Jaipur Dreams

one of the most beautifully written pieces I have read. excellent. tho the tone is totally FLIPPED and almost lost in the last paragraph, a very flowing, well written piece. Kudos. Four-thumbs up! ;)

Gujjubania

I would expect you to realize by now that the real ENEMY is in the Pakistani elites who have used Islam to legitimize their exitence. Rest of the guys below them are compradors who lick the boots of these elites in order to climb up the social ladder. These are fence sitters who would abandon a sinking ship- whether Bibi, Mian or Mush. These are the real parasites, who prey upon the dead flesh left by the Elites of Pakistan. You cannot change them. They would serve their masters- that is the way Pakistan has been always and would remain.

If you love India and its secular traditions then you should fight the dictators and mullahs who use Islam or Hindu Gita to legitimize their positions. You should fight those who raise armies of killers to kill innocents and claim that it was sanctioned by the divine. Those who let the mobs rape and loot and quote scriptures to remove any traces of guilt that may strain their consience when the memories of their victims flash in their minds. these b@stard Elites are our real enemy- they are enemies of humanity. THey are also in your Modi`s Shakhas, in the RSS ranks- they are the real enemies of humanity. They would quote scriptures to remove their guilt of raping and killing muslim women in Gujrat.

I hope you aim at the real actors in the play - and not Islam which has been much mis-used by the B@stards to continue their evil ways of killing and loot.

Ballukhan #152

``Replace ``PAkistan`` with ``Gujrat`` and the sentences can be read...``

What a zinger that was.....hope gujju realizes how ludicrous he has been sounding.


gujjubania

Please don`t think you love India any more than us. You may be very young and hotheaded. Still we all need to develop a broader perspective. That is what living in, and working to build, a plularistic society is all about.

Ballukhan #152

What Pakistan`s intentions have been could not be clearer when this same Javed Nasir was appointed the head of the Paksitani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee.

Many people from Pakistan did not know this. It is amazing how little Pakistanis know of Pakistan.

Reg: #145 by gujjubania on November 3, 2003 8:19am PT

``These barbaric acts constitute the
collective guilt of the entire Pakistani nation, which every
Pakistani-including the Najam Sethis-must share and pay for. There is
absolutely no ground, no justification, for a schizophrenic
distinction between those who wield power in Pakistan and the rest.``


Replace ``PAkistan`` with ``Gujrat`` and the sentences can be read in the context of Gujrat riots. I hope that atleast you also feel ashamed for the omissions and commissions of the Modi government in the gujrat riots.

nothing less than dis-integration of India will satisfy the Army Generals !!!!

Lt. General Javed Nasir is one of Pakistan`s ``thinking Generals``. He has been head of the ISI. He is among the Generals who were associated with Pakistan`s successes in Afghanistan. Not just a typical voice, therefore, a crucial one. Recall that Nawaz Sharif made his desperate flight to Washington on July 3, that he signed the capitulatory joint-statement with Clinton on July 4. On July 1 -- that is, just three days before Nawaz Sharif had to accept that Pakistan would withdraw behind the Line of Control -- Lt. General Javed Nasir was telling Pakistanis that India was on the brink of defeat and collapse and disintegration! Readers would have concluded that the Indian defeat was so overwhelming that Vajpayee had as good as lost his mind!


Defeat in Kargil will spell disaster at the polls, that is what is staring Vajpayee in the face, this former controller of the ISI wrote. ``He was angry,`` the General wrote, describing, no doubt from secret sources of the ISI, a meeting of the Indian Prime Minister with our Service Chiefs, ``froth coming out of his mouth, shaking with anger, a little bit stammering [sic.], he let the Khakis have it.`` ``I order you to throw them out, otherwise there will be large-scale sackings irrespective of ranks.``


The Kargil operation has already inflicted unbearable cost on India, the General calculated. Each shell of Bofors costs a thousand dollars, his spies told him; in just one week India has fired nearly 30,000 rounds, his sources on the front told him. That means India has burnt up three billion dollars in just one week, his calculator indicated. And now India will have to spend another ten billion dollars to replace the barrels of the guns. Four days earlier, in another article, the General had recalled how, at the time of the Lahore Bus diplomacy, in an article in The Nation, ``I had implored the Pakistani Army and Mujahideen to interdict the Srinagar-Drass road to make things more difficult for the Indians in Siachin. The Mujahideen executed a brilliant plan.`` His brilliant plan having been executed so brilliantly, Indians are on the run, the General informed his countrymen.


And for good and obvious reasons, he said. ``Whereas the Mujahideen are fighting for a just cause and Shahadat is the greatest honour they can receive and as such they are fighting for this noble objective, the Indian soldiers are highly demoralized. Most of them have already completed their Kashmir tenure and want to go back to the safety of the mainland. They are being forced into the attacks and kept in Kashmir against their will. They only fulfil the formality of attack.`` This plain truth was being portrayed by Pakistan TV, he said, and that is why the Indian Government banned it! But Indians continue to watch Pakistan TV ``for factual and correct situation``, using dish antennas, he said, ``despite house raids by police``! All we have to do is to keep the road to Siachin closed, he wrote the next day. That will force India to spend Rs 30-40 crore a day, ``which will break the Indian back``! The General painted even rosier gardens. If the Indian Army can be prevented from retaking the Kargil positions, Vajpayee will be forced to lunge into Pakistan crossing the LoC. This prospect ``offers the Pakistan Army the opportunity of the century to redeem its honour and take revenge for Dhaka.`` Once Pakistan makes a major penetration into India, the Sikhs will get and grab ``the opportunity of the millennium to rise and play havoc with India`s lines of communications.`` And once there is a major setback to India in Punjab, ``the Sikh dream of Khalistan will become a reality.`` And that will induce the Tamils to revolt in the South, and the Nagas and the Mizos to proclaim their Unilateral Declaration of Independence``!


Faced with disintegration, Vajpayee will have to opt for the nuclear option, the General forecast. Therefore, he counseled the world, before India reaches that point, the world should solve the Kashmir problem ``in accordance with the resolutions of the Security Council.`` Q E D! Not only has Pakistan the opportunity of a century because of the bind in which India is caught, Allah has conferred a special boon on Pakistan to enable it to avail of this opportunity, the General`s reasoning went. And what is that boon? ``In Parvez Musharraf we have an excellent General,`` he explained, ``who has the blend of dynamism (his SSG background) and superb professionalism. Allah chose him for this occasion. He will not only deliver but deliver beyond expectations of all. He is the gift of Allah to the nation.``


The only thing to guard against is American perfidy, the General wrote. On his reckoning, the Pakistan Army has won each and every war with India, and it is only the USA, ``which has a history of betrayals towards Pakistan,`` that has compelled Pakistan to forgo what it had won on the ground! General Hamid Gul, an even more formidable former head of the ISI, was announcing victories in even more vivid colours. ``General Gul predicts Indian troops surrender,`` ran the headlines of The Pakistan Observer on 27 June. That the Indians were concentrating so many troops in the area is all to the good, General Gul told the paper. Soon, the monsoon will set in, and they will be trapped in ``the hills, dales and jungles of Kashmir while this terrain is familiar and friendly to the Mujahideen.`` ``He said,`` the paper reported, ``it is pre-ordained that this military machine that subjected Kashmiris to terrorism will be humiliated and disgraced at the hands of a handful of Mujahideen.``

Ref gujjubania #147

[``Over 10 million children are out of school in Bihar and Eastern UP. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION FOR THEM???? Or do you think they will learn to read and write by ``being anti-pakistani``??? ``

Blame Chacha Nehru for that . He ensured that government of India spent 3 or 4 times more on colleges than on schools .]

As a very high official in India once told me, if money had gone to elementary and secondary education instead of export-quality IITs, India would have become Communist. Remember that Kerala and West Bengal, the earliest states to go Communist, had and continue to have higher than average literacy rates.

Chacha Nehru? My friend referred to him as Bandit Nehru!

Ref nooralain #140

[harimau. . .
what did you not understand about the peanut gallery being closed today? honestly. . .simple english just isn`t accessible by chowkwallahs these days. what to do??? read my words...]

Aw mom, you are taking away all the fun in coming to Chowk.

I think the point that I was trying to make was about the Pakistani Army, ISI and its demented Generals - Public opinion is fluid (every army General knows that in Pakistan ``legitimacy`` is about making right type of noises about how ``fair, just and progressive`` the ruler is) and can be changed through media in Pakistan- only if Army Generals let the media, papers, radio and their text books talk about secularism.
Any attempt to construe the posts as PAki muslim bashing is BS!!!

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-11-2003_pg3_3

Daily Times, Pakistan
Tuesday, November 04, 2003

[The Muslims of South Asia do not have any automatic right to enter Pakistan as the Jews have to enter Israel under the so-called Law of Return. Is this consistent with the founding ideology of Pakistan, the two-nation theory?]

Pakistan and South Asian Muslims
By Ishtiaq Ahmed

[The author is an associate professor of Political Science at Stockholm University. He is the author of two books. His email address is Ishtiaq.Ahmed@statsvet.su.se]

Among the various tragedies attendant upon the break-up of Pakistan in 1971, when East Pakistan became Bangladesh, is the unresolved status of some 250,000 Biharis stranded in Bangladeshi refugee camps. The Biharis, an Urdu-speaking people originally from the north-eastern Indian state of Bihar, migrated to East Pakistan when the subcontinent was partitioned in 1947 between Hindu-majority India and Muslim-majority Pakistan.

Most of the Biharis sided with Pakistan during the 1971 Bengali uprising. That made them a pariah group in Bangladesh. Most of them want to immigrate to Pakistan and have refused to acquire Bangladeshi citizenship, claiming that they are Pakistanis and therefore entitled to set up hearth and home in Pakistan. Under international law, if the Biharis wish to remain Pakistanis there is no reason to refuse them permission to settle in Pakistan. Some Bihari families have been allowed to join their kin in Pakistan but the bulk has been denied this birthright.

Does this make sense? No. We have brought Pakistan almost to the point of veritable economic ruination by our uncompromising support for the Kashmiris’ right of self-determination but we do not give most of our bona fide citizens their basic right to clean water, education and a meal because our priority is ‘defence spending’ for an inevitable war with arch-enemy India.

But letting Biharis relocate in Pakistan would surely not cost dearly. They are only 250,000 altogether. Thanks to lack of education about family planning we are adding 250,000 babies every week if not every day to our burgeoning population, so why not let the Biharis who fought alongside our glorious army to save Pakistan, become Pakistanis in the proper sense? There is no reasonable answer. There cannot be one.

From what I have gathered listening to well-informed Pakistanis the implicit understanding is that since Bangladesh is a Muslim country the Biharis should seek Bangladeshi citizenship and try becoming a part of that nation –which would mean learning Bengali and assimilating into that culture. This is perfectly reasonable advice and the Biharis must consider it seriously.

But we don’t give a similar advice to the Kashmiri Muslims to seek a future within the Indian union. The reason ostensibly is that India is not a Muslim state and therefore the situation of Biharis is not comparable. Granted that is true, but what about Indian Muslims wanting to come to Pakistan? Well, they did not do that in 1947 and now it is too late. Moreover, they are 140 million and that is too many!

The only conclusion we can draw from such evasive gibberish is that the Muslims of South Asia do not have any automatic right to enter Pakistan as the Jews have to enter Israel under the so-called Law of Return. Is this consistent with the founding ideology of Pakistan, the two-nation theory?

When Iqbal in 1930 presented his idea of a Muslim state (confined only to north-western India, excluding the Muslims of Bengal and the Hindu-majority provinces) at the annual session of the All-India Muslim League in Allahabad the quorum of 70 members was not complete. Hafeez Jalladhari had to keep on reciting his ‘Shah Nama’ while the organisers frantically searched for individuals to fill the quorum so that the resolution could be passed.

Chowdhari Rahmat Ali coined the name PAKISTAN in 1933. His idea was dismissed as a student’s wild dream. That did not discourage Rahmat Ali who developed a whole range of pious names — Siddiqistan, Farooqistan, Hyderastan, Osmanistan and so on — for independent Muslim enclaves in Hindu majority areas. He even proposed a Guruistan for Sikhs and some name for a state for the Dravidian peoples of South India. The Muslim League leaders dismissed him as an eccentric and a charlatan and he in turn never forgave Jinnah for accepting a Pakistan consisting only of the north-eastern and north-western zones of India.

With the wisdom of the hindsight we can argue that Jinnah’s Pakistan was more realistic even though its realisation resulted in a huge loss of life and the biggest forced migration in history. Rahmat Ali’s scheme of mini Muslim states amid predominantly Hindu-majority regions would certainly have multiplied communal killings and magnified the scale of ethnic cleansing. Such a scheme would have surely hurt Muslims the most since they were surrounded by Hindu majorities.

That did not deter Rahmat Ali. He wrote letter after letter to conservative British lords pleading for their support and patronage for his idea of several Muslim states. Why he should have hoped for the support of arch imperialists is a mystery which has never been clarified. Some people allege that Rahmat Ali was in the pay of the colonial office which used him from time to time to say things that would keep Hindus and Muslims at loggerheads. However, there is no solid evidence to prove this.

Apart from East Punjab where ethnic cleansing was almost complete, several of the staunchest protagonists of the Pakistan demand, among them Raja Sahib Mahmudabad, Hasrat Mohani, Begum Aizaz Rasul, Nawab Mohammad Ismail Khan, Raja of Pirpur (author of the Pirpur Report of 1937) and Mohammad Asadullah of Assam, chose to stay in India. Some left for Pakistan later but others who had gone to Pakistan returned to India. Why? I don’t know, but it is something on which more research needs to be done. On the whole it was primarily the upper middle-class and the salariat that immigrated to Pakistan.

Pakistan came into being in those areas where Muslims were in a majority. Such areas did not need as much protection from Hindu Raj as those in which Muslims were in a minority. Most of them were converts from Dalit and other depressed sections of society. They needed more help than anyone else in coming to Pakistan, but they were advised to become good and loyal Indians. I am sure the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh also come from the poorest sections of society and therefore they too have no takers in Pakistan.

#147 gujjubania

I think we understand you very well. You are happy to blame others for EVERYTHING, and ready to take responsibility for NOTHING.

Don`t waste our time any further...

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#145 gujjubania

What connection is there between murder of indian soldiers by Pakistanis and indian muslims???? Did Aziz Premji torture indian soldiers? Did President Kalam sneak up on them and kill them???? Have your brains been completely removed by Ashok Singhal???

Your logic is totally bogus (and frankly disgusting!). When you add to it statements like: ``Every patriotic Indian MUST be anti-Pakistan.`` then we know you are a complete fanatic and nut-case.

Patriotic indians should support india. They should help it advance and keep it secure. They should worry about the welfare of indians and advance CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions. If India is attacked by jihadis or militaries they should help respond. All of this has NOTHING to do with hating or loving any country.

Over 10 million children are out of school in Bihar and Eastern UP. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION FOR THEM???? Or do you think they will learn to read and write by ``being anti-pakistani``???

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``#139 by harimau on November 2, 2003 7:41pm PT
Ref nooralain #137``


You are alway.. well-come madam. Because we are not Urs.... The chosen ones for 1400 years. The only torch bearers.

BTW

You cannot be anybody in Pakistan ...every one knows. Barring you and that idiot JAY, and yes also one from some god forsaken country call Male....

Urstru.... decides. Not you. Never you. You are 50% officially if you are muslim woman. 0% if you are not. Choose. And if you say so openly. Get killed.


There are 25 streets honouring Abus the Noble...100 buildings. 500 Murals ... There is a special festival in ....Your PM has decided the best in ...Has called Urs and Romair. They will honour Abdus... He will (Urs ) open a shop on 101 on pity. PM will humbly...

Hing loving Indoo, Jay never rails on him. He knows. What else any `man` in your forsaken country does. Rail on woman??? Sharia. Never. He will enforce...And what will you do?

Choose. Be pro-choice.

Yogiraj

PS

Always welllllllll come in Hind loving country. We have NOOO problem

I want all to analyse this conversation between Mush and Aziz

May 26 Tapes

The following is the Verbatim record of the full conversation between General Pervez Musharraf and Lt General Mohammed Aziz on May 26, 1999. The transcript was released during the External Affairs Minister`s Press Briefing on June 11, 1999 in New Delhi.

Pak end: Lt General Mohammed Aziz, Chief of General Staff

China end: General Pervez Musharraf, Chief of Army Staff

P: How is the visit going?

C: Yes, very well, Ok. And, what else is the news on that side?

P: Ham-dul-ullah. There is no change on the ground situation. They have started rocketing and straffing. That has been upgraded a little. It has happened yesterday also and today. Today high altitude bombing has been done.

C: On their side, in those positions?

P: In those positions, but in today`s bombing about three bombs landed on our side of the Line of control. No damage, Sir.

C: Is it quite a lot?

P: Sir, about 12-13 bombs were dropped, from which three fell on our side, which does not appear to be a result of inaccuracy. In my interpretation, it is a sort of giving of a message that if need be, we can do it on the other side as well. It is quite distance apart. Where the bombs have been dropped, they have tried to drop from a good position where they are in difficulty, from behind the LoC but they have fallen on our side of the LoC. So I have spoken to the Foreign Secretary and I have told him that he should make the appropriate noises about this in the Press.

C: They (Indians) should also be told.

P: That we have told, Foreign Secretary will also say and Rashid will also say. He will not, generally speaking, make any such mistake about those other bombs falling on the other side, our stand should be that all these bombs are falling on our side. We will not come into that situation. The guideline that they have given, we have stressed that we should say that this build-up and employment of air strike which has been done under the garb of....us (?), actually they are targetting our position on the LoC and our logistic build-up, these possibly they are taking under the garb having intention for operation the craft (?) Line of Control, and this need to be taken note of and we would retaliate in kind.... is what happened? So, the entire build-up we want to give this colour.

C: Absolutely OK. Yes, this is better. After that, has there been any talk with them? Any meetings etc?

P: Yeserday, again, in the evening.

C: Who all were there?

P: Actually, we insisted that a meeting should be held, because otherwise that friend of ours, the incumbent of my old chair, we thought lest he give some interpretation of his own, we should do something ourselves by going there.

C: Was he little disturbed. I heard that there was some trouble in Sialkot.

P: Yes, There was one in Daska. On this issue there was trouble. Yes, he was little disturbed about that but I told him that such small things keep happening...(?) and we can reply to such things in a better way.

C: Absolutely.

P: There is no such thing to worry.

C: So that briefing to Mian Seheb that we did, was the forum the same as where we had done previously? There, at Jamshed`s place?

P: No. In Mian Saheb`s office.

C: Oh I see. There. What was he saying?

P: From here we had gone -- Choudhary Zafar Saheb, Mehmood, myself & Tauqir. Because before going, Tauqir had spoken with his counterpart. We carried that tape with us.

C: So, what was he (Indian counterpart) saying?

P: That is very interesting. When you come, I will play it for you. Its focus was that these infiltrators, who are sitting here, they have your help and artillery support, without which they could not have come to J&K. This is not a very friendly act and it is against the spirit of the Lahore Declaration. Then Tauqir told him that if your boys tried to physically attack the Line of Control and go beyond it....and that the bombs were Planted on the Turtok bridge and the dead body received in the process was returned with military honours and I said, I thought that there wan good enough indication you would not enter into this type of misadventure, and all this build-up that you are doing

---

one or more brigade strength & 50-60 aircraft are being collected. These are excuses for undertaking some operations against the verious spaces, so I had put him on the defensive. Then he said the same old story. He would put three points again and again that they (militants) should not be supported, and without your support they Could not be there, they have sophisticated weapons and we will flush them out, we will not let them stay there. But this is not a friendly act.

C: So, did they talk of coming out and meeting somewhere?

P: No, No, they did not.

C: Was there some other talk of putting pressure on us?

P: No. He only said that they (militants) will be given suitable reception. This term he used. He said they will be flushed out, and everytime Tauqir said that please tell us some detail, detail about how many have gone into your area, what is happening there? Then I will ask the concerned people and then we will get back to you. So whenever he asked these details, he would say, we will talk about this when we meet, then I will give details. This means, they are possibly looking forward to the next round of talks, in which the two sides could meet. This could be the next round of talks between the two PMs which they are expecting it....Sir, very good thing, no Problem...

C: So, many times we had discussed, taken your (PM`s?...) blessings and yesterday also I told him that the door of discussion, dialogue must be kept open & rest, no change in ground situation.

P: So, no one was in a particularly disturbed, frame of mind.

C: Even your seat man?

P: Yes, he was disturbed. Also, Malik Saheb was disturbed, as they had been even earlier. Those two`s views were that the status quo & the present Postion of Gen Hassan (?) no change should be recommended in that. But he was also saying that any escalation after that should be regulated as there may be the danger of war. On this logic, we gave the suggestion that there was no such fear as the scruff (tooti) of their (militants) neck is in our hands, whenever you want, we could regulate it. Ch Zafar Saheb coped very well. He gave a very good presentation of our viewpoint. He said we had briefed the PM earlier & given an assessment. AFter this, we played the tape of Tauqir. Then he said that what we are seeing, that was our assessment, and those very stages of the military situation were being seen, which it would not be a problem for us to handle. Rest, it was for your guidance how to deal with the political & diplomatic aspects. We told him there is no reason of alarm & panic. Then he said that when I came to know seven days back, when Corps Commanders were told. The entire reason of the success of this oepration was this total secrecy. Our experience was that our earlier efforts failed because of lack of secrecy. So the top priority is to accord Confidentiality, to ensure our success. We should respect this and the advantage we have from this would give us a handle.

C: Rest (baki), is Mian Saheb Ok?

P: Ok. He was confident just like that but for the other two. Shamshad as usual was supporting. Today, for the last two hours the BBC has been Continuously reporting on the air strikes by India. Keep using this -- let them keep dropping bombs. As far as internationalisation is concerned, this is the fastest this has happened. You may have seen in the press about UN Secretary General Kofi Annan`s appeal that both countries should sit & talk.

Who authorizes head hunting in Paki Army???


The second coming of barbarians
Author: A K Ray
Publication: The Pioneer
Date: June 24, 1999

In one of the most brutal acts, the Pakistan Army tortured six Indian
soldiers, including a young Lieutenant, gouged their eyeballs, burnt
them with cigarette butts and chopped off noses, ears and genitals.``
Thus ran the news report on June 11, aptly head-lined, `Barbarians`.
That was the state of Lieutenant Saurav Kalia and five of his men from
4 Jats who had gone on a patrol on May 14 in the Kaksar area.

The same morning appears a piece by a renowned columnist in which he
says, ``Now that the unspeakable dishonesty of the Pakistani
establishment (as opposed to the Pakistani people, let us always
remember) is manifest in Kargil...`` That instantly brought back to
mind the days in Berlin (1955-57) where I read and heard about the
controversy over who were responsible for the horrors of the Holocaust
and other Nazi atrocities during the second World War. To the
question, ``Who did it?`` the infuriating reply from large numbers of
Germans was, ``We didn`t do it; the SS did it.`` Then one day, Gerhard
Reitlinger`s ``SS, the Alibi of a Nation`` tore off the mask of
hypocrisy. Who were the SS, he asked. Were they not fathers,
husbands, brothers and sons of those who pleaded innocence? When Jews
loaded in cattle-wagons were being shipped to Belsen and Auschw4tz
over German railroads, did not the station masters know what was
afoot? And so on.

First, there was the deliberate murder of Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja,
and now comes the murder of Lieutenant Saurav Kalia and his five men
and the barbaric mutilation of their bodies after evident torture.
Who did these things? Are they not fathers and husbands, and brothers
and sons of the people of Pakistan? These foul deeds cannot be
watered down by ascribing them to the Pakistani ``establishment`` as
opposed to the Pakistani ``people``. These barbaric acts constitute the
collective guilt of the entire Pakistani nation, which every
Pakistani-including the Najam Sethis-must share and pay for. There is
absolutely no ground, no justification, for a schizophrenic
distinction between those who wield power in Pakistan and the rest.

It is not enough to be shocked and out-raged by instances of Pakistani
barbarism, now exposed to the horror of the civilised world. This
barbarism exists and thrives next door. Therefore, one must go beyond
the act to the mind that produced the act.

To he able to do that, it is imperative to shed the suicidal delusion
that Pakistan to-day consists really of the nice friends and
neighbours one had in pre-1946 Lahore. The fact is that it does not.

The reality is that the Pakistanis today are a different breed. Ayub
Khan`s civilised gesture to Field Marshall KM Cariappa in 1965
be-longed to a different age altogether and an entirely different set
of values. Yet, the disease had perhaps begun to spread even
earlier. Conversation with the PoWs of the 1965 war revealed that the
officers and men of the Pakistani armed forces received intensive
indoctrination from mullahs about the superiority and invincibility of
Islam, and the religious merit to be gained by killing kafirs. Tank
crews were taught that if kafirs make things difficult, just recite
such and such ayat, and see them running away from the battlefield!

Perhaps we did not realise then what this revelation meant. It is
doubtful if we do even now. It actually signified the rapid growth of
the influence of the mullah and the increasing reach and clout of the
Jamaat-e-Islami. The Jamaat does not believe in representative
government, and cares not it is not represented in the legislature.

Its sole purpose is to ``Islamise`` the minds of the people, and to get
such ``Islamised`` people into crucial positions in the Government, the
armed forces and civil professions. Its targets are the lower level
Government employees, the rural population, and their children.
Together with a number of similar organisations, they teach that
Islam-the Sunni variety-is predestined to rule over the whole world,
and that it is the duty of every Muslim to contribute to that end;
that the earth be-longs to Allah and therefore only Muslim`s have the
right to live on it and so on.

For the ideologues of these organisations, kafirs are sub-human-the
Untermenschen of the Nazis-not human at all. So what one does with
them and to them does not matter. Throughout their teaching runs the
theme, ``Hate India, hate the Hindus``.

Professor Tahir Mahmood condemns the atrocities committed on our
soldiers by the Pakistani Army as contrary to Islamic law. The
Islamist mullahs of Pakistan may well tell him that on the analogy of
what was done to the Banu Quraiza tribe in early seventh century, what
was done to our fighting men could not fall in the category of the
forbidden in the rive-degree Islamic scale of ethicality. Although it
may not belong to the category of the mandatory it could fall into any
of the other three categories.

The sadistic orgy indulged in by the Pakistani Army is not an isolated
instance of aberration by a few. It is an expression of-the deepest
feelings in the mind brought to the fore by battle conditions. What
was barely under the surface merely floated up with all its ugliness.

It is, therefore, time to square up to the fact that the present
generation of Pakistanis, nurtured and guided by rabidly Islamic
mullahs, share nothing with us-neither the past, nor the present, nor
the future. No amount of pre-emptive capitulation via the so-called
``Gujral Doctrine`` is going to alter their mind-set even a wee bit. It
is, therefore, vitally necessary to abjure the shibboleth of bygone
days that a strong, united Pakistan is good for us.

It is a historical inevitability that Pakistan will go into the
Taliban mode. We must be indubitably forewarned in this regard, and
forearm ourselves accordingly. Mercifully, the kebabs of Lahore do
not attract the vegetarians in the BJP, nor do they tempt the BJP`s
allies as they do the non-vegetarians and pseudo-vegetarians and the
motley crowd of fools and exhibitionists on the side opposed to
them-witness one of them embracing Riaz Khokar on the occasion of a
book release.

Sober reflection, untainted by the starry-eyed naivete of a
media-hyped garrulous few in this city and their gimmicks like the
candle-light vigil at Wagah, will show that the conflict between us
and Pakistan now is not political or territorial but essential
civilisational-one between the Indic and the radical Islamist. The
contradiction is total, and, in Mao`s terminology, ``mutually
annihilatory``. This truth has to be relentlessly drummed into every
Indian mind. We must realise that we are fighting in the preliminary
round of the great coming battle between radical Islam and human
civilisation. None of us can escape the blood, sweat and tears that
this struggle involves.

The age of the barbarians is again upon us. We must stand up, fight
and defeat it decisively. Let the nit-picking brigade of nitwits
scowl and frown, rave and rant. Ignore them.

I found this mullah ISI General`s (president PSGPC) case very interesting.

The Unreported Terrorism Case against Pakistan`s Media King

Special SAT Report

LAHORE: A former Chief of ISI has demanded death penalty under anti-terrorism laws for Pakistan’s virtual media “Ted Turner”, and three other senior journalists, in an Anti-Terrorism Court in Lahore, and the charge against them is carrying out “terrorist acts with their pen”, according to court documents.

In this historic but bizarre case of its kind, the ex-ISI Chief, a Lieutenant General of the Pakistan Army, has submitted a signed petition which in itself is a document revealing some of the most well guarded national secrets, which should never have been revealed, and could get the General hanged for committing sedition if taken up by a fair and judicious court. See other Story.

The most intriguing part of this story is that this Anti Terrorism Court of General Pervez Musharraf not only started hearing the case, it even completed testimony of five prosecution witnesses without even sending a notice to the defendants. Later when the Judge decided that he had jurisdiction to hear the case, he summoned the defendants, who raised immediate objections. He then started hearing their arguments. The latest hearing of the case was held on December 19, with earlier hearings held on Dec 3 and 14, 2002.

The complainant in this case is Lt. General (Retired) Javed Nasir, who headed the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) from March 1992 until May 1993 and the case has been filed against owner of the Jang/News Group of Newspapers and GEO TV, Mir Shakil ur Rehman, Mr. Salim Bokhari Editor of ‘The News’ Lahore, Mr. Usman Yousaf Chairman Editorial Committee ‘Jang’ Lahore and Mr. M.A.K. Lodhi Editor Investigations of ‘The News’ Lahore, who is also a senior employee of the official news agency Associated Press of Pakistan (APP).


The case has been filed under Section 6 (a)(b)(c), 8 & 11 of the Anti Terrorist Act, 1997. Maximum punishment for most of the crimes under this Act is death and Gen. Javed Nasir has demanded in his written petition that the “severest possible punishment” be given to “these terrorists (who) in the garb of journalists have delivered the most lethal blow to the unity and survival of the country.”

“By attacking his reputation the Army and the ISI have been jointly targeted. Left as the last stable institution, if destabilized can lead to an extreme chaos and confusion and eventually to a civil war,” he notes in his petition. Click here to View Petition Page1 | Page2 | Page3 | Page4 | Page5 |Page6 | Page7 | Page8 | Page9 | Page10

The basis for General Nasir’s complaint is a report published by ‘The News’ on August 24, 2002 which alleged that the General, as Chairman of the Evacuee Trust Property Board, embezzled Rs. 3 billion and had fled the country. The report filed by Editor Investigations, M.A.K. Lodhi, claimed the writer had documents to prove its contents. Click to see Original Story (Warning: Large file)

“The complainant learnt about it (the report) through a telephone call which was followed by thousands of telephone calls from all over Pakistan and the world including England and USA,” General Nasir said in his petition.

The General, who is an active member of the Tableeghi Jamaat, an organization of Islamic preachers, said the news item had “terrorized the entire Jamaat, the membership of which runs into millions, and the masses would have led to sectarian strife had it not been for the complainant’s interview on the TV the same night.”

“The entire report manifests a highly arrogant attitude of a few terrorists garbed as journalists indulging in yellow journalism…they are an incurable cancer of the society which must be removed to save the rest of the nation through major surgical operation in the form of the severest possible punishment,” he demanded.

Mir Shakil ur Rehman appeared before the Anti-Terrorism Court-III Judge Manzoor Hussain in Lahore on Dec 19. Editor Salim Bokhari appeared before him in an earlier hearing.

“The entire journalistic community in Pakistan is terrorized, so much so that the newspapers of Mir Shakil ur Rehman himself, the largest circulated Urdu and English language newspapers and GEO TV, a recently launched satellite channel, have not reported anything about this huge case as yet,” journalists in Lahore told the South Asia Tribune.

The original report against the General, carried by ‘The News’ was denied the same day but the National Accountability Bureau (NAB) of General Musharraf confirmed in a letter to the Editor of ‘The News’ on Nov 15, 2002 that “various complaints against Lt. Gen ® Javed Nasir, Ex-Chairman ETPB, are under consideration in NAB.” Click Here for NAB Letter

This confirmed that not everything reported by the newspaper was wrong but what has shocked the journalists is the manner in which the complaint of the ex-ISI chief was filed and accepted by an Anti-Terrorism Court which started one-sided hearings. Journalists argued that it could at best be a case of defamation and be tried under ordinary law in a civil court.

The ATC, instead of throwing out the case, started hearing arguments and decided that it was within its jurisdiction to hear a libel case, thus setting a new legal precedent and turning the so-called Press freedom pronounced so often by General Musharraf, on its head.

In a short judgment given on Dec 3, 2002, the ATC Judge announced that it was within his jurisdiction to hear such a case. “After considering the material placed on record as aforementioned and reading the above provisions of law, I summon all the four persons arrayed as respondents in the complaint for 14.12.2002. A copy of the complaint, as also that of the evidence referred to above, shall be sent to all of them,” Judge Manzoor Hussain said. Click to View Judgment

The anti-terrorism law was passed in August 1997 by the Nawaz Sharif Government. It gave police wide-ranging powers to arrest suspects and established special anti-terrorism courts. Amnesty International at the time pointed out the manifold ways in which the law violated human rights particularly the right to a fair trial. In ... the Supreme Court of Pakistan declared that the Anti-terrorism law as a whole was not unconstitutional but that 12 key sections of the law were unconstitutional and needed to be amended. Several months later this was done by an Amendment Act.

Dozens of people were tried and convicted by these special courts which still fail to provide a fair trial. Most of the death sentences in Pakistan are imposed by anti- terrorist courts. In November 1998, summary military courts were set up to try, within three days, civilians suspected of specified serious offences. Several people were tried and convicted by these special courts; several were sentenced to death and two men were executed before the Supreme Court of Pakistan declared these courts unconstitutional and ordered them disbanded.

General Musharraf enacted the new anti-terrorist law, which replaced the old one of 1997. It came into force on 31 January 2002. The new ordinance provided for new courts which included one senior military officer nominated by the government besides two civilian judicial officers constituting a three-member bench headed by a civilian judge. The courts were to sit in cantonments or jail premises to ensure the security of accused, witnesses and the judiciary. A senior officer said, ``these are not military courts in the true sense, but these courts will comprise civil judges and military officers to speedily dispose of cases of all those involved in terrorism``.

Amnesty International condemning the law said it gave the police a new licence to violate human rights. It authorizes the police and army to fire on anyone ``committing, or believed to be about to commit, a `terrorist` offence``. It also provides them with powers to arrest suspects and to search premises without a warrant. Placing the interpretation on what is justifiable use of lethal force entirely in the hands of law enforcement personnel is, in the Pakistan context, an incitement to the security forces to commit unlawful killings.

Trial by special tribunals including military staff contravenes Principle 5 of the United Nations Basic Principles on the Independence of the Judiciary, endorsed by the General Assembly in 1985. It states: ``Everyone has the right to be tried by ordinary courts or tribunals using established legal procedures. Tribunals that do not use the duly established procedures of the legal process shall not be created to displace the jurisdiction belonging to the ordinary courts of judicial tribunals.``

harimau. . .
what did you not understand about the peanut gallery being closed today? honestly. . .simple english just isn`t accessible by chowkwallahs these days. what to do??? read my words: `leave her alone!` she hasn`t even responded here, and you found reason to ridicule her prior to my post. and now i`m losing my simple english, but that doesn`t wear very well on you.

and i`d like to have dual citizenship if i could, but i don`t need to open the pakistani government website for citizenship rules to know what the response to that is going to be. :) but thank you for the information all the same!

regards.

``India can never become a developed and civilized nation as long as corruption is so widespread. Today, it is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. ``

Your observation and conclusions are bang on the target.

Ref nooralain #137

[zia,
finally, i`ve come to this article, a little late, but what a lovely article, and i have dreams as well. . .i have delhi dreams, and pathankot dreams,and varanasi dreams and mumbai dreams (especially sitting by the sea with farzana, and listen harimau, the peanut gallery is closed today!)]

I just checked Indian Citizenship Rules and found that:

Citizenship of India by registration can be acquired by persons of Indian origin, who or either of whose parents was born in undivided India and who are ordinarily resident in India for five years.

So I guess you and Zia can indeed become citizens of India if you so choose.

The Pak government website for information on citizenship rules was not accessible so your
Mumbai Dreams partner will have to access the site herself later. I also attempted to access AirGorilla.com (honest, I am not making this up) because they claimed they have flights even to Afghanistan but unfortunately they did not recognize Kabul as a city with airport facilities.

Regards.

zia,
finally, i`ve come to this article, a little late, but what a lovely article, and i have dreams as well. . .i have delhi dreams, and pathankot dreams,and varanasi dreams and mumbai dreams (especially sitting by the sea with farzana, and listen harimau, the peanut gallery is closed today!)
and my favorite food to eat these days is made with care by a fellow punjabi from amritsar, who tells his helper when my meal is ready that it is for the punjabi kuRi, and so i have amritsar dreams as well. he makes an excellent saag channa. . .my mouth waters as i write.

our parents (those of us who have parents born prior to the year 1947, mine were born in the thirties) were born in india. i am a pakistani by birth, but i have no reason to erase my parents` india, or my grandparents` india from my heritage. unfortunately too many pakistanis do. as do indians with pakistan. and so i agree with you, the bellicosity must end. thank you for this, again.

regards,
n~

Jay #

``If I am confindent about the furure of india, it is simply because of this fundamnetal shift in the vlaues. There was a time, I do long for it, when helping the family was supreme, now that has been branded as a crime, nepotism, and that is pathetic. ``

Though the situation had not improved so much, your observation is generally true. Indian corporate system, both public and private, has changed considerably for the better. I guess the last barriers to be completely broken down are Caste and Religion (though surprisingly I find less of Religious barriers than that of Caste).

As usual, the first waves of change are seen in the Private sector companies. Even in some of the ``Old world`` companies like Birlas and others. I think the credit goes both to the unlikely duo of PV-Manhoman singh who set India (or were forced to) on a new liberalized economic path as well as the Indian industrialists who grasped and adjusted to the realities of the new paradigm very quickly.

I still remember the day when Kumaramangalam Birla came to IITs and IIMs promising a new era of Meritocracy. If Birlas can change, then anyone can change


``One is the Tahiwan model where it is a production base used by various essentially western and japanese manufacturers. This is symbolised the absence of any Taiwanese Brand name produts from Taiwan.
Another mpdel is from Korea. Hyundai, Samsung ets are today global brands with production at times from Taiwan. ``

I cannot agree with you more.


Rgds,
avkrishna

NHK:

I second the statement that your patience is exemplary in dealing with some of the Indians here. I would like you to keep in mind that Indians have not yet reached the stage of self confidence and empowerment where they can be gracious and (in your words) magnanimous.

harimou:
``Yet the Ambanis, the Singhanias, the Modis, the Birlas haven`t come up with a soup-to-nuts manufacturing plant for TVs, camcorders, cellphones, etc., in India. They didn`t lack for government support.``
That`s because of the wrong kind of support given by the govt. The govt. protected them from foreign competition but did not let them import foreign machinery without exhorbitant duties to be able to do so on a competitive basis. I think they were also restricted from entry into many sectors reserved for small or medium firms. However, where the govt.`s protection policies worked in India was the pharmeucitical sector. There, while the local companies were protected from foreign multinationals, they were allowed to compete against each other to become efficient and use the indigenous scientific expertise for reverse engineering. They may have also benefitted from subsidised heavy chemicals produced in the public sector.
Now that controls have been lifted, Tatas have been able to produce their Indica from design to finish and, as you are perhaps aware, the car is to be sold in Europe by the presitgious Land Rover. And even in TVs, I have recently read that India is now the most competitive place for the manufacture of small sized TVs.

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re:#122 by jay
You may be right about your assertions regarding change in people`s attitudes. But i have had first hand experience of corruption in India. I was asked for ``bribe`` by no less a person than the Asst Registrar of a medical college in , hear this, Delhi (the capital of India) for sending me some documents. I needed these documents badly for my state licensure. My father, to this day, could not get the registration number of his car changed for the same reason. Some one told him that his job could never be done without paying off. Delhi is truly the corruption capital of India. I will be very surprised if you tell me that suddenly all this corruption has disappeared. The story of corrupton is same everywhere: North, South, East or West. In this matter, Indians outshine each other.
India can never become a developed and civilized nation as long as corruption is so widespread. Today, it is one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
Now, the question is: what makes people so corrupt in India? I believe the answer is : lack of dignity, self-respect and pride in their work. That Asst Registrar would not have demanded money from me if he took pride in his work and had any iota of self-respect. He obviously lacked both.
My greatest criticism of Nehru would be this: by stifling free enterprise, he encouraged corruption. Corruption later on became widespread and got institutionalized.
But, as Americans would say: hindsight is always 20/20. Up until 1960s, Soviet model was touted as a successful economic model. Nehru was obviously impressed with the Soviet model. Today, we know how wrong he was! Still, his democratic and secular credentials can never be questioned. Minorities will probably remember his period of premiership as a Golden Era of communal peace.
Sridhar

Nazarhayatkhan

Your are a very patient man. The way you respond to provocative statements is exemplary.

Ref wholly-precious-you #118

[gujjubania #97

...sheesh...get a grip, kid...pakis have better things to do then come on some random website and get their highs off of any ``criticism of india``...what is it they feed you down in gujarat?... ]

Well, how do you then explain the popularity of the Fearless Investigative Journalist from Bombay? (Grin)

As to what they feed him in Gujarat, in between meals it would be Farsan! (Bigger grin)

Ref nazarhayatkhan #117

[(India`s nukes are indigenous , unlike Pakistan whose nukes and missiles are imported from China and N.Korea)

Knowing something about the issue, let me tell you that it is purely Pakistani technology - devious, stolen - OK. China did not have the centrefuge technology. Similarly, this Korean stuff that keeps coming in the international media is wrong to the best of my knowledge.]

Actually, the first Chinese test of 1964 tested an enriched uranuim weapon and so did several other tests. While in the early days China might have used other processes, the only efficient process is the centrifuge technology to produce large enough quantities for the estimated 450 bombs the Chinese have. Also, China came under US sanctions for selling ring magnets to Pakistan for use in the centrifuges.

China also sold India some quantity of heavy water when India`s heavy water plant at Tuticorin was experiencing production problems and no other country would sell heavy water to India except under IAEC safeguards.

Most of this kind of information is public knowledge and easily available when you search websites devoted to nuclear arms control and non-proliferation.

Last week`s Newsweek reported that the building in Pyongyand (North Korea) where they display the various gifts received by the ruling Kim family has a variety of gifts from visiting dignitaries from Pakistan and Iran in the last two years. Disinformation campaign? Maybe.

Ref dost-mittar #127

[``This is symbolised the absence of any Taiwanese Brand name produts from Taiwan. ``
Never heard of Acer, perhaps the largest computer maker in the world? But you are right in general. The Taiwanese economy is based on small scale units who have prospered by copying imported technology.]

There are a whole host of others who produce critical parts and whose brands are not visible to the end user but are well-known to the manufacturer/assembler. TSCM (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing) is one of them. Several US chip design companies in fact use TSCM and another company in Taiwan to fabricate their chips.

[The Korean model, on the other hand, is based on a few chabels, large conglomerates, in cahoots with the dictators who supported them to become the clones of Sonys and Toyotas.]

Yet the Ambanis, the Singhanias, the Modis, the Birlas haven`t come up with a soup-to-nuts manufacturing plant for TVs, camcorders, cellphones, etc., in India. They didn`t lack for government support.

Jay#122
`` If I am confindent about the furure of india, it is simply because of this fundamnetal shift in the vlaues. There was a time, I do long for it, when helping the family was supreme, now that has been branded as a crime, nepotism, and that is pathetic. ``
I know this is true of a few large software firms (and has perhaps been generally true of Tatas all along!). But I wonder if the change in this attitude is widespread.

``This is symbolised the absence of any Taiwanese Brand name produts from Taiwan. ``
Never heard of Acer, perhaps the largest computer maker in the world? But you are right in general. The Taiwanese economy is based on small scale units who have prospered by copying imported technology. The Korean model, on the other hand, is based on a few chabels, large conglomerates, in cahoots with the dictators who supported them to become the clones of Sonys and Toyotas.

Jay # 121

(India is central to pakistani politics and society. But for india pakistan and kashmir is only marginal)

To understand the Pakistani society, one has to visualize its various pressure groups - the man on the street, mainstream political parties, religious parties and the establishment (means Army + ISI)

Your statement is right in its generality but the intensity of hostlity towards India + the use of war as an instrument to get Kashmir has chnaged in the last about two decades in Pakistan.

The mainstream political parties have stopped talking about War with India; and they all talk of resolution of issues with India. Only today I read Benazir`s statement ``open and safe borders with India without compromising on UN resolutions``

The venom of religious parties has been deflected towards America - and against the cultural onslought of the West. Fazlur Rehman visit to India must have given that impression too.

The man on the street, who goes by the folk wisdom and gut feeling, was much ahead of the politicians - for his desire for peace + a search for prosperity.

Right now, I think it is only the establishment which has the hardest stand against India and an impatience for Kashmir. The response to the Indian peace offers was never debated in the parliament - it took a painful one week with ifs & buts - and the foreign offices of both countries suffer from a traditional departmental combative urge.

In general, after the successive military take overs, the thinking minds are undergoing a serious introspection of this all - more so the political parties because they have borne the major brunt. There are inner conflicts and contradictions that need to be resolved - Religion & its place, Secularism, TNT, Democracy - Chowk gives every other day an article on these issues as these confusions tend to surface spontaneouly - a crisis of identity and direction if you will -

For India also, Pakistan does matter, though not to that degree. A friendly and a prosperous Pakistan would be a good influence multipliar for India - for its place in the region and in the world - not to speak of the the physical access that it would give to India towards the West - Afghanistan, Central Asia, Iran, Middle East.

(This is very different from entreprnaurial success, only a few are gifted with it. These have come up through the system as you might call it, a system that recognises merrit. Pakistan is very far away from it)

After coming up of some good educational institutions, lately the private companies have gone merit orientated. In the education field, there is a new scheme whereby about 300 qualified teachers will be imported yearly from abroad with commensurate salaries.

But merit recognition is still a problem.

#122 by jay on November 1, 2003 10:35pm PT
{Now let me tell you a story, a real life one. Two years ago I tried to get a job for a fresh engineering graduate ..}

Jay, that’s an excellent story. As more and more Indian companies become globally competitive, they will have to harness all the talent available in India, irrespective of ethnicity/religion/caste, to stay alive on the competitive treadmill.

Another benefit over time will be incentive for Indian states to provide proper protection for all citizens. No matter what our young tiger (Gujjubania) says, Gujrat must have lost some points in the eyes of Indian/global investment scouts when compared against stable southern states.

#123 by jay on November 1, 2003 10:35pm PT
{Korea and Taiwan}

Jay, the kid (Gujjubania) is not that off the mark as your post indicates. Korean, or Japanese brand name successes were based upon initial foundations of freewheeling manufacturing (or, whatever makes money as you put it) of small toys, umbrellas, cameras or whatever. For East Asians that brought in money, manufacturing confidence, contacts with international manufacturing standards and most important, got the competitive juices flowing in their businessmen. The benefits of manufacturing reach the lowest of the low (and that has benefits of its own). While knowledge based software or other engineering design work is very prestigious, the benefits are mainly to the middle class and gifted people. There is nothing wrong with that except that it will take long time before lower rungs of our society see much benefits from it.

While I give Nehru full credit for all the great institutes, you guys sound like IITs and freer economic system at the time were mutually exclusive. Nehru was a brilliant man and his love for education and science was admirable. He was also a socialist who did not fully trust the western economic model. That blind spot, my friend, kept us from realizing our full potential sooner.

Another point, “Nehru’s IITs” by themselves cannot be credited for all of our recent successes, although they were major enablers. Quite a few planets aligned for us and we were lucky to be at the right place at the right time. If there would not have been any major need for knowledge workers/software engineers (starting in late eighties) and economic reforms in India 1991 had not taken place, we would still be exporting our smart graduates to west for opportunities while Chinese would have kept providing manufacturing employment opportunities to their poor and building skyscrapers in their major cities.

Nazar 108,

India is central to pakistani politics and society. But for india pakistan and kashmir is only marginal. After 1971 most of the people at least in the south had forgotten about pakistan till the kargill invasion, when even in towns in Kerala had military men given the final honours.
Kashmir issue had never been a very important issue, and it will never be, for decades there had been naga land troubles, the nuxalites, the hindu ,uslim stuff in parts of gujarat and maharashtra, the karnatake tamilnadu killings o..the list goes on. In a country of more than a billion we have lived with the fault lines for a long time.

Even with out the pak issue india would have still had a military of more or less same proportions. Right now there is a peak in spending, this is for new technilogy of aerial refueling, AWACS etc but are on a sustainable basis.

What has changed in my generation is a rapid shift in social values, where a a generation of people have come to the top simply because of education. Having graduated in engineering more than 30 years ago, my class mates are now in senior positions, a few are chief engineers in govt departments like electricity boards, irrigation etc and I was amazed to find that none of them had any wealth significantly more than what one could assume. This was in sharp contrast to what I saw in childhood when a public works junior engineer lived like a king.

Nazar 108,

Now let me tell you a story, a real life one. Two years ago I tried to get a job for a fresh engineering graduate and I thought it may not be all that difficult. I know very senior people in some large private companies, which in my day would have been very easy because the recruitment process were not very formalised.
I was in for a rude shock, none of them would even entertain the idea of bringing some one in. They said it is a question of credibility, and pointed out that their own children are at smaller companies. They have achived those positions through hard work, well no doubt about it, they work even on sundays, and they simply cannot tarnish those records.

I felt they were a bit harsh, the zealousness of a new converts, even in the west the recruitments are not that objective. If I am confindent about the furure of india, it is simply because of this fundamnetal shift in the vlaues. There was a time, I do long for it, when helping the family was supreme, now that has been branded as a crime, nepotism, and that is pathetic.

This I believe is the fundam,ental problem between india and pakistan. When romairs criticises the feudals, ylh attacks the faujis the underlying reality is that there are no role models in pakistan where a child from a poor background can rise to the top simply because of studies and hardwork, with out any familial, caste and community connections.

This is very different from entreprnaurial success, only a few are gifted with it. These have come up through the system as you might call it, a system that recognises merrit. Pakistan is very far away from it.

At the highest level look at the pak proposal to india. Pakistan will provide medical assistance to the rape victimes of kashmir. This paased the highest civil service in pakistan, it passed the elitest military, it passed the foreign relations scholars. This is the ultimate proof of pakistans state, as the saying goes`` $$it rises to the top in pakistan, as it happens in a cess pool``.

gujju 115,

There are two fundamentally different economic models emerging in asia. One is the Tahiwan model where it is a production base used by various essentially western and japanese manufacturers. This is symbolised the absence of any Taiwanese Brand name produts from Taiwan.
Another mpdel is from Korea. Hyundai, Samsung ets are today global brands with production at times from Taiwan.

India is following the Korean model, a few brands have emerged Asian paints, Titan watches apart from the IT sector. The fundamantal reason for this can be found in the Nehruein ideals of self reliance, one has to have everything with a strong emphesis on education and indian identity.

China is following the Taiwan model, what ever that brings in money is great. So the comparison with chinese cultare influence countries with india is fundamentally flawed because it does not take into account the socuial values.

Nehrus contribution to india is that of a vision when he said while inaugerating the Sindhri fertilizer plant ( pl check this up harimau.)...`` these are the temples of modern india``.

It took a while for this vision to become reality when the Japanes prime minister skipped visit to agra and preferred visit to Infosys campus in Bangalore. Nehru should have been happy.

gujjubania #97


“I don`t want to be too critical since this is a Paki site and any criticism of India or Indians past or present only serves to make their day better ”


...sheesh...get a grip, kid...pakis have better things to do then come on some random website and get their highs off of any ``criticism of india``...what is it they feed you down in gujarat?...

An excellent Diwali & Ramzan gift here on CHOWK from Zia Ahmed.

These sentiments are not uncommon in (at least) over 10 Million families in Pakistan

who have ties to kin in India.

Indians and Pakistanis have to get out of this Kashmir mess to move on.

This writing somewhat reminded me of Kamila Shamsie`s book ``Salt and Saffron``.

Ras

Gujju

We also criticize Nehru for not having gone the freer capitalist route. I too would like to see George F. become the next Prime Minister of India (although he won`t both because his political base is limited, and because India is yet not so mature as to accept a non-Gandhi Christian Prime Minister).

Still, as someone said, Nehru`s role in India was no less critical than George Washington`s role was in the US. One does`t have to agree with all this policies to appreciate that fact.

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Gajjubania # 112

(As far as psychological parity is concerned - I would lay more stress on the economics rather than on nukes or defence. Over the last decade India has totally outperformed Pakistan in almost all economic parameters. Infact India`s per capita is today higher than Pakistan`s per capita by a 1000$. Enough said)

There is no arguement on the Indian progress in the economic field. That is where Pakistan should have concentrated in the last few decades instead of a foolish compitition with a country 7 times its size - and an obsession with Kashmir -

If for nothing else, than for the reasons of centuries old shared history.

But I think the biggest achievement of India during the last 56 years has been its evolution of a stable political system. It is this stable political system that has now begun to bear its fruit.

On the nuclear side, it was best to continue with that ``bomb in the basement`` policy - at best. And in the nuclear game, it is the capability that causes parity - not the numbers.

At times, the people do need a psychological uplifting - Post 71. But this issue can be debated. Pakistan should have honestly carried out an introspection after 1971 - found out its root causes - and then chartered its new course of action.

Considering it a military defeat and lumping all blame on India was wrong. It was basically a political failure & not a military defeat. India went along with the elected majority party along with the rest of world. If it took advantage of the situation, it was in its national interest. If Pakistan failed to exploit the 1962 India-China war, it was its folly.

(India`s nukes are indigenous , unlike Pakistan whose nukes and missiles are imported from China and N.Korea)

Knowing something about the issue, let me tell you that it is purely Pakistani technology - devious, stolen - OK. China did not have the centrefuge technology. Similarly, this Korean stuff that keeps coming in the international media is wrong to the best of my knowledge.

I only wish we had put in all this effort into education.

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harimau,

``Indian Institute of Science is commonly known in Bangalore as the Tata Institute.``

I can vouch for that! On my first visit to IIsc, I asked the auto driver to take me to `Indian Institute of Science`. He nodded and we drove for about 45 minutes till we reached a hospital of some kind. At the gate I learnt that IIsc was actually at the other end of the city...and nobody called it `Indian Institute of Science`...but Tata Institute!

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Guys,

Everything in India starting with ``Indian Institute of...`` is NOT a legacy of Jawaharlal Nehru.

Indian Institute of Science is commonly known in Bangalore as the Tata Institute. That is because IISc was founded in 1909 by J. N. Tata. The land itself was donated by the Maharaja of Mysore.

All you need to do is a simple Google search and you come up with IISc`s home page where you can get a brief history at the following URL.

http://www.iisc.ernet.in/about/

By the way, the alumni refer to their alma mater as Insitute of Science or, among themselves, as The Insitute.

Yours in the interest of verity,

Harimau
Chowk`s Resident Historian

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``#95 by stuka on October 31, 2003 11:08am PT

No. We are not. Hhence revenge should be taken against those instigating policy rather then innocent bystander regardless of religion. ``


Stuka,


In a long run yours shall be done yaar, not mine. Agreed. AMEN.

Their PBUH (and NOT what I called earlier) worked and was employeed by a woman. He had no panga. He married her. A widow. She actually owned a businees. A nono for hindoos widows then. Look at Mecca and Madina today.... GOSH. This is progress. Urs... style. Appeasing, buying a whole nation as a slave..

Not some or many, but ALL the muslims I work with, abhore what you abhore also. They know where I come from. They know what I stand for. They may abhore me too, but do not stiffle when I open up.

They however do stiffle by Usr.. as slaves. He decides. That is Jay`s point.

Some who want to reform within, slowly, socialist style lick and.....

So Stuka, in between, let us hate. Let Urs decide who is muslim and who is not. And if it takes few more Karglis (for you) so be it.

For me it is no more worth. I have no more time yaar.

Modi is not the answer. Nor is Gujjubhai. Never was/is Yogiraj. But they are a necessity. To show some....


Yogiraj Patil

Zia Ahmed,

You are perfectly welcome to visit Jaipur and have your Dreams fulfilled.

There is nothing that will stop it.

Yogiraj Patil

Jay # 105

Pakistanis went for the Nuclear option since an arms race with India in conventional arms was never possible.

But more than that, after the 71 debacle, it somehow lifted the spirits - bringing a psychlogical parity.

In my opinion, these may have already prevented an open war with India since 1971.

Now the bad points:

We expected that, after the nuclear capability, the expenditure on the conventional arms would be drastically reduced. But it did not happen. Our Army began to say that we needed a Nuclear as well as a conventional force (or deterrance)

Nuclear weapons is a delicate capability. To get the best out of this capability, it needs to be accompanied by a stable democratic political order - sophisticated diplomacy - a mature balanced populace - and above all, an acceptable just and a fair economic system.

Any dis-connect in the above would make the world community edgy - so we are already seeing the shades of our Nuclear capability tuning out to be a liability - unless the other denominators are not equally balanced.

Besides many other justifiable reasons, this reason alone should instigate Pakistan to have a normal working relations with India - while not compromising on its stated positions on disputes with India - and get the Indo-pak conflict at a lower temperature.

In my opinion, there was no need for India to carry out those nuclear explosions post 1971. India could always theoretically afford 7 times the conventional weapons that Pakistan had.

Possession of nuclear weapons with India not only went against the Indian ethos but it also got Pakistan into the same dangerous game - and now India has more or less lost its option of a conventional war with Pakistan.

dost

//...Akbar seems to have become a big bhagat of Vajpayee. ..//

With good reason. I think Vajpayee has done good job. His focus on infrastructure building was need of the time - a lot more needs to be done in that area.

And the old guy has really gone out on a limb to make peace with pakis. But pakis are a incorrigible lot, especially that moron Mushy.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm

//..the Indian prime minister has shown more flexibility and far more willingness to go the extra mile. And by taking the initiative time and again, he has made the Pakistani leadership seem unreasonable and bellicose...//

Nazar 94,
Happy to find a pakistani who agrees with me on competance of pakistani burocrats. Another aspect that puzzles me is that no one has ever written, in dawn and jung about the importance of osama to pakistan. The day osama is cought or killed, US will turn against pakistan. Nuclear proliferation will become the issue. The bugging of saudi prince and the leaked report about pak-saudi nuclear deal all point to troubled times for pakistan.

It appears that all in pakistan seem to believe in their own verbiage about pak nuclear power. My guess is that pak will not have the bomb in less than ten years.

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gujjubania # 97,

Its easy to criticise nehru in retrospect. But in his age and his times, with the vast majority of population illiterate and poor, higher education let alone education was most difficult to afford. In US, FDR was the first one to come up with your so-called idealsitic nonsense like social security and minimum wages just ten years before nehru`s era.
Remember that the vast majority of indians today are better of only due to access to world class education at ridiculously low costs. And yes he had the visions for such world class institutes, no one else. The same IITians, RECians, IIMians are sending so much back to india today.
Today in US, for an average joe getting a BS degree is not easy, with tuition so high and no support from governemnet. Imagine nehru`s obscurantist socialist policies providing equal ground for rich and poor alike. Its like abreath of fresh air in an otherwise class riddled and despondent society where the poor and middle class could never afford the only means for better life. You need to come over to the US and struggle on your own to realize what nehru`s policies meant for the indians.
Look up the number of americans in US universities in graduate level studies in engineering and sciences. They are dropping steadily compared to the immigrants, which are rising. And hence their growing dependence on india for a pool of scientific and engineering talent. And it is this vast pool of talent that is one of the prime reasons for economic boom in india.

Adios

gujjubania # 97,

in continuation of my previous post.
I guess i started appreciating nehru more after coming to the US. Afetr all my alma mater is REC Warangal the first REC in India. And yes, its foundation stone too was laid by nehru.

Adios

#97 gujjubania

Ok, you can believe in your fairy tales about private enterprise building universities and research into Engineering. Do you know about the 100`s of millions of dollars the US goverment gives in research funding? Tens of millions in student loans. Why does it do that???

Finally:

[quote]
While it is true that the IITs, IISc etc came up during his time - its not like he was personally responsible for these institutions
[end-quote]

This is a shameful lie. With this you have shown that you are not worth wasting time on.
Nehru is 100% responsible for creating IIT`s, IISc, building up indian science and technology infrastructure.

But, heh, believe whatever you like. No difference between you and the fools who believe that ``islam is the only solution``.

re: Gujjubania`s various posts
I have only this to say to you after reading your following remarks:
``I have spent all my life in the various towns, cities of South India (because of my Dad`s transferable job) - and currently work in Bangalore. My family owns properties and businesses here in the South . And never have I ever been told by the South Indians that I don`t belong there or that they have more of a right over their states than myself.``
I will say: celebrate that diversity. South Indians do not discriminate. At least that is my belief. Apply that principle to your home state of Gujarat, where you are discriminating against a large chunk of population because they belong to a certain religion. I would have no bones to pick with you if you had not said that Modi was doing good for Gujarat. Like the hell he is!
You say you are just 23 years of age. As the Americans say: You are just a kid. You ain`t seen nothing so far.
``Nehru messed up higher education in India by introducing high subsidies and discouraging private investment .``
As i said, you are not well qualified to pass a comment on one of the great political leaders of India. You are naieve and have a lot to learn. I now know what Harimou meant by a Code Coolie. You are one. You think you have arrived just because you have started earning some ``moolahs`` in the IT code coolie business. Life is much more complex than just writing codes.

Nehru was a great democrat. He is to India what George Washington is to USA. He nurtured democracy during the formative stages of India`s existence as a free nation.
And yes, he was largely instrumental in building IITs, IISc (Bangalore) and BARC. Homi Bhabha was personally groomed by Nehru and given a lot of political support, which enabled him to pursue his dreams without any political hindrance.
Most of my uncles do business in Pondicherry. It is a nice place, free of any religious or ethnic tension. I have an aunt and some cousins in Bangalore. One of my cousins works for Wipro. Try and learn to be free from any religious hatred. Your stay in Bangalore should be educational. Learn how Kannadigas have welcomed everyone from all parts of the country without so much as a murmur of protest. This to me is assimilation at its best.
Lastly, Pakistan is not the problem. People like Modi are the real problem.
Sridhar

gujjubania#97
I do agree with you, almost 100 per cent. I do believe Nehru gave India some sterling institutions (not institutes!) which have stood the test of time, the greatest of these being the Indian constitution. Although even there, he set bad precedents by using article 356 to dismiss state governments and to introduce amendment after amedment to facilitate his socialist utopia.

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Akbar seems to have become a big bhagat of Vajpayee.

[article from today`s Dawn]

Vajpayee`s vision of peace


By M.J. Akbar


Prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee has many virtues, but the principal one is conviction. He is not rash: by definition a