Why is the West so angry with Dr. Mahathir?

dost mittar #106 I dont recall any of the killers on the pakistan side actually gloating over his actions in public like the Akali Dal leader you mention in India. That of course doesnt absolve anyone of anything - not the British administration at the time for not managing the transition better, nor the successive pakistani or indian governments since then for never bothering to prosecute the criminals.

This mob mentality you mention indeed rears its ugly head from time to time in the subcontinent. What is heartening is how often it does not happen. For myself, the proudest I felt as a Pakistani was ironically on the day of our supposedly most humiliating defeat in December 1971 (and i have mentioned this before on chowk but is worth repeating i think): the bengali community in islamabad and rawalpindi freely celebrated their independence, and there was no mob violence or anything. Lot of pi!ssed off west pakistani chowkidars and neighbors who were obviously in mourning at the loss of half the country, but no one attacked them. This gives me hope in the desi (pakistani, indian or any other).

sattar,

............ you should not worry about folks like urstruly who believe that , ``Ahmadis are pretending to be Muslims … and that is a sinister plot to damage Islam`` and whose simple solution is that, `` no other religion should be allowed to preach in a Muslim polity … and if a Muslim leaves Islam, he should be killed``...........at least they are odiferously honest about what they believe and can be spotted (or smelled) from a mile off .............. what you really have to worry about are people like romair and tahmed who are in denial and continue to preach that ``there is no compulsion in islam`` while insisting on their warped definitioin of a muslim ............. remember bhutto was not a flaming mullah - he was just catering to the majority which consists of the bearded lunatic fringe and the ``moderates`` like romair and tahmed .............

.......... i really appreciate jay bringng up abdus salaam over and over again because he holds up the mirror that shows us our true image .............boo! .... happy haloween

.... i read my own post and realized that i had come up with yet another truism that should be be recorded for posterity ............ in case some of you missed it, i would immodestly like to repeat it..........``all of us have been exposed to the vurulent jihadi fever .......... some, like mahatir, have an occasional flare-up, while others, like urstruly and the men who live in caves, suffer from it constantly............ kind of like herpes and aids - one is a nusiance, the other is terminal ............``

..........i think that is brilliant!......... happy halloween.........with a flask full of the finest single malt i am off trick or treating while the mullahs are taraweehing ............

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http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sangat/March96.htm

Was Abdus Salam persona non grata in Pakistan? Prof. Pervez Hodobhoy spoke in anguish in 1996 of facts that do give credence to such thoughts:

In 1979, the physics department at Quaid-i-Azam University wanted to confer an honorary Ph.D. to Prof. Salam and wanted him to give a lecture on his Nobel Prize winning theory. But violent ``student`` demonstrations against the proposal convinced the powers that be to not to convey the invitation to Prof. Salam. It never occured to those blocking the invitation that it was Prof. Salam who would have honored the University by accepting an honorary Ph.D. from it!

Prof. Hodobhoy bluntly stated, ``Fearful of being attacked, many admirers of Salam`s achievements have chosen to remain silent. Consequently, unlike India which has science institutions named after men like Saha, Raman, Bose and Bhabha, Pakistan does not have any institution named after it`s one and only great scientist. Nor is his name made known to children through their text-books, or through television and radio, even though the names of far lesser persons are. Had Salam been an Indian, there is little doubt that he would have been in the ranks of his equals.``

Prof. Hodobhoy gave other examples, ``A cover story in the weekly Takbeer accused Salam of selling out Pakistan`s nuclear secrets. This perverted concotion would have been amusing, rather than simply disgusting, had it not been so laced with crude insults and abuse.``

Prof. Hodobhoy also mentioned how Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif Nawaz, at a Government College function, read from a list of college alumni who had achieved distinction and failed to mention the most distinguished one of them all!!!

The following Harvard article should be interesting to those who wonder how someone like Prof. Abdus Salam could be treated as persona non grata in Pakistan:

The Harvard Human Rights Journal (Volume 16, Spring 2003)

``Persecution of the Ahmadiyya Community in Pakistan:
An Analysis Under International Law and International Relations``
by Amjad Mahmood Khan.

The article can be accessed at:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/current/khan.shtml#Heading55

Dost-mittar/FerozeK: I though Zia migrated from Jullundhar, and became a Hindko speaking resident of Peshawar. And Dilip Kumar was also from the Hindko speaking area of Peshwar.

Though I have never been quite able to figure out, which is the dominant language in Peshawar - Dari, Hindko or Pushtu.

Plat:
I did not say he got the prize for String theory. I said he was shown on the show about String theory. Any way it was a well made, easy to understand and informative show. Missed the later part of it though.

Thanks ziahmed for that information about its rerun on Saturday. I will try to see it again.

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Urstruly;

You missed the question I asked earlier: what would happen to a person like Dr. Abdus Salam in “your Islamic state” … if, from being a Muslim, he one day decided to become an Ahmadi?

Your analysis is that … Ahmadis are pretending to be Muslims … and that is a sinister plot to damage Islam. Your solution is that … no other religion should be allowed to preach in a Muslim polity … and if a Muslim leaves Islam, he should be killed. Only a low-IQ, antisocial mullah like you can come up with such hate-filled ideas.

Then you complain about atrocities being committed against Muslims. Sahib, save these alligator tears. Your anguish is not due to human suffering … but due to your inability to inflict pain on others to please your insecure god.

Urstruly#125:
Your post is the best repudiation of your earlier post; there is no need for any such law in Pakistan (or in India, for that matter). But I would make a distinction between individual and mass conversions. The former to me represents a genuine conversion, the latter seems to be a social/political act. It is my personal view that religious beliefs should not be sneaked under socio-political garb.

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#108 by jay on October 31, 2003 6:39am PT
you wrote ``..... as a man who belived in truth, he would be proud of my posts and ashamed of your white wash attempts``

Proud of your post, yeah right, I think you are good with words and probably work for some indian under-ground org. .
Your posts do not strike as a post from a scientist but someone who belongs to an organization similar to KKK.

RIP! JAY

dost mitter

I will support VHP if they insist on such law because it is their right. Islam, which is a religion that promotes its dissemination like no other religion never had a problem with such restrictions in any part of the world ever. Islam has spread more because of the example that its adherents set and not the prolystization. Islam is the fastest growing religion in both Europe and North America not because there are missionaries knocking at each door and distributing their pamphelts to passersby in the subway stations like jehova`s witnesses; heck those who are indulged in preaching Islam can`t even speak the local language properly yet Islam is spreading. No invasions on North America and Europe but Islam is spreading. Muslims are portrayed as evil incarnate, terrorists, ignorants who beat up their women and oppress them and pagans in those countries and yet Islam is spreading. Only because Muslims set an example. Principles without an example are nothing but hollow words; as zia ul haq referered to the constituion as just a piece of paper.

Urstruly:
``The best solution to this problem is the imposition of the Islamic law that prohibits the proselytization of any religion to Muslim subjects of the Muslim politey.``

...how about India imposing a law prohibiting the proselytization of any religion to the hindu subjects of the hindu polity (whatever that means!)? This is precisely what VHP guys demand in India. And they probably have a greater reason for making such a demand: After all, there is no known case of any conversion from islam in Pakistan while you hear frequent reports of hindu conversions in India.

Dostmittar #106:
[[I did not ``blame`` hindus for provoking the riots, if that is what you mean. In those riots, muslims were one party and hindu-sikhs another. All I said was that the sikhs did most of the killings on the hindu-sikh side. As the expression went, it was hard to find even a ``khundi chhuree`` (blunt knife) in a hindu home.]]

[Hindus were quite content to let the Sikhs DIE and KILL for THEM]

It surely came of as such. You did imply that the Sikhs died for ``them``(Hindus)? Do you really think the Sikhs died and killed for the Hindus and not themselves?

Harpreet:
[ Lets talk about the riots and talk about the fact that in the space of three days a genocide was commited against the Sikhs of Delhi by lynch mobs sponsored by the ruling party of India, and the fact that not a single perpetrator of these crimes and the organisers of them have been brought to justice.]

That was most descpicable and it`s a shame that no one has been punished. But does that mean that the blame for Parition massacres has also to be borne by the Hindus alone?

Here is what I have observed and ofcourse this is my personal viewpoint.

1. Sikhs were wronged or they believe they were wronged, treated badly etc by the Central govt (naturally predominantly Hindu) pre-1984.
2. Then Bluestar and the Delhi riots happened.
3. Sikhs being terribly aggrieved felt betrayed by the Hindus.
4. So they go back and question, why did we fight the Moghuls FOR THE HINDUS?
5. Why did we kill during Partition FOR THE HINDUS?
6. Why did we join the Indian Army in droves and died FOR THE HINDUS?

My beef is with the last three points. Did the Sikh do everything for the Hindus only? Nothing for themselves? They didn`t fight the Mughals for their survival. They didn`t join the army (since British times if I may add) because it was a major source of employment in the largely agrarian Punjabi economy (again those 8 `military` districts of Pakistan come to mind). They didn`t indulge in the Partition killings because they were pushed out of their native lands in West Punjab and were being killed by the Muslims..

Everything was done for the Hindus. And how did the Hindus pay them back?

It is this mentality displayed by SOME Sikhs that I am objecting to.

[[Please could you describe for me the parameters of criticism that Sikhs, and Hindu Punjabis like myself, are allowed to make without falling into your blessed category of whingeing and moral ``high-horseness``

I would like to know so that I can discuss these things without ruffling your impeccable whiter than white feathers. ]]


Hey I am no one to define parameters for other people`s behaviors. As an Indian citizen/or an NRI You have every right to complain, criticize what you feel is wrong/unjust in India..

I was just explaining my perspective... Hope you and others understand.

Regards..