Sargodha & Migs

Khan Sahb, I have recently discovered this place (Chowk), even though I signed on a couple of years ago, and back then I didn’t really have time to explore this place. Now I have a little free time to surf the web, and you have become one of my “required” readings on subway “to and from work”. As your other stories, I enjoyed this even more being a native of a village about 48 miles north of Sargodha on the banks of river Jelhum. As a little boy, visiting my ancestral village, I would see the PAF fighter planes in the sky and dream about becoming a fighter pilot some day. That never happened.

I don’t believe that you never found culinary delights of Sargodha. I can never have enough of GandllaN da Saag, CheerveeN Palak, VaRiaN, Pateesa, Maythi di Rooti, Khoshab day Dooday, and the best Kinoos that there are. I bet the food at the PAF mess sucked.

I think in those days if you gave the tail of a wild boar to the agriculture department, they paid Rs. 100. Wild boars did damage to the crops, the people did not eat them and it was a program to reduce their numbers.

it was Rs 50 and a pack of bullets.

Veeresh,

My maternal grandfather bought the house from someone I know around the time of his second marriage... I am assuming that it was evacuee property because of the devnagri script on the front porch.... I guess it is quite possible that it might not have been evacuee property, but the property of a rich Hindu who sold it ...

Most of the evacuee property is under dispute in the courts of Pakistan half a century onwards...

-YLH

ironman #73

Please follow it up with the hero`s conquest of Silicon Valley, deepening knowledge of India, winning a PhD on Indian affairs from the University of California, finally departure to Canada while President Bush and his whole family wept tears of joy.

:)

Harmau # 55

Only the Chinese technicians were at the base & they had a good time.

The thick jungle at the base and the surrounding sugercane fields had an ample supply of wild boars.

So the Chinese hunted them, bar-b-cued them and had a roaring time - free unlimited wild meat.

I think in those days if you gave the tail of a wild boar to the agriculture department, they paid Rs. 100. Wild boars did damage to the crops, the people did not eat them and it was a program to reduce their numbers.

ironman #73, obviously you are not telling the truth, even I can see that. We in India have been taught that all Pakistanis have to compulsory wear only green underpants.

#65 by tahmed32,
``...I actually ran into Romair`s great grandfather playing gooli danda in the streets...``


Heh heh! Good one Tauheed saab!

But jokes apart, few people know the truth of what happenned that fateful day when those F16s arrived and how Romair averted a major tragedy.

As those F16s were about to land, Romair noticed that six of them were coming in from west and the other six from east (A tragedy of immense proportion in the making). Quickly whiping off his T-shirt (which was green), and his underpants (which was red), he ran along the pavement (ever unmindful of personal danger). It took a good 2 minutes of frantic waving his underpants at the eastern F16s before they finally stopped to allow the western ones to go thru and land...after which Romair waved them thru with his T-shirt.

The crowd was stunned into silence and Zia-ul-Haq (who was watching) asked to meet the dashing young man personally. On learning that he was a sarghodian (born fliers), Zia and the crowd requested Romair to entertain them by flying an F16 which he did.

During one big turn (While doing an Immelman)...finding himself near the LOC...he leaned out and grabbed a couple of passing Indian shells before hurling them right back at the hapless Indians (next day there was the usual false report of soldiers killed by pakistani shelling).

After landing as Romair took off his helmet, Imram khan (who was present) was seen biting his lip. His american girlfriend was seen leaving him and moving towards Romair and Imran was heard mumbling something about running off with a jewish woman.

Towards evening Romair was seen in the company of Zeb-ul-Haq (youngest daughter of Zia) and it was wildly rumoured that she had proposed.

...to be continued...

Mantolives#70:
LOL!!

Most of Sargodha is currently to be found in Lajpat Nagar, Delhi, I am reliably informed. The rickshaws have given way to Mrooti & Frooti. The cinema has given way to multi-plexes. The kinoos have given way to year-round oranges. And the famous support less women of Sargodha of yore have now taken to thongs and bustiers. Just so that you should know while you are sweating it out with the prawns.

+++

Another question - was evacuee property eligible for sale as early as 1950? I think there were some bars on sales in India for quite some time, which ofcourse did not prevent large-scale benami movements.

+++

Dost Mittar,

The haveli kabuli is talking about was evacuee property allotted to some migrant from India who sold it to my grandfather in the late 1950s...

Wouldn`t it be funny if that was your wife`s house ?

-YLH

romair,

I am also listed in the email directory :)

Nazar sahib, quite touching article. I like your description of the MiG 19s (and their Chinaman version). For some odd reason, I`ve had a strange fondness for the Mig-19s, something that most of my aviation enthausiast friends laugh about. It is good to know that a professional like you didn`t dismiss that aircraft out of hand. I used to collect match-box models (and later the bigger, assembly type ones) of combat aircraft from a fairly early age. At age five or so I`d begged my family to take me to somebody`s wedding because I`d heard the BAF chief would be there. The AVM must have thought it annoying when I asked him something to the effect whether the Sabre or the Mig-19 was a better plane (he preferred the former). Years later, on a return visit to Dhaka, I ran into the former air chief (and then minister) at another party and my uncle reminded him of my silly question: suffice to say the embarassment was total.

#60 by Mantolives

Incidentally, I am also from Sargodha. It seems Sargodhians have finally arrived! Soon we will take over Pakistan and establish the Fifth Reich. Hail the Bumm chowk!

#59 by Mantolives,

``Romair... imagine three sargodhians from three different generations... NHK, you and myself.``

Correction YLH. Romair alone is three different generations.

Himself, old Ahmadzai and the young HisExcellency (recently passed out from LUMS!)

mantolives: actually i have never been to sargodha except once, and that was so long ago that I actually ran into Romair`s great grandfather playing gooli danda in the streets (he was just six years old at the time, bless his soul).

the fellows i referred to i knew because they were in the air force, not due to any sargodha association. nothing against people from sargodha, mind you.

Mantolives #59: “``romair,

You are also a sargodhian? I knew it``

Yes, I am a Sargodhian also. I finished around early 80s. It’s a nice place. Though I haven’t been back there for fifteen years or more. www.sargodhians.com is the official website, maintained by an ex-Sargodhian.

When I was in Silicon Valley, I had prepared a list of Sargodhians in IT in North America. Some of us used to meet, quite often. I think the most successful Sargodhian there, was a guy, named Farooq Raza (never met him) who founded a company called Mayan Networks.

“imagine three sargodhians from three different generations... NHK, you and myself.”

This one is debatable. NHK is definitely from a different generation. But you and I maybe from the same one.

“Anyway... Shahid Javed is the first Pakistani pilot to convert to an F 16 if I am not mistaken”

Yes. I was there, when the F-16s initially arrived, from the USA. The pilots were received as if they were astronauts.

Sargodha is known for many things. Probably PAF at the top. Followed in a descending order: Kinoos, Kinoos and Kinoos. Nothing much else there. When one enters from the city into the PAF area, it seems as if one is going from the third world to the first world.

The things I remember about Sargodha, the most, are the disproportionately high no. of movie theatres (nearly all of which showed Punjabi movies). And, of course, the rickshaws. Sargodha had (may still have) the best rickshaws I have ever seen. They were the cadillac of rickshaws, with excellent sound systems, plush thick foam seats, wide bodies, superb internal lighting, and very well decorated.

Mantolives:
Actually, my wife was also born in Sargodha though she has no memory of the place. Her Mom had gone to her Mayke for delivering her, as was a common practice in those days.

Sargodha is lame compared to Chakwal.

NHK:

``It seems that those simple guys have now developed a taste for sweat & sour prawns. ``

Interesting recipe. Was the addition of the sweat intentional or was it just a natural consequence of the weather?

;)

The Dusty Punjabi city of Sargodha, famous for Air battles seems to have some kind of a pivotal importance for the chowkwallahs, myself , NHK, Romair, Dost mittar`s wife`s grandfather, and even semipreciousme whose mother is from Sargodha like me... aghaz`s family is from sargodha, and even good ol` tahmed seems to have some interest in the city...


NHK,

I am glad we are letting bygones be bygones... amazingly it was not even about `disagreement`... your views are actually very close to my own... My umbrage was your oversimplification and your hobnobbing with well-known hatemongers from the other side... `friend` and `takshak` etc...

Anyway... I am glad our relationship has normalized for as Stuka so often points out ... we are natural allies :)

-YLH

romair,

You are also a sargodhian? I knew it... imagine three sargodhians from three different generations... NHK, you and myself. NHK I believe is from the age when it was a typical british Public (private) school... you went their in its nationalized post Matric phase... and myself when it was restarting as a very Pakistani version of the british public school...

Anyway... Shahid Javed is the first Pakistani pilot to convert to an F 16 if I am not mistaken... he is also a friend of my mamoo`s...

-YLH

Dost Mittar,

I will try and find out for you...

-YLH

PS:

Yes I believe it does say `Niranjan Niwas` though I can`t read devnagri script... I am not sure about the exact date it was built though it is inscribed on the haveli... Sadly I didn`t show you the `Surjeet building` in Lahore... where my father`s family has had two shops since 1936 ....

-YLH

Kaaaaaaaabulizzzzzzzzzzz back!!!! My soulmate from across the border!!!

:)

Man some memories of that trip... I hope we can repeat some of that this year...

-YLH

Ref nazarhayatkhan #53

[Kabuliwala # 47

Sargodha has now 1 or 2 Chinese Restaurants. It seems that those simple guys have now developed a taste for sweat & sour prawns.]

Perhaps due to the presence of Chinese airmen who are there to train PAF personnel in flying Chinese-built aircraft. Or because the locals like Chinese food? Is it anything like Desi Chinese food served in Bombay?

Nazar Khan: I know I know. I was kidding ofcourse. Llook forward to your next visit.

Stuka # 51

I went and stayed in Washinton only for you. But the communication gap got us.

Ironman # 50

I do not know the facts. But I think PAF may have given those wrecks tp confirm the ``Kills``. In the wars, there are invariably false claims from both sides.


Romair # 49

Air Force fighter flying requires energy, youth, aggression and a greater flying skill.
Airline flying requires accuracy, good procedures, laid out systems and cool mind.

It is a matter of choice who likes what. Having done both, I like Air Line because of its good free travels and good money.

Shahid Javaid is in Qatar - cosultant to Air force. Sami Toor has made AVM. They are all junior to me. But bright juniors.

Tehmed # 32

I remeber Samad killed in F-104 and the tall lanky guy that you were talking about. Also Flt. Lt. Amjad who shot an aircraft flew through the debri of the same aircraft and ejected. He was taken POW in India.

Kabuliwala # 47

Sargodha has now 1 or 2 Chinese Restaurants. It seems that those simple guys have now developed a taste for sweat & sour prawns.

Thanks guys for an unexpected good response. I was hesitant in submitting this article to Chowk - thought it to be a little too light.

Sorry for not being able to satisfy some questions on facts or figures. I generally leave the baggage of the past in the past ; except for the memorable moments.

NHK`s ultimate insult to Chowkies:

My Gurus on Chowk


Every day one comes across a new person who is worth listening to and reading - some so far in their speciality:

On South Asian History - Alephnull
On South Asian Ethos - SR
On State of Islam - Samininashah
On Hinduism - Haimou
On Indo-Pak pilitics - Stuka, Dost-mitter
On humanism - Ferozek
On setting the records straight - Tehmid32, Hamidm2
On feminism - farzana

The people with whom you would like to spend an evening -

The search continues .........


HAHAHA!! While he may compliment a few on knowledge, he would not like to spend an evening with any of us. HAHAHA!! Chowkies , see your true auqat :)

Hmmm, Nazar Khan..is that why you did not come to my place when you were in DC? :0(

Nazar,

Yeager writes in his book about how one of his (secret) missions was to cart all the indian wrecks in pakistan to the US for analysis. He said it took an entire (some big plane) to cart off all the wrecks and he was feeling smug about it.

How did your guys feel about this yank taking away all your hard work freely?

(I`m sure the russians were interested in F104s wrecks too. There`s no record whether the Indians obliged them).

NHK: Something I have always wanted to find out: How do the standards of flying in PIA and PAF compare to each other? Also, the standards of Engineering, flight safety, training and administrative efficiency? Are people generally happier in PIA or in PAF?

If you were in Sargodha in early 80s, I was about finishing up in PAF College, during those years. Who knows, maybe we ran across each other. You must be around the same seniority as the previous Cheif of Air Force. Is that correct? Do you know Sami Toor, Shahid Javed.

Nazar,

Sorry for taking up your space.

To those interested: Please go to the `publish and discuss articles on social and cultural issues` board for further details on Hudood Laws.

Thank you.
Umer M.

Mr.Khan,

your article brought back memories of the great time Mantolives and I had in Sargodha in the summer of 2000. On our way back to Lahore we had lunch at this restaurant called, Kirana Bahaar (if I`m not mistaken)...there was a wedding reception going on in the reception hall...but what knocked off my `hosh` was this female maitre d` who could only be described as a `hoor pari`...did not expect that in a traditional looking town like Sargodha.

re: dost-mittar

when I went to Mantolives` maternal haveli, the first thing I saw was the devnagiri script on the front porch...it had `Niranjan Niwas` written in Hindi...the house is still grand, which if I remember correctly was built in 1905 I think...when we were on the terrace, Manto`s mamoo showed me the the spire of the local locked up Mandir and said, ``we have safeguarded your temple``...I could not help but think of Ayodhya...in any case, he said that there was still a Hindu living in the area and is a very old lawyer...just thought I`d share that with you when I read about your wife`s grandfather being a hotshot lawyer and all.

regards

Kabuli

fuzair #43 you write ``The F-104 had 1 kill in 1971 and 2 were shot down. ``
to put a human face on these numbers: one of the F-104`s was shot down in kashmir while on a bombing run i believe. The pilot was married just a few months before and originally there was some hope that he had managed to bail out. It took a couple of years I understand before he was considered killed in action. I forget his name, but he was the younger brother of Anwar, also a PAF pilot, who I remember as being a tall (six foot three or four) friendly fellow, and who had also been killed an year or so before in a helicopter crash (it was one of those huge Russian troop carrying helicopters, an MI-6 I think it was called) near Gilgit. He was wing commander or squadron leader or something when he died, in his twenties.
The whole thing was considered a big family tragedy at the time. I wonder if NHK or you or anyone else of you military types remember Anwar or his brother who died.

NHK #44 I dont think those air force trainee boys needed any booze to gin up (no pun) courage to get those girls giggling. Any drunk can get fresh with women, and he generally wouldnt impress anyone anyway - what awed me was their guts at flirting with those girls (who seemed to have ``look dont touch`` written all over them) during the movie, knowing exactly what they were doing.

The F104 was designed to meet a threat that never materialized. The USAF was concerned that the USSR was developing a supersonic high altitude bomber which existing USAF fighters would not be able to intercept. Hence the F104--the Rocket With Wings. It was never designed to be an agile dogfighter like the F86 Sabre. It was simply meant to accelerate straight up, intercept the bomber, shoot it down and come back.

I believe the F-104 was known as the Widowmaker by the Luftwaffe because of its many crashes. But, on the other hand, the PAF had a relatively good safety experience with it--probably because it assigned experienced pilots to the F-104s. We also got some Jordanian F-104s during the 1971 War but I think they were returned later. According to Bharat Rakshak, the F-104 had 3 confirmed kills (and two more claimed) in 1965; the PAF lost one F-104 to an IAF Mystere and one more crashed while landing in a duststorm. The F-104 had 1 kill in 1971 and 2 were shot down.

The original F-6 (i.e, the MiG-19) was a piece of Russian junk. The Russians themselves scrapped the design as worthless very quickly and passed it on to their ``allies.`` I don`t know how much the Chinese ``improved`` it but, for example, it has/had twin engines because the Russians did not have a single jet engine powerful enough to power it. The original design was notoriously bad-handling and actuely dangerous for the pilot. I don`t think the PAF lost so many of them because they were old planes, I think that most of them were probably lost because the plane handles like a brick.

Tehmed32 # 23

(btw did you jet boys have the great romantic lives you are supposed to have. The)

I think it holds true for the good old days - with a greater professionalism - greater respect in society - high salary - glamorous job - busy mess Bars - Drinks - greater social life & so on. In the academy, the seniors taught motto `` Fukk, Fly & forget``.

Now everything is sedate - job is like a duty - salaries not too hot as compared to civil, bars serve Coke & Pepsi, deserted messes, TV etc.

Now people work more on the careers, promotions & plots.

....wonderful article, nazarsaab...my mom being from sargodha, i`ve had quite a few chances to visit it....like urstruly said, it has the most amazing kinoo kay baaghs...nothing but orange speckled trees for miles on end and the only sound around you being the staccato of the mill in the distance...

Ironman # 39

The Russian Mig-21 has been one of the very successful & reliable Russian aircraft. The F-7 (Chinese Mig-21) & A-5 (Strike version of F-6 (Chinese Mig-19) have also proved to be more reliable than the F-6.

F-104 was before its times when the primary function of a fighter was thought to be air combat. F-104 with its razor-thin wings could not turn tight. And the pilots have some odd fascination with Air combat.

But it had the glory of speed (Mach 2) attached to it. It could accelerate and exit faster than any other aircraft of those times. With long range air to air missiles, it was a very menacing weapon. But the Germans had far too many accidents of F-104. May be the European weather was one cause.

F-104 had one or two kills in war.

Nazar

Great article. Enjoyed reading it. Would be fun if somebody from The Indian Air Force would respond and compare notes.

Nazar,

What`s the highest mach you ever reached?

Did the PAF F104 actually get any victories at all? Everybody seems to think it was a prize lemon.

Interesting info about compressor stalls in chinese migs. A friend who worked at the engine test center in India said the russian ones were unusually rugged. Rapid throttle changes were no problem at all.

Thx,

NHK

What I meant was A-5 and I mixed it up with F-6. I think A-5 is lot safer than Indian migs

Urstruly # 31

I must say F-6 had a higher accident rate as compared to the American or French aircraft with PAF - mostly due to old technology and mettalurgy. I have seen many young die.

The crash rate figures can be misleading - it depends on how many total aircraft, total flying generation, types of missions etc.

There is no A-6 aircraft. Pakistan only rebuilds (totally opening up and refurbishing) A-7, Mirage, F-7 (Mig 21).

Pakistan builds Karakoram-8 (advanced jet trainer) jointly with China. The F-17 (Light fighter) will come out in next few years - again jointly with China.

Pakistan completely builds Mushaak (small propeller trainer) minus the engine (Swedish Techmology). Some have been exported as well.

I am out of touch on the accident rate stuff and can not give you authentic information.

Dost-mitter # 33

The word ``Kohli`` sounds familiar. I some times repent why I did not talk to my father more about the pre-patition days. But, once again, one`s priorities are different at different stage of life. I will find out.

Manto # 35

No problem. Raat Gayee, Baat Gayee. We have no dispute on Zar, Zun or Zameen. That is why I never responded to you when you were so angry.

Aghaaz # 32

I have really nothing grand to tell you about the war. But some time, Inshallah, something.

temporal #34 Good point. The petition is well-written, and I see we have about 354 other signatures. I signed it and hope other chowkies will sign it as well.

Nazar Saheb ....

My mamoos are Syed Imdad Hussain Hamdani, Syed Sabahat Hussain Hamdani and Mohammed Ali Hamdani... first two have since moved their practice to Lahore high court..
I also want to say that whatever bad blood was created between us should be forgotten, since we share so much of the same background ...

PAF College sargodha must be doing something right to produce so many open minded Pakistanis.


Aghaz...

Since your grandfather was one of the care takers of the ahle-hadith mosque I don`t know if you would want to hear this... my mother`s family is shiite... it is the simple Block 23 ... I don`t know if that is called A ... but it is probably not B.


-YLH

nazar:

with apology for this digression:

bina shah has posted this on unplugged and this needs wider exposure...it is an online petition against the stifling stranglehold of the Hudood Ordinances...please go to this site and if in agreement make your thoughts known
by signing up...a drop at a time makes the bucket full...

...t

nazar saheb:
I knew what you meant by ``support equipment``:-). I went on a study tour to a paharhi village in the `60s in UP and the situation was the same there. In that village, almost every other family had a man who was working as a domestic servant or labourer in Delhi or Bombay. And I found that the `support equipment` was one of the most sought after gift the husbands brought for their wives. It is ironic, therefore, that when the feminist movement started in the West, they burned their bras en mass in a public protest as a symbol of women`s empowerment.

BTW is there any old man in Sargodha who remembers a lawyer named Kohli? My wife claims that her grandfather was the most famous vakil of Sargodha before the partition.

tahmed32:parent`s cousins still live there but not many just 2-3, my first cousins maternal still in sargodha, paternal scattered in the world (from jehlum/lhr/khi/multan/states)-
Nazar Khan ji, is it possible that you can write your experiences during wars. Will be quite interesting.

What is that in Indian Air Force which their GDPs call `Flying Coffins`. Are they MIG-21s. I think their crash rate is one every 2.5 weeks for the past several years. As compared to that great Russian achievement, Pakistan`s home-made A-6s have much better safety record, doesn`t it. I don`t know how they compare in combat situations.

aghaaz #28 How about your cousins? Do they still live in 23 block? just curious.

Mantolives: where in 23 block, there are two, A & B, why i am asking coz we still got our home at 23Block Chowk. One of the qureshis, my grandfather dada abbu, used to be the caretaker of Ahle-Hadith Masjid nearby.
Why i said one of the qureshis, coz in 23 block they were spread all over, at all the four lanes of the 23 Block, we had 6 qureshi families, brothers of my grandfather (Mr. Tufail). My paternal & maternal grandparents all lived there, paternal has moved out to lahore now, and maternal are still there 32 Block. Just got curious.

ironman # 26

Here is some rusty knowledge:

I remeber F-6 ducked & pitched up while going through the transonic range. At slow speeds, in a high G turn, F-6 was a tricky aircraft to fly since it always wanted to go into an adverse yaw flick onto the opposite side. Unlike most jet fighters, it required inside rudder to cater for the the adverse yaw during a turn.

Otherwise, in a steep wings level climb, you could go to zero speed. Then it would fall like a hammer in verticle dive and swing like a pendulum until the speed increased; and one had the flight controls again effective. During this period, the pilot better keep all controls nuetral to avoid going into a spin.

Its engines had problms. Compressor stalls if throttles were rapidly pumped up. Also, the igniter-rods in the exhaust which lit up the after-burner fuel at times got twisted and burnt through the exhaust pipe. Thereafter, the hydraulic fuel lines close to the exhaust caught fire - and one lost the hydraulic system as well as had a fire situation. (I had twice such incidents)

It had pneumatic brakes with the brake handle located on the stick grip. The brakes, when heated, got carbonized (powder type carbon) and lost some the braking efficiency. After every flight, the carbon from the brakes was blown off by compressed air.

It had another funny thing. Different colour cartridges could be fired in the air to indicate the type of emergency - blue flare for radio failure and so on.

We ferried these aircraft from China with throat mikes. Subsequently, we put the normal UHF radio set with normal mike. The Chinese ejection seats, I think, were effective when above 1500 feet AGL. We installed Martin-Baker ejection seats with zero-zero capability - meaning one could safely eject out of the aircraft even at ground level and at zero speed.

F-104 had a smooth transfer to supersonic. (I flew F-104 very briefly)

Chuck Yaeger,

Wharere are you when we need you so much. A pakistani article about airforce withy out quoting chuck, see the neo-jihadis have abandoned you.

Nazar,

Thanks for the info.

The intakes look interesting. Single intake for 2 engines. I think only the lightning has a similar one.
Any interesting observations about intake instabilities creating engine problems during turns, take offs, landings?

Low aspect ratios don`t handle well at low speed. What do you feel about low speed handling capabilities of the mig19? I suppose any airplane was better than the F104 (widow-maker) at low speed.

Also interesting would be a description of your experience breaking the sound barrier in the mig19.


Thx,

Irfanahemed # 15

Please read my post # 4.

Friend # 18

Please read my post # 4.

hh # 7

Count me in the anti-war activists. 1971 was an unusal war where majority wanted to breakaway from the minority. It required a political solution and not a military one.
Some more about it later.

Manto # 10

Who are your lawyer Mammoos?
23 Block - quite familiar with it. Our city family house was 65-C Sattelite town which we sold and distributed the booty among ourselves. But we are actually spread out in the villages around - with some in cities or abroad. My two sisters still live there.

Urstruly # 9

Lots & lots of oranges. Yes. Kinoo (citrus with soft skin & sweet/sour taste) was a creation of Sargodha. Best quality in the world.

temporal # 11

Khalid Saeed Haroon, present DG Passports & Immigration, is from our course (42nd GD (p)

Ironman # 12

The Chinese aircraft require more maintenance as compared to the Americans, British, French aircraft . F-6 (Mig 19 Nato name ``Farmer``) engines required a maintenance check in hanger after every 100 hours. 100 hours was not its total life.
Chinese metullergy was poor and engines did give problems. F-6 was muti-engine.
The engine was thirsty on fuel, like all Chinese/Russian products (even tanks) but it had good thrust vis-e-vis its weight.

You certainly bring the experience of flying a jet plane to life in this article. Enjoyed reading this article. btw did you jet boys have the great romantic lives you are supposed to have. The closest I came was an evening at the nowshehra club with a distant cousin (Farooq, dont ask me his last name or where he is since I havent seen him in two decades) and a couple of his pals from risalpur training base, and was greatly impressed by their incredible ability to keep the row of army daughters sitting in front of us giggling throughout the movie being shown at the club.

Dost-mitter # 20

(since ``so far back in the times that their staple dress was confined to thin black cotton; quite transparent and without the usual female support equipment``. Have they started using burqa? During my parents days, burqa)

Female support equipment meant Bra not Burqa.

No. The village women do not wear Burqa. They are free - free to work in the fields -
Old style Burqa, in general, is finished in Pakistan.

In NWFP, yes, Burqa is used. Or Chaddar by elderly women. Shuttle-cock is only in frontier or adjoining Afghanistan.

Otherwise, Dopatta or Chaddor goes.
The Niqaab or Hijaab is becoming a fashion statement in upper classess. One finds girls in Banks, MBA`s, wearing Niqaab or Hijaab. But very few.

#15 irfanhamid

{{two frontline aircraft flown by equally competent pilots, who knows, maybe the dogfight and the furball isn`t a thing of the past.}}

There have been reported encounters between contemporary Russian aircraft in some obscure wars in Africa. Mig-29s and Su-27s (flown by Russian and Ukrainian mercenaries for Ethiopia and Eritrea) are know to have clashed over the Horn of Africa. Those encounters would have happened in conditions similar to those of the pre-AWACS era. The details of what happened are hard to come by.

#7 hh

{{7th september 1965 incident where 5 intruding indian planes were shot down in a matter of few minutes by MM alam}}

The story of MM Alam as Panch Mar Khan in ‘30 seconds over Sargodha’ received a big boost from ‘Battle for Pakistan’ by John Fricker, the PAF’s official hagiographer. It seems to have little basis in fact. Alam may have shot down 2 IAF Hunters on that day – not more.

nazar saheb:
You have combined your two loves - airplanes and Sargodah - in one article. Nice reading. Have the maidens of the surrounding villages changed since ``so far back in the times that their staple dress was confined to thin black cotton; quite transparent and without the usual female support equipment``. Have they started using burqa? During my parents days, burqa and `jhund` (among hindus and sikhs) was only for the middle classes (or the `sharif log` as they were called), the poorer women did not use them since presumably they were not supposed to have any `sharafat` to protect.
Did you get into any exciting action during the war that you might like to share?

sac:

....what is this about unpretentious and at ease fellows eschew sex?

..astaghfirullah!...you have just thrown a full toss;)

..t

Nazar Saheb,
Really an excellent writeup. Is that you in that photograph?

Adding to question posed by Veeresh, what was PAF`s impression of IAF`s GNAT and Migs?

nazar sahab:

First off, excellent article. Being an airforce brat myself, it holds special significance. As I read it I went down memory lane, saw myself sitting in the classrooms of one of the dozen PAF schools I`ve attented while a roar outside reminds us that we are next-door to the flightline (amazing how well a jet`s sound carries).

Ofcourse you are the fighter pilot here so don`t want to sound too presumptuous, but wanted to discuss with you your views on the evolution of the modern fighter aircraft. I guess it does seem that fighter flying has turned more into ``button-pusher`` warfare. But there was also another time in history when some people thought that close-in dogfights were a thing of the past and stopped installing Vulcans on F4s thinking the Sparrows (the BVR of that era) would be able to handle it. Then Vietnam happened, and the US learned some valuable lessons, the hard way. They ended up producing a modified version of the F4 (the J variant) with a built-in gun and creating the school at Miramar. What surprises me (pleasantly) is the fact that even in the 50s the PAF had enough foresight to order its 104s equipped with the Gatling (I seem to recall that the US versions weren`t).

I guess ever since this computerized avionics mania took over, there hasn`t been a real fair fight in the air which would be conducive to analysis. It`s usually the US taking out either the Libyans, Serbians or the Iraqis, which really does not show what it would be like with two frontline aircraft flown by equally competent pilots, who knows, maybe the dogfight and the furball isn`t a thing of the past.

Would like your views on this.

Regards,
Irfan Hamid.

Nazar sahib,

Your writings have that unpretentious feel of a man perfectly at ease with himself and the world around him......as long as you keep sex out of it :)

later
-sac

sargodha - worst machar in punjab.

nazarhayatkhan,

Enjoyable article.

Far more to know you believe in your own...family..country....religion...Trying to it give back. You are actually human.

Two questions. Take your time. Even if you ever want to inter-act... take your time. No answer is AOK

1) Why do you think your own army has to worry about not only external but internal issues. Are they hiding something?

2) Let us assume all your armed forces are 1 mil. Multiply it by 10. 10 Mil. Why do you think rest 130 mil are assumed idiots. Let us multiply by 20. Why rest 120 mils are still are considered to be idiots? Because they are.....

Romair??


I can ask same questions to my own country called India. Never worried about FV or abcd. Gosh ...Kargil never mattered to her ... Most killed were Indoos.. THE common Indian.....Do not worry ... If we bred FV, you can rear your own army.

Also want to salute about education. Sargodha or something?

Tell Sadna. There was and is publically paid for education institutions all over India. Technically she is right. No army. I wish we should.... when FV proves she is THE common Indian.

I like sour soup. But that is a starter. Only once in a while. Some times I get acidity.

Yogiraj Patil

Nazar,

Yeager says (sorry Veeresh!) in his book about these chinese migs being good for a 100 hours before being junked. Also that the PAF was able to get an additional 40 hours out of them. What do you think?

He also said about having fitted american sidewinders on chinese rails. Comments.

Nazarhayatkhan:

Very well written memoires. Hats off to you.

I have never been to this city. The closest I came to it was when I visited Kalabagh Wildlife Refuge (basically for Punjab Urial) in 1983. We had a classmate in Edwards College, who had done his matriculation from a school in Rawalpindi. When he told us that he had to appear in Sargodha Board for his matric examinations, all I remember thinking is, `` what the he*l. A guy from Rawalpindi appears in Sargodha board huh``?

nazar:

nice article with just the right blend...

is that you in the picture?..reminded me of `waheed-s`...memory is hazy somewhat but perhaps he was on c-130s...

...were you khalid-s`s colleague?

rgds,

t

Nazar Hayat Khan,

Here on chowk, I have been a long time fan of the PAF... (though not of PAF`s education system prevalent in many of its institutions) ... What planes did you fly... and which one do you rate the best?


On Sargodha... that is my mother`s city, where my nana abu did his practice, where my mamus still are respected lawyers on the bar council, where my nana`s father had received his honorary magistrate title from Punjab Government of Sir Sikandar... where in 23 Block my family owns a beautiful old style mansion, and where I spent a few years of my life at PAF College Sargodha.. but what is Sargodha today? An underdeveloped, over-populated urban nightmare... My heart pains when I look at the mess Sargodha is...

It is a city of beautiful people, and a great amount of history both PAF and otherwise... it deserves much better than its got!


-YLH

It was well written and it was delight to read.

You forgot oranges of Sargodha, the best in mid western panjab

Thanks for sharing this with us Nazar Khan sahib, the details of the Mig were not known to me and am quite interested in the working of these fighting falcons` propulsion systems. The details of the aircraft motions during fast and slow speeds that you have mentioned here almost make me feel the aerodynamics... as if I were in the machine being rocked and tossed while I held on for dear life at the stick! Anyway, it was good to read something in honor of this magnificent machine.

Would like to hear more of your adventures and experiences with the Migs.

My parents & Inlaws are from Sargodha, Sharbat Chowk still the last bazar to close at night, just after 1:00am. Rest of the places/shops closed by 11:30pm.
Yes now there are many clinics, rather the area which used to be called Satellite Town, on both sides of the road you will find all different clinics & hospitals with the furniture shops.
Lots of the things changed, I think those ppl who visited it long time ago, do remeber the BOMB CHOWK :) near the Park, well its been moved from there and now a bridge has been build. So now sargodha owns two bridges.
Its Gol Chowk, is same place with all the hussle bussle. Although i dont have any good memories associated with Sargodha but still since visited it recently so just giving update about the changes for those who have ``once`` visited it.

Very Well Written Khan Sahib

It is indeed a small world as whilst reading this article, I refered to my uncle(Captain Atyab Ahmed) who is visiting from Pakistan, who happened to be sitting in that very same roon. He recognised you straight away, and was junior to you in the PAF. I believe he is still a junior colleague of yours at CAA. As I said, it is indeed a very small world.

Keep us reminding of the simplicity of how things used to be and reminding us of how irrationally complicated they have become.

Regards

Syed Ali

nice article Nazar Sb. you have painted a very nice picture of sargodha, with all its contrasts.

i have many friends in PAF and ive heard a lot about the F-6 (or MIG-19) from them.

you didnt mention which period you were talking about. was it after the `71 war? s rgodha is also famous for the 7th september 1965 incident where 5 intruding indian planes were shot down in a matter of few minutes by MM alam.

veeresh, hunter was considered to be a better plane before the `65 war started, but the older F-86 proved to be better. I am not sure how MIG 19 compares with Hunter or Gnat buiut considering that it was supposedly better a nd newer technology than F-86, it would be better than the two planes you mentioned.

what would you say to thiss Nazar Sahib?

please also relate your war experiences... they should be interesting.

regards

Veeresh # 2

Aircraft comparisons can be quite misleading. Half of the game is how these are deployed/utilized.

Hunter, Gnat & Mig 19 are old generation aircraft of the days of visual combat with minimal avionics. But generally, the considerations are as follows:

- High max speed for fast closing in the target/fast exit from area.
- High thrust/weight ratio for rapid acceleration and sustained high G manaouvering.
- Short radius of turn for quickly getting behind the enemy.
- Long range & endurance for obvious reasons.
- Weapons load carriage capacity.
- Accuracy of weapon system.
- Multiple purpose capability.

Mig-19 & Gnat are air defence aircraft. And hunter is a multi-purpose aircraft (Air Defence & Strike)

The new generation aircraft have been reduced to mere platforms with real work being done by the avionics & weapon systems. The pilot skill is perhaps required only for the carrier landings. The other crew member is a weapon system opertor.

Now the Air warfare is more like the old Naval Armada battles:

- Aircraft with inbuilt radar & Ecm equipment.
- Air-to-air refueller to give unlimited range & endurance.
- Dedicated electronics counter (jamming/intelligence) measures aircraft part of the armada.
- Awacs aircraft to provide wide area radar coverage.
- Command and Control aircraft in the armada.
- Laser guided munitions. (ground or air laser lighting)
- GPS guided munitions.
- Beyond visual range air-to-air missiles.
- Carrier providing a moving operating base.

Nice article. Brings back memories. Sargodha is a nice place. The college was very nice. You forgot to mention the halwa puri, and the Punjabi movies, Shaheen Chowk and Sharbat Chowk.

Sirji good article thanks, am forwarding it to the AF types in my family. Question - how were the MIG-19s rated against the Gnats and Hunters with the IAF in the same era, any comments?

(One request - let us all please keep Chuck Yeager out of this?)

At last...a real PAF man! Last 4 years on chowk we were thinking your airforce had only one pilot.

Good reading Khan sahab!