Sargodha & Migs

What is that in Indian Air Force which their GDPs call `Flying Coffins`. Are they MIG-21s. I think their crash rate is one every 2.5 weeks for the past several years. As compared to that great Russian achievement, Pakistan`s home-made A-6s have much better safety record, doesn`t it. I don`t know how they compare in combat situations.

aghaaz #28 How about your cousins? Do they still live in 23 block? just curious.

Mantolives: where in 23 block, there are two, A & B, why i am asking coz we still got our home at 23Block Chowk. One of the qureshis, my grandfather dada abbu, used to be the caretaker of Ahle-Hadith Masjid nearby.
Why i said one of the qureshis, coz in 23 block they were spread all over, at all the four lanes of the 23 Block, we had 6 qureshi families, brothers of my grandfather (Mr. Tufail). My paternal & maternal grandparents all lived there, paternal has moved out to lahore now, and maternal are still there 32 Block. Just got curious.

ironman # 26

Here is some rusty knowledge:

I remeber F-6 ducked & pitched up while going through the transonic range. At slow speeds, in a high G turn, F-6 was a tricky aircraft to fly since it always wanted to go into an adverse yaw flick onto the opposite side. Unlike most jet fighters, it required inside rudder to cater for the the adverse yaw during a turn.

Otherwise, in a steep wings level climb, you could go to zero speed. Then it would fall like a hammer in verticle dive and swing like a pendulum until the speed increased; and one had the flight controls again effective. During this period, the pilot better keep all controls nuetral to avoid going into a spin.

Its engines had problms. Compressor stalls if throttles were rapidly pumped up. Also, the igniter-rods in the exhaust which lit up the after-burner fuel at times got twisted and burnt through the exhaust pipe. Thereafter, the hydraulic fuel lines close to the exhaust caught fire - and one lost the hydraulic system as well as had a fire situation. (I had twice such incidents)

It had pneumatic brakes with the brake handle located on the stick grip. The brakes, when heated, got carbonized (powder type carbon) and lost some the braking efficiency. After every flight, the carbon from the brakes was blown off by compressed air.

It had another funny thing. Different colour cartridges could be fired in the air to indicate the type of emergency - blue flare for radio failure and so on.

We ferried these aircraft from China with throat mikes. Subsequently, we put the normal UHF radio set with normal mike. The Chinese ejection seats, I think, were effective when above 1500 feet AGL. We installed Martin-Baker ejection seats with zero-zero capability - meaning one could safely eject out of the aircraft even at ground level and at zero speed.

F-104 had a smooth transfer to supersonic. (I flew F-104 very briefly)

Chuck Yaeger,

Wharere are you when we need you so much. A pakistani article about airforce withy out quoting chuck, see the neo-jihadis have abandoned you.

Nazar,

Thanks for the info.

The intakes look interesting. Single intake for 2 engines. I think only the lightning has a similar one.
Any interesting observations about intake instabilities creating engine problems during turns, take offs, landings?

Low aspect ratios don`t handle well at low speed. What do you feel about low speed handling capabilities of the mig19? I suppose any airplane was better than the F104 (widow-maker) at low speed.

Also interesting would be a description of your experience breaking the sound barrier in the mig19.


Thx,

Irfanahemed # 15

Please read my post # 4.

Friend # 18

Please read my post # 4.

hh # 7

Count me in the anti-war activists. 1971 was an unusal war where majority wanted to breakaway from the minority. It required a political solution and not a military one.
Some more about it later.

Manto # 10

Who are your lawyer Mammoos?
23 Block - quite familiar with it. Our city family house was 65-C Sattelite town which we sold and distributed the booty among ourselves. But we are actually spread out in the villages around - with some in cities or abroad. My two sisters still live there.

Urstruly # 9

Lots & lots of oranges. Yes. Kinoo (citrus with soft skin & sweet/sour taste) was a creation of Sargodha. Best quality in the world.

temporal # 11

Khalid Saeed Haroon, present DG Passports & Immigration, is from our course (42nd GD (p)

Ironman # 12

The Chinese aircraft require more maintenance as compared to the Americans, British, French aircraft . F-6 (Mig 19 Nato name ``Farmer``) engines required a maintenance check in hanger after every 100 hours. 100 hours was not its total life.
Chinese metullergy was poor and engines did give problems. F-6 was muti-engine.
The engine was thirsty on fuel, like all Chinese/Russian products (even tanks) but it had good thrust vis-e-vis its weight.

You certainly bring the experience of flying a jet plane to life in this article. Enjoyed reading this article. btw did you jet boys have the great romantic lives you are supposed to have. The closest I came was an evening at the nowshehra club with a distant cousin (Farooq, dont ask me his last name or where he is since I havent seen him in two decades) and a couple of his pals from risalpur training base, and was greatly impressed by their incredible ability to keep the row of army daughters sitting in front of us giggling throughout the movie being shown at the club.

Dost-mitter # 20

(since ``so far back in the times that their staple dress was confined to thin black cotton; quite transparent and without the usual female support equipment``. Have they started using burqa? During my parents days, burqa)

Female support equipment meant Bra not Burqa.

No. The village women do not wear Burqa. They are free - free to work in the fields -
Old style Burqa, in general, is finished in Pakistan.

In NWFP, yes, Burqa is used. Or Chaddar by elderly women. Shuttle-cock is only in frontier or adjoining Afghanistan.

Otherwise, Dopatta or Chaddor goes.
The Niqaab or Hijaab is becoming a fashion statement in upper classess. One finds girls in Banks, MBA`s, wearing Niqaab or Hijaab. But very few.

#15 irfanhamid

{{two frontline aircraft flown by equally competent pilots, who knows, maybe the dogfight and the furball isn`t a thing of the past.}}

There have been reported encounters between contemporary Russian aircraft in some obscure wars in Africa. Mig-29s and Su-27s (flown by Russian and Ukrainian mercenaries for Ethiopia and Eritrea) are know to have clashed over the Horn of Africa. Those encounters would have happened in conditions similar to those of the pre-AWACS era. The details of what happened are hard to come by.

#7 hh

{{7th september 1965 incident where 5 intruding indian planes were shot down in a matter of few minutes by MM alam}}

The story of MM Alam as Panch Mar Khan in ‘30 seconds over Sargodha’ received a big boost from ‘Battle for Pakistan’ by John Fricker, the PAF’s official hagiographer. It seems to have little basis in fact. Alam may have shot down 2 IAF Hunters on that day – not more.

nazar saheb:
You have combined your two loves - airplanes and Sargodah - in one article. Nice reading. Have the maidens of the surrounding villages changed since ``so far back in the times that their staple dress was confined to thin black cotton; quite transparent and without the usual female support equipment``. Have they started using burqa? During my parents days, burqa and `jhund` (among hindus and sikhs) was only for the middle classes (or the `sharif log` as they were called), the poorer women did not use them since presumably they were not supposed to have any `sharafat` to protect.
Did you get into any exciting action during the war that you might like to share?

sac:

....what is this about unpretentious and at ease fellows eschew sex?

..astaghfirullah!...you have just thrown a full toss;)

..t

Nazar Saheb,
Really an excellent writeup. Is that you in that photograph?

Adding to question posed by Veeresh, what was PAF`s impression of IAF`s GNAT and Migs?

nazar sahab:

First off, excellent article. Being an airforce brat myself, it holds special significance. As I read it I went down memory lane, saw myself sitting in the classrooms of one of the dozen PAF schools I`ve attented while a roar outside reminds us that we are next-door to the flightline (amazing how well a jet`s sound carries).

Ofcourse you are the fighter pilot here so don`t want to sound too presumptuous, but wanted to discuss with you your views on the evolution of the modern fighter aircraft. I guess it does seem that fighter flying has turned more into ``button-pusher`` warfare. But there was also another time in history when some people thought that close-in dogfights were a thing of the past and stopped installing Vulcans on F4s thinking the Sparrows (the BVR of that era) would be able to handle it. Then Vietnam happened, and the US learned some valuable lessons, the hard way. They ended up producing a modified version of the F4 (the J variant) with a built-in gun and creating the school at Miramar. What surprises me (pleasantly) is the fact that even in the 50s the PAF had enough foresight to order its 104s equipped with the Gatling (I seem to recall that the US versions weren`t).

I guess ever since this computerized avionics mania took over, there hasn`t been a real fair fight in the air which would be conducive to analysis. It`s usually the US taking out either the Libyans, Serbians or the Iraqis, which really does not show what it would be like with two frontline aircraft flown by equally competent pilots, who knows, maybe the dogfight and the furball isn`t a thing of the past.

Would like your views on this.

Regards,
Irfan Hamid.

Nazar sahib,

Your writings have that unpretentious feel of a man perfectly at ease with himself and the world around him......as long as you keep sex out of it :)

later
-sac