Mapping Karachi’s Charms and Contradictions

Romair:

as promised yu way back have posted my response to you here

...t

Ras No115;

~~After reading through the interacts I`m tempted to throw my own name in the hat to write a future Pakistani-American novel. Maybe a few other CHOWK writers will beat me to it.... But that nagging question does remain..... Who will publish it?~~

Sir, if it is good, it will get published..go for it :)

zeynab74;

~~recently came across some critcism of Chekhov`s work mostly to saying that he does not resolve the issues for his characters, rather just shows their predicament which does not give his characters any depth. Was wondering if anyone has an opinion on that?~~

Hi zeynab :)

I think the strength of Chekov is exactly what the critic you were reading claimed to be his weakness...that he did NOT resolve the `issues` for his characters...the critic you quote has made a rather simplistic and crude misreading of Chekov, I believe, and I would also totally disagree with the statement that he ``just shows their predicament``

(I am speaking in relation to his stories, I am not as familiar wth the plays as I would like)

Chekov did not believe that it was the writers duty to be a didact or moral arbiter in the ethical, spiritual and emotional entanglements of his protagonists. He was criticised in his lifetime for not writing and engaging more deeply with the political and social currents that other nineteenth century Russian authors saw as the domain of the writer. But Chekov`s attitude was that his only responsibility was to the truth of the situation of his characters, and he registered, minutely and acutely, the emotional registers and nuances of their lives. To do so in the medium of the short story, to suggest such depth and epiphany in the confined space of this genre, was an aspect of his genius.

He describes his characters, their yearnings, their sexual longings, their frustrations and neuroses, their hatreds and love, their fanatacism, megalomania, their betrayals and delusions with a tenderness and respect that accords his characters a dignity that the ``resolving`` of their problems would be an affront to. In real life problems do not get resolved neatly, people try to do good things but end up causing pain and sorrow, and the world is full of the pompous and the pathetic and the adulterous and the saint...Chekov brought them all to life...that was his gift.

nazarhayatkhan #126 Sadly agreed.

Regards from your brother-in-sorrow-at-no-longer-being-20,

tahmed

PS: Even girls at my old university in michigan looked like immature little kids when i was there last month.

PPS: But seriously, after all these years, i find the missus to be as exciting as the first day i saw her. i think it is a question of how one looks at things.

Tehmed32 #120

Tragedy is that by the time good things in life (food, drink, sex) become relatively easily available, it is just a bit too late - to enjoy them to full extent.

Ref ahmedmadani #124

[....Partiarch of Mahabharat Prince Bhishma ... is asked what is most sorrowful. Prince answers when a child looses mother, then looses husband of wife when yound and he says worst in old age when one looses grown up child).]

If people truly understand the depth of sorrow of an elderly father or mother losing a grown-up son, would they inflame the minds of young adults with propaganda about jihad?

When one looks at human history, it is only in the last 100 years that medicine had advanced so much that communicable diseases could be prevented through vaccinations and inoculations and the possibility of children dying before their parents was reduced considerably. It is criminal then to encourage the flower of our youth to sacrifice themselves for a cause in which out leaders don`t have a great stake.

Desmond Morris in his book ``The Human Zoo`` (written in 1969) talks about how the leaders of today stay far from the fighting lines as opposed to when throughout history the leaders were in the frontline of their fighting forces and how this further encourages aggression. He suggests not nuclear disarmament but destruction of the concrete bunkers the leaders (of the US and USSR) have built for themselves so that they would be equally exposed to the dangers that they lead their people into.

Your knowledge of Hindu mythology reminds me of the times when people of different faiths were willing to learn about others so that they can bridge the gap dividing them as opposed to today`s trend of fundamentalist thought where everybody different, it is taught, is evil incarnate.

Thank you for your presence on Chowk.

#122 Yes I felt sad a publishing house went down. A souce of good but very affordable books disappeared.
Presently books in mathematics( in Universities) used in Pakistan are substandard to say most charitable. Most professors write some books from notes written copied from some other texts. There is total lack of depth in treatment of subject and loss of rigor in content and depth. Some times there are outright mistakes. Its like racket they write amature work as book , publish and students in ``captivity`` buy those books. I am writing of books which are very standard basic subjects. They are more like guides than ``text`` books. Even in engineering which I do not know much. I have asked this question to friends of my son (engineer) and friends they could not answer simple questions. (My son also could not answer). In engineering hydrostatic pressure is measured in so many feets of water ( or so many feet of other liquid), and uits of pressure are force/area ie Lbs/ft square ( newtons/ meter square). Most could not explain how water height (FT) is related to pessure PSF.
The reason is most students use guides than real text books. So they follow terms but do not understand meaning. They have information but no knowledge.

Good part about Russian Books were extremely ``pak`` in presentation no ambiguity and very good explaination were scientific than dumbed down books. I miss very offordable scientifically rigerous soviet books. I will tell how bad books affect long time. When teacher himself has never studied good books , made passing through notes and guides foundation is shaky. As Partiarch of Mahabharat Prince Bhishma says famously while lieing on death bed that it takes time to get bad effects of bad karmas ( this is called Bhishma Parva, dieing prince answers some important question of life he has short time as he is waiting to depart as sun enters ``north``- as day starts increasing 21 Dec(?) shortest day of year. one of diagolue he is asked what is most sorrowful. Prince answers when a child looses mother, then looses husband of wife when yound and he says worst in old age when one looses grown up child). Similarly useing substandard books the student body is going down slowly.
I like persuit of subjects regardless of benifits and learning.
Well as hindu you may have objections to socialist propaganda ( not in scientic work) that can be important. But your sages opely declare as one should learn from everybody and their observations king is respected in his kingdom, man with knowledge is respected everywhere. You should not feel afraid of that. India has digested marxism with smile by electing in democratically elected first marxist Govt in world and dispatching it to dust bin also unceremonously.

I have not understood your question.

ahmedmadani #191 chandrasekhar was indeed a great physicist. and the great X-ray telescope, the Chandra telescope. launched into space by the US in 1999 is in fact named after him. By viewing the nonvisual x-rays coming from distant (really, really distant!!) objects, it elegantly supplements the edwin hubble telescope (named after another great physicist who in the 1920`s was the first person to realize that the milky way was not the entire universe but merely one of billions of galaxies - a mind blowing discovery indeed! and if that wasnt enough, he also was the first person to realize that the stars were all receding from one another and based on that came up with the Big Bang theory that has stood the test of time even to this very day of post-quantum physics - he even caused einstein to redo what einstein called ``the biggest blunder of my life``).

the constant your refer to (the chandrasekhar limit) did indeed represent another great revolution in our understanding of the stars: the limit being 1.4, and any star that has a greater density than 1.4 times that of the sun will collapse into a neutron star that emits no visible rays, whereas any that has less will be a white dwarf that is a mere 5 miles in diameter (and billions of time heavier than the earth!!).

yes indeed. these are the true giants of our times. not the ataturks and hitlers and churchills what nots. those people strut around on the human stage, but they are ultimately ordinary men thrust into postions of power. the true giants are people like chandrasekhar and hubble and einstein and now ed mitten (the maestro who pulled the five strings of the string theory together in 1995) who play on a God`s stage itself and quietly live among us, unheard and unseen except by sadly very few people. you must check out the post-quantum string theory sometime. (if nothing else, check sciam.com i think, which is a website that has articles on them).

``Today Mir Publication is not there.``

That is a very sad news. Are you sure, Mr. Madani?

The only good books in mathematics and sciences I could afford were Mir publication books....

#118 Tahmed , I have no knowledge about Quantam Mechanics. I have knowledge about Continuum Mechanics- looking at behaviour of solids liquids and related mathematics as helped some students.
In modern Continuum mechanics the the tensor notation used was developed by Einstein they say. I do not know much about moderm physics. Actually the greatest brilliant scientist produced in Pakistan is Hindu Tamil Brahmin named CS chandrashekhar born in karachi. Most people know a constant in astronomy ( not astrology) chandrashekhar mass or density. If the density or mass called Chandrashekhar Mass, if it exceeds it becomes black hole other wise dieing star. He changed everything as his idea of destroying star was unacceptable for long time. He worked most of things while travelling from Karachi to UK on passanger ship . And it took about 50 years to award him nobel prize for this work. Still we are so backward we get excited by some irani producing movie getting prize at some place, or proud of looter like Mr. Ghori etc and we make them our heros who robbed us as Punjabi poet Shah said these characters destroyed Punjab. Our heros are not even punjabi but looters of Punjab. Its mind boggling when many consider mr. Q khan as a great scientist ( same thing can be said about Indian president Mr. A P J Abdul Kalam).
May be we need feel proud One of most brilliant man of science was born in Karachi. ( His uncle was 1st nobel prize winner from India before independence).

good luck everybody

nhk #119 you write ``A pretty face coupled with a sensitive thinking mind becomes irresistable. ``

i hope for the sake of your marital bliss that you find begum nhk sahiba possessing these irressitable virtues. ;-)

Harimau # 13 & 14

Thanks for the info on Jhumpa Lahiri. A pretty face coupled with a sensitive thinking mind becomes irresistable.

ahmedmadani #116 so i see you are a math lover as well as a fine ranter against lafangbaazi. while not a mathematician, i love to pick the fruits of mathematicians`s labors.

have lately been reading up on string theory which provides a promising (and testable!!) way to reconcile the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics (the thing the mighty einstein struggled against to the end of his life). and in the process to explain the incredibly beautiful simplicity on which the entire edifice of the universe rests; and at the same time the incredibly beautiful complexity whereby we rub shoulders with (to us) phantom universes (a total of 11 in number, per current calculations) that exist in other dimensions beyond our ken; and the absolutely breathtaking idea that everything we perceive in our known universe is a mere hologram - a projection from a knowledge source residing outside our four dimensions. and they can actually test these astounding results.

it is heartening to know that even as humanity faces rough seas on the surface as reported in newspapers, underneath all this we have the true heroes of the human race quietly working away in the deep and unruffled waters underneath all this.

Zeynab,

The internal development and arcs of characters is a modern device, we contemporary readers seem to like nothing more than a narrative. But 14-17th Century Western European authors viewed a character as nothing more than a site/collection/repository of specific ideas, that were not even fixed. A compelling representation of what humans really are- a bunch of contradictions, fluidities, and different masks at any given moment.

The Chekhovian device that you write of- of a character or narrative being situated in an unresolved context is interesting. What effect does it have on the text and the reading?

#91 PZulu.
Old man and sea very pleasurable book to read and good thing it is small.
Corneal graft is only solution. But it has its problem, namely rejection. Post operative and if complications developed is very difficult considering doctors are not very helpful. Worst you can become blind, My right eye is reasonable with Hard contact so decided not to go that way as I can manage very well. Also after 5 to 10 years the condition stabilizes for most people ( I am one of many) and there is no further degradation.

#92 Null Aleph
I am not a poor man , upper middle class person and buy books when I feel. Now a days I do not buy books, some times feel they are not costly but I can use my money better way.

WARNING: IF you do not have interest and no understanding in Mathematics and then its bumper, think as Lafangebazi and skip.

About Mir Publications.
I mostly used them for mathematics and science for understanding.
Your rulers were more profound than this side. Just now I am looking at Mir Book. Its third page writes a note `` this book has been recommended for publications by Indian specialiststs under the program of the Joint Indo-Soviet Board to make the best Soviet textbooks available for Indian students``. It is credit to Govt of India to think of this matter. The books suggested were excellent. My govt. being partner on terror should request America to give good science ,Tech books cheaply to Pakistanis as partner against terror. I think what Indian did was best milking Russian cows for great books.
Specially three books I studied and liked were by Lev Elsgolts.
1.Qualitative Methods in Mathematical Analysis
2. Theory of differential equations with Deviating Arguments
3. Differential Equations and CALCULUS OF VARIATIONS
All the three books were based on course of lectures at physics Dept of the Lomonsov State Univ. Moscow. Good prof has passed away.
You mentioned Leonard Euler as handicapped person in later years. So I will go in that area.
Calculus of variation started developing around 1696 and became independant mathematical discipline after fundamental works of Euler ( 1707-1783). So he is justified as being called father of Calculus of variations. ( Euler did monumental work in other areas of applied mechanics , good work on load calculations by useing differential equations and he clearly must be aware of Problems of Eigen values and vectors as he uses same ideas in finding capacity of columns and raising capacity by provision of constraints.

Three problems started this subject.
a. Problem Branchistochrone ( solved by both bernoulli brothers leibnitz, newton,l hospital independantly by different logics)( to wordy to describe here)
b.the problem of geodesics( line of minimum length on on given surface between two points)
c.and lastly and most interesting - Isoperimetric problem. Finding figure that encloses max area with given length closed curve.( incidently ancient hindus and greeks new the solution , most mathematics books say like that) It is doubtful they new a systematic way of looking at that problem as Euler developed. ( answer is circle)

The Mir selected great books. Calculus of variation really got appreciation after advent of computers.
In the book no.3 Prof. Lev Elsgolts showed by actual examples first problems of stability and uniqueness and some investigation about existance of solutions. ( we know the famous Navier-stroke fluid flow equation in differential form has no solution or really we can not find solution in classical sense). Before starting for variation studies Prof. Lev E. gives great commentary on calculus of varitions and practical problems solved.
Prof. has written book as poetry and has great sense as teacher. He starts with variation problems with fixed boundaries. He solves some problems in mechanics like least action of Ostrogradsky- Hamilton. and asks students to work problems best is he gives answers. Then he moves fast to moving boundaries. Next he spends time on `` sufficient conditions for an Extremum``. As one masters this principle he jumps to `` problems with a conditional extremum`` and last he goes to most important part of ``direct methods in Variational problems``.
In 135 pages he covers the subject with lots of figures explaination and problems for students. Throughout the book he does not loose purity of development.
THE BOOK MENTIONS MOST OF LECTURES WERE GIVEN IN 60s. Later with computers variational analysis made possible the computations of (almost all) field potential problems which engineers could not have understood from computations done in aerospace Industry. Prof Lev E must not be aware of computers for computation use. But this small book has seeds of later methods used as finite element methods ( this is a variation method in pure sense and Functionals are minimised with respect to unknowns) and boundary element methods. Book clearly has given great emphesis on computations. Was it coincidence or Russians knew potential ? no body will knows.
It will be of great interest to know the book gives idea of introducing some constraints as Langragian parameters like pressure ( Indeterminate hydrostatic pressure as one of varible) as constraints in problems of materials of class of rubber. ( Isochoric deformations)
In direct methods the book clearly shows the problems of constraints like problems of Zero diagonal and ill conditioned resulting linear equations. In problems with materials with memory, the asymmetrical nature of matrices. He explains clearly how one can go around with problems with Boundary conditions( which are not known apriory) which will be also be part of solutions. Which led in future the solution of problems , like rubber, paints and memory materials.

Today Mir Publication is not there.
This is tribute to Mir and also to Prof. Lev Elsgolts.

Good wishes to all leaders

After reading through the interacts I`m tempted to throw my own name in the hat

to write a future Pakistani-American novel.

Maybe a few other CHOWK writers will beat me to it....

But that nagging question does remain.....

Who will publish it?

Ras

....I remember that line from PG Wodehouse too!

The morbid humor in Russian literature is incomparible. And Checkhov`s wit, specially in his best works like `The Bear`, `The Three Sisters`,` Cherry Tree` etc is quite unsurpassed. I`m reading some of his later works, mostly his short stories `Betrothed`, `The Black monk`, `Lady with the Lapdog`, and was a bit disappointed because he seems to have lost that satirical edge in those eventhough they`re beautifully written.

I recently came across some critcism of Chekhov`s work mostly to saying that he does not resolve the issues for his characters, rather just shows their predicament which does not give his characters any depth. Was wondering if anyone has an opinion on that?

I personally feel that Checkhov is intentionally forgiving of his characters with all their imperfections. Neither does he romanticize them or provide an easy solution to their plight. Suffering and uncertainity clearly lies ahead of them which I think just makes them all the more human....

damn :p

One of the funniest lines in all of PG Wodehouse is from ``Money for Nothing`` when he describes how the expression on a depressed characters face was like that of ``The hero of a Russian novel who was in the throes of debating the moral and philosophical implications of murdering all of his closest relatives and then hanging himself in the barn``

:)

chekov , not so recently , Ivanoff, cherry orchard, the sea gull , then wood demon followed by uncle vanya. more like, wood demon evolved into uncle vanya.

been reading timothy findley, of more lately.

Skept;

`anyone reading Chekov? `

I`m reading one of his fairly unknown one-acts `Lady with Lapdog`. I absolutely love Chekov`s work... Have you read anything recently?

Zeynab

RE: #84 AlephNll

You once wrote some remarkable posts about Nabokov on Naqshbandi`s board. I was wondering if you happen to know writers whose works are influenced by Nabokov? For that matter, I found alot of Nabokov going on in Pynchon`s works.

peace.

pushkin and nabokov, there are glimpses in the latter, of the former...
anyone reading chekov?

Harimau #104

{{I was under the impression (from reviews of the book) that ``The Golden Gate`` was written in iambic pentameter. For all I know, sonnets (14 lines of poetry) IS written in iambic pentameter.}}

An iamb is a disyllabic metrical foot, stressed on the second syllable (a trochee is a similar disyllabic foot stressed on the first syllable). The iambic foot seems to be the natural default meter of English verse, rhymed or unrhymed (“To be or not to be that is the question”, “The curfew tolls the knoll of parting day”, “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day”, “A book of verses underneath the bough”, etc.). ‘Iambic pentameter’ means five iambs in a row per line of verse (as in all of the verses above). A sonnet is 14 lines of verse with a specific rhyming scheme (typically four abab quatrains followed by a couplet). The standard meter for English sonnets is iambic pentameter (as in the third example above).

However, Vikram Seth’s book was actually written in sonnets of iambic tetrameter in exact emulation of the rhyme and meter of the Pushkinian stanza of ‘Eugene Onegin’. The rhyme scheme for the quatrains is abab ccdd effe, i.e. different from the standard English scheme. A sample of his verses can be found here (note stanza 5.4 in particular). It is interesting that the entire book, from the title and dedication page, and the table of contents, to the author’s vita on the last page, follows this unvarying scheme!

Stuka #102, Harimau #103

{{``From Heaven Lake`` is the travelogue. He was in China gathering data for his PhD in Economics when he travelled to Tibet by road.}}

I happen to own the book (subtitled “Travels through Sinkiang and Tibet”). He actually made it to Nepal from Tibet.

i see that :)

#101 by stuka

STAT 101 anyone?

Ref PunjabiZulu #103

[#102 by stuka on November 12, 2003 2:35pm PT
Aleph Null:

``He first came to public attention with ‘The Golden Gate’, a light novel in sonnets set in the SF Bay Area. You may find it far more digestible than the mock-epic made-for-soap ‘Suitable Boy’. ``

Actually before Golden Gate he wrote a travelogue about his journey across parts of China and Tibet. A good book, it did get a reasonable reception though maybe not the hype that followed later.]

I was under the impression (from reviews of the book) that ``The Golden Gate`` was written in iambic pentameter. For all I know, sonnets (14 lines of poetry) IS written in iambic pentameter.

``From Heaven Lake`` is the travelogue. He was in China gathering data for his PhD in Economics when he travelled to Tibet by road.

skept

thanks...am investigating now :)

Aleph Null:

``He first came to public attention with ‘The Golden Gate’, a light novel in sonnets set in the SF Bay Area. You may find it far more digestible than the mock-epic made-for-soap ‘Suitable Boy’. ``

Actually before Golden Gate he wrote a travelogue about his journey across parts of China and Tibet. A good book, it did get a reasonable reception though maybe not the hype that followed later.

RSaxena:

``{Men on the other hand have a very sharp peak in the IQ distribution. Meaning there is a large variance in IQs of men. }

...nahi yaar, a very sharp peak in the distribution means all persons are centered around one IQ level - less variation...if it is wide, spread out distribution, then there is lots of variation.... ``

Draw a graph and you will see what Sac means. If you put IQ on the Y axis, Sac is right and if you put it on the X axis, you would be right.

Shandana:

``if someone says to me you aren`t a writer because you`ve never had a book published, i shall poke them in the eye.
``

Having been a fan of your writing for a few years, I think you have the right to do more then that.

``Please give me a hint of your thoughts about this...Because I am intrigued now. As a non-Pakistani and a non-Muslim, perhaps there are some allusions I am not aware of and am missing?``

okay, a hint could amount to a controversy which people are quite fond of cultivating, and then others will present counterclaims and then it will get to i don`t know where. and it will be analysed to a point where there won`t remain a point to be made. may be you should check the profile page of membername `skept` where there is a way through which i could tell you what it is. sorry for the trouble.

ChowkStaff

Please consider making this the Feature Article before it dissapears because we are building up an excellent discussion on literature here.

thanks

Saminasha

You crack me up. Thanks for putting a smile on my face :)

OK. I believe one thing, you believe another. Fine. Lets leave it at that. Or if you like, I will surrender and say you win. Congratulations, you win.

AlephNull No.92

Another excellent post.

Punjabi Zulu,

Ah..the specious obvious point approach....perhaps next you`ll be arguing that the indigent need not worry about education as long as they can work menial labor....

PunjabiZulu: I will check out the book you recommended. It looks very interesting. Please let me know if you know of some more.

I have been trying hard to find thrillers by South Asian authors, or about South Asia. The best one I read was the Fourth Round, by Ravi Rikhye (?), in the 80s. There is one co-authored by Clancy, called Line of Control - but it is very limited in its scope.

Saminasha

~~Will you take up the challenge and live for two weeks without any art in any form before you decide how unnecessary it is?~~

You are certainly good for a few laughs. I havent been this patronised in years. Listen, teacher/profesor/sage...this is my point:

*If I live for two weeks without art it will be hard, of course, I will be deprived of higher things and mental stimulation, diversion, consolation.

*However, if I live for two weeks without clean water, food or shelter, I will be dead.

ergo, art is not AS IMPORTANT as the basic neccesities.

enough already.

AlephNull No84;

An excellent post about Nabokov...perceptive, enlightening and well written.

You impress me again sir :)

skept No85;

It was the film version of Trainspotting that alerted me to Welsh`s work. Interesting that you could see the trace of Manto in him. I will have to re-read bearing this in mind.

~~however, to me, this is too explicit to be a latent meaning of the parallels drawn. they have to mean more than this. don`t you think? think about it . i`d reserve my judgments on the latent truth(as i see it) of this allegory~~

Please give me a hint of your thoughts about this...Because I am intrigued now. As a non-Pakistani and a non-Muslim, perhaps there are some allusions I am not aware of and am missing?

ahmedmadani

~~Old man and sea``. As i started getting involved in life and due to my visual handi caps ( Karitoconus) stopped reading and started teaching my daughter mathematics, I had to learn and teach them nealy stopped reading anything but mathematics.~~

Sir, I think that ``The Old Man And The Sea`` is the best of Hemingways novels, would you agree?

A close relative of mine suffered from Karitoconus and was functionally blind in one eye until she had a corneal graft and now with the aid of hard contact lenses, virtually has perfect vision. Does this procedure and kind of transplant surgery not take place in Pakistan?

regards

Ahmedmadani #88

Madani Sahib,

You do not need to thank me for anything. You are one of Chowk’s few true originals. It is an honour to interact with you.

I’m sorry to hear of your failing eyesight. Your remarks on memory are very interesting, so let me add my two bits worth. Two twentieth-century Western writers of the first rank – James Joyce and Jorge Luis Borges – were similarly afflicted; Borges was in fact totally blind for the latter part of his life. He compensated for it by having a prodigious, inexhaustible memory. That he was named Director of the Argentine National Library and spent his days surrounded by close to a million books is only apparently paradoxical. As to mathematicians, the great Leonhard Euler was totally blind for the last seventeen years of his life; blindness apparently increased his scientific productivity. There are some twentieth-century and contemporary cases as well. It is quite striking that blind mathematicians more often than not are geometers. So it may be that above a certain threshold of intelligence, visual impairment, instead of being a handicap, serves to channel one’s intellect, memory and spatial intuition more intensely, and also makes the other faculties, such as hearing/musical sense, more acute and refined. That would certainly fit with your own experiences. Nabokov’s idiom is of course strongly visual – he pays attention to the minutest visual details. He in fact had retained into adulthood a condition called colour hearing, in which sounds generate colour sensations. It or similar conditions (collectively known as synaesthesia) are apparently found in another class of people – exemplified by Nabokov - with extraordinary powers of memory.

The gigantic Vikram Seth book you read was ‘A Suitable Boy’. Amit in that novel has Seth’s versifying talent. You may not have realized it when you mentioned them in the same post, but Seth and Nabokov are actually only two literary removes apart. Seth’s first novel – in sonnets – (The Golden Gate) was in fact inspired by Pushkin`s verse novel ‘Eugene Onegin’ and is in some sense an extremely free ‘translation’ of that novel; whereas Nabokov is notorious for the most pedantically literal-minded translation of the same work.

It is a shame if you can no longer afford to buy books. The Mir Publishers books I bought and devoured as a schoolboy were mostly slim green expository paperbacks on math. Perhaps you remember them too?

#84 ref I agree you are right about Vladimir Nabakov. I am wrong.
About Seth : I read once long book which involved preindepence time to later years. Others I have not read. I work in Karachi and generally I only work based on memory. I do not have access to most books. Neither can afford also. Many times people give me books to read. Its impossible to buy books. In 70s i use to buy many classics by soft covers. Some classics I brought from Mir publications, one one side english book and otherside russian text. One such book was `` Old man and sea``. As i started getting involved in life and due to my visual handi caps ( Karitoconus) stopped reading and started teaching my daughter mathematics, I had to learn and teach them nealy stopped reading anything but mathematics. I have not seen Tv or Cinema for atleast 25 years, I can not see properly that far. With advent of hard contact lenses I slowly can see much better . But due to that handicap my memory became sharp (? or it is my false illusion?) but i can remember many things. Then I began to like mathematics as I can work about it on my mental screen and I use to be euphoric when I can remember and help my daughters in mathematics course up to their post grad work. When I first learnt the tensor notation of writing bunch of differential equations such compact I felt as if this this notation was was developed for people like us.


I feel as they write books in english them may get more people read if they write about more wide subjects. Its creative process and can not be ordered.

I feel sorry I agree now can remember nabakov when lived in Europe( france?) wrote in Russian and he was not at ease with english as deshi writers. I stands to be corrected. Yes earlier works of nabokav can be concidered as cry for loss of russian ethos and loss of motherland russia, and eastern orthodox chuch etc (as you remind I can note in some of his, not so direct as Alexzander Solyzitian I can kind of recall, its so long along, I may be even wrong).
Thanks for correcting and reminding. I am getting old and and my memory has started failing for sure for such details. Still My mind works and and developed sense to intrapolate and extrapolate in every thing. And that handcap made me work as best as I can and made me indespensible ( no body is indespensible) to some extent in my work. My hearing became extremely sensetive as started becoming visually handicapped. And developed great liking for Indian classical music and i studied ( bookish) music and found my ears are good. I can by reflex action pick up a diconcodant note and can note mistake made by masters like Kirana Gayaki Giants. This condition made me very responsive in work. When I am in charge at night my mind works like computer, i remember who is where what repairs needed, nothing escapes even small details , I almost can predict problems and ask people to attend or keep attention, i almost know the lazy persons at what time they will start sleeping instead of working so just few rounds i work every detail from heating of water to kitchen cleaning etc compared to other colleagues. People work hard as they know I will not miss even small detail work i have assigned. But I help all when needed,people like able leader asking them work and helping them work slowly they like doing right work at first time. Sorry for above deliquent writing.

I will like to thank you for correcting and refreshing my memory. I stand to be corrected. Thanks Mr. Aleph Null.

#84 ref I agree you are right about Vladimir Nabakov. I am wrong.

haha. I have had the advantage of living there for a few years (which was one reason i came to read irvine) , which is a reason i have been more at ease with the dialected side of irvine welsh. but the dialect is more to be seen in his shorter works. i recommend everybody to read his other works, longer works, like read `filth` , `glue`, trainspotting`. i guess they have also made a movie of trainspotting. the writing technique, especially in Filth reveals an underlying influence of subcontinental writers, particularly of sa`adat hasan manto (definitely not because of the sexual element ), or may be it is a misconception. you could figure that out by reading it yourself.


``are you saying that Hamid was working out an allegory of the different streams of Islamic thought as represented in those figures from history...the liberal pluralistic strain of Dara Shikoh and the more totalitarian version of Aurengzeb? And then relating it to Pakistani society and the turn it has taken?``

maybe he`s doing that too but if that is so, though this is the obvious explanation of the parallels drawn between the aurangzeb and dara, and auri and daru. the past and the present , and perhaps, a possible future. however, to me, this is too explicit to be a latent meaning of the parallels drawn. they have to mean more than this. don`t you think? think about it . i`d reserve my judgments on the latent truth(as i see it) of this allegory.

Temporal # 69

(need i tell you kiddo that book-selling is a team effort?...marketing endeavour...you scratch me back i scratch yours...if you are not upto it kiss it good bye)

Writing & getting published is not only a commercial enterprise now, it has political & industrial linkages as well.

I know a New York writer Linda Konner who has written 10 books on ``Reducing Weight``. She says reducing weight is a big industry and the book sells.

If Shandana was to write a book on ``Pakistani Black Laws``, oppression on woman, with linkages with religion & social customes - and backed by statistical data, the book may hit No # 1 bestseeler list in West with some awards from Humanists organizations as well.

The only negative side is that she will have to avoid getting killed ...

On the other extreme, one can write almost on any subject, the easiest being the one he is personally involved - the only book that I recently bought from US was ``Waiting`` - an autobiography of a waitress. It is interesting and gives a good insight into the restaurant culture.

Ahmedmadani #22

{{Just two similar giants produced are Vladimir Nabakov and Albert Camus. First (he wrote in russian some literary work) had memory of Russia his parents abandoned after October Revolution and second who left the country of his birth Algeria and migrated to France and what great literature they produced. It is credt to both they did not carry baggage in later years of their past and its so refreshing compared our english writers.}}

I can’t comment on Camus, but as far as Vladimir Nabokov is concerned, you are wrong. He did carry the baggage of his Russian past around on his literary persona. In a way all his novels are about memory. An attentive reading of many of his English novels will reveal a profusion of Russian motifs, some speckling the surface, others cunningly concealed. He wrote primarily in Russian and for a Russian readership for his first twenty years in emigration, in Berlin and Paris. He switched his chosen idiom to English only after two decades of exile and a second world war had thinned out his primary diasporic Russian audience to the verge of extinction. The change appears to have been quite a wrench; for a long time he never tired of declaring his English a second-rate idiom decidedly inferior to his ‘infinitely docile’ Russian. The plaintive lament for the loss of his motherland and native idiom can be heard in the English poem ‘An Evening of Russian Poetry’ and also in the ‘Afterword to Lolita’.

{{Mr. Seth seth is better but he writes too ``long`` more like Tolstoy.}}

Vikram Seth has never stayed in the same genre too long. Among other things, he’s written several slim volumes of poetry, a travelogue, an opera libretto, and a verse retelling for children of animal tales from various sources, beginning with the Panchatantra. He first came to public attention with ‘The Golden Gate’, a light novel in sonnets set in the SF Bay Area. You may find it far more digestible than the mock-epic made-for-soap ‘Suitable Boy’.

Soysauce,

Probably one of the most intelligent interacts on this board. At least you and Shandana are raising the bar...

Punjabizulu,

1. Will you take up the challenge and live for two weeks without any art in any form before you decide how unnecessary it is?

2. Art, highbrow and lowbrow is recognized by its readers/viewers often. But there are also many instances where it good art and its workers have ironically been disdained by the well bred and moral middle class and later enshrined and made untouchable when the work is finally accepted as ``worthy``- I refer you to Richard Wilbur`s poem Museum Piece in which he writes:

The good grey guardians of art
Patrol the halls on spongy shoes,
Impartially protective, though
perhaps suspicious of Toulouse.

Here dozes one against the wall,
Disposed upon a funeral chair,
A Degas dancer pirouettes
Upon the parting of his hair.

See how she spins! The grace is there,
But strain as well is plain to see.
Degas loved the two together:
Beauty joined to energy.

Edgar Degas purchased once
A fine El Greco, which he kept
Against the wall beside his bed
To hang his pants on while he slept.

I am all for that marriage of beauty and energy that our writers are trying to develop post Partition. Cut them some slack.

#22 ahmedmadani
The title of Camus` book that you mention (Ll`Etranger) is properly translated as The Stranger. My personal favorite is The Fall (La Chute).
If you like Jhumpa Lahiri, you probably will like R.K. Narayan too.
The problem in comparing pakistani (or indian) writers writing in english to a Dostoevsky or Camus is that the latter wrote in their native tongue which allowed their subject matter to be more immediate in time and space and they did not have to fit themselves into the minds of their readers who were after all just like them. It amazes me that their genius shines even thru translation - no small feat on the translators` part.
To make proper comparison you should look at writers practicing their craft in the vernacular. From my experience some of them do relate a universal theme and their telling is splendid. Unfortunately their brilliance is often times lost in translation because we don`t have translators who are adequately skilled in the art.

re:#80 by Romair
Thanks for the summary, Chowk Marshal. I would not have the time to go thr` all interacts anyway.
It also tells you something. All your posts are long, boring and inconsequential. Wanna bet what your book will be like if you do write one someday?
Sridhar

So, after all this discussion, we seemed to have reached the following conclusions about the Pakistani English novelists:

1. They exist in very small numbers
2. They are overwhelmingly female
3. They are rich, or at least relatively rich (or their parents were rich to relatively rich)
4. Writing, as a profession, is too risky and does not pay well in Pakistan, so men, as the main breadearners, are not attracted to it
5. As a group, the Pakistani English novelists are very average (very average = politically correct way of saying not-too-good), at the moment
6. We should all encourage the Pakistani English writers
7. Getting published (and not critical acclaim or high sales) is currently the criteria for success
8. None of them can be considered a great writer on the international stage
9. One to three (depending on your preference) is a good writer, by international standards, with potential of being a great writer
10. Writing is a better profession than construction, for those raising newborns
11. Mohsin Hamid is a good writer
12. A Muslim writer (especially female) creating controversy around Islam, or writing about the suppressed Pakistani female (even if the author is rich) has the best shot at getting published in the West
13. Kamila Shamsie and Jhumpa Lahiri are pretty good looking
14. Jhumpa is a very funny spelling for a name
15. $5000 is too small an amount to be paid to a winner of the Pulitzer (average computer scientists can make that in ten days)

re MNIPhirsay and rsaxena,

Yes I need badaam. Lots of them. Thanks for correcting me. A wide variance as I suggested would imply a flatter distribution not a peak.

As for what`s wrong with creative writing majors? Simply that some majors are around only to allow little missy or junior to have a justification for spending papa or mama`s hard-earned money. Creative writing, art history, botany all fall in that category. These majors are there because the entrenched academic mafia will not allow them to be gotten rid of. BTW anyone want to take a guess to the number of female professors in creative writing faculties?

re harimau #78,

``I have always heard it said that all art is the output of tortured geniuses.``

Very true.

re shandana,

I understand where you are coming from. Most good writing comes when the author has a rich wealth of experiences. How many wothy authors do you think can come out of Grammar school->ivy league->papa`s import/export business? They can take all creative writing classes in the world, unless they have the imagination of Sinbad they`ll end up as Kamila Shamsies of this world.

In the west, people with privileged backgrounds get around that hurdle by writing about sex, nannies and their trips to Borneo. If first generation, they`ll delve into their ancestor`s past to hawk their wares. Writing well doesn`t automatically translate into a worthwhile read in contemporary literature as it used to in the Jane Eyre days.

re skept,

You should contribute more. We need more of the truth and less of the entitlement crap.

later
-sac

Ref sac #46

[Mohsin Hamid works for Mckinsey.....BTW not many people know this but his ex-gf had a lot to do with the success of his book. At least in some ways women are contributing to encouraging genius!]

I have always heard it said that all art is the output of tortured geniuses.

Are you implying anything about the contributions of the Ex-GF? (Grin)

Saminasha

~~You may have read Celan, Kabir and Neruda, but apparently you have not understood them~~

You have remarkable powers of perception and an ability to read other peoples minds, apparently. How do you know I have not understood them? Because I disagree with you therefore I do not possess the holy knowledge of which you are aware? Can you do Jedi mind tricks as well? Remarkable...

~~The problem on Chowk is that the nastiest critics here are no Dale Pecks- they criticize, but no one seems to have published a decent book or article... ~~

So let me get this straight...the common reading public are not allowed to have an opinion on matters of literature and art. Only those who have ``published a decent book or article`` have that prerogative? And presumably you too, the only source of all true knowledge and literary worth.

Now everything makes sense.

skept

~~moth smoke, however, apart from being a better work of fiction, is a very subtly treated political allegory~~

The novel was bookended with references to Dara Shikoh and Aurengzeb and of course the main characters are named after those Mughal figures...are you saying that Hamid was working out an allegory of the different streams of Islamic thought as represented in those figures from history...the liberal pluralistic strain of Dara Shikoh and the more totalitarian version of Aurengzeb? And then relating it to Pakistani society and the turn it has taken?

I agree with you that it is a better work of fiction that contains a nuanced vision of the world.

btw: did you actually understand Irvine Welsh? All that working class Scottish dialect? It drove me crazy...

:)

subcontinental past; he seems to be quite fond of it. moth smoke, however, apart from being a better work of fiction, is a very subtly treated political allegory. i wonder what he`ll be aiming at in his work(s) to come.

annie

re: Romair`s ramblings
I am not seriously interacting but i could not pass the following comment by our Chowk Marshal:
``I used to think all Indian college girls are very attractive, dance a lot and wear spandex. Now after meeting them, ....``.
So, Field Marshal Romair, how many Indian college girls have you met? What kind of job do you do anyway? I thought you are in Canada trying to start some IT firm in collaboration with Indians (at least that is what i remember). Now, do not tell me you are teaching English literature in a college in India!
Sridhar

...as far as i can tell, hamidm is the only decent writer the subcontinent has produced recently...much more entertaining than these whining lahiris and roys from india and the nobodys from pakistan...

re: t

ok, i`ve been saying good morning and all to you, but this is just corny and must stop - ``first a warm cyber hug... ``..it is doing nothing for your biker dude image...

re: sac

{Men on the other hand have a very sharp peak in the IQ distribution. Meaning there is a large variance in IQs of men. }

...nahi yaar, a very sharp peak in the distribution means all persons are centered around one IQ level - less variation...if it is wide, spread out distribution, then there is lots of variation....

PunjabiZulu,

You may have read Celan, Kabir and Neruda, but apparently you have not understood them. But if you really want to be honest, take two weeks and do nothing besides work, eat and sleep. No reading, internet, tv, mushairas, music, etc., and lets see what happens....

The problem on Chowk is that the nastiest critics here are no Dale Pecks- they criticize, but no one seems to have published a decent book or article...

Shandana,

Thanks for your perspective and def. hope to read more.

shandy:

first a warm cyber hug...

now some random thoughts..what else;)

nah...it is a long tunnel!...and contrary to popular myths there is no end...it is a mirage propelling one forward...and at some point one runs out of energy (gas, ideas, will) and sees light...told you already it is a mirage:)...a figment...a hope...

...need i tell you kiddo that book-selling is a team effort?...marketing endeavour...you scratch me back i scratch yours...if you are not upto it kiss it good bye...how many times we hear jhumpa`s ex-ex was that in there or the current ex is that colour working for them...and the pigment/trade connection helps...

helps?...yes, to a certain degree...the basic premise that cannot be over ruled is the inherent talent...no talent, no marketing one languishes...talent plus marketing propels...

...wink wink....mention the brothel in the story with the hookers named after the Last One`s wives...good for both businesses...

...do i like this approach?...no....but one must be cognizant of the game others play...no?...why do i feel this is becoming a long overdue reply to your mails;)...damn this box is too small for the eyes...more later...lve for beanoo and partner in crime....and yes another cyber hug with a welcome back...but you were never away sufficiently...

..t

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Romair:

If you like thrillers and would be interested in reading a pretty good Indian one, get hold of a copy of Bunker13 by Aniruddha Bahal. The twist in the tail will knock you off your seat.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374117306/qid=1068545208/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-6438559-1800866?v=glance&s=books


Saminasha

~~I`ve also seen writers who are appreciated in the rest of the world get lumps from the peanut gallery here-Shamsie`s theme sounds really interesting-and now I`m going to get her book~~

You are too presumptuous and reading too much into peoples motives for criticising her work. First of all read it yourself and then comment.


~~I also said Art was AS important AS basic necessities-it is one of them. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not read Paul Celan, Kabir or Neruda... ~~

I have read Celan, Kabir and Neruda and I still do not think that they are as important as clean water, food and shelter.

MNPhirsay;

Why are you wincing with embarassment? Dont be shy, express yourself.

Sac

Thanks for the information. Sounds interesting.

shandana

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavour to get published.

i so agree with you sac. :) i wonder why people are so resentful of criticism[or even condemnation :p] when it isn`t even about them. i`d refrain from commenting further on how I feel about Kamila Shamsie, Bapsi Sidhwa and whoever else.

annie

debated about whether to post on this board, have decided to after all. lots of misconceptions seem to be floating around about pakistani women writers.

i am a pakistani woman writer. i have never had a book published, but my essays and writing has been featured in most pakistani papers and magazines worth reading, and some that aren`t. this does not mean that i am not a writer, it simply means that i don`t fit the criteria for publishing. when i was younger, people encouraged me to go back to college and get a degree (i dropped out halfway because a)my father was very ill and b) i didn`t feel i was cut out for college education), but i chose to start working instead. i worked as a teacher for three years. i started out earning 4000 per month and teaching math and geography, when i quit i was earning just over 10,000 and teaching my first love, literature. i quit teaching because i wanted to devote all my time to writing. instead of heading for publishers abroad i wanted to get published by a local publishing house because i am pakistani and wanted to write for a pakistani audience. an editor at one publishing house read my work and offered me a project ghost writing someone else`s book. i declined. my ego was hurt. good enough to write someone else`s story but not good enough to write my own? another felt my work was `interesting` and thought about including it in an anthology. apparently, he is still thinking about it till this day. a third said i was as talented as jhumpa lahiri but just not ready. the job i quit to write full time seemed like a pleasant dream. with no other skills, apart from some writing ability, and an acute degree of social dislocation, i could find no other work. finally, i turned to working for a production house where i did concepts, scripting and produced programming and earned (on paper) around 20,000 rupees a month. i wrote for papers steadily for a while, but that stream of words became a trickle as more and more of my time and energy was spent making a living. tv production is time consuming, often superficial and a very bad paymaster because you paychecks come by one every four months instead of every month, depending on the advertiser. a little bit of regret began to creep in when i thought of my choices, why hadn`t i finished my degree and learnt to market myself? why hadn`t i gone the `opressed third world woman seeking western publishing benefactor` route often recommended by market savvy friends but rejected by self as `crap`? why had i let my belief in myself and my work interfere with my judgement?

clarity suggested the choice was between success and failure in terms of money rather than in terms of quality.

10 years after i first took a step down the word road, i have finally begun flipping through the thick writers guide to agents and publishers my sister sent me years ago. success in publishing has as much to do with being a marketable commodity as it does with writing talent. i am no longer interested in pakistani publishers. part of me is still not interested in publishing, but now that i`m a mother i dont have the time or the inclination to hold a day job and exhaust myself with things that dont really matter to me in the first place. i would love to survive on what i earn writing, for now it isn`t possible. but maybe one day, and if i ever do get published, my book will be dedicated to www.chowk.com. because.

i have recently started writing for papers again. only a few, but i am writing. now that i`ve passed through the tunnel of rejection and come out on the other side, i am again entranced by the magic and words and remember why i do what i do. and if the world doesn`t get it, so what.

if someone says to me you aren`t a writer because you`ve never had a book published, i shall poke them in the eye.

mohsin hamid is a good writer.

Saminasha #57: `re: construction work vs. nursing and caretaking an infant

I wouldnt presume that construction work is easier. Hope you post after your newborn :) And no ayahs allowed!``

Taking care of newborn is probably more difficult than construction work. But construction work + writing a book is probably more difficult than taking care of baby + writing a book.

Though I have never written a book, nor taken care of a baby. Nor have I ever been a construction worker.

As for the various comments on Shamsie bya various posters:

Obviously people will have different views. But from a critics` point of view (which is the one that counts), there are so many people who write books. Very few of them get published. And of the many which get published, a microscopic amount win, or become finalists for prominent international awards. And out of those finalists a small percentage are from non-native English writers.

Shamsie`s first two books achieved all of the above. And her third may get something also. All this before the age of 30. If that doesn`t make her a good writer (at least in the eyes of critics and in my opinion also), then people need to change the definition of, ``good writer.``

But she is not a great writer. But she still has a long way to go, and is young. And writers like wine, tend to get better with age. Unlike scientists, who like Coca-Cola show their most promise in the early days.

I would still say, out of all the South Asian authors I have read, other than Rushdie, I liked Mohsin Hamid the best. Maybe, because he wrote about a familiar city. Rushdie, I don`t liek as a person, due to the opportunist that he is. But literally speaking he is in a class of his own. Haven`t read much Naipaul yet, though. Though does he count as Indian. And isn`t his wife Pakistani?

But in Pakistan, Hamid and Shamsie are the only ones going places. Rest are very average. The fact that I am a Pakistani, may make my view biased. So they may even be below average. Some on Chowk could write as well, as this average crowd.

Re: sac:

Men on the other hand have a very sharp peak in the IQ distribution. Meaning there is a large variance in IQs of men. Explains a lot doesn`t it. Obviously being a `creative` writing major it will take you the whole day to figure out what it means and the rest of your life trying to debunk it. Good luck.


Sharp peak = large variance hahahahahahahaha

sac you`d do well to eat some baadaam yourself.

Why does everyone make fun of creative writing? What`s wrong with creative writing?

Re: PunjabiZulu:

I read Kartography and was deeply, profoundly, massively underwhelmed. She is a mediocre writer. The whole novel meandered aimlessly, and there were some sentences which made me wince with embarassment.

and I am wincing with embarassment right now.

Sac,

And so you represent the apparent drop in distribution? Or, as the joke goes, were out out for kulfi when She was handing out brains? :)

re PunjabiZulu,

I think he is working on something set in the subcontinental past. t seems to know more. As for the gf, she wasn`t a publisher but seemed to know a lot of folks in Manhattan. Mohsin used to be a very introverted guy but has blossomed out after his success...maybe loss of hair has something to do with it. Not sure.

t,

Thanks.

re saminaSha and her usual ride on the A train,

There is a study out there that likens the IQ distribution amongst females to be somewhat flat. Meaning the likelihood of finding crazies and correspondingly geniuses is smaller compared to men. Men on the other hand have a very sharp peak in the IQ distribution. Meaning there is a large variance in IQs of men. Explains a lot doesn`t it. Obviously being a `creative` writing major it will take you the whole day to figure out what it means and the rest of your life trying to debunk it. Good luck.

later
-sac

Romair,

Monica Ali.

re: construction work vs. nursing and caretaking an infant

I wouldnt presume that construction work is easier. Hope you post after your newborn :) And no ayahs allowed!

Punjabi,

Actually, if memory serves, there are very few on Chowk who have even deigned to address Lahiri and Ali. The rest are abcd potshots.

I`ve also seen writers who are appreciated in the rest of the world get lumps from the peanut gallery here-Shamsie`s theme sounds really interesting-and now I`m going to get her book.

I also said Art was AS important AS basic necessities-it is one of them. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not read Paul Celan, Kabir or Neruda...

Saminasha #44: ``Tom Clancy isnt really considered a great writer around here...also``

I don`t recall calling Tom Clancy a great writer. I just said he is a very successful one, and very wealthy. In that sense, in his own field, he is a great writer. Though in the literary crowd he is not. Just like, I love Star Wars, but the Oscar Academy does not. At the same time, Clancy outsells all the Booker award finalists combined, many times over. So he must be good at something.

Writing thrillers is extremely difficult. There are barely five to ten in the whole world, who regularly sell. And not one from South Asia. India has produced so many good novelists, yet it has produced no one who is even close to average in the Thriller field.

``I`m not so sure that these writers put their native countries on the literary map.``

Writers who write about their cities and countries definitely put them on the map. It doesn`t mean I will visit those countries, but at least I will be curious. Just like, after watching Indian movies, I used to think all Indian college girls are very attractive, dance a lot and wear spandex. Now after meeting them, I have realized most of this to be false. But at least, the movies did make me curious.

``You discount the famillies in which women also are breadwinners who write in their downtime. If men find this schedule tight, they should finally consider themselves part of the reality that most women in this world operate in. Both Lahiri and Ali wrote their books in between caring for their newborns...and isnt that a 24/7 job? ``

To the best of my knowledge, Lahiri is not a Pakistani. And who is Ali? Tariq Ali? Ahmad Ali? Ali McGraw? In the West, a lot of women maybe the main breadearner. But in Pakistan, 99% still aren`t. This may be right or wrong, but it is there.

I have never cared for a newborn, and have only vague memories of being one. But I would think writing would be the perfect profession for anyone raising a newborn. One could multi-task easier than with an office job. Roll the cradle into the computer room, and then type on the word processor, while keeping an eye on the baby. Not easy to do. But it seems much easier than being a construction worker and writing.

``I know....to each his/her own...but shouldnt these writers be cut some slack?``

One should never cut anyone any slack, if one wants them to be successful. One should provide a lot of encouragement and support. But never slack. Slack leads to mediocrity, and a false picture of one`s achievements.

Pakistan, in English literature, is comparitively furthur behind in the world arena than, say, it is in Punjabi movies, Urdu literature, pop music, singing, TV plays, sports (if one considers it an art form), debating, etc.

Out of curiosity I just did a google search on Pakistani writers and found some websites that might be of interest:

Shamshie:

http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/sawweb/sawnet/books/kamila_shamsie.html

Ghose:

http://www.centerforbookculture.org/interviews/interview_ghose.html

And I discovered this site about a film adaptation of Manto`s Toba Tek Singh has anybody seen this?

http://www.geocities.com/kenmcm_2000/pagepartition.htm#partition

Bapsi Sidhwa:

http://www.monsoonmag.com/interviews/i3inter_sidhwa.html

An article by Mohsin Hamid about Lahore:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/2003/journey/pakistan_lahore.html

Saminasha

~~We have no problem in lauding the works of male writers and policy makers who have come from upper middle class backgrounds, no matter how sheltered, sexist and narrow minded....but should writers in Pakistan come from the same class, they are hooted at and treated with a great deal of contempt. I find this quite hypocritical. Dont you?~~

I see nothing but praise for writers like Jhumpa Lahiri and Monica Ali on this website. Shamshie is being criticised for her mediocrity. I can detect no misogyny here. Maybe you are reading too much into things.

~~And YOUR comment of Art not being as essential as bread, shelter and rights is quite ill advised. Or are you of the strange opinion that humans operate in vacuum of biological survival?~~

As much as I love literature, art, music and cinema, I simply do not believe it is more important than clean water and medicine etc.

True artists will always flourish. If they can flourish in India they can in Pakistan.

Sac

Any more ideas about the novel that Hamid is working on? I am keen to read his new work it will be interesting to see how he progresses as a writer.

So his girlfriend was a publisher?

Punjab,

Well...I wasnt actually being sarcastic in the first part...the second part, yes, was quite sarcastic....but let me spell it out for you:

We have no problem in lauding the works of male writers and policy makers who have come from upper middle class backgrounds, no matter how sheltered, sexist and narrow minded....but should writers in Pakistan come from the same class, they are hooted at and treated with a great deal of contempt. I find this quite hypocritical. Dont you?

And YOUR comment of Art not being as essential as bread, shelter and rights is quite ill advised. Or are you of the strange opinion that humans operate in vacuum of biological survival?

Saminasha

~~Art is AS important as food, running, clean water and options~~

No it is not. That is a stupid statement.

~~I consider any writer from the Subcontinent a diaspora writer. Can you figure out why?~~

I asked you a question in good faith with the intention of engaging in a dialogue about what constitutes a diasporic writer and if it can be described as a ``scene``, about whether or not it is helpful to classify Indian and Pakistani writers together in this way, whether it might have the effect of swamping any nascent movement in Pakistani letters due to the inordinate amount of attention Indian writers gain in the west, or if that may be helpful to them, and you give me sarcasm. It made me feel quite sad, until I read this part of your next post:

~~And how is it that they are credited for setting down those great principles and foundations of the conservative western education while their latter day female counterparts are dismissed by the chorus in the pen? ~~

And I was rendered incapable with laughter.

sammi:

they should...

...why do you think i was being charitable;)

Sac,

Oh I see your point...Pakistan needs MORE writers like UpdikeMillerCrouchIrving... there is SUCH a shortage of snivelling males who dont know WHAT to do in in a more gender inclusive world...yes, I can see how you`d think that....

TBhai,

I know....to each his/her own...but shouldnt these writers be cut some slack?