Why is the West so angry with Dr. Mahathir?

sorry...abt the raja dahir part...i mixed up my history....he comes from an earlier time period..apologize for the mistake

so it seems...the gujjus are cowards....as a gujarati and a bania at that...i would like to clarify a few things about gujaratis in general and banias in particular
MYTH 1: gujaratis are vegetarian
Reality: loads of crap...minus the brahman bania upper castes and the wannabe upper-caste kanbis(patels) the rest including the rajputs , ahirs , lower castes and tribals are totally meat-eating...in population terms 70% of gujarat is non-vegetarian

MYTH 2: gujjus are all bania cowards....banias (jain , hindu and muslim) form 3-4% of gujarat , brahmins form close to 5% , rajputs 7% , the gujjar castes 13% ( includes various artisan , nomadic castes..for eg..the kathi (as in Kathiawad) rabri etc) these are the people who descend frm the central asian migrants who gave gujarat its name , patels form 12% , the muslims close to 8% and the rest are the ones who qualify for reservation.

MYTH3 : there are no gujaratis in the armed forces...
REALITY: totally incorrect , the fourth chief of the indian army was
General Maharaj K.S. Rajendrasinhji, DSO
C-in-C, 14 Jan 1953 - 31 March 1955
COAS, 01 April 1955 - 14 May 1955
Armoured Corps, 2 Lancers
a kathiawadi rajput
infact..when the modern day Grenadiers Regiment was formed ...most state forces of kutch and the kathiawad peninsula were megred into it...some of them were later merged into the mechanized infantry and the brigade of the guards.
Most of the BSF cadre in the kutch region of gujarat and mewar of rajasthan are kutchi and kathiawari rajputs...if anyone of you has relatives in the bsf...you can cross-check. as for the gujarati representation in the standing army...keshubhai patel gujarat`s former CM , mr. LK advani and the current CM narendra Modi have time and again demanded a seperate gujarat regiment...and a proposal to create one was in advanced stages during the BJP rule...though it was shot down by General VP malik saying that the army doesnt need any more regiments based on state or linguistic identities...and i totally agree with this...moreover most gujarati rajputs join the rajputana rifles and the rest join the grenadiers...so a seperate regiment is not required...imho
as far as kargil is concerned...there is a widespread myth on the net that no gujarati died in kargil...heres a link of the gujarati soldiers who died in kargil http://armedforces.nic.in/airforce/afkargil/arguj.htm
i believe we come fourth
and by the way...if you bufoons expect a mr. shah or a mr. mehta to join the army ....youre talking bull-shit...a majority of the soldiers who died in kargil are from the shekhawati region of rajasthan...aslo home to the many marwari bania castes...funny i dont find any agarwal or porwal or jain in the martyrs list...there is a score of martyrs from the cow-belt states...funny...i dont find a gupta amongst them....all this is for a simple reason the vanik or merchant castes of north india have been strictly vegetarian for the last millenium...the have never participated in any physical warfare...so its stupid to expect them to join the armed forces..atleast not the standing army....the same is true for the banias of gujarat.
and btw gujarat has a strong martial history:
the gurjar-pratihara clan which ruled gujarat in the middle ages controlled most of western and central india

When mohammed of ghor invaded gujarat to sack somnath...he was beaten many times ...finally when he did manage to sack somnath...it wasnt a cakewalk for him...his army sufffered serious losses and 100000 solanki rajputs perished defending somnath...i dont think this smacks of cowardice...(on his way back raja dahir of sindh(another supposed cowardly race) harrased him so much that he gave up the thought of invading india after that)

i can quote many such examples

Myth 4: gujaratis are communal cowards who kill unarmed muslim children and rape muslim women
REALITY:
since independence 5 major riots have taken place in gujarat the major one being the ahmedabad riots of 1969....each of these riots has been started by the muslims (the riot of 1969 was started when hindus were murdered in the jama masjid area of the walled city of ahmedabad
PS: the local muslims still call that part of the city ``bhadra``....as a grand temple to goddess bhadrakali the patron deity of the cities rajputs...was destroyed by the invading musalmans and converted into an ugly mosque( the so-called jama masjid)
the hindu response was as severe in 1969 as it was in 2002...what was lacking in 1969 was a media controlled by marxist bongs and semi-negroes from rajnikants domain...so i guess the ``intellectual`` discomfort with the riot was not much...well times change

i hope i have clarified a large portion of myths pertaining to gujaratis
if you have any questions pls do forward them,
Thanks,
Drupad Kanakia

``service is lowly and agriculture is noble...but only trade is profitable``
- an old Bania proverb

so it seems...the gujjus are cowards....as a gujarati and a bania at that...i would like to clarify a few things about gujaratis in general and banias in particular
MYTH 1: gujaratis are vegetarian
Reality: loads of crap...minus the brahman bania upper castes and the wannabe upper-caste kanbis(patels) the rest including the rajputs , ahirs , lower castes and tribals are totally meat-eating...in population terms 70% of gujarat is non-vegetarian

MYTH 2: gujjus are all bania cowards....banias (jain , hindu and muslim) form 3-4% of gujarat , brahmins form close to 5% , rajputs 7% , the gujjar castes 13% ( includes various artisan , nomadic castes..for eg..the kathi (as in Kathiawad) rabri etc) these are the people who descend frm the central asian migrants who gave gujarat its name , patels form 12% , the muslims close to 8% and the rest are the ones who qualify for reservation.

MYTH3 : there are no gujaratis in the armed forces...
REALITY: totally incorrect , the fourth chief of the indian army was
General Maharaj K.S. Rajendrasinhji, DSO
C-in-C, 14 Jan 1953 - 31 March 1955
COAS, 01 April 1955 - 14 May 1955
Armoured Corps, 2 Lancers
a kathiawadi rajput
infact..when the modern day Grenadiers Regiment was formed ...most state forces of kutch and the kathiawad peninsula were megred into it...some of them were later merged into the mechanized infantry and the brigade of the guards.
Most of the BSF cadre in the kutch region of gujarat and mewar of rajasthan are kutchi and kathiawari rajputs...if anyone of you has relatives in the bsf...you can cross-check. as for the gujarati representation in the standing army...keshubhai patel gujarat`s former CM , mr. LK advani and the current CM narendra Modi have time and again demanded a seperate gujarat regiment...and a proposal to create one was in advanced stages during the BJP rule...though it was shot down by General VP malik saying that the army doesnt need any more regiments based on state or linguistic identities...and i totally agree with this...moreover most gujarati rajputs join the rajputana rifles and the rest join the grenadiers...so a seperate regiment is not required...imho
as far as kargil is concerned...there is a widespread myth on the net that no gujarati died in kargil...heres a link of the gujarati soldiers who died in kargil http://armedforces.nic.in/airforce/afkargil/arguj.htm
i believe we come fourth
and by the way...if you bufoons expect a mr. shah or a mr. mehta to join the army ....youre talking bull-shit...a majority of the soldiers who died in kargil are from the shekhawati region of rajasthan...aslo home to the many marwari bania castes...funny i dont find any agarwal or porwal or jain in the martyrs list...there is a score of martyrs from the cow-belt states...funny...i dont find a gupta amongst them....all this is for a simple reason the vanik or merchant castes of north india have been strictly vegetarian for the last millenium...the have never participated in any physical warfare...so its stupid to expect them to join the armed forces..atleast not the standing army....the same is true for the banias of gujarat.
and btw gujarat has a strong martial history:
the gurjar-pratihara clan which ruled gujarat in the middle ages controlled most of western and central india

When mohammed of ghor invaded gujarat to sack somnath...he was beaten many times ...finally when he did manage to sack somnath...it wasnt a cakewalk for him...his army sufffered serious losses and 100000 solanki rajputs perished defending somnath...i dont think this smacks of cowardice...(on his way back raja dahir of sindh(another supposed cowardly race) harrased him so much that he gave up the thought of invading india after that)

i can quote many such examples

Myth 4: gujaratis are communal cowards who kill unarmed muslim children and rape muslim women
REALITY:
since independence 5 major riots have taken place in gujarat the major one being the ahmedabad riots of 1969....each of these riots has been started by the muslims (the riot of 1969 was started when hindus were murdered in the jama masjid area of the walled city of ahmedabad
PS: the local muslims still call that part of the city ``bhadra``....as a grand temple to goddess bhadrakali the patron deity of the cities rajputs...was destroyed by the invading musalmans and converted into an ugly mosque( the so-called jama masjid)
the hindu response was as severe in 1969 as it was in 2002...what was lacking in 1969 was a media controlled by marxist bongs and semi-negroes from rajnikants domain...so i guess the ``intellectual`` discomfort with the riot was not much...well times change

i hope i have clarified a large portion of myths pertaining to gujaratis
if you have any questions pls do forward them,
Thanks,
Drupad Kanakia

``service is lowly and agriculture is noble...but only trade is profitable``
- an old Bania proverb

The Chittagong Hill Tracts were awarded to Pakistan despite its non-Muslim majority on the basis that its economy was tied to the coastal plains to the west and there were no roads through the mountains to the east that would connect it to India.

The Pak claim to Gurdaspur is based on one telegram: a preliminary map of the partition of Punjab is supposed to have been sent out by Radcliffe and in that map Gurdaspur was shown to be awarded to Pakistan. It resulted in indefensible boundaries and hence the telegram which read ``Eliminate the salient``. The revised map of Punjab included Gurdaspur in India. This has led to all sorts of conspiracy theories including that Mountbatten already thought about Kashmir and had Gurdaspur awarded to India to provide a road link to Kashmir. Which conveniently forgets the fact that Indian troops were airlifted to Srinagar to push back the tribal irregulars led by Pak Army officers.

Anything anybody writes about motives is completely speculative. Radcliffe himself never discussed the partition with anybody till his death.

Yaaaawn!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Gentlemen,
Might this map be of some relevance to your discussion:

?

Actually, this one might be more relevant, showing the Chittagong Hill Tract District:

Ref nakhok #211

[Pakistan`s regimes remember that Pakistan didn`t get Gurdaspur but very conveniently forgets that it got Chittagong Hill Tracts, Khulna and the city of Lahor.]

Equally conveniently, they forget that District Montgomery in West Punjab had an overwhelming Sikh majority but was awarded to Pakistan instead of to India.

#224 Urstruly

``If you look at the map, it was not physically possible to award chittgong (one with the port) to India at the time (or even Chittgong hill) because of the political unique situation of Tripura and Mizoram and the geographical compulsion that it imposed. ``

That is incorrect.

(1) There was absolutely nothing in the geography to preclude CHT`s inclusion in India. CHT had only a minuscule Muslim population. Furthermore, it was geographically contiguous with British India`s Assam which (apart from Sylhet) went to independent India.

(2) As for ``political unique situation``, while Tripura was a princely state, Mizoram (the Lushai Hills District as it was known in 1947) was a part of Assam in British India. Mizoram area came under British control in the 1870s. For the first few years after the British annexation, Lushai hills in the north remained under Assam while the southern half remained under Bengal. Both these parts were amalgamated in 1898 into one district called Lushai Hills District under the Chief Commissioner of Assam. With the implementation of the North-Eastern Reorganisation Act in 1972, Mizoram became a Union Territory and as a sequel to the signing of the historic memorandum of settlement between Government of India and the Mizo National Front in 1986, it was granted statehood on 20 February 1987.

#224 Urstruly

``Please dont switch your stance. In your original post you were referring only to Chittgong and not the Chtagong hill district citing the reason that Radcliffe awarded chittagong to Pakistan because it needed a port. If you look at the map, it was not physically possible to award chittgong (one with the port) to India at the time (or even Chittgong hill) because of the political unique situation of Tripura and Mizoram and the geographical compulsion that it imposed. ``

I stand by my statement. There is no need for me to switch stance. To recapitulate, this is what I had written, ``Radcliffe awarded CHT to Pakistan, on the grounds that Chittogong port needed a significant buffer of Pakistani territory between itself and Pakistan`s land boundary.``

Yes, Tripura was a princely state. Mizoram was not. In 1947, Mizoram was part of Assam in British India.

nakhokh

Please dont switch your stance. In your original post you were referring only to Chittgong and not the Chtagong hill district citing the reason that Radcliffe awarded chittagong to Pakistan because it needed a port. If you look at the map, it was not physically possible to award chittgong (one with the port) to India at the time (or even Chittgong hill) because of the political unique situation of Tripura and Mizoram and the geographical compulsion that it imposed.

Dost Mitter

But of coursewhat you would say would always be ``scholarly study``.

#218 by dost-mittar

``I am not knowledgeable enough about the the detailed geography and demographics wrt Khulna and Chittagong hill districts (Is Chittagong and Chittagong hill districts one and the same thing?)``

(1) Chittagong and Chittagong Hill Tracts are adjacent districts. Chittagong has a coast line - Chittagong Hill Tracts does not.

(2) Chittagong Hill Tracts has borders with two Indian states, namely, Tripura and Mizoram. Tripura was a princely state. Mizoram used to be part of Assam (which went to India) before it became a Union Territory.

(3) Khulna borders West Bengal. The Radcliffe Award was a little late in being made public. As a result, Khulna residents had actually raised the Indian flag on 15th August because they had expected Khulna to be in India by virtue of its Hindu majority. However, when the Radcliffe Award became public it was found to be in Pakistan. Radcliffe awarded it to Pakistan on the grounds that East pakistan needed extra coast line and a second port.

Urstruly:
Barkhurdaar, do I have to explain to you the difference between hearsay and a scholarly study?

Dost Mitter

You mean you were merely passing out hearsey?

Urstruly:
``but you are quick to throw judgements around``
I did not make any judgement. I simply made reference in my post#216 to a study by someone else (Pof. Datta).

dost mitter

``not knowledgeable`` ?????

but you are quick to throw judgements around

Urstruly#217:
I am quite aware of the principle of contiguity. But I am not knowledgeable enough about the the detailed geography and demographics wrt Khulna and Chittagong hill districts (Is Chittagong and Chittagong hill districts one and the same thing?).
Mizoram, as far as I know, has been administered by India since independence. While it became a union territory in 1972, it was part of the state of Assam before then.

Linking the case of accession of Gordaspur to that of Chitagong and Khulna is not only dishonest but it is factually wrong and unjust. The accession of the then district of Chitagong to India at the time of Radcliffe was not physicaly possible. One of the core principle of Radcliffe award was that the acedeing areas should be geographically adjacent to either Pakistani Muslim Areas or Indian Hindu areas. Chitagong did not qualify, at that time to be adhjacent to India. At that time it was surrounded by princely state of Tripura and the federally administered district of Mizoram. The state of Tripura aceded to India as late as 1949 and Mizoram district was forcibly made to accede to India not until year 1972. So Radcliffe at that time had two options for district of Chitagong i.e. either to keep it as a part of province of Bengal as it was or to declare it as an autonomous unit. The second option was impractical and unacceptable. So in case of Chitagong, Radcliffe did not paly favorites with Muslims but rather he did not have a choice.

Similarly, the case of khulna which at that time was a part of province of Bengal; I am not sure if it had an overwhelming majority of Hindus at that time or not but geographically it was surrounded by Muslim majority areas. If you keep in mind the Radcliffe award principle of adjacent areas in mind it does not make sense to give its accession to India. Similar a case then could be made for Aligarh a Muslim dominated area surrounded by Hindu majority and Bhaun (district Chakwal) a Hindu dominated area surrounded by Muslim majority. But the case of Gurdaspur is clear and unquestionable injustice.

nakhok#204:
``Even if Gurdaspur had gone to India, Amritsar would still have been linked to India via Kapurthala and Firozpur districts. ``
Firozpur could also have gone either way. Kapurthala was a princely state although it could safely be presumed to opt for India.
According to Prof. Datta`s study, Mountbatten really felt bad about Sikhs not getting their earlier seat of power, Lahore, and their holy places of Nankana and Panja saheb. He wanted decisions in Panjab to be viewed favourably on the Indian side and to compensate Pakistan in the East wrt Khulna and Chittagong hill districts.

#214 sadna

Oops! I should have said late October 1947 - which was when tribal raiders entered Jammu and Kashmir.

I am familiar with the coerced accession of Kalat, i.e. a major part of Baluchistan, to Pakistan. Incidentally, prior to this event, Kalat supposedly possessed a status relative to the British Crown, similar to Nepal, i.e. it dealt directly with the India Office in London, not the Viceroy in New Delhi, as was the case with all the other princely states.

Kalat`s accession did of course precede India`s police action in Hyderabad. You`ll rarely hear any mention of this from Pakistanis, of course.

AlephNull #213
``Unfortunately, Pakistan established another precedent - that of employing armed force - in late October 1948``

The Pakistani Army moved into Kalat(Balochistan) earlier on April 1 1948 and forced the Khan of Kalat to sign the instrument of accession to Pakistan.

( The Khan had previously declared independence of Kalat on August 15 1947 and subsequently formed a bicameral assembly after holding elections for the lower house. The lower house endorsed the declaration of independence in September 1947).

#211 nakhok

Precisely. In fact Junagadh (with the added complications of the enclaves of Mangrol and Babriawad) was a poisoned bait designed to establish a legal precedent one way or another for the accession of either Hyderabad or Kashmir to Pakistan.

Unfortunately, Pakistan established another precedent - that of employing armed force - in late October 1948, when it sent tribal raiders, officered by Pakistan Army personnel, into Kashmir. All Indian military and police actions came subsequent to the establishment of that precedent by Pakistan

Pakistanis today like to complain about the alleged inconsistency of Hyderabad, Junagadh and much of J & K being in India`s possession, without examining the chronological sequence of events that led to this outcome.

Urstruly,

Sahib, please pull up your pants … you are standing butt-naked in front of a jeering crowd.

You started with the 80% claim, and constructed a (hypothetical?) dialogue between Jinnah and Zafrullah. You now admit that the 80% figure was grossly inflated. As for your sources, they have turned out to be hearsay. Apparently you talked to a few people who subscribe to your viewpoint, in order to validate your viewpoint.

I’ll ask again: what would happen to a person like Dr. Abdus Salam in “your Islamic state” … if from being a Muslim, he one day decided to become an Ahmadi?

You may ignore this question once again … and that’s fine. It is clear that your conscience, as well as your intellect … have decayed beyond redemption.

#209 by AlephNull on November 4, 2003 2:50pm PT

``If Urstruly wasn`t complaining about Gurdaspur and Kashmir, he would bring up `Hyderabad Deccan`, and if not that, then Junagadh. ``

It will be instructive to put the above in chronological order. The Radcliffe Award for Gurdaspur and the Nawab of Junagarh`s accession to Pakistan were the earliest. They were in place by the partition of India. Next came the invasion of Jammu & Kashmir by tribal militias in October of 1947. And finally came the police action in Hyderabad in November of 1948.

The Pakistan version of history amounts to having your cake and eating it too.

Pakistan`s regimes remember that Pakistan didn`t get Gurdaspur but very conveniently forgets that it got Chittagong Hill Tracts, Khulna and the city of Lahor.

As for Junagarh, its Nawab acceded to Pakistan on 15th August 1947. Pakistan`s then prime minister, Liaquat Ali Khan, had argued then that a ruler had the absolute right to so accede without reference to the moral or ethnic aspects of accession. (No double standard then in J&K as Pakistan would have the world believe.) In fact, in mid-September of 1947, it was Junagadh, as a part of Pakistan, that sent troops into Babariawad (a group of 51 villages) and Mangrol (a teeny princely State) -- both entities located in the heart of Junagadh and both of which had already acceded to India.

On November 8, 1947, saddled with an administration that had come to a standstill, the dewan of Junagarh (Shah Nawaz Bhutto) officially handed over the reins of Junagadh to the Government of India

And even as the Pakistan government was railing about the right of the Nawab of Junagarh to do as he pleases, it was directing tribal raids into Kashmir in October of 1947 to force the hands of the Maharaja who had signed a Standstill agreement with Pakistan!

It ill-behooves of Pakistan regimes to complain of any double standard. It had tried to gain kingdoms by hook or by crook and had come out of its efforts with less than satisfactory results (from its point of view). It was Pakistan that had adopted a double standard. It is another matter that Junagarh and about 60% of Jammu & Kashmir ended up in India in spite of the Pakistan government`s shenanigans.

As for Hyderabad, Pakistan was realistic enough to realize that it wouldn`t be able to hang on to the land-locked kingdom, surrounded on all sides by India, even if the Nizam acceded to Pakistan. But it tried to do the next best thing, namely, oppose Hyderabad`s accession to India. It wanted Hyderabad to remain independent (something the Maharaja of Kashmir had tried to do as well before the tribal raid from Pakistan forced his hand). Pakistan was driving full throttle in the ``heads I win, tails you lose`` mode.

In November of 1947, the Nizam appointed a Pakistani as president of Hyderabad State`s Executive Council, loaned Rs 20 crore (Rs 200 million) to Pakistan in the form of Government of India securities, but wrote secretly to Lord Mountbatten, Governor-General of India, to assure him that he would not accede to Pakistan. The Government of India wrote back pointing out violations of the Standstill Agreement that had just been signed; Government of India objected to the two ordinances.

The Nizam ignored India`s objections and went about doing everything to establish itself as an independent kingdom. The Nizam`s machinations caused a breakdown in the law and order situation as the hated Razakkaars (a private militia enjoying the nizam`s patronage) and Marxist groups clashed repeatedly creating communal havoc in the State, especially in the border districts of Andhra and Hyderabad.

On September 13, Indian government`s decision to take police action in Hyderabad finally put an end to the anarchy and to the Nizam`s dream of ruling an independent kingdom. On November 23, 1949, the Nizam issued a firman (edict) accepting the Constitution of India, to be formed by the Constituent Assembly of India then in session, as the constitution of Hyderabad State.

If Pakistan didn`t end up with Hyderabad, Junagarh, Jammu, Ladakh and the Kashmir Valley, it wasn`t because it didn`t try to have it all regardless of the principles, but in spite of it. Pakistan regimes carry no credibility when it blames India of adopting a double standard. Pakistan would have had no qualms about double standard if it had managed to usurp all these territories.

#207 by RationalFaith on November 4, 2003 2:01pm PT

``In Pakistan, you would be pressed hard to find one `educated` young man or woman who who can not tell you what `happened` in Gurdaspur and how Pakistan was `cheated.` ``

Curriculum objectives in Pakistan schools don`t leave much to chance. Here are excerpts from a couple of articles by the doyen of Pakistani journalists, Ardeshir Cowasjee:

---

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
15 June 2003 Sunday 14 Rabi-us-Saani 1424

`Pakistan first`
By Ardeshir Cowasjee

..... The national curriculum objectives as set forth by the federal ministry of education in 1995 remain unchanged, eight years on. By completion of Class V, according to this curriculum in force, children are required, inter alia, to understand Hindu-Muslim differences, identify the forces working against Pakistan and India`s evil designs, and make speeches on jihad and shahadat.

They are also expected to promote an awareness of the Kashmir issue, to observe their fellow pupils and note their reaction to the wars with India, judge their spirit while they make speeches on jihad, and note their keenness and willingness to recite tarana at school functions. As commented Sami Mustafa in this newspaper on May 18 in his article on the subject:

``So much for teaching tolerance, objectivity and scholarship to the future generations of this country ... Sadly, it appears that the national curriculum is anything but about education. It is primarily a hopeless attempt to control young minds and compensate for the incompetence and inability of our policymakers to come to terms with the demands of a new world, which is the individual development of each child, not the mass development of children so that they fit into a political system that is inefficient, retrogressive and unenlightened.`` .....

---

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
11 June, 2000

Misguided zeal
By Ardeshir Cowasjee

..... Consider the impact of the national curriculum objectives on the mind of a 12-year old child in his last year at primary school. He is not taught to hope for a joyous future, a good life in a peace loving country in which goodwill towards man and the well being of its citizens prevails. The child is told that life is all about battling invisible enemies and that fear is to be feared.

The kindergarten to class v curriculum adopted by the ministry of education in 1995 is, to say the least, a bizarre piece of work. .....

..... Amongst the objectives to be achieved is the ability to - 1) understand the Hindu and Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan; 2) know all about India`s evil designs against Pakistan; 3) acknowledge and identify forces that may be working against Pakistan; 4) demonstrate by actions a belief in the fear of Allah; 5) demonstrate the desire to preserve the ideology, integrity and security of Pakistan; 6) make speeches on jihad and shahadat; 7) guard against rumor mongers who spread false news and to stage dramas signifying the evils of rumors; 8) understand the Kashmir problem; 9) collect pictures of policemen, soldiers and National Guards.

How can a child be expected to preserve ideology of Pakistan? And how on earth is a 12-year old expected to understand and know all about the `Kashmir problem`? .....

..... Now to quote from a textbook entitled `Pakistan Studies` published by the government to be taught in Classes IX and X : ``After the death of Aurangzeb Alamgir in 1707 AD his successors could not control the vast Moghul Empire and as a result South Asia gradually fell prey to the forces of anarchy.`` One reason given is ``the spirit of holy struggle and war (Jihad) which was the fountainhead of power of Muslim kingdoms faded gradually. Thus the military power became weak. Ease and laziness blunted the military prowess.``

For some unknown reason, when the story of Pakistan catches up with the 20th century and the 1980s, there is a lacuna as to the departure of Zia-ul-Haq from the national scene : ``Unfortunately the Junejo government was dismissed on May 29 1988 after it remained in power for three years and two months. The National Assembly and the provincial assemblies were dissolved by the president. In November 1988, general elections were held on a party basis.``

Discussing factors that lead to the high birth rate in Pakistan, the book teaches that the primary factor is the ``hot climate of the country.`` And on the secession of East Pakistan, all that the book has to say is : ``Bangladesh was separated from Pakistan and became an independent country in 1971.``

Compulsory reading for BA, B.Com, MBBS, and B.Sc Engineering is another book entitled `Pakistan Studies` which attempts to explain the ideology of Pakistan : ``What does Pakistan mean? It means there is no God but Allah.`` Dr Ishtiaq Hussain Qureshi defines it further : ``Thus the Pakistan ideology is the guiding principle of the Muslim majority regions of the South Asian subcontinent for obtaining an ideal Muslim state, Pakistan which has been chosen as a keynote for passing life, both individually and collectively, according to the Islamic conception of life and for resurgence of Muslim society.`` .....

---

#204 nakhok

Don`t confuse Urstruly with facts or context. I don`t think historical facts hold any intrinsic value for him. They are useful only as adjuncts, as pegs on which to hang his deep-seated sense of grievance against those who have supposedly denied him his birthright as a Muslim. The first thing to understand about Islamists, bearded and shaven, is that they cannot really exist without hate objects, kafirs, external figures at whom to direct their resentment and to whom they can address themselves in self-righteous tones. If Urstruly wasn`t complaining about Gurdaspur and Kashmir, he would bring up `Hyderabad Deccan`, and if not that, then Junagadh. If those were unavailable, he would still resent the fact that India, as a large and powerful country on a sounder footing than Pakistan, makes him look hopelessly inadequate by comparison.

Nakhok and Dost-Mittar

I didn`t know the details provided by Nakhok # 204.

In Pakistan, you would be pressed hard to find one `educated` young man or woman who who can not tell you what `happened` in Gurdaspur and how Pakistan was `cheated.`

That`s how assiduously Pakistani `educationists` and `intellectuals` have worked to sow the seeds of hate among their own people.

Amazing what some dedicated purveyors of hatred can do to a whole country....

#205 by dost-mittar

``Gurduspar to Pakistan would have meant that the sikh holy city of Amritsar would have been surrounded by Pakistan.``

I am not sure about that. Even if Gurdaspur had gone to India, Amritsar would still have been linked to India via Kapurthala and Firozpur districts.

#205 by dost-mittar

`` But my discussion with Urstruly was not about the Radcliffe award per se but the evidence regarding the incompetence/perfidy of Zafarullah Khan, and hence this was extraneous to the issue. ``

No, I don`t think it was extraneous. In fact I specifically concluded in post #204, ``If Zafrulla Khan is to be blamed by Pakistanis for failing to convince Radcliffe to award Gurdaspur to Pakistan, fairness dictates that he gets credit in equal measure from Pakistanis for convincing Radcliffe to award CHT, Khulna and the city of Lahore to Pakistan.``

Pakistan was indeed incensed that Gurdaspur wasn`t awarded to Pakistan. But much of it might have been an afterthought after Pakistan failed to achieve 100% success from its invasion of the kingdom of Jammu & Kashmir.

I haven`t come across anything in literature to suggest that Zafrullah was reprimanded by Jinnah for failure to competently represent Pakistan`s case on Gurdaspur. It may not be anything more than an urban legend that has morphed to kill two birds with one stone - attribute the failure to conquer Srinagar to:

(1) British-Congress conspiracy dating back to Radcliffe.
(2) Lack of competence or worse of an Ahmadiyya.

In reality, the responsibility for the failure to conquer Srinagar lay elsewhere. A lot of Pakistani writers have honestly confessed to failures elsewhere for Pakistan`s lack of 100% success from the invasion of Jammu & Kashmir. Here`s a small sample of what some Pakistani writers have been recently writing on the Kashmir Invasion of 1947:

---

Excerpt from Article in DAWN (07/27/99):

Kargil - before and after
By Zafar Iqbal

..... MILITARILY, the critical point which was supposed to have created the Kashmir problem was the hiatus in the tribesman`s march towards Srinagar when they stopped for a bit of ``rest and recreation`` (R&R) at Baramulla about a dozen miles from Srinagar airport. Their concept of recreation included a diversion into some looting and pillage and possibly a bit of rape on the side.

Anyway, whatever the truth, this window of opportunity permitted the Indians to capture Srinagar airport and bring in reinforcements; at least so the story is told. The ultimate result was the cease-fire line. .....

---

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
10 April, 2000

Kashmir: time to change tack
By Brig (retd) M. Sher Khan

..... The story of Kashmir is a long saga, which started at the very inception of the new-born nation of Pakistan. While the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir was wavering about deciding which of the two new dominions his largely Muslim state should accede to, large tribal lashkars from the NWFP region invaded the state with the aim of forcing the Maharaja`s hand in acceding to Pakistan. When these lashkars were in a position to seize Srinagar and its airport, the lust for spoils, loot and pillage got the better of them. The Maharaja panicked and sought Indian intercession, the price of which was that he should first sign an instrument of accession. .....

---

Excerpt from Article in Pakistan Link (1/28/2000):

Men and Events That Mattered in Pakistan
By Mohammad Ashraf Chaudhry

..... The Kashmir problem which brought Pakistan to the three most costly wars it fought with India with the fourth looming on the horizon, might have been solved had Liaquat
Ali Khan, the then PM, accepted Sardar Patel`s proposal to exchange Hyderabad with the Valley. As Sardar Shaukat Hayat puts it, Liaquat Ali Khan brushed aside the proposal by saying, ``Sardar Sahib, do you take me for a fool to accept a few hills in exchange for the vast plains of Deccan?`` India usurped Hyderabad anyway and forcefully occupied Kashmir too, leaving Pakistanis ruminating as to who was right, Liaquat Ali Khan or the Sardar of Wah who insisted on accepting it.

If this sounds somewhat dramatic, here is another event that let Kashmir slip away from Pakistan`s lap. In 1948 the, Tribal ``Mujahidins``, brought by Major Khurshid, had reached Srinagar which lay deserted. As they put their hands on the National Bank and came by some 3 lac rupees, it so happened that while the Major insisted on taking away that money as it belonged to the government of Pakistan, the ``Mujahidins`` on the contrary persisted in their demand to celebrate Eid-ul-Azha along with it, and in this tug of war they lost three most precious days. This lull and halt provided India enough time to rush its deployments to the area and what happened next to the rest of the story as far as Kashmir is concerned is well known to all. .....

---

dost mitter

The %age was deliberately inflated to achieve a consensus to my liking.

Nakhok:
``Chittagong Hill Tracts, for example, had only a miniscule Muslim population. Yet, Radcliffe awarded CHT to Pakistan, on the grounds that Chittogong port needed a significant buffer of Pakistani territory between itself and Pakistan`s land boundary. ``
I am aware of that. According to Prof. Datta who did an extensive study of the archival material relating to Radcliffe, this was also the argument made in case of Gurdaspur. Giving Gurduspar to Pakistan would have meant that the sikh holy city of Amritsar would have been surrounded by Pakistan. But my discussion with Urstruly was not about the Radcliffe award per se but the evidence regarding the incompetence/perfidy of Zafarullah Khan, and hence this was extraneous to the issue.

Urstruly:
Dependence on hearsay can be quite unreliable, as you could see by your assuming a 80% majority of muslims in Gurdaspur which was far from true.

#200 by Dost-mittar

``Incidentally, I picked up some census figures from a source which favours the Pakistani position on the Gurdaspur award to show that the majority was marginal. Other than that, I made no comment regarding the credibility of the source.``

Radcliffe didn`t always go by majority, even when the majority was substantial.

Chittagong Hill Tracts, for example, had only a miniscule Muslim population. Yet, Radcliffe awarded CHT to Pakistan, on the grounds that Chittogong port needed a significant buffer of Pakistani territory between itself and Pakistan`s land boundary.

Likewise, the district of Khulna (which had a marginal majority of Hindus) went to Pakistan on the grounds that East Pakistan needed a second port.

And in West Pakistan, the city of Lahore didn`t quite have 50% plus Muslims. Still it went to Pakistan! Lahore used to be Maharaja Ranjit Singh`s capital. Today it is practically a 100% Muslim city because of Radcliffe.

If Zafrulla Khan is to be blamed by Pakistanis for failing to convince Radcliffe to award Gurdaspur to Pakistan, fairness dictates that he gets credit in equal measure from Pakistanis for convincing Radcliffe to award CHT, Khulna and the city of Lahore to Pakistan.

Dost Mitter

I can name a few sources of ``facts and figures`` after going through the little library that I have if you insist.

But let me be clear that the perception of the facts and figures is purely my own. Remember that Radcliffe was not an open forrum, i.e. its daily proceedings were not presented before the general public everyday. I guess the general public was kept outside that building where Radcliffe Award held its meeting, by a board that read ``Indians and Dogs not Allowed`` and our glorious Indian police of the Raj.

As a common man that you and I are, we are effected by the end results that are decided by the powers that be. I only know one thing i.e. Zafarullah khan was my representative and he failed me.

Also there is this aura of respectibility that is cast around his personna by Quadianis. Even a slightest criticism of him is dealt with severe scorn, as if criticising a public representative if he happens to be a Quadiani is equivalent to anti-semitism. In the washed down official history of Paksitan criticising political figure that took part in the creation of Paksitan was considered a grave sin until a few years ago. As I wrote below to harimau, no public official is beyond criticism. But some people are still living in the past.

Urstruly:
So, it is suni-sunaaee!
[I checked google using various combinations of, zafarullah, radcliffe, empowered delegate, delegate, partition. Didn`t find a thing to support your contention]

Dost

The generation who lived thru partition is still alive; I am talking about the generation who was mature enough at the time to understand the politics and what was going on at the time. They are the common men, who were never in the corridors of power but they were fully aware of what was being decided as their fate in those corridors of power. I guess that generation was one of the most politically aware generation of all times in the history of sub-continent. I get my cues from them - then I try to verify their perceptions thru the facts and figures as recorded by history. That is how I form my perception i.e. thru the two sources of inspiration as quoted above.

Zafarullah Khan was an empowered delegate in the Radcliffe award commission representing the Muslim League side. I hope you understand the meaning of ``empowered delegate``. An empowered delegate is a representative of a group whom the group entrusts to make a decision on their behalf. He could not (or wouldn`t) get the issue of Gordaspur on the Awards agenda despite knowing the importance of the issue. He could have resigned from the Award if he felt that the commission was imposing an unjust condition on the people he represent. He only came back to Quaid for telling him when the damage was already done. Quaid was bound to respect the decision of his empowered representative as a matter of principle but he did express his dismay.

If in his (Zafarullah) opinion, no unjustice was done, then why he represented Paksitan`s case for Kashmir in the United Nations. He could have simply said that he agreed to Award in principle and did not want to pursue the matter any further. But he didn`t. And this proves that he was not only an opportunist but a charlatan. And by the way plain incompetent, from the perspective of the people whom he was representing.

Urstruly:
Dont insult me by calling me bhains. Could have called me ``maj`` at least:-)

What`s going on here, my friend? I never even raised the issue of the correctness of the Gurdaspur award. The only question was the supporting evidence of your claim about Zararulla`s perfidy/incompetence wrt the Radcliffe award. If your statement was based on ``suni-sunaaee`` please say so.
Incidentally, I picked up some census figures from a source which favours the Pakistani position on the Gurdaspur award to show that the majority was marginal. Other than that, I made no comment regarding the credibility of the source.

For the record, one of the three commandos who died defending Akshardham temple was ``Al-lahrakha Unadjam of Umej village in Junagadh district, a state commando of the Group III SRPC company of Mandana( Banaskantha )``.
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15102002/1510200255.htm

I cannot find a web source, but I saw a TV report which described how he was found dead only 10 feet away from the body of one of the terrorists whom he had obviously approached and shot dead without regard for his own life.

Dost Mitter:

Even after reading the statistics and the full article that you quote yourself as being a credible source you still think that no injustice was done to Muslims in Gordaspur & Kashmir then I am sorry I dont have much to argue with you. I cannot keep playing flute in front of a ``bhains`` forever, as the urdu proverb goes.

Urstruly:
I think you have also to worry about your own credibility by curbing your tendency to exaggerate. The Muslim majority of the Gurdaspur district was only marginal, not 80%. Here is an excerpt from a Pakistani source trying to prove the perfidy of the Radcliffe award. For complete article, see:
The Kashmir issue – XXXVII, The Gurdaspur conspiracy, K. Z. Islam http://www.weeklyholiday.net/210203/inret.html

``The district of Gurdaspur in the Punjab had on the basis of 1941 census an overall Muslim majority of 51%. Gurdaspur had four tehsils (sub-districts) viz., Shakargarh (51.3% Muslims), Batala (55% Muslims), Pathankot (61% Hindus) and Gurdaspur (52.1% Muslims).``

In any case, I did not ask you to provide evidence that the Radcliffe award was changed but for the perfidous/incompetent role of Zaffarullah in it. From what I have read, no outsiders had any say in it and, if any hanky-panky was done, it happened in secret.


stuka:
Another thing, I am still not sure that I fully understand gujjubania. My first impression is that he is a naive superpatriot who equates patriotism with a hatred for Pakistan. See this excerpt from his posting on another board where he seems to be willing even to rebuild the babri masjid for muslims:
``Every patriotic Indian MUST be anti-Pakistan. If Indian Muslims are anti-Pakistan , there will be no more hindu-muslim problems. Infact I am sure the hindus will re-build the Babri Masjid and present it to our muslim brothers.``

Dost Mitter

Unfortunately, all my sources are incredible because I am the agreived party. There are three sources of info on Radcliffe - British, Indian, and Muslim. British sources would never claim that they did anything wrong by giving Gordaspur with 80% of Muslim polpulation to India; for India it was the right thing to do because with their anti-Muslim hatred and prejudice they had/have totally lost the concept of right and wrong; and third source is Paksitani which is incredible for both Indians and British because they are Muslims.

But despite that, how hard is it to judge the truth if you keep the formula and principle of partition in mind and analyze it thru an unprejudiced mind.

Here is the concluding part of Khushwant Singh on Hindu Sikh relations from The Tribune.

Hindu-Sikh relations - II
Punjabiat can show the way to brotherhood
by Khushwant Singh
THE man most responsible for widening the gulf between the Hindus and the Sikhs was Bhindranwale. Starting as a preacher, exhorting the Sikhs to return to the spartan traditions of Guru Gobind Singh, he chose that an easier way to stop Sikhs lapsing into Hindu fold was to create a gulf between them. He used abusive language for the Hindus describing them as dhotian topian wale — wearers of dhotis and caps. His goons threw heads of cows in the Durgiana Temple. Hindu goons retaliated by throwing cigarette butts in the Golden Temple, smashing up a portrait of Guru Ramdas, founder of the city, on Amritsar railway station. Then it came to killing Hindus. Buses were hijacked, Hindu passengers off-loaded and shot. Punjabi Hindus set up their own Shiv Sena, armed its members with trishuls (three-pronged spears). If Sikhs could carry kirpans, they had every right to carry trishuls, they argued. They claimed a membership of over 80,000.
Bhindranwale had to be silenced. This was no easy task since he was a creation of the government as well as the Akali leaders. He was arrested on charges of involvement in the murder of Lala Jagat Narain of the Hind Samachar group. Giani Zail Singh, then Home Minister, who had a negative knee-jerk reaction to whatever Chief Minister Darbara Singh did had him let out on his own terms. Sant Longowal described him as a danda (stave) to beat the government. G.S. Tohra, President of the SGPC, let him find sanctuary in the Golden Temple and convert Akal Takht into a fortress. Indira Gandhi, misled by her advisers, chose the crudest way of getting rid of him: she ordered the Army to storm the temple complex. What could have been handled by the police (as proved later by Operation Black Thunder) was a botched-up “operation Blue Star”. It was a horrendous blunder entailing a heavy loss of life and damage to sacred property. Though Bhindranwale was killed, he became a martyr in the eyes of the Sikh masses. Since the Hindus did not share the anguish caused to the Sikhs, most of them who had never supported Bindranwale, the gulf between the two communities widened.
Worse was to follow. The widespread massacre of innocent Sikhs following the assassination of Indira Gandhi embittered the Sikhs against the government as well as the Hindus who they felt had not done enough to save their lives and property. The demand for an independent Sikh State gathered momentum.
The first open declaration in support of Khalistan was made on April 13, 1986 at a convention of the Sarbat Khalsa in Amritsar. The June 1986 issue of Sant Sipahi, edited by Dr Rajinder Kaur, daughter of Master Tara Singh, published the details. “The Khalsa Panth will have its own home where the writ of the Khalsa will run supreme.” It demanded recognition by foreign nations and recognition by the United Nations. It asked the Sikhs living outside Punjab to migrate to their “homeland”.
Their anger against the government and disenchantment with their Hindu brethren were justified. But the solution proposed was totally unviable. So far not one protagonist of Khalistan has drawn a map outlining its boundaries nor given the communal ratios of other communities, including Hindus, Christians and Muslims. At the very best it would be a land-locked state, almost entirely dependent on agriculture. Its only buyers would be India or Pakistan. If the state envisaged is the present-day Punjab what will happen to the 20 per cent or more prosperous section of the community living outside Punjab — in the Terai area, Sriganganager district of Rajasthan and the rest of India? It should be evident to every Sikh that Khalistan would be the doom of the Khalsa Panth. Fortunately, most Sikhs have come to realise that their future lies in remaining an integral part of India.
The realisation came after 10 years of bloodshed and lawlessness. There were nearly a dozen gangs with fancy names like the Babbar Khalsa International, the Khalsa Commando Force, the Bhindranwale Tigers Force, and the Khalsa Liberation Front, composed of between 10-50 men armed with weapons like AK-47 rifles, grenades, etc, made available by Pakistan’s ISI, which also set up training camps for them. Terrorist gangs ruled the state by might — the policemen were too scared to come out of their police stations. By day the police took its revenge by looting villagers whose homes had been visited by terrorists. Terrorists collected levies daswandh (one-tenth in the way of protection tax). They extorted money, molested women and shot anyone who resisted them. Their word was law; no lights at night, village dogs had to be silenced by poison or bullets. Hindus began to migrate from villages to towns and cities where they felt safe.
The governments, both Central and state, were at their wits’ end. They held meetings, changed Governors, imposed President’s rule, talked of elections, made Mr S.S. Barnala Chief Minister for a while without a clear policy for the state. By sheer chance the government’s gamble to hold elections paid off. It was boycotted by all Akali parties and the BJP. Because of the absence of any Opposition the Congress recorded a sweeping victory and Beant Singh was elected Chief Minister. His top priority was to eradicate terrorists. He had the full support of Governor Surendra Nath, a retired police officer with plenty of money at his disposal. The task was entrusted to K.P.S. Gill, then DIG, Police.
By then Punjab was sick and tired of terrorist depredations. Mr Gill carried forward his predecessor Julio Ribeiro’s policy of a bullet for a bullet by infiltrating into the ranks of terrorists and bribing informers. He had the support of the Army which successfully blocked contacts with Pakistan. Within a few months Mr Gill had terrorists on the run. Many were killed, many more laid down their arms and surrendered to the police. They were too scared to come out of jails on bail lest they be killed by their own erstwhile colleagues. Mr Gill had good reasons to pat himself on the back. But somewhat prematurely. On August 31, 1995, a human bomb exploded outside the Punjab Secretariat building killing Chief Minister Beant Singh and nine others.
Khalistan is dead as dodo. But separatist elements still find takers among the Sikhs. The latest example was the acceptance of the Nanak Shahi Calendar prepared by Piara Singh of Canada by the SGPC. Hitherto the Sikhs had followed the Bikrami Calendar to celebrate their religious festivals. Some anomalies were certainly there — some years ago Guru Gobind Singh’s birth anniversary was celebrated twice but no one bothered. But the logic behind the rejection of the calendar is insidious: all communities have calendars of their own, why not the Sikhs? In addition, while it mentions Bhindranwale as a martyr, it ignores the martyrdom of Sant Longowal.
Law and order has been restored in Punjab. Its peasants grow bumper crops of wheat and rice year after year. Its industrial city, Ludhiana, is booming with its hosiery, bicycles, sewing machines and ancillary motor parts. Its products find markets in India and abroad. Punjab could even do better provided its two principal communities worked hand in hand. At the moment they live together but separately. This is not good enough. For the spirit of Panjabiyat it is necessary to restore the old relationship of naunh tay maas da rishta. It can be done provided leaders of the two communities stop criticising each other and show the way to a united brotherhood of Hindus and Sikhs.
(Concluded)

Stuka #191:::

No hard feelings!! And indeed, as Dostmittar said, you being an oldtimer are held to higher/better standards.

Stuka #191:::

No hard feelings!! And indeed, as Dostmittar said, you being an oldtimer are held to higher/better standards.
Accept my apologies as well.

#187 Stuka

My quick take on Gujjubania is that many of his opinions (for instance, sweeping generalizations on the loyalty of Indian Muslims to India) are quite unsound. On the other hand, he has written a number of posts that I could not disagree with, in isolation at least. All in all, an oddball.

You on the other hand have been around quite long and have a reputation for sanity (whether or not one agrees with your assessments of specific situations or people - I for one don`t agree with all of them). People may have held to a higher standard based on your past record, because they expected a more nuanced approach from you, whereas they are by now quite inured to Gujjubania`s posts.

For an analogy, one doesn`t expect to see Jaswant Singh use the same kind of language as Uma Bharathi.

While I`m at it, let me give you a little personal context. I was taken aback by the reaction to Godhra and astounded at the manner in which many Gujaratis justified it. I am not convinced that I know what really happened and what to make of Modi`s subsequent election victory. For instance - is the average Gujarati Hindu really fundamentally intolerant, or was s(he) just fed up at being depicted as such by arguably biased media coverage of events? It could just as easily have been me roundly cursing Gujaratis en masse, using the exact same stereotypes you used. In fact I have already done it in private. I make no claim to being better than you, just not as quick on the draw. Growing up, I was also exposed to assorted uncomplimentary stereotypes of various Indian sub-nationalities, with Punjabis heading the list. These generalizations may be accreted around a kernel of statistical truth - they can neither be accepted nor rejected in toto. I think the reasonable course to adopt is not necessarily to discard human stereotypes but rather to never prejudge an individual human being based on the groups he might belong to.

Sorry if this sounds sanctimonious - I really want to convey my own all-too-human fallibility in this regard, not preach to you from on high.

Satyavadi:

``But hey the numbers are much better that I would have expected, and certainly good enough to make Stuka rethink? ``

For the record, I came down on Gujaratis because Gujju Bania`s nick was indicative of his ethnicity and my aim was to drive home a certain point. I did not intend to insult Gujaratis in general, though it was an obvious consequence. I apologize for hurting your feelings. It is not as if Indian Muslims are dearer to me then Indian Gujjus or the other way round.

Dost Mittar:

`` I am generally more tolerant of unacceptable views than of unacceptable language. ``

Really? Well, let us agree to disagree on that one.

Alephnull #186:
[Here is Bharat Rakshak’s Kargil memorial. It lists a total of 449 names, so it is not quite complete. What is significant is that 13 of those named were from Gujarat, and a fair number of those were definitely Gujarati Hindus. ]

So there goes another myth down the drain? Underrepresented by a factor of 2 is not that bad.. Again, the Kargil numbers may not be completely indicative of the composition of the army, as they depend on which regiments were used.

But hey the numbers are much better that I would have expected, and certainly good enough to make Stuka rethink?

[There are so many factors governing army recruitment vs. pursuing other opportunities that I for one would be very circumspect about giving excessive currency to known ethnic stereotypes about cowardice, lack of patriotism and so on. Even if you don`t really mean it, etc. ]

Great point!

stuka
Its better to use an argument you believe in, one merit being that it can be used universally with all fundos of all shades.

stuka:
That was very decent and expected of you:-).
Re. double standards, I have criticised one or two of gujjubania`s posts and I believed I too was lumped into the `enemy` category. But he is a newcomer on chowk and I do not feel the same ``rights`` over him as over you. Moreover, I am generally more tolerant of unacceptable views than of unacceptable language.

Dost Mittar, Aleph Null

Fine. I accept your criticism. What I do not understand is...I curse out Gujaratis today, and I have 3-4 Indians tell me off. This guy curses out INDIAN muslims day in and day out and no one calls him out? Am I the only one seeing the double standard?

Stuka #169

Here is Bharat Rakshak’s Kargil memorial. It lists a total of 449 names, so it is not quite complete. What is significant is that 13 of those named were from Gujarat, and a fair number of those were definitely Gujarati Hindus. (I recall at least one Gujarati Muslim name from another, perhaps more complete list, which I am now unable to locate). So Gujarat is under-represented by a factor of about two relative to its population fraction. Incidentally Kerala is under-represented by just about the same factor. Himachal Pradesh, J & K, Punjab, Rajasthan, seem (at first glance) to be significantly over-represented. Ladakhi Buddhists seem massively over-represented relative to their population fraction.

There are so many factors governing army recruitment vs. pursuing other opportunities that I for one would be very circumspect about giving excessive currency to known ethnic stereotypes about cowardice, lack of patriotism and so on. Even if you don`t really mean it, etc.

stuka:
``The idea was not to insult another ethnicity for the heck of it``
Maybe you didn`t realise it but that is exactly what you ended up doing, in my opinion anyway!

Dost Mittar:

It is true that Gujju Bania did not initiate vulgarities against me in person. But he has been doing so for quite some time against fellow Indian citizens. Plus, he has been handing out certificates of patriotism as if it is his daddy`s wedding.

Ii also agree with Sadna. The whole ethnic slur approach was deliberate, to push home the idea that if religion is one parameter, then ethnicity can be another. I have nothing specific against Ggujaratis. Satyavadi misunderstood me. If Gujju Bania was Tamil, I would have thought something up against Tamils. The idea was not to insult another ethnicity for the heck of it but to demonstrate the stupidity of using one parameter to judge patriotism, and also to show disdain for the idea that an individual with no standing can decide who is patriotic and who is not.

stuka:
I was surprised at your post#167 which I found in bad taste (spending too much time at unplugged, eh?). I agree completely with sadna`s post#178.
It`s one thing to be strongly critical of gujjubania`s venom against muslims, it is quite another to use vulgarities. It is one thing to hurl indecent insults at someone who has done that to you, it is another to initiate this process. Sorry, if I have been out of my place here.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Urstruly:
``Whether Zafarullah did what he did at the Radcliffe because of his incompetence or because of his religious beliefs just because he thought that QuadiaN would remain relatively safe in India`s hands is open to debate.``
Looks like you missed my earlier response. If Qadianis wanted their holy place to remain in India, why did they vote for Pakistan? As I said earlier, Hindus of Qadian treated Ahmedias as Muslims and so did Qadianis themselves. They were killing each other and there was no way that they would have trusted a Kafir country more than their new homeland.
In any case, all my readings have suggested that the Radcliffe award was based solely on census records and administrative maps. I have never read about Radcliffe amenable to any pressure from any group. Could you please tell me of a credible source of your report, if you are aware of one?

Sadna:

There is a major difference:

I don`t believe what I am saying about Gujjus. This idiot believes what he says about Indian Muslims.

My entire post was a reaction to his calling me a Paki, simply because I had a different opinion. If he can religion as a barometer of proving patriotism, I can just as easily pick up ethinicity and rub it in his face. The Army was not used as a watermark of contributing to the nation. I know well enough that one can contribute in many ways.

My purpose in highlighting the Army was this: Those who fight in the Army have bullets fired back at them. They face danger and yet, fight. Yet we do not here lectures of patriotism from them, nor inuendo questioning patriotism.

In contrast, we have this idiot who proudly supports the killing of defenceless Muslims, self admittedly did not join the Armed Forces because it does not pay enough, and has the gall to question the patriotism of another Indian. What a scumbag, and a coward to boot.

stuka
There is no essential difference between your generalisations and gujjubania`s.
gujjubania takes hatred for Muslims as the criterion of patriotism, you are taking caste/ethncity/membership of the Indian Army as the criterion of patriotism.

Committed people of all religions and castes have made valuable contributions to the welfare of India in their different ways and people of all professions have made valuable contributions to the welfare of India.

Both your arguments donot hold water even if you view contributions from a purely militaristic/ combativeness POV. For example Indian Muslims have died defending India in wars and a Muslim policeman even died defending Akshardham temple from Pakistani terrorists. Indian Muslims have been in high positions in India`s security establishment.

And you need to know that without being in the Army, Gujaratis have contributed hugely to the key factor in India`s security ie growth of its economy and industrialisation. And for example, without Vikram Sarabhai a Gujarati Hindu, India would not have had a successful space program, whose spin offs to India`s defence I shouldnot have to spell out. His daughter Mallika (like many other Gujarati Hindus) has been consistently speaking out about the Gujarat riots and has been suffering harassment from Hindutva types as a consequence.

These are people who are fighting to do their best to tackle difficult issues in real life, as opposed to passing off their illinformed personal prejudices as gods truth online.

Urstruly:


``One part should be Khalistan because sikhs have suffered enough and it is their right; the other part should be North India excluding Hyderabad Daccan which should be free again;``

If your geographic knowledge is a reflection of your intellect, I am not surprised the Ummah is getting kicked around. I think u should stop worrying about Kashmir and go fight with the Afghans. I heard they no longer recognize the Durand line and claim Peshawer as Pakistan, along with Quetta? With Sindh joining PONAM, chances of West Punjab joing East Punjab seem rather high.

Don`t worry, we will make Sameer JB Chief Minister of United Punjab state. :)

Gujjubania:

``And going by your logic , if joining the Army is the index of patriotism , its interesting that Muslims comprise 13-14% of India`s population , but less than 1% of Indian Army. ``

And what does it say about Gujaratis that they comprise even less then that?

``....we Gujjus serve the country by contributing to India`s economy. No community has contributed as much to India`s finances as Gujju Banias /Marwadis. ``

Making money and hoarding is not the same as contributing to the economy. As I said before, the biggest chors who have looted the country have come out of Gujarat. Harshad Mmehta being one example. Also, it is Gujarati HINDUS who finance traitors like Dawood Ibrahim. That Diamond Merchant guy is a prime example.

So, if serving the country comprised of:

Not serving the Army because it does not pay enough

Making money for self and family while contributing to instability

Stealing money of middle class investors a la Harshad Mehta

Being cowardly to the extent that only defenceless people are attacked


Then yes, Gujaratis are definitely serving the country. Question is, which country??

All the following discussion proves is that India must immediately be divided into four parts before everybody who lives there starts raping and killing each others mothers and sisters. One part should be Khalistan because sikhs have suffered enough and it is their right; the other part should be North India excluding Hyderabad Daccan which should be free again; the third part should be South India with the exclusion of Western Coast line above Bombay and the fourth part should be Kashmir which we will be most obliged to take.

That was the original plan all along for the partition but your greed got in the way. I wish your greed could have overcome your prejudices also; then it wouldn`t have been half that bad. People! don`t you understand why Two Nations Theory makes so much sense?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Stuka:::

I am not surprised that you are not amused by my post. What you felt after reading my post was the exact same thing I felt after reading your posts.

I just wanted to illustrate the folly of generalizing what Gujjubania says to all Gujarati Hindus, and I think I succeeded..

---

I will tell you an anecdote here which happened a few months afer the Gujarat riots...

Three of us were discussing Orissa...And I happened to comment that though that state is very rich in natural resources that has not translated to prosperity or industrial development.

A Delhiite guy, who happens to be a leftist liberal responded by saying, atleas they(Orissans) don`t go about killing 2000 people in 2 months or some such thing...

My response to that was::: Hey how about killing 3000 people in 3 days in the NATIONAL CAPITAL? He couldn`t say much..

BTW..that guy is a Punjabi Jain..So is it something with Punjabis?

---

For the record I condemn the Godhra burning and the subsequent killings and hope that the perpetrators are punished, much like I would like to see Bhagat etc behind bars..

---

The killers in Delhi might have been UP/Biharis but many of the leaders were clearly Punjabis...

---

Gujjus are only traders? One word::: Reliance..

---

Please take your moral outrage to my post elsewhere.. Like you said, I am not impressed either..

Satyavadi: At least live up to your assumed nickname. If Ii had seen one word of recrimination for the fellow Gujju I at least would have had some respect for your post. But you show true colors by reacting only to that what affects your community, while completely ignoring all the garbage this idiot has been spewing. I think I am a bigger man then you two, at least Ii am enraged by hatred spewed at fellow Indians even when I am not the target. So take your moral outrage elsewhere, I am not impressed.

Satyavadis: Yeah, how many Punjabis do you see gloating over killing Sikhs? BTW, Punjabi Hindus did not take part in any riots. Study some history before opening your mouth. It was hired goons of UP and Bihar.

``Yeah the top floor of the Punjabis` is khali (empty), so they have no choice but to till land and join the army.. We sympathize with you guys...Business karna tumhare bas ki baat nahi..And yeah, most non Punjabis think of Punjus as hotheaded idiots.. ``

Kya hua? Did not get a chance to kill some Muslims so you are in a bad mood? Have you heard of Oberoi Hotels, Apollo Tyres and the like? Punjabis do very well in business. In fact we build infrastructure and actually make something by adding value unlike traders from Gujarat.

Tthe Army is a profession where all Indians join and do well, except Gujaratis. If your definition of AKAL is killing defenceless people and gloating over it I am glad rest of India has a khaali dimaag. Show me one Punjabi Hindu who sits and gloats over killing Sikhs otherwise give company to your fellow bigot.

Stuka 167:
[I am sick and tired of you Togadia type motherfukkers who think they have a certificate of patriotism. I am a patriotic Indian and I think all Gujarati Hindus should be burnt alive, their mothers and sisters raped for inflicting Togadia types on us. ]


And I think all Delhiite Punjabi Hindus should be burnt alive, their mothers and sisters raped for inflicting Jagish Tytler and HKL Bhagat types on us, and then electing their cronies and their party(Congress) in election after election.

Let`s see a single conviction for the murder of 3000 Sikhs in Delhi in 3 days...Hey Gujarat was 2000 Muslims over a period of 2 months.. See the difference?

[Most Non Gujjus think of Gujjus as cowards. No Gujju coward joins the Army or BSF. ]

Yeah the top floor of the Punjabis` is khali (empty), so they have no choice but to till land and join the army.. We sympathize with you guys...Business karna tumhare bas ki baat nahi..And yeah, most non Punjabis think of Punjus as hotheaded idiots..

Gujjubania:

``So you have finally exposed yourself for what you really are - beneath the sophisticated veneer lies a.... PAKI. ``

LOL!! Dude, then u better start worrying. If I am a Pakistani, then most of my fellow countrymen are Ppakistanis too. Where will you go? You better start a liberation movement for Gujarat because obviously India is too Paki for you.

``Oh nothing to be disappointed about , you are in an exalted company - heard of Bidwai , Arundhati Roy ,Kuldip Nayyar , Farzana Versey of chowk fame ? They are Pakis too. Hell , even Mahatma-ji Gandhi-ji was a Paki. He wanted to settle down in Pakistan and was about to migrate just before his oh-so-unfortunate death happened , remember ? Hell even Pandit-ji Nehru-ji was a fellow countryman of yours - why else would he impose his anti-progress ideas on India and give away 1/3rd of Kashmir ? ``

That stunt might work with bleeding heart liberals but won`t work with me. You did not answer my question.

Abdul Hamid was an Indian Muslim awarded Pasram Vir Chakra. How many Gujaratis have been awarded PVC? NONE!

Kargil Website: Patriots from all regions gave life to defend our country. EXCEPT???? Bingo? Gujaratis!! LOL!! The cowardly ``master race`` to which you belong has not produced a single shaheed and you want to teach us about Patriotism? LOL!! What a joke.

If anyone is a fifth agent in India it is the typical Gujarati Bania, a cowardly weakling who kills 13 year old Muslim boys playing cricket to prove his manhood while avoiding the real danger of Kashmir and Siachen like the plague. The Gujarati Bbaniya, who kills defenceless citizens thereby creating instability in India, creates bitterness amongst fellow citizens, all to hide his cowardliness in front of the rest of the nation.

I am surpirised Mian Musharraf has not given Nishan e Pakistan to all Gujarati Baniyas for services rendered to Pakistan. Iif anyone should be recognized by Ppakistan for services rendered it is the cowardly Gujarati Baniya. He has done more harm to India then any number of ISI spies.

I give you an open Challenge u Gujju twit:

Please name the regiment in which Gujaratis take a lead in serving the nation. Pplease name ONE Gujarati who has recieved an award for action in the face of the enemy. Please name ANY Gujarati Baniya who gave his life up for India in war, including the proxy war in Kashmir.

I will give you Indian WHO HAPPEN TO BE OF THE MUSLIM FAITH WHO HAVE DONE ALL THIS. Who then is the real Paki?

hamidm (#135),

While you very well may be right … time becomes an issue for me. With Urstruly, I read his 4-5 lines, and find enough absurdities to make a few comments. The man thinks and writes with child-like stupidity. On the other hand, reading 4-5 posts from tahmed every day turns into a chore. One cannot afford to get into a discussion with him … since he drowns you with irrelevant, dry details and an unflinching sense of holiness. Romair … I usually don’t have time to read his longish posts … so can’t say where he is coming from.

It seems that the silent majority has been silent too long. Accepting some ground realities would help us move forward. Then maybe abdul will stop hating nbc and european cars. I do hope that we get there soon … and shave Urstruly’s head while we are at it (or tahmed’s and romair’s, if majority concurs).

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ggujjubania:

``I happen to be a patriotic Indian . Can`t help it ji , but I am sort of ambitious about my country.``

The country is your father`s property? I am sick and tired of you Togadia type motherfukkers who think they have a certificate of patriotism. I am a patriotic Indian and I think all Gujarati Hindus should be burnt alive, their mothers and sisters raped for inflicting Togadia types on us. Beta, let me tell youif it comes to a civil war you people will be screwed. There is no Gujarati presence in the Indian Army. We can kill as many Gijju Banias as we like and you scumbags cannot do dick. Just thought I would make the position a bit clear.

Also, if your ambition about India is the same as your ambition about Gujarat, then it is the duty of ambitious Indians to teach such a lession to Gujarati Hindus that they think twice about creating problems. Let this be a revelation to you. Tthe name of Gujarati Hindus outside Gujarat is mud. Most Non Gujjus think of Gujjus as cowards. No Gujju coward joins the Army or BSF. The Gujjus are fit to only kill defenceless people. Tthere has not been a single Gujarati patriot. You want to talk about the RSS? The time it was required to kill the biggest Gujju Bania of them all, it was Marathis and a Punjabi who did it.


You come and talk to us about Patriotism when there is a Gujarati regiment in the Indian Army. You were lucky the Narendra Modi was CM. If there are riots and the Army is sent in, it will make Gujju blood flow like it is Holi. Oh, and you can check the Army`s record in Assam, they are good at killing Hindus too.