Why is the West so angry with Dr. Mahathir?

Stuka #169

Here is Bharat Rakshak’s Kargil memorial. It lists a total of 449 names, so it is not quite complete. What is significant is that 13 of those named were from Gujarat, and a fair number of those were definitely Gujarati Hindus. (I recall at least one Gujarati Muslim name from another, perhaps more complete list, which I am now unable to locate). So Gujarat is under-represented by a factor of about two relative to its population fraction. Incidentally Kerala is under-represented by just about the same factor. Himachal Pradesh, J & K, Punjab, Rajasthan, seem (at first glance) to be significantly over-represented. Ladakhi Buddhists seem massively over-represented relative to their population fraction.

There are so many factors governing army recruitment vs. pursuing other opportunities that I for one would be very circumspect about giving excessive currency to known ethnic stereotypes about cowardice, lack of patriotism and so on. Even if you don`t really mean it, etc.

stuka:
``The idea was not to insult another ethnicity for the heck of it``
Maybe you didn`t realise it but that is exactly what you ended up doing, in my opinion anyway!

Dost Mittar:

It is true that Gujju Bania did not initiate vulgarities against me in person. But he has been doing so for quite some time against fellow Indian citizens. Plus, he has been handing out certificates of patriotism as if it is his daddy`s wedding.

Ii also agree with Sadna. The whole ethnic slur approach was deliberate, to push home the idea that if religion is one parameter, then ethnicity can be another. I have nothing specific against Ggujaratis. Satyavadi misunderstood me. If Gujju Bania was Tamil, I would have thought something up against Tamils. The idea was not to insult another ethnicity for the heck of it but to demonstrate the stupidity of using one parameter to judge patriotism, and also to show disdain for the idea that an individual with no standing can decide who is patriotic and who is not.

stuka:
I was surprised at your post#167 which I found in bad taste (spending too much time at unplugged, eh?). I agree completely with sadna`s post#178.
It`s one thing to be strongly critical of gujjubania`s venom against muslims, it is quite another to use vulgarities. It is one thing to hurl indecent insults at someone who has done that to you, it is another to initiate this process. Sorry, if I have been out of my place here.

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Urstruly:
``Whether Zafarullah did what he did at the Radcliffe because of his incompetence or because of his religious beliefs just because he thought that QuadiaN would remain relatively safe in India`s hands is open to debate.``
Looks like you missed my earlier response. If Qadianis wanted their holy place to remain in India, why did they vote for Pakistan? As I said earlier, Hindus of Qadian treated Ahmedias as Muslims and so did Qadianis themselves. They were killing each other and there was no way that they would have trusted a Kafir country more than their new homeland.
In any case, all my readings have suggested that the Radcliffe award was based solely on census records and administrative maps. I have never read about Radcliffe amenable to any pressure from any group. Could you please tell me of a credible source of your report, if you are aware of one?

Sadna:

There is a major difference:

I don`t believe what I am saying about Gujjus. This idiot believes what he says about Indian Muslims.

My entire post was a reaction to his calling me a Paki, simply because I had a different opinion. If he can religion as a barometer of proving patriotism, I can just as easily pick up ethinicity and rub it in his face. The Army was not used as a watermark of contributing to the nation. I know well enough that one can contribute in many ways.

My purpose in highlighting the Army was this: Those who fight in the Army have bullets fired back at them. They face danger and yet, fight. Yet we do not here lectures of patriotism from them, nor inuendo questioning patriotism.

In contrast, we have this idiot who proudly supports the killing of defenceless Muslims, self admittedly did not join the Armed Forces because it does not pay enough, and has the gall to question the patriotism of another Indian. What a scumbag, and a coward to boot.

stuka
There is no essential difference between your generalisations and gujjubania`s.
gujjubania takes hatred for Muslims as the criterion of patriotism, you are taking caste/ethncity/membership of the Indian Army as the criterion of patriotism.

Committed people of all religions and castes have made valuable contributions to the welfare of India in their different ways and people of all professions have made valuable contributions to the welfare of India.

Both your arguments donot hold water even if you view contributions from a purely militaristic/ combativeness POV. For example Indian Muslims have died defending India in wars and a Muslim policeman even died defending Akshardham temple from Pakistani terrorists. Indian Muslims have been in high positions in India`s security establishment.

And you need to know that without being in the Army, Gujaratis have contributed hugely to the key factor in India`s security ie growth of its economy and industrialisation. And for example, without Vikram Sarabhai a Gujarati Hindu, India would not have had a successful space program, whose spin offs to India`s defence I shouldnot have to spell out. His daughter Mallika (like many other Gujarati Hindus) has been consistently speaking out about the Gujarat riots and has been suffering harassment from Hindutva types as a consequence.

These are people who are fighting to do their best to tackle difficult issues in real life, as opposed to passing off their illinformed personal prejudices as gods truth online.

Urstruly:


``One part should be Khalistan because sikhs have suffered enough and it is their right; the other part should be North India excluding Hyderabad Daccan which should be free again;``

If your geographic knowledge is a reflection of your intellect, I am not surprised the Ummah is getting kicked around. I think u should stop worrying about Kashmir and go fight with the Afghans. I heard they no longer recognize the Durand line and claim Peshawer as Pakistan, along with Quetta? With Sindh joining PONAM, chances of West Punjab joing East Punjab seem rather high.

Don`t worry, we will make Sameer JB Chief Minister of United Punjab state. :)

Gujjubania:

``And going by your logic , if joining the Army is the index of patriotism , its interesting that Muslims comprise 13-14% of India`s population , but less than 1% of Indian Army. ``

And what does it say about Gujaratis that they comprise even less then that?

``....we Gujjus serve the country by contributing to India`s economy. No community has contributed as much to India`s finances as Gujju Banias /Marwadis. ``

Making money and hoarding is not the same as contributing to the economy. As I said before, the biggest chors who have looted the country have come out of Gujarat. Harshad Mmehta being one example. Also, it is Gujarati HINDUS who finance traitors like Dawood Ibrahim. That Diamond Merchant guy is a prime example.

So, if serving the country comprised of:

Not serving the Army because it does not pay enough

Making money for self and family while contributing to instability

Stealing money of middle class investors a la Harshad Mehta

Being cowardly to the extent that only defenceless people are attacked


Then yes, Gujaratis are definitely serving the country. Question is, which country??

All the following discussion proves is that India must immediately be divided into four parts before everybody who lives there starts raping and killing each others mothers and sisters. One part should be Khalistan because sikhs have suffered enough and it is their right; the other part should be North India excluding Hyderabad Daccan which should be free again; the third part should be South India with the exclusion of Western Coast line above Bombay and the fourth part should be Kashmir which we will be most obliged to take.

That was the original plan all along for the partition but your greed got in the way. I wish your greed could have overcome your prejudices also; then it wouldn`t have been half that bad. People! don`t you understand why Two Nations Theory makes so much sense?

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Stuka:::

I am not surprised that you are not amused by my post. What you felt after reading my post was the exact same thing I felt after reading your posts.

I just wanted to illustrate the folly of generalizing what Gujjubania says to all Gujarati Hindus, and I think I succeeded..

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I will tell you an anecdote here which happened a few months afer the Gujarat riots...

Three of us were discussing Orissa...And I happened to comment that though that state is very rich in natural resources that has not translated to prosperity or industrial development.

A Delhiite guy, who happens to be a leftist liberal responded by saying, atleas they(Orissans) don`t go about killing 2000 people in 2 months or some such thing...

My response to that was::: Hey how about killing 3000 people in 3 days in the NATIONAL CAPITAL? He couldn`t say much..

BTW..that guy is a Punjabi Jain..So is it something with Punjabis?

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For the record I condemn the Godhra burning and the subsequent killings and hope that the perpetrators are punished, much like I would like to see Bhagat etc behind bars..

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The killers in Delhi might have been UP/Biharis but many of the leaders were clearly Punjabis...

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Gujjus are only traders? One word::: Reliance..

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Please take your moral outrage to my post elsewhere.. Like you said, I am not impressed either..

Satyavadi: At least live up to your assumed nickname. If Ii had seen one word of recrimination for the fellow Gujju I at least would have had some respect for your post. But you show true colors by reacting only to that what affects your community, while completely ignoring all the garbage this idiot has been spewing. I think I am a bigger man then you two, at least Ii am enraged by hatred spewed at fellow Indians even when I am not the target. So take your moral outrage elsewhere, I am not impressed.

Satyavadis: Yeah, how many Punjabis do you see gloating over killing Sikhs? BTW, Punjabi Hindus did not take part in any riots. Study some history before opening your mouth. It was hired goons of UP and Bihar.

``Yeah the top floor of the Punjabis` is khali (empty), so they have no choice but to till land and join the army.. We sympathize with you guys...Business karna tumhare bas ki baat nahi..And yeah, most non Punjabis think of Punjus as hotheaded idiots.. ``

Kya hua? Did not get a chance to kill some Muslims so you are in a bad mood? Have you heard of Oberoi Hotels, Apollo Tyres and the like? Punjabis do very well in business. In fact we build infrastructure and actually make something by adding value unlike traders from Gujarat.

Tthe Army is a profession where all Indians join and do well, except Gujaratis. If your definition of AKAL is killing defenceless people and gloating over it I am glad rest of India has a khaali dimaag. Show me one Punjabi Hindu who sits and gloats over killing Sikhs otherwise give company to your fellow bigot.