills in war.

Nazar

Great article. Enjoyed reading it. Would be fun if somebody from The Indian Air Force would respond and compare notes.

Nazar,

What`s the highest mach you ever reached?

Did the PAF F104 actually get any victories at all? Everybody seems to think it was a prize lemon.

Interesting info about compressor stalls in chinese migs. A friend who worked at the engine test center in India said the russian ones were unusually rugged. Rapid throttle changes were no problem at all.

Thx,

NHK

What I meant was A-5 and I mixed it up with F-6. I think A-5 is lot safer than Indian migs

Urstruly # 31

I must say F-6 had a higher accident rate as compared to the American or French aircraft with PAF - mostly due to old technology and mettalurgy. I have seen many young die.

The crash rate figures can be misleading - it depends on how many total aircraft, total flying generation, types of missions etc.

There is no A-6 aircraft. Pakistan only rebuilds (totally opening up and refurbishing) A-7, Mirage, F-7 (Mig 21).

Pakistan builds Karakoram-8 (advanced jet trainer) jointly with China. The F-17 (Light fighter) will come out in next few years - again jointly with China.

Pakistan completely builds Mushaak (small propeller trainer) minus the engine (Swedish Techmology). Some have been exported as well.

I am out of touch on the accident rate stuff and can not give you authentic information.

Dost-mitter # 33

The word ``Kohli`` sounds familiar. I some times repent why I did not talk to my father more about the pre-patition days. But, once again, one`s priorities are different at different stage of life. I will find out.

Manto # 35

No problem. Raat Gayee, Baat Gayee. We have no dispute on Zar, Zun or Zameen. That is why I never responded to you when you were so angry.

Aghaaz # 32

I have really nothing grand to tell you about the war. But some time, Inshallah, something.

temporal #34 Good point. The petition is well-written, and I see we have about 354 other signatures. I signed it and hope other chowkies will sign it as well.

Nazar Saheb ....

My mamoos are Syed Imdad Hussain Hamdani, Syed Sabahat Hussain Hamdani and Mohammed Ali Hamdani... first two have since moved their practice to Lahore high court..
I also want to say that whatever bad blood was created between us should be forgotten, since we share so much of the same background ...

PAF College sargodha must be doing something right to produce so many open minded Pakistanis.


Aghaz...

Since your grandfather was one of the care takers of the ahle-hadith mosque I don`t know if you would want to hear this... my mother`s family is shiite... it is the simple Block 23 ... I don`t know if that is called A ... but it is probably not B.


-YLH

nazar:

with apology for this digression:

bina shah has posted this on unplugged and this needs wider exposure...it is an online petition against the stifling stranglehold of the Hudood Ordinances...please go to this site and if in agreement make your thoughts known
by signing up...a drop at a time makes the bucket full...

...t

nazar saheb:
I knew what you meant by ``support equipment``:-). I went on a study tour to a paharhi village in the `60s in UP and the situation was the same there. In that village, almost every other family had a man who was working as a domestic servant or labourer in Delhi or Bombay. And I found that the `support equipment` was one of the most sought after gift the husbands brought for their wives. It is ironic, therefore, that when the feminist movement started in the West, they burned their bras en mass in a public protest as a symbol of women`s empowerment.

BTW is there any old man in Sargodha who remembers a lawyer named Kohli? My wife claims that her grandfather was the most famous vakil of Sargodha before the partition.

tahmed32:parent`s cousins still live there but not many just 2-3, my first cousins maternal still in sargodha, paternal scattered in the world (from jehlum/lhr/khi/multan/states)-
Nazar Khan ji, is it possible that you can write your experiences during wars. Will be quite interesting.