Jaipur Dreams

Jay # 121

(India is central to pakistani politics and society. But for india pakistan and kashmir is only marginal)

To understand the Pakistani society, one has to visualize its various pressure groups - the man on the street, mainstream political parties, religious parties and the establishment (means Army + ISI)

Your statement is right in its generality but the intensity of hostlity towards India + the use of war as an instrument to get Kashmir has chnaged in the last about two decades in Pakistan.

The mainstream political parties have stopped talking about War with India; and they all talk of resolution of issues with India. Only today I read Benazir`s statement ``open and safe borders with India without compromising on UN resolutions``

The venom of religious parties has been deflected towards America - and against the cultural onslought of the West. Fazlur Rehman visit to India must have given that impression too.

The man on the street, who goes by the folk wisdom and gut feeling, was much ahead of the politicians - for his desire for peace + a search for prosperity.

Right now, I think it is only the establishment which has the hardest stand against India and an impatience for Kashmir. The response to the Indian peace offers was never debated in the parliament - it took a painful one week with ifs & buts - and the foreign offices of both countries suffer from a traditional departmental combative urge.

In general, after the successive military take overs, the thinking minds are undergoing a serious introspection of this all - more so the political parties because they have borne the major brunt. There are inner conflicts and contradictions that need to be resolved - Religion & its place, Secularism, TNT, Democracy - Chowk gives every other day an article on these issues as these confusions tend to surface spontaneouly - a crisis of identity and direction if you will -

For India also, Pakistan does matter, though not to that degree. A friendly and a prosperous Pakistan would be a good influence multipliar for India - for its place in the region and in the world - not to speak of the the physical access that it would give to India towards the West - Afghanistan, Central Asia, Iran, Middle East.

(This is very different from entreprnaurial success, only a few are gifted with it. These have come up through the system as you might call it, a system that recognises merrit. Pakistan is very far away from it)

After coming up of some good educational institutions, lately the private companies have gone merit orientated. In the education field, there is a new scheme whereby about 300 qualified teachers will be imported yearly from abroad with commensurate salaries.

But merit recognition is still a problem.

#122 by jay on November 1, 2003 10:35pm PT
{Now let me tell you a story, a real life one. Two years ago I tried to get a job for a fresh engineering graduate ..}

Jay, that’s an excellent story. As more and more Indian companies become globally competitive, they will have to harness all the talent available in India, irrespective of ethnicity/religion/caste, to stay alive on the competitive treadmill.

Another benefit over time will be incentive for Indian states to provide proper protection for all citizens. No matter what our young tiger (Gujjubania) says, Gujrat must have lost some points in the eyes of Indian/global investment scouts when compared against stable southern states.

#123 by jay on November 1, 2003 10:35pm PT
{Korea and Taiwan}

Jay, the kid (Gujjubania) is not that off the mark as your post indicates. Korean, or Japanese brand name successes were based upon initial foundations of freewheeling manufacturing (or, whatever makes money as you put it) of small toys, umbrellas, cameras or whatever. For East Asians that brought in money, manufacturing confidence, contacts with international manufacturing standards and most important, got the competitive juices flowing in their businessmen. The benefits of manufacturing reach the lowest of the low (and that has benefits of its own). While knowledge based software or other engineering design work is very prestigious, the benefits are mainly to the middle class and gifted people. There is nothing wrong with that except that it will take long time before lower rungs of our society see much benefits from it.

While I give Nehru full credit for all the great institutes, you guys sound like IITs and freer economic system at the time were mutually exclusive. Nehru was a brilliant man and his love for education and science was admirable. He was also a socialist who did not fully trust the western economic model. That blind spot, my friend, kept us from realizing our full potential sooner.

Another point, “Nehru’s IITs” by themselves cannot be credited for all of our recent successes, although they were major enablers. Quite a few planets aligned for us and we were lucky to be at the right place at the right time. If there would not have been any major need for knowledge workers/software engineers (starting in late eighties) and economic reforms in India 1991 had not taken place, we would still be exporting our smart graduates to west for opportunities while Chinese would have kept providing manufacturing employment opportunities to their poor and building skyscrapers in their major cities.

Nazar 108,

India is central to pakistani politics and society. But for india pakistan and kashmir is only marginal. After 1971 most of the people at least in the south had forgotten about pakistan till the kargill invasion, when even in towns in Kerala had military men given the final honours.
Kashmir issue had never been a very important issue, and it will never be, for decades there had been naga land troubles, the nuxalites, the hindu ,uslim stuff in parts of gujarat and maharashtra, the karnatake tamilnadu killings o..the list goes on. In a country of more than a billion we have lived with the fault lines for a long time.

Even with out the pak issue india would have still had a military of more or less same proportions. Right now there is a peak in spending, this is for new technilogy of aerial refueling, AWACS etc but are on a sustainable basis.

What has changed in my generation is a rapid shift in social values, where a a generation of people have come to the top simply because of education. Having graduated in engineering more than 30 years ago, my class mates are now in senior positions, a few are chief engineers in govt departments like electricity boards, irrigation etc and I was amazed to find that none of them had any wealth significantly more than what one could assume. This was in sharp contrast to what I saw in childhood when a public works junior engineer lived like a king.

Nazar 108,

Now let me tell you a story, a real life one. Two years ago I tried to get a job for a fresh engineering graduate and I thought it may not be all that difficult. I know very senior people in some large private companies, which in my day would have been very easy because the recruitment process were not very formalised.
I was in for a rude shock, none of them would even entertain the idea of bringing some one in. They said it is a question of credibility, and pointed out that their own children are at smaller companies. They have achived those positions through hard work, well no doubt about it, they work even on sundays, and they simply cannot tarnish those records.

I felt they were a bit harsh, the zealousness of a new converts, even in the west the recruitments are not that objective. If I am confindent about the furure of india, it is simply because of this fundamnetal shift in the vlaues. There was a time, I do long for it, when helping the family was supreme, now that has been branded as a crime, nepotism, and that is pathetic.

This I believe is the fundam,ental problem between india and pakistan. When romairs criticises the feudals, ylh attacks the faujis the underlying reality is that there are no role models in pakistan where a child from a poor background can rise to the top simply because of studies and hardwork, with out any familial, caste and community connections.

This is very different from entreprnaurial success, only a few are gifted with it. These have come up through the system as you might call it, a system that recognises merrit. Pakistan is very far away from it.

At the highest level look at the pak proposal to india. Pakistan will provide medical assistance to the rape victimes of kashmir. This paased the highest civil service in pakistan, it passed the elitest military, it passed the foreign relations scholars. This is the ultimate proof of pakistans state, as the saying goes`` $$it rises to the top in pakistan, as it happens in a cess pool``.

gujju 115,

There are two fundamentally different economic models emerging in asia. One is the Tahiwan model where it is a production base used by various essentially western and japanese manufacturers. This is symbolised the absence of any Taiwanese Brand name produts from Taiwan.
Another mpdel is from Korea. Hyundai, Samsung ets are today global brands with production at times from Taiwan.

India is following the Korean model, a few brands have emerged Asian paints, Titan watches apart from the IT sector. The fundamantal reason for this can be found in the Nehruein ideals of self reliance, one has to have everything with a strong emphesis on education and indian identity.

China is following the Taiwan model, what ever that brings in money is great. So the comparison with chinese cultare influence countries with india is fundamentally flawed because it does not take into account the socuial values.

Nehrus contribution to india is that of a vision when he said while inaugerating the Sindhri fertilizer plant ( pl check this up harimau.)...`` these are the temples of modern india``.

It took a while for this vision to become reality when the Japanes prime minister skipped visit to agra and preferred visit to Infosys campus in Bangalore. Nehru should have been happy.

gujjubania #97


“I don`t want to be too critical since this is a Paki site and any criticism of India or Indians past or present only serves to make their day better ”


...sheesh...get a grip, kid...pakis have better things to do then come on some random website and get their highs off of any ``criticism of india``...what is it they feed you down in gujarat?...

An excellent Diwali & Ramzan gift here on CHOWK from Zia Ahmed.

These sentiments are not uncommon in (at least) over 10 Million families in Pakistan

who have ties to kin in India.

Indians and Pakistanis have to get out of this Kashmir mess to move on.

This writing somewhat reminded me of Kamila Shamsie`s book ``Salt and Saffron``.

Ras

Gujju

We also criticize Nehru for not having gone the freer capitalist route. I too would like to see George F. become the next Prime Minister of India (although he won`t both because his political base is limited, and because India is yet not so mature as to accept a non-Gandhi Christian Prime Minister).

Still, as someone said, Nehru`s role in India was no less critical than George Washington`s role was in the US. One does`t have to agree with all this policies to appreciate that fact.

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Gajjubania # 112

(As far as psychological parity is concerned - I would lay more stress on the economics rather than on nukes or defence. Over the last decade India has totally outperformed Pakistan in almost all economic parameters. Infact India`s per capita is today higher than Pakistan`s per capita by a 1000$. Enough said)

There is no arguement on the Indian progress in the economic field. That is where Pakistan should have concentrated in the last few decades instead of a foolish compitition with a country 7 times its size - and an obsession with Kashmir -

If for nothing else, than for the reasons of centuries old shared history.

But I think the biggest achievement of India during the last 56 years has been its evolution of a stable political system. It is this stable political system that has now begun to bear its fruit.

On the nuclear side, it was best to continue with that ``bomb in the basement`` policy - at best. And in the nuclear game, it is the capability that causes parity - not the numbers.

At times, the people do need a psychological uplifting - Post 71. But this issue can be debated. Pakistan should have honestly carried out an introspection after 1971 - found out its root causes - and then chartered its new course of action.

Considering it a military defeat and lumping all blame on India was wrong. It was basically a political failure & not a military defeat. India went along with the elected majority party along with the rest of world. If it took advantage of the situation, it was in its national interest. If Pakistan failed to exploit the 1962 India-China war, it was its folly.

(India`s nukes are indigenous , unlike Pakistan whose nukes and missiles are imported from China and N.Korea)

Knowing something about the issue, let me tell you that it is purely Pakistani technology - devious, stolen - OK. China did not have the centrefuge technology. Similarly, this Korean stuff that keeps coming in the international media is wrong to the best of my knowledge.

I only wish we had put in all this effort into education.

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harimau,

``Indian Institute of Science is commonly known in Bangalore as the Tata Institute.``

I can vouch for that! On my first visit to IIsc, I asked the auto driver to take me to `Indian Institute of Science`. He nodded and we drove for about 45 minutes till we reached a hospital of some kind. At the gate I learnt that IIsc was actually at the other end of the city...and nobody called it `Indian Institute of Science`...but Tata Institute!

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Guys,

Everything in India starting with ``Indian Institute of...`` is NOT a legacy of Jawaharlal Nehru.

Indian Institute of Science is commonly known in Bangalore as the Tata Institute. That is because IISc was founded in 1909 by J. N. Tata. The land itself was donated by the Maharaja of Mysore.

All you need to do is a simple Google search and you come up with IISc`s home page where you can get a brief history at the following URL.

http://www.iisc.ernet.in/about/

By the way, the alumni refer to their alma mater as Insitute of Science or, among themselves, as The Insitute.

Yours in the interest of verity,

Harimau
Chowk`s Resident Historian