Orissa: A Gujarat in the making

re: ballukhan # 137

That`s an astonishing post. You probably know more about Indian traditions than most so-called `Hindus.`

#123 by satyavadi on November 7, 2003 11:49am PT
jang #119::

jainism is one of the jewels of hinduism- very scientific- infact the best metaphysics of liberation I have ever studied in hindu philosophy.
Thier epistemology of Syadvada is a post modernist delight and encourages people to go beyond the absolute philosophies of semitic religions. There are many more things that even the jainis do ont know about their tradition that it is infact a philosophy of liberation and not a way of life. So you need not worry about the jaini Constitution in the Indian context. Non-violence is one of the major percepts of jainist metaphysics of liberation- hence we need not worry about jaini-jehadis unless someone tries to semitize it by setting such an agenda garbed in the semitic conspiracy theology.
I would encourage my fellow pakistanis to visit this site for a good introduction to jainism through this faq
http://www.jainuniversity.org/html/faq.asp

Jang

``so given the fact that they are the only true successfully continuous ancient tradition on the sub-continent, what should one conclude? define a tribe, dont fight, accumulate wealth for you and your future generations, cartel so the tribe members see strong benefits of not straying from the tribe, and dont believe in god...this spells great success. ``

Sorry I missed this hypothesis.....Great stuff.....also a lesson for the belligenernts in the sub-continent(their mistake- they missed all the fun of living in the same appartment block with 30 different families , 15 different languages and 7 different religions) ..............It would make a great topic for study- It would beat even Weber hands down.

So this commie chick showed up again? LOL!! Its funny, no one in India even listens to them. Might as well ignore her article.

# 134

Do not follow it if it does pass the test of your logic.

should be : Do not follow it if it does not pass the test of your logic.

#133 by Pankaj on November 8, 2003 11:26am PT

Pankaj aur dostmittar ji,

Namaskar

For the policy of tit-for-tat to work, you must offer a credible threat of implementing the policy. You can not implement the tit-for-tat policy if you do not have the internal strength and the determination to do so.

Therefore, tit-for-tat will work only when you have built up requisite internal strength and have sent out unambiguous signals about your determination to implement the policy.

Tit-for-tat policy is inherently non-aggressive. Hindus must not be aggressive. Yet, hindu culture can survive only if Hindus can, and are determined to, put into practice the tit-for-tat policy, if necessary, and signal their resolve to do so in terms that are as clear as the daylight.

Yet for Hindus, this shouldn`t be a matter only of elementary logical deduction. We must realize that this is our core religious duty. True Hinduism operates not only under the principle of knowledge, spirituality, and peace (the original domain of voluntary and temporary Brahmins), but also strength (the original domain of voluntary and temporary kshatriyas), supported by an underlying structure of economic and worldly success (the original domain of voluntary and termporary Vaishyas), and hard work, which to our utter shame, we came despise, as shudras. (as an aside, you can see what happens to a society that begins to despise its most productive, and hence the most important part).

Knowledge, peace, and spirituality - do not constitute Hinduism, only one quarter part of it. If we call ourselves Hindus, we should be willing to follow its wisdom, if it makes logical sense. Do not follow it if it does pass the test of your logic. In Hinduism, truly, there is no compulsion. Best regards.

Dost-Mittar #111

This is a universal paradox !!! To defend tolerance, you must be intolerant to intolerance. To preserve peace, you must be ready for war... To defend virtues(dharma) and save the society from wicked, you must resort to ``evil`` ways to combat evil... All the good things in life - virtues, cooperation, general well-being, prosperity etc. are vulnerable to wicked ways...

Advocating non-violence is a good thing but it leaves you vulnerable against a ruthless opponent. Buddhism made this mistake... Advocating excessive violence and ``martial`` ethos fatigues a society as this violence turns inwards and destroys the society that assiduosly cultivates it...

So what is the solution. The right strategy is tit for tat... be good to the goodness in the society and severe against the evildoers. This is a direct generalization of the game theory results of prisoner`s dilemma game. The purely benevolent strategy makes you excessively vulnerable and invites ``defectors(cheators)`` to take advantage of your benevolence. ``Cheat everybody`` policy ultimately causes cheators to cheat one another and precipitates self-destruction. It is tit for tat approach that wins the game, i.e., cooperate with the do-gooders and punish the defectors.

Ref PunjabiZulu #129

[Only karela juice is more bitter than a Marxist.]

Would that be:

a) a Marxist who is jailed, tortured and scheduled to be executed shortly by a Marxist regime for being a traitor?

b) a Marxist who has to accept the collapse of the Soviet Union?

c) a Marxist who has to contemplate the dramatic disparity in wealth in today`s China similar to what existed before the Marxists took power in 1949?

d) a Marxist who continues to shout ``Amar bari, tomar bari, Naxalbari`` as West Bengal slides into economic irrelevance a la Bihar while other Indian states continue their march forward?

;-)

There are two aspects to what the RSS/VHP type organizations are doing among the Hindus. One is the internal aspect. One is to try to bridge the caste divisions and try and reach out to the dalits to end the century old apartheid practised by the hindus. For this, they should not be faulted. After all, isn`t this what all reformists - Marxists and non-Marxists - have been demanding all the time? So, one cannot but applaud their efforts in that direction.

But there is another, external and less wholesome aspect to this movement. They are doing this to unite the Hindus against ``its enemies``, who may be Muslims in one place and christians in another area. This needs to be condemned in no uncertain terms. ``Hindus khatre mein`` is as dangerous a slogan as ``panth khatre mein`` or ``Islam khatre mein``.

Satyawadi:
``Might not be true for the middle ages... Jainism was atleast in competition with Hinduism``
Jaisalmer fort has a beautiful Jain temple, a replica of the famous Dilwara temple of Mount Abu, the most beautiful temple in India. The exterior of the temple has Hindu gods and goddesses and the interior Jain tirthankars and other Jain moortis. We were told that the Hindu raja of Jaisalmer allowed Jains to build the temple on the condition that the exterior has only Hindu sculptures.
Incidentally, I was much impressed by the cleaniness and the general upkeep of Jain temples. And unlike Hindu temples, we were not accosted by assorted pujaris-bhikaris (sometimes it is hard to tell the difference!) wanting you to give this dakshna or that daan.
BTW, isn`t the president of the VHP, Hari Dalmia, a Jain? And what about Ashok Shingal, the firebrand Ayodhya temple protagonist?

Satyavadi No123,

Thank you for writing such an informative post about Jains and Jainism. It was very enlightening to read.

Dost-Mittar

The Marxist views the world in Manichean terms. Of course only Marxists have a monopoly on being progressive. All the rest of us are non-Maxist capitalist potential fascists. (You could say we are non Marxist Kaffirs).

Only karela juice is more bitter than a Marxist.

Friends,

I support the person who said that it is better to discriminate against others than to discriminate among our own group. Hindus have been shooting themselves in the foot, no wonder they have been contantly shot and humiliated by others.

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An addition to my post #123:

The point I am making about the financial success of the Jains is that, their religion might have been just incidental to their success. What was more important was their position as the merchant/trading caste of their respective regions which they share with (other) Hindu castes such Agrawals, Vaishnav Vanias of Gujarat etc.

#123 by satyavadi
thanks satyavadi..i see your point that stereo-type is perhaps more reagional with some biradari flavor.... i have travelled much in india and have stayed in low-cost options when possible. G`dwaras are a good option, with a 3-day maximum, free langar, but food is not well cooked (partially cooked rotis made by other travelling karsevaks and pacharanga achar dominates). madrasis (tirupati trust run?) are good with food (well cooked, served hot, much rice), small charge, but they insist on a bath before they serve...in himalayan foothills, in certain weather this is a difficult challenge. jains dont let you in, however, there are very cheap all you can eat food available in home-type settings near dilwara temples..the lady keeps making hot phulkas and one can easily eat about 25 of these...

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jang #119::

Your description about Jains and their social norms/behaviors is pretty accurate. I wonder which part of India you are from and what is the level of interaction you have had with `them`.

``very tribal (try getting into as jain dharmashala``

This is true. Most Jain dharmashalas are pretty much exclusive to Jains. Apart from tribal considerations, the reason might be they don`t want these places, usually attached with a place of worship(Mandir) defiled by inappropriate behavior like meat-eating etc. I suppose the assumption is that Jains will be respectful of the restrictions whereas others might not be.

On the other hand the many charitable organizations, hospitals, schools etc built by Jain organizations are obviously open to every one...It is the social institutions that Jains are very `tribal` about. This might be because of living in a predominantly nonJain society.

[they love wealth accumulation, but dont display it]
Not true anymore. Like everyone else in India these days, ostentation has increased by leaps and bounds. And it is also determined by the ethnicity, Punjus vs Marus vs Gujjus. Punjus more ostentatious than Marus than Gujjus..

[in bussiness, they are very exclusionary with non-jains and cartel heavily esp. in trading. ]

True but the cartels are more caste like structures. For example, the diamond cutting, polishing and trading business in India is centered almost solely in Surat and Bombay... At both places it`s Palanpur(a district in North Gujarat bordering Rajasthan)Jains that dominate and almost totally control the business. The barrier to entry is very high even for other Jains in this business...

Such cartels I am sure also exist among other communities...One example that comes to mind is Agrawals of northern and central Rajasthan(some of whom - about 25% are Jains, rest are Vaishnavs), who tend to build pretty strong cartels themselves..

A lot of people attribute the Jains`s success to their religious philosophy and social norms. This might be true partially, but there is another angle to it.

Most businessmen Jains are from Gujarat, Rajasthan and Punjab. An interesting study to do would be to compare the success of Gujarati Jains with Gujarati Vaishnav Vanias(like Ambanis), Marwari Jains with Marwari Maheshwaris and Agrawals, Punjabi Jains with other Punjabi trading castes..If that is done, it might turn out that Jains have done no better or worse than other trading communities of their respective regions..

In fact Agrawals of northern Rajasthan (25% Jains, 75% Vaishnavs) are by far, IMO, the most financially successful caste group in India and the Maheshwaris (Bajaj, Birla) etc also haven`t done so far.. Similarly for Gujjus, Ambanis and Ketan Parekh are Vaishnavs, as opposed to Harshad Mehta (Jain)..

[and they really look down upon all meat eaters]

I would rephrase that to ``look down upon all kinds of meat eating``. As karuash pointed out, there are always exceptions..

[they have pretty much have had no conflicts with other communities over times]

Might not be true for the middle ages... Jainism was atleast in competition with Hinduism(after Buddhism got wiped out) all over Southern India.. It lost in TN, Andhra and Kerala.. The only presence in South India it has is in northern Karnataka and southern Maharashtra..
However there were probably no conflicts in Gujarat, Rajasthan and western MP, the regions where it still is fairly significant.

[so given the fact that they are the only true successfully continuous ancient tradition on the sub-continent, what should one conclude?]

This is actually true..Ever since Mahavir Swami`s times there has hardly been any change in the principles or practice of the religion, which by Indian standards is pretty remarkable.

[define a tribe, dont fight, accumulate wealth for you and your future generations, cartel so the tribe members see strong benefits of not straying from the tribe, and dont believe in god...this spells great success. ]

The ``dont believe in God`` is not laid out explicitly (after all Jains are not atheists in the Western sense) and many lay Jains will be surprised to know this.. However the emphasis is solely on Karma and Jains have had to include non-Tirthankar intermediary Gods(considered lesser and subservient to Tirthankars), some new and some common with Hindus, to satisfy the common people`s need for savior Gods.

--Satyavadi

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saminasha:
``I encourage you to set forth your understanding of Hindutva ideology. ``

Haven`t interacted with you in a long time!
I think it is not entirely pmishra`s fault if he does not understand hindutva ideology. And your ``progressive`` friends (do marxists have a monopoly on that word?:-)) also cannot fully comprehend it because it is such a nebulous concept. At its most benign, represented by Vajpayee, it is no more than a manifestation of cultural nationalism; at its most vicious, it is a fascist expression of intolerance for the ``other``. I myself uised to view it with benign neglect. However, it is hard to deny that in recent years the hard-edged hindutva is increasingly becoming more popular and poses a clear and present danger to the pluraslist traditions of India in general and hinduism in particular.

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Nice article on the NYTimes on the real challenges facing india and its democracy. Unlike the tr*sh inflicted on us by Angana and her chamchas, it provides a realistic picture.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/07/international/asia/07INDI.html?pagewanted=2&hp

Pardeshi Yadav, head of the Kayathpalli village council, recently found himself defending the birth of his last child: The government-provided condom he had used had failed, he said. This was not his fault.

++++

Saminasha: I am so glad you live in an area with a large number of mental health professionals. I suggest you seek counselling around the theme: Why do I feel free to pontificate on matters on which I have no knowledge or competence?

#111 dost-mittar
you touched upon other old religions with continuous traditions of ancient india. of these budhism is pretty much extinct so not much can be said from the present budhist. what is puzzling to me is the social behavior of the jains. they have very deep philosophy, yet they are hardly catholic in approach..very tribal (try getting into as jain dharmashala.. you can stay in a sikh g`dwara for free..no questions asked if you dont smoke). they seem to have gotten out of many professions such as agriculture, security (military), due to their extreme pacifism, and focused solely on bussiness. they love wealth accumulation, but dont display it (like the punjus). in bussiness, they are very exclusionary with non-jains and cartel heavily esp. in trading. and they really look down upon all meat eaters. they have pretty much have had no conflicts with other communities over times. clearly, they are very successful and generally respected in india with all the signs of future prosperity and success.

so given the fact that they are the only true successfully continuous ancient tradition on the sub-continent, what should one conclude? define a tribe, dont fight, accumulate wealth for you and your future generations, cartel so the tribe members see strong benefits of not straying from the tribe, and dont believe in god...this spells great success.

Pmishra,

Again, I am simply amazed at the switches and passes that comprise the conservative apologist mind. Here are some examples:

Socialist/communist: anti indian, anti democracy, totalitarian
Hindutva: religious liberation movement

The only thing you`ve exposed here is your prevarication...and its not very impressive.

I encourage you to set forth your understanding of Hindutva ideology. I am perfectly content in reading and accepting the scholarship of Roy and Co....and please, stay out of the tri state area....we do have the highest number of psych professionals per square mile...but then we have to learn to get along with each other as part of a democracy...its not like we can start a party that makes discrimination a religious mandate....

#114 kaurasch

First of all let me say that i agree that discrimination based on caste is a terrible thing. It originates from within ancient hindu culture and continues to be tolerated by many. It may not be worse that slavery (prevalent in Europe and America till 19th century and in Arabia till 1920s) but it is completely unacceptable today.

This is wrong and one of the greatest challenges in India.

However I disagree with your statement:

[quote]
I`ve seen Pakis and other muslims support Saddam and other muslims passionately against ``kafirs``.
[quote]

This is a terrible weakness in islamic culture. This is one reason why muslims are emerging as one of the most backward groups in the world.

#110 PunjabiZulu

Not just a fascist but a deeply ignorant person and one who seriously thinks that economic progress is possible without social amity. A person who thinks that you can spit on your neighbor and then live at peace in your home!!!

Sri Lanka is a sad counter-example. Because of Sinhala discrimination and inability to protect minorities in the past, that whole country is today beset by an extremist movement led by a unscrupulous mass murderer. So a beautiful country with a decent standard of living is stuck with a permanent civil war!

People like gujjubania seem to have no understanding of that. Do you want such a movement in India??? Do you have no understanding that Nehru`s inclusive social legacy has tamed 1000s of extremist leaders??? Do you not realize that in the North-East, Kashmir, Ladakh it is the broader inclusive indian political culture that has kept the union together.

Shekhar Gupta wrote a wonderful essay on the Naga movement not long ago. He wrote that in the midst of the terrible war that was going on there in the 60`s, some indian army officers (christians and others) came to worship at a Naga christian chapel. The Naga`s were stunned. They realized they were dealing with an inclusive culture in which difference was accepted and was multi-ethnic. So inspite of what their foreign advisors thought, they gradually changed their positions.

Similarly, you should be aware that a prominent Naga separatist leaders grandson led the charge up the Kargil mountains as an Indian army officer. Here is a report:

[quote]
Eight North-Easterners have so far lost their lives in the battle of Kargil. The death toll may go further up as both the battalions of Naga Regiment are now engaged in a fierce battle with the Pakistani intruders in Batalik and Drass sub-sector.

According to a latest report, at least 10 jawans of the Naga regiment have made supreme sacrifice while capturing the North Bump. Details of this battle are still awaited.

The North-Easterners, who have been killed in the ongoing battle so far are: Gunner Uddhab Das and Capt. Jintu Gogoi of Assam, Capt. Clifford Nongrum of Meghalaya, Lt. N. Kengurusie, Gangchung Konyak, Raikha Yimchunger of Nagaland and Kaleshwor Kom and Nicholas Moyon from Manipur.
[end-quote]

So try to grow up, gujjubania. There are indians of all backgrounds who have contributed much more than you ever will to our nation.

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#122 saminasha

I am sorry your ignorance was exposed by me in public. Writing a few sentences in confident english does not entitle you to pass judgement on this or that society or culture.

It would be quite similar to my advising you to seek mental health counselling or prescribe some psychiatric medication for you. Does that strike you as reasonable??

So, tell me, oh great hindutva expert: when was the VHP founded, where and for what declared reasons???

PMishra,

My ``inane prattle``? Or is it that the harrumping hanumans at Chowk expect every progressive post essays that are considered reasonable in most spheres of academia and somehow branded ``commie`` ad nauseum over here? Shukria Sahib, but I am not interested in playing your games.

If you are so interested in forwarding your Hindutva supporting agenda, do it and be done with it. You certainly dont need to set up this elaborate ruse to justify what is obvious to most honest people: India`s democracy has many problems that need to be addressed.

AnOrdinaryHindu:
``The first and the only place to start from is from within us, and ask what our fatal weaknesses have been. Caste system has definitely been one. We must do everything to eradicate this curse. We need to do that not only because it weakens our societies, but because it is inhuman to our own brothers and sisters. That is why I do not feel offended when you remind us of the truth: the problem of caste has not gone away. ``

Caste system is certainly a reason for many hindus leaving its fold. No doubt about it. But is this the only reason? I dont think so! Look at the history. Dont forget that Buddhism, which does not have a caste system, too, could not withstand the onslaught of people with sharper swords and a will to impose their faith on others (Nobody in those pre-p.c days bothered to dig out the odd tolerant verse in the holy book like ``there is no compulsion in religion!``). The conquests from the North West, starting with Alexander`s, started when Buddhism and Jainism took hold over India. Both these religions abhored violence. Moreover, both Buddha and Mahavir came from the Kshatriya class and many of their followers were also Kshatriyas; this led to the weakening of the defensive capability of the society since Kshatriyas were the warriors and responsible for defending the society from invaders. Even when the influence of Buddha waned, hinduism absorbed its non-violent philosophy to a large extent. It is quite possible that avoidance of meat eating is traceable to this influence, earlier hindu texts provide testimony to the fact that hindus, even brahmins, ate meat.
And this was true not only of India. Take the example of Tibetans. They were fierce fighters and at one time ruled over all of China and beyond. And then they accepted Buddhism and look what happened to them. Lucky for them that they did not have to face Islam. Buddhism transformed itself when it reached Changez Khan`s Mongolia and lost its non-violent edge (Changez Khan was a buddhist, believe it or not!). This transformed Buddhism reached China and from there to Korea and Japan and it is in this form that it has survived.

rsridhar to gujjubania:

~~You need to realise one thing guy. Those 120 million muslims are in India to stay. Do you want them to stay like brothers or do you want them to be your bitter enemies. The choice is with you and your il~~

Sir, he wants them on their knees, if not on their knees, then dead.

He then quotes economic performance indicators like a strutting thug wielding a rusty switchblade. He has no idea of the tolerant, peaceful, pluralist, cosmopolitan society founded on rational principles of education and equality of opportunity that lay the groundwork for wealth creation and prosperity.

He is an out and out fascist.

Gujjubania

~~So contrary to what our learned experts commented about how Gujarat was doomed because of the riots , Gujarat is doing as well as any state in India.~~

How well are the tens of thousands of Muslims in `refugee` camps doing? (imagine that! being a refugee in YOUR OWN LAND)

kaurasch & pmishra2

I think it was caused by a combination of BOTH of the things you describe. The INTERNAL and EXTERNAL.

This is what Hindus have to address.

re: kaurasach #103

``Hinduism is the only religion that shrunk in its original country. Only 60% of what was united India is Hindu. People were fed up with the religion - that is why droves went to Sikhism, Budhism, Jainism and many especially the lower castes went to Islam freely.``

You are right on both counts. Hinduism has shrunk. Hindus are the only people whose geographical core has been getting smaller and smaller over time. It is not beyond the real of possibility that Hinduism will completely disappear from India in a few centuries. Then the five thousand year old civilization - literature and philosophy, fine arts and festivals, of which we are so rightly proud - will vanish into thin air. Thank God, I am convinced, that at least Sikhism and Buddhism will survive, so much of the knowledge and wisdom of India will be preserved.

But while we can be thankful for Sikhism and Buddhism, Hindus need to ask themselves why history has treated them the way it has.

The first and the only place to start from is from within us, and ask what our fatal weaknesses have been. Caste system has definitely been one. We must do everything to eradicate this curse. We need to do that not only because it weakens our societies, but because it is inhuman to our own brothers and sisters. That is why I do not feel offended when you remind us of the truth: the problem of caste has not gone away.

Then there are many other reasons why Hindus have been constantly losing their lands. The time has come for us to understand why and take appropriate steps. In the history of a civilization as old as ours, a few centuries are not a very long period.

Action, says the Lord, is one of the cardinal principles in His Creation. The time has come for us to act, individually and collectively. The great advantage our religion offers is that it gives us the intellectual freedom and intellectual firepower to attain any goal we aim for.

Wishing you the best.

#103 kaurasch

You are right. These hindus are stupid people. If they had any brains, they punish conversion by death. That is what advanced and ``peaceful`` religions do. They would banish all other religions from India and murder every non-hindu. That is what a great ``peaceful`` religion did in Arabia, murdering and forcibly converting jews and christians. Now Arabia is truly pure, though they are some horrible shia`s left. Inshallah, soon they also may get purified.

Stupid, stupid hindus. Always looking for new ideas and criticizing themselves and accepting conversion and new religions. Silly morons !! Now if only the hindu`s followed the more advanced religion point of view. Here are a few of the advanced religion`s ideas:

Sura 9, verse 5 of the Koran reads, ``Then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them. And seize them, beleaguer them, And lie in wait for them, In every stratagem (of war).``

Koran Sura 5, verse 85, which speaks of enmity between Muslims and non-Muslims, reads: ``Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou Find the Jews and Pagans.``

But wait a minute: is this a religion or a murderous cult??? Is this a religous text or a hate manual? Maybe we need to petition the UN to have this bizarre cult declared a danger to humanity?

Hain, maybe the stupid moron hindus are not so bad. Maybe their open-mindedness to new ideas leads to reform and new religions and to progress. Maybe this is the natural order as opposed to fascist systems wherein people are to be killed if they choose a different path.

re: an article by Tavleen Singh
Here is a gentle reminder to those who are never tired of saying that India`s economy is booming (at times i have done that too!):
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=320605
Much remains to be done.
Sridhar

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Angana,

Your article reflects your opinions as opposed to the ground realities in orissa.
Remember that, tensions between converts and tribals is very high in orissa, not between upper castes and the rest as your article claims. This was evident during Staines`s murder too when the tribals supported dara singh and his gang. Thankfully law took its course in sentencing dara singh for the crime he commited. Its not like gujarat, where murderers were supported by the governemnt.
If our law permits missionaries to convert anyone than, VHP etc should not be held in contempt for doing the same. I don`t know why people like you cannot see reality and create fantastical one sided stories. Is it the product of our slightly biased curriculum in schools?
Would you care to tell us if there is caste discrimination practiced within christians and muslims in india too?
And lastly, everyone here will appreciate if you replied to some of the interactors` who have raised valid points. You seem to be good in just posting your opinions masked as facts and then performing the vanishing act.
Adios

re:#93 by Fosa
Do you even read my post? When did i defend Togadia, Modi etc.
BTW, Shourie, Advani are not the problem. They may hold some extreme views but that is permitted in a democracy. They certainly are not the Modi types.
Sridhar

re: post # 87

``I have said in my last article that RSS is not bad if it espouses violence.``
The above should read as: `` .....RSS is not bad if it gives up violence``.
Sridhar

re:#94 by gujjubania
As i said before, you have a lot to learn. For some nations, it takes centuries to reach a point where it can have a popular democracy and communal amity. India was handed down that on a platter by the greats like Nehru, Gandhi. Free market is not a new idea and BJP did not invent it either. So, do not go overboard about India`s economic developments. All that is accomplished will be brought to dust by a frenzied mob if there is no communal harmony. YOu need to go to a psychiatrist. I have not seen anyone so young with so much hatred.
Sridhar

re: Gujjubania`s comments

``I think money is the only thing that matters. For an individual as well for a nation.``
Will you sell your mother for money? After all you only said money is everything. Will you sell her if it means a little more money for you?
People who have no character do not understand what that word means. I think you are a screwed up young man in need of some serious help.
Sridhar

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#83 anOrdinaryHindu

Namaste to you too ! I am in 100% agreement with your sentiments. I only object when I see prejudice against hindus and hindu traditions masquerade as balanced criticism. We see it in Angana writings and in some of the respondents on this list.

I am happy to say that hindus are immense critics of their own tradition. I disagree with folks like gujjubania who claim that an unreasonable critic is an agent of the ``enemy``. That is wrong. An unreasonable critic is just that: unreasonable. We should call that out and move on. There is no need to see conspiracy where non exists.

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gujjubania:
`` I dont know if this is hard for you to believe - but EVERY non-Dalit boy or girl in India appearing for the engineering and medical entrance exams wishes that .``
This might be true. I have heard of upper caste people getting fraudulent certificates to prove that they belong to the disadvantaged groups. There are also white Americans who would like to be treated as blacks to benefit from the American affirmative action program. But how many of them would liked to have been born blacks. The same is true of the upper caste hindus in India. The fact that a creamy layer of the lower castes has developed, thanks to the positive discrimination in their favour, does not take away from the fact that a baby born as a dalit is likely to face much greater hardship than an upper caste baby.

`` But atleast where I come from , there are no problems. ``
If you are a proud Indian as you claim, you should be concerned about areas other than that where you come from. And I dont believe that there Gujarat is a heaven on earth!

re: #3 by who else but Gujjubania

``# Thank God for Nathuram Godse and RSS - Gandhi was planning to go on another of his fasts-unto-death , unless the newly independent India gifted Pakistan 33% of its treasury.

( By the way , we Gujjus excommunicated that Gandhi character long time back)``
Imagine your own mother and sister getting killed or worse still raped in front of you by a mob. Imagine your dear ones getting clubbed to death. If any of this come to pass (and i pray it does not), you will have more appreciation for Gandhi and his ideals. Gandhi is not for morons like you.
I have said in my last article that RSS is not bad if it espouses violence. You need to realise one thing guy. Those 120 million muslims are in India to stay. Do you want them to stay like brothers or do you want them to be your bitter enemies. The choice is with you and your ilk.
Sridhar

rsridhar

Please read all of my posts sir.

Thank you.

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re: How times have changed!
One needs to understand how this thing called ``Hindutva`` is gaining so much ascendance in India. I wish the author had thrown some light on that rather than just criticising BJP/Sangh parivar. 50 years ago, when Gandhiji was assasinated, RSS and its associates (Hindu Sabha etc) had to run for cover. India`s peaceful legacy is largely due to Gandhiji. If India is able to progress today, much of it is due to Gandhiji`s tireless dedication towards communal peace.
Gandhi was much revered then and even my generation has a lot of respect for him. It is perhaps sign of times that a sh!t head like Gujjubania from the state of Gujarat is able to insult Gandhi and get away with it. India calls Gandhi ``the father of nation``. Much of the world respect him for his ideals of peace and non-violence. Perhaps, Gujjubania trashes his own father the way he is trashing Gandhi. After all, home is where you get to practice what you learn.
The bigger question would be: why this transformation? It has a lot to do with character moulding. People like Gujjubania are told money is everything and rest is all non-sense and they believe in it. It is pretty scary. A nation with money but without a soul. A nation without a character. That is the way i see India heading.
Sridhar

#72 by pmishra2

Namaskar.

I agree entirely. The marvel of Hinduism is that it is not afraid of the truth. The path of Hinduism embraces its reformers. Its most celebrated thinkers are those that point in the direction of the true God. From Ram Mohun Roy to Gandhi to reformist Hindu Sects (Lingayats, Art of Living, Chinmayanda Foundation), Hinduism continues to produce great men and women whose message is a beacon of light not only to Hindus but to the anyone on earth wiling to listen.

Yet Hinduism tells us that the task of God on earth is never complete. There is no final message, no final prophet, no final solution. We human beings have no divine excuse to shirk our responsbility to think and to act to the best of our individual abilities.

Despite Ram Monun Roy, Gandhi, and many others (May They Rest in Eternal Peace), many Hindus continues to suffer from the burden of caste. That is our common challenge-yours and mine. Wouldn`t you say it is also our moral responsbility as the inheritors of the most ancient and glorious religious tradition alive today?

re:#39 by gujjubania
I have one question for this guy. What will happen to all that economic development (real and potential) that he has listed in his post if there is communal war in every state of India between hindus and muslims? That is what will happen if experiments of Gujarat are replicated all over India.
Sridhar

re:#54 by Ras
Ras,
Angana Chatterjee is not being honest. There is a reason for ``hindutva`` gaining ground in India. What it does to India, only time will tell. If Indians are able to moderate it and keep VHP, and other extremists at bay, it won`t be so bad. But the trend of ``hindutva`` has much to do with resurgence of Indian middle class as a powerful economic entity and its disillusionment with the policies of appeasment by former rulers. Angana has not gone into the genesis of the problem. To solve a problem, one needs to know why it happened in the first place. Like a true commie, she is just content with criticising BJP and Sangh Parivar. This article has nothing much to commend.
Sridhar

#57 nazarhayatkhan
``But an extremist religious fringe is present in all religions.``

vhp/b-dal etc are very much political groups and not religious. e.g., all or most religious rites (mariage, funeral etc.) has no connection to vhp/rss. neither are Tirupati priests or Banares pandas getting VHP seminary certificates. hindu religion, and its practice is still open competition, without any strong franchise operation. for example, when a new housing colony (or kutcha settlement) is built, someone puts up a temple, tends to be a local trust with bequests in the name of dead ancestors etc which funds the upkeep etc.
No major shrines in India have any vhp etc presence (their is a lot of politics and money involved, so incumbents wont allow it). no hindus believe that if they follow vhp, they will become better hindus and attain nirvana. so, i would call them a socio-political fringe group and not a religious fringe group. the naga sadhus will be more of a religious fringe.

Regarding the caste debate: the upper caste were told that due to their good karma they have achieved the exalted status of an upper caste birth. so lot of the yoursters felt good. however, they are discovering much to their astonishment that it is a meaningless pride. this definately causes much frustration.. their elders definately benefited from the specific biradari status in getting jobs etc (just look at old parsee banks, co-op banks for example). so in a generation or two, the lusture of an upper-caste birth will be lost. parents arranging marriages is a major problem in keeping some of the casteism alive... its time indian youngsters fully participated in darwinism and participated in the struggle of finding their mates. this will definately improve the gene-pool (more moral perhpaps?)

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re: this article
This article has the stamp of a ``commie`` stamped all over it. Why does the stupid author not talk about West Bengal. Its only claim to fame today is Mother Teresa. But the stupid author of this stupid article will not talk about problems closer home. She is worried about VHP and BJP when the bigger worry is what the Maoist rebels are upto in Nepal and now more recently in Bihar. BJP has enabled India to forge good economic growth though the process of liberalisation was itself started by Congress under Narasimha Rao.
Not even one sentence in this stupid article tells me that VHP/BJP is doing anything undesirable or that is doing India any harm. I am aware of the ``hindutva`` philosophy as espoused by Modi and his followers but is there any evidence that the same will happen in Orissa? I would like to reiterate here that India is secular mainly because it is ``hindu``. Becoming more ``hindu`` in India is not necessarily bad. Clashes will occur if that process is resisted by unfair means.

``In Orissa, the sangh parivar is targeting Christians, Adivasis, Muslims, Dalits and other marginalised peoples. The network divides its energies between charitable, political and recruitment work. It aims at men, women and youth through religious and popular
institutions. The sangh has set up various trusts in Orissa to enable fund raising, such as the Friends of Tribal Society, Samarpan Charitable Trust, Yasodha Sadan, and Odisha International Centre.``
What is so wrong about the above passage? What is wrong with doing charitable work? Or converting people? Christain missionaries have been doing the same for more than a century now. ``Sangh parivar is targetting...`` - what the hell does that mean? What is wrong with targetting?
``Grassroots democracy threatens upper-caste Hindu dominance and contradicts elite aspirations.``
This is Bull. I am no admirer of RSS but i cannot tolerate falsehood. RSS shakas try to bring all under one fold ``the hindutva fold``. For them, caste does not exist. I see not clash unless the Dalits, muslims see this gesture of RSS as against their interest. I have read stories of how RSS volunteers would invite muslims to send their children to RSS schools but muslim parents would turn it down for fear of indoctrination.

And then, there are these pearls scattered across the article like ``dog-poop``:

``There are 391 Shishu Mandir schools with 111,000 students in the state, preparing for future leadership. Training camps in Bhadrak and Berhampur aim at Adivasi youth. ``

``The Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad, an RSS inspired student body, functions in 299 colleges with 20,000 members. The Rashtriya Sevika Samiti, the RSS
women`s wing, has 80 centres. The Durga Vahini, with centres for women`s training and empowerment, has 7,000 outfits in 117 sites in Orissa. ``

``Development and education are key vehicles through which conscription into Hindu extremism is taking place. After the cyclone of 1999, relief work undertaken in a sectarian manner by RSS organizations granted the sangh a foothold through which to strengthen enrolment. Today, the Utkal Bipannya Sahayata Samiti works on disaster mitigation with facilities in 32 villages. The Dhayantari Shasthya Pratisthan manages four hospitals and six mobile centres. ``
Unless i am totally blind, i see this author grudgingly accept that some developmental activity has been going on. The purpose may not be to her liking but development is happening. The question to ask is : what the hell was Orissa doing under the secular ``Congres rule`` for so many years. Why is it still poor?

``Responding to Bal Thackeray`s call, over 100 young men and women signed up to fight `Islamic terrorism`. The Shiv Sena appealed to every Hindu family in the state to contribute to its cadre.``
Good. Someone is waking up to the menace of Islamic Terrorism, which BTW is a reality. All other allegations of this author belongs to fiction. Sure, there are problems here and there. Sure, after years of so called ``pseudo-secular`` rule of Congress, middle class India is saying ``we have had enough`` and are reasserting their identities. BJP and Sangh parivar`s popularity stems from this fact.
There is a lot more nonsense in this article. I am not a supporter of BJP or ``hindutva`` as espoused by Modi and his group. By i see nothing wrong in a religious group (a majority at that) reasserting itself and correcting a real or perceived threat from other communities. I would only protest if any of this is done violently.
Finally, i have come to the conclusion, after reading this article, that the Bengali brain is truly rotting. It does not see communism as a problem. When the whole communist world (including the founder of that philosophy, Russia) has been shedding that philosophy, West Bengal clings on to this stupidity. Let the author of this article talk about that instead.
Sridhar

re:#2 by PunjabiZulu
``India is fvcked``
No, only you are. In your brain department.
Sridhar

#48 gujjubania - people are dying the most gruesome deaths simply because of the religion they were born into - and you are hiding behind mere technicalities. Pls reread #42 again - the last part was meant for people like you.

re: Gujjubania`s post # 39
``India is expected to enjoy economic growth rates of 7-8 % from this financial year onwards - and should emerge as a top-3 world economy in no time at all. (Currently India is the world`s 4th biggest economy in terms of PPP GDP)``
A study conducted recently showed that India could potentially become one of the 3 largest economies by 2050. So, let us not go overboard here, shall we?
Sridhar

#60 - evasionary tactics 101 again!

``#50 by Fosa on November 5, 2003 6:27pm PT

#
Nichi Vichaar

I am getting inkling why Modi won big time.``

Fosa,

Last time. You are a muslim of extreme brand. Go and find solace in Mecca/Madina. No one wants you is separate problem.

Never ever dream that I will ever read your Post.

Geees. If we have mulsims like you..... Astin ka saap...

Tell me when you need milk and I will pass it on (to you know you).

Gujju and I could differ. But we are one. Indian. We are NOT human. We are Hindus you idiot. We were never human. Talk to ......

Vinashakale Kale vipareet. You never had something called as BUDDHI.

Ref yagacho #43

[however, you did not answer the question i put forwad. ``can a newly coverted hindu be a brahmin?``]

I answered in his place by saying that ``In Bali, the Balinese are divided into Brahmanas, Ksatriyas, Weseyas, and Sudras.`` (#36 by harimau on November 5, 2003 7:42am PT) Clearly, Hinduism permits converts to be designated as Brahmins. In Thailand, a mainly Buddhist country, the household shrine is always blessed by a Brahman priest whereas the bars in Patpong (the porn district!) are blessed on opening night by Buddhist monks. By the way, there are no Untouchables/Dalits among the Bali Hindus. There is no prohibition against marriage across caste lines either in Bali.

So Hinduism is what its followers make of it. That is why you see more and more of the ancient taboos being thrown away by Hindus as opposed to similar modernization by followers of The True Faith.

[it is nice that to your egalitarian mind caste does not matter but to majority of indian hindus it does. wonder how many brahmins in india will be willing to share a meal with a sudra....]

It depends on the context and the place. If I am performing funeral rites for a family member, I will not invite anyone other than family members to join the meal service. If it is a business lunch, then I do not care what the person`s caste is. If it is a wedding, then anything goes. After all, my drivers eat breakfast, lunch and dinner sitting in the same row with all invitees to the wedding.

#61 WhoEverYouAre

Every hindu reformer, from Ram Mohun Roy to Gandhi to reformist Hindu Sects (Lingayats, Art of Living, Chinmayanda Foundation) have dealt with the issue of caste among hindus. so I do not see an attitude of neglect towards this issue.

The challenge in India is how to realize the RULE OF LAW for its citizens. Caste-based discrimination, like color-based discrimination in the west, requires a certain level of education and policing. This is the real challenge we face in India. Let us not confuse this with bashing this or that community (``oh, look at these extremists muslims`` or ``oh, these horrible casteists brahmins``).

Ref Fosa #53

[``it is happening in China, in Pakistan in Timbuktoo so big deal if it happens in India. Atleast we have IT to sustain us. And ends in a chorus - we are the best we are the best.`

This pretty much sums up 100 gegabytes of wasted band width i have seen in5 years of NOSENSE on Chowk over represented anti muslim posts ..

Gymno Alephnul Jay HaraiMOU evenShankar ,Misra Guju Bania ,whole blody lemlin lne of thinking .....Thanks IXNO ]

Hydra, I do point out that leftists and Pakistanis have one standard for China and another for India when it comes to things like rights of minorities, deforestation, building dams, development, etc.

On the other hand, I consistently refer to the IT folks as code coolies. So don`t lump me together with Gymno, Alephnull, Mishra, Gujjubania, Shankar the Headshrinker and Jay. Though I must admit that I have a soft corner for Jay.

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Yagcho 28

``a question is ``when sanghis attain their ultimate goal:converting a individual to hinduism, then what is the caste assigned to the new hindu? can he/she be a brahmin? ``

Unless something has changed recently, from a legal point of view new hindu convert will be an ``Arysamaji`` by caste and has no benefits per the Nth schedule of the constitution.

This is because in the hindu scriptures there is no ritual how to convert one to a hindu, simply because there were no on-hindus at those times. Some time in the early 1900s, there was a need as some budhists wanted to become hindus. So some one created a ceremony for conversion, and as this was invented by the arayasamaj organisations, the new hindus are called aryasamajis.

Of course one has to remeber that there are christians and budhists who have converted to these religions from lower caste reatain the previlages in kerala because they agitated for it and govt delared them backward caste christians and budhists. That says something about hindu inclusiveness.

Nazarhayatkhan

~~But its presence in India must be recognized - and this the first step towards curbing it. That is precisely the intent of Agana.
Hinduism has liberal, fuzzy and tolerant concepts - some things that I like. This liberal ethos of Hinduism should not be hijacked by a few - and at present, it is no where close to that stage of a criticle mass - an impression that a general reader might get from this article.~~

Sir, I would endorse your above words.

There is a central dichotomy in the countervailing forces that are inherent within Indian society at the moment. The Hindutvadis and the adjacent intolerance and narrowing down of India`s plurality and secular institutions is inimical to the vision that has become paramount in the last decade and a half across virtually the whole of India`s educated class, a vision of India as a major economy creating wealth and competing at all levels in the globalised system. Where signs of this have been strong, like the high tech economies of the south, has been in areas in which the traditional strengths of the Indian model have been allowed free reign: tolerance, scientific education, non ideological atmosphere of plurality, acceptance of diversity, where Hindus, Christians, Muslims and Sikhs contribute on the basis of talent and achievement. (These are all relative of course....Even these sectors of India are by no means California or London yet)

Hindutvaism will wipe this out. And the middle classes will have to introspect that the progress that is being made by India will be threatened by this ideology. There will have to be a reckoning between the two. You cannot have a genuinely vibrant capitalist economy in a society devoid of cosmopolitanism and diversity, tolerance and individualist freedoms. The society stagnates in such a situation. That is all that the extreme right religious nationalists offer.

That is why capitalists like me do not agree with certain aspects of Ms Chaterjees proposition, especially when she castigates the capitalist model, which has taken more Indians out of poverty in the last decde than Marxism did in forty years. She definitely deserves to be thanked for keeping us vigilant in the light of the darkness within that threatens us. But I cannot agree with aspects of her Marxist views.

I do not know what rationality, faith taught you. I am inclined to put uou in the same league as #58 and #35.

Misraji

Yagacho has a point. Hindus must come to terms with the issue of caste.

The problem of caste is not insurmountable for Hinduism: no problem can be insurmountable for a religion as glorious and as ancient as this one. Yet Hindu intellectuals will need to make some concerted efforts beyond the legal ones we courageously took in 1947.

dost-mittar No.59

~~Do you remember how some dalits in Haryana were lynched in front of the police station because someone spread the false rumour that they had skinned a cow? And do you remember that a VHP leader said that the cow was more important than the lives of those killed?~~

I believe that a post-mortem was carried out on the corpse of the cow, to establish the cause of death, but not on the bodies of the lynched Dalits.

Welcome to India!

For you comments you need to be dumped with #35 and #39

#55 yagacho

AS my messages have repeatedly explained, you can choose to be any ``caste`` you like. My messages have also explained that there is no such concept in Indian tradition and given a lot of detail on the actual reality of varna and jati notions. But that wasn;t your real point was it???

Here are some parts of your message, that I consider spiteful and ignorant:

[quote]
thanks for your offer to join the ``santana dharma`` but frankly speaking, monkey and cow gods dont interest me a lot so i think i would rather not convert to hinduism.
[end-quote]

An equivalent would be my pretending to be interested in details of Islam (``Do all kaffirs really have to be killed?``) and then explaining that as Mohammed was a pedarast and a war lord, I am not interested in Islam.

And finally, to play your game all the way, to pretend that I am interested in sincere dialog !!!

Yup, that qualifies as spiteful and ignorant in my book and for many others as well....

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A number of commentators want us to deal with Angana`s ``facts`` and resent the idea that we should also focus on WHO she is and what ideology she represents. Just to put the shoe on the other foot, here I reproduce an article by Daniel Pipes on Militant Islam.

Like Angana, Daniel Pipes is also somewhat over the top and generalizes very broadly and often incorrectly. I do not think that even one interactor would accept this article as published. People would correctly focus on his personality and history BEFORE entering into the details of his ``facts``.

SUMMARY: We should NOT depend on opinions of extremists when criticizing extremism.

---

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/77

he Danger Within: Militant Islam in America
by Daniel Pipes
Commentary
In the aftermath of the violence on September 11, American politicians from George W. Bush on down have tripped over themselves to affirm that the vast majority of Muslims living in the United States are just ordinary people. Here is how the President put it during a visit to a mosque on September 17: ``America counts millions of Muslims among our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads.`` Two days later, he added that ``there are millions of good Americans who practice the Muslim faith who love their country as much as I love the country, who salute the flag as strongly as I salute the flag.``

These soothing words, echoed and amplified by many columnists and editorial writers, were obviously appropriate at a moment of high national tension and amid reports of mounting bias against Muslims living in the United States. And it is certainly true that the number of militant Islamic operatives with plans to carry out terrorist attacks on the United States is statistically tiny. But the situation is more complex than the President would have it.

The Muslim population in this country is not like any other group, for it includes within it a substantial body of people—many times more numerous than the agents of Osama bin Ladin—who share with the suicide hijackers a hatred of the United States and the desire, ultimately, to transform it into a nation living under the strictures of militant Islam. Although not responsible for the atrocities in September, they harbor designs for this country that warrant urgent and serious attention.

In June 1991, Siraj Wahaj, a black convert to Islam and the recipient of some of the American Muslim community`s highest honors, had the privilege of becoming the first Muslim to deliver the daily prayer in the U.S. House of Representatives. On that occasion he recited from the Qur`an and appealed to the Almighty to guide American leaders ``and grant them righteousness and wisdom.``

A little over a year later, addressing an audience of New Jersey Muslims, the same Wahaj articulated a rather different vision from his mild and moderate invocation in the House. If only Muslims were more clever politically, he told his New Jersey listeners, they could take over the United States and replace its constitutional government with a caliphate. ``If we were united and strong, we`d elect our own emir [leader] and give allegiance to him. . . . [T]ake my word, if 6-8 million Muslims unite in America, the country will come to us.`` In 1995, Wahaj served as a character witness for Omar Abdel Rahman in the trial that found that blind sheikh guilty of conspiracy to overthrow the government of the United States. More alarming still, the U.S. attorney for New York listed Wahaj as one of the ``unindicted persons who may be alleged as co-conspirators`` in the sheikh`s case.

The disparity between Wahaj`s good citizenship in the House and his militant forecast of a Muslim takeover—not to mention his association with violent felons—is only one example of a larger pattern common to the American Muslim scene. Another example, about which I have written recently elsewhere, involves the American Muslims for Jeru­salem, an organization whose official advocacy of ``a Jerusalem that symbolizes religious tolerance and dialogue`` contrasts markedly with the wild conspiracy-mongering and crude anti-Jewish rhetoric in which its spokesmen indulge at closed events.1 At a minimum, then, anyone who would understand the real views of American Muslims must delve deeper than the surface of their public statements.

Doing so, one discovers that the ambition to take over the United States is hardly a new one. The first missionaries for militant Islam, or Islamism, who arrived here from abroad in the 1920`s, unblushingly declared, ``Our plan is, we are going to conquer America.`` The audacity of such statements hardly went unnoticed at the time, including by Christians who cherished their own missionizing hopes. As a 1922 newspaper commentary put it:

To the millions of American Christians who have so long looked eagerly forward to the time the cross shall be supreme in every land and the people of the whole world shall have become the followers of Christ, the plan to win this continent to the path of the ``infidel Turk`` will seem a thing unbelievable. But there is no doubt about its being pressed with all the fanatical zeal for which the Mohammedans are noted.

But it is in recent decades, as the Muslim population in the country has increased significantly in size, social standing, and influence, and as Islamism has made its presence widely felt on the international scene, that this ``fanatical zeal`` has truly come into its own. A catalyzing figure in the story is the late Ismail Al-Faruqi, a Palestinian immigrant who founded the International Institute of Islamic Thought and taught for many years at Temple University in Philadelphia. Rightly called ``a pioneer in the development of Islamic studies in America,`` he was also the first contemporary theorist of a United States made Muslim. ``Nothing could be greater,`` Al-Faruqi wrote in the early 1980`s, ``than this youthful, vigorous, and rich continent [of North America] turning away from its past evil and marching forward under the banner of Allahu Akbar [God is great].``

Al-Faruqi`s hopes are today widely shared among educated Muslim leaders. Zaid Shakir, formerly the Muslim chaplain at Yale University, has stated that Muslims cannot accept the legitimacy of the American secular system, which ``is against the orders and ordainments of Allah.`` To the contrary, ``The orientation of the Qur`an pushes us in the exact opposite direction.`` To Ahmad Nawfal, a leader of the Jordanian Muslim Brethren who speaks frequently at American Muslim rallies, the United States has ``no thought, no values, and no ideals``; if militant Muslims ``stand up, with the ideology that we possess, it will be very easy for us to preside over this world.`` Masudul Alam Choudhury, a Canadian professor of business, writes matter-of-factly and enthusiastically about the ``Islamization agenda in North America.``

For a fuller exposition of this outlook, one can do no better than to turn to a 1989 book by Shamim A. Siddiqi, an influential commentator on American Muslim issues. Cryptically titled Methodology of Dawah Ilallah in American Perspective (more idiomatically rendered as ``The Need to Convert Americans to Islam``), this 168-page study, published in Brooklyn, remains largely unavailable to general readers (neither amazon.com nor bookfinder.com listed it over a period of months) but is widely posted on Islamist websites,2 where it enjoys a faithful readership. In it, in prose that makes up in intensity and vividness for what it lacks in sophistication and polish, Siddiqi lays out both a detailed rationale and a concrete plan for Islamists to take over the United States and establish ``Islamic rule`` (iqamat ad-din).

Why America? In Siddiqi`s judgment, the need to assume control here is even more pressing than the need to sustain the revolution of the mullahs in Iran or to destroy Israel, for doing so will have a much greater positive impact on the future of Islam. America is central not for the reasons one might expect—its large population, its wealth, or the cultural influence it wields around the world—but on three other grounds.

The first has to do with Washington`s role as the premier enemy of Islamism (or, possibly, of Islam itself). In Siddiqi`s colorful language, whenever and wherever Muslims have moved toward establishing an Islamic state, the ``treacherous hands of the secular West are always there . . . to bring about [their] defeat.`` Nor are Muslim rulers of any help, for they are ``all in the pockets of the Western powers.`` If, therefore, Islam is ever going to attain its rightful place of dominance in the world, the ``ideology of Islam [must] prevail over the mental horizon of the American people.`` The entire future of the Muslim world, Siddiqi concludes, ``depends on how soon the Muslims of America are able to build up their own indigenous movement.``

Secondly, America is central because establishing Islamism here would signal its final triumph over its only rival, that bundle of Christianity and liberalism which constitutes contemporary Western civilization. (One cannot help noting the irony that Siddiqi`s tract appeared in the same year, 1989, as Francis Fukuyama`s famous article speculating that, with the collapse of Communism and the apparent triumph of liberal democracy, we had begun to approach the ``end of history.``) And thirdly, and still more grandly, the infusion of the United States with Islamism would make for so powerful a combination of material success and spiritual truth that the establishment of ``God`s Kingdom`` on earth would no longer be ``a distant dream.``

But this dream will not happen by itself. To American Muslims, writes Siddiqi, falls the paramount responsibility of bringing Islam to power in their country; and to this goal, Muslims must devote ``all of their energies, talents, and resources.`` For this is how they will be assessed on judgment day: ``Every Muslim living in the West will stand in the witness box in the mightiest court of Allah . . . in Akhirah [the last day] and give evidence that he fulfilled his responsibility, . . . that he left no stone unturned to bring the message of the Qur`an to every nook and corner of the country.``

How this desired end is to be achieved is a question on which opinions differ in Siddiqi`s world. Basically, the disagreement centers on the role of violence.

As has been made irrefutably clear in recent weeks, there are indeed some, not just abroad but living among us, who see the United States as (in the phrase of Osama bin Ladin) an ``enemy of Islam`` that must be brought to its knees and destroyed. In its broad outlines, this judgment came to be solidified during the crisis over Iraq`s seizure of Kuwait in the early 1990`s, when militants like bin Ladin discerned a historic parallel between the presence of American troops on the soil of Saudi Arabia and the brutal Soviet occupation of Afghan­istan in the 1980`s. In their dialectical view, as the New Yorker writer Mary Ann Weaver has explained, the United States, just like the Soviet Union before it, represented ``an infidel occupation force propping up a corrupt, repressive, and un-Islamic government.`` And just as the Islamist mujahideen in Afghanistan had succeeded in defeating and driving out their occupiers, and thereby played a role in the collapse of the mighty Soviet Union itself, so Islamists might cause the collapse of the United States: one down, one to go, as it were.

To the blind sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, who after bin Laden is perhaps today`s most notorious enemy of the United States, bombing the World Trade Center in 1993 was part and parcel of this revolutionary strategy to ``conquer the land of the infidels`` by force. The idea, as one of his followers put it, was to ``bring down their highest buildings and the mighty constructions they are so proud of, in order thoroughly to demoralize them.`` 3 And this was a duty that Islamists saw as incumbent on all Muslims; having helped humiliate the Soviets in Afghanistan, they now, as one native-born American convert to Islam proclaimed in July 1989, must ``complete the march of jihad until we reach America and liberate her.``

But there are several problems with the approach of revolutionary violence, even from the perspective of those who share its goal. The most obvious has to do with its impact on American society. Although attacks like the 1993 bombing or the suicide massacres of September 11 are intended to demoralize the American people, prompt civil unrest, and weaken the country politically, what they do instead is to bring Americans together in patriotism and purpose. Those who mastermind them, in the meantime, are often caught: Abdel Rahman is sitting out a life sentence in a federal penitentiary, his campaign of violence stillborn, while Osama bin Ladin is the object of a massive manhunt to get him ``dead or alive.`` Unlike in the very different case of the Soviet Union, it is very hard to see how the use of force will succeed in wearing down this country, much less lead to a change in government.

Besides, as a number of commentators have recently pointed out, in targeting all Americans the perpetrators of Islamic violence do not bother even to discriminate between non-Muslim and Muslim victims. According to preliminary estimates, several hundred Muslims died in the collapse of the World Trade Center. This is not exactly calculated to enlist the participation of most resident Muslims in a campaign of violent insurrection. 4

For all these reasons, the non-violent way would seem to have a brighter future, and it is in fact the approach adopted by most Islamists. Not only is it legal, but it allows its enthusiasts to adopt a seemingly benign view of the United States, a country they mean to rescue rather than to destroy, and it dictates a strategy of working with Americans rather than against them. As a teacher at an Islamic school in Jersey City, near New York, explains, the ``short-term goal is to introduce Islam. In the long term, we must save American society.`` Step by step, writes a Pakistan-born professor of economics, by offering ``an alternative model`` to Americans, Muslims can transform what Ismail Al-Faruqi referred to as ``the unfortunate realities of North America`` into something acceptable in God`s eyes.

Practically speaking, there are two main prongs to the non-violent strategy. The first involves radically increasing the number of American Muslims, a project that on the face of it would not seem very promising. Islam, after all, is still an exotic growth in the United States, its adherents representing just 1 to 2 percent of the population and with exceedingly dim prospects of becoming anything like a majority. Islamists are not so unrealistic as to think that these numbers can be substantially altered any time soon by large-scale immigration (which is politically unfeasible and might anyway provoke a backlash) or by normal rates of reproduction. Hence they focus most of their efforts on conversion.

They do so not only as a matter of expediency but on principle. For Islamists, converting Americans is the central purpose of Muslim existence in the United States, the only possible justification for Muslims to live in a