Orissa: A Gujarat in the making

re: ballukhan # 137

That`s an astonishing post. You probably know more about Indian traditions than most so-called `Hindus.`

#123 by satyavadi on November 7, 2003 11:49am PT
jang #119::

jainism is one of the jewels of hinduism- very scientific- infact the best metaphysics of liberation I have ever studied in hindu philosophy.
Thier epistemology of Syadvada is a post modernist delight and encourages people to go beyond the absolute philosophies of semitic religions. There are many more things that even the jainis do ont know about their tradition that it is infact a philosophy of liberation and not a way of life. So you need not worry about the jaini Constitution in the Indian context. Non-violence is one of the major percepts of jainist metaphysics of liberation- hence we need not worry about jaini-jehadis unless someone tries to semitize it by setting such an agenda garbed in the semitic conspiracy theology.
I would encourage my fellow pakistanis to visit this site for a good introduction to jainism through this faq
http://www.jainuniversity.org/html/faq.asp

Jang

``so given the fact that they are the only true successfully continuous ancient tradition on the sub-continent, what should one conclude? define a tribe, dont fight, accumulate wealth for you and your future generations, cartel so the tribe members see strong benefits of not straying from the tribe, and dont believe in god...this spells great success. ``

Sorry I missed this hypothesis.....Great stuff.....also a lesson for the belligenernts in the sub-continent(their mistake- they missed all the fun of living in the same appartment block with 30 different families , 15 different languages and 7 different religions) ..............It would make a great topic for study- It would beat even Weber hands down.

So this commie chick showed up again? LOL!! Its funny, no one in India even listens to them. Might as well ignore her article.

# 134

Do not follow it if it does pass the test of your logic.

should be : Do not follow it if it does not pass the test of your logic.

#133 by Pankaj on November 8, 2003 11:26am PT

Pankaj aur dostmittar ji,

Namaskar

For the policy of tit-for-tat to work, you must offer a credible threat of implementing the policy. You can not implement the tit-for-tat policy if you do not have the internal strength and the determination to do so.

Therefore, tit-for-tat will work only when you have built up requisite internal strength and have sent out unambiguous signals about your determination to implement the policy.

Tit-for-tat policy is inherently non-aggressive. Hindus must not be aggressive. Yet, hindu culture can survive only if Hindus can, and are determined to, put into practice the tit-for-tat policy, if necessary, and signal their resolve to do so in terms that are as clear as the daylight.

Yet for Hindus, this shouldn`t be a matter only of elementary logical deduction. We must realize that this is our core religious duty. True Hinduism operates not only under the principle of knowledge, spirituality, and peace (the original domain of voluntary and temporary Brahmins), but also strength (the original domain of voluntary and temporary kshatriyas), supported by an underlying structure of economic and worldly success (the original domain of voluntary and termporary Vaishyas), and hard work, which to our utter shame, we came despise, as shudras. (as an aside, you can see what happens to a society that begins to despise its most productive, and hence the most important part).

Knowledge, peace, and spirituality - do not constitute Hinduism, only one quarter part of it. If we call ourselves Hindus, we should be willing to follow its wisdom, if it makes logical sense. Do not follow it if it does pass the test of your logic. In Hinduism, truly, there is no compulsion. Best regards.

Dost-Mittar #111

This is a universal paradox !!! To defend tolerance, you must be intolerant to intolerance. To preserve peace, you must be ready for war... To defend virtues(dharma) and save the society from wicked, you must resort to ``evil`` ways to combat evil... All the good things in life - virtues, cooperation, general well-being, prosperity etc. are vulnerable to wicked ways...

Advocating non-violence is a good thing but it leaves you vulnerable against a ruthless opponent. Buddhism made this mistake... Advocating excessive violence and ``martial`` ethos fatigues a society as this violence turns inwards and destroys the society that assiduosly cultivates it...

So what is the solution. The right strategy is tit for tat... be good to the goodness in the society and severe against the evildoers. This is a direct generalization of the game theory results of prisoner`s dilemma game. The purely benevolent strategy makes you excessively vulnerable and invites ``defectors(cheators)`` to take advantage of your benevolence. ``Cheat everybody`` policy ultimately causes cheators to cheat one another and precipitates self-destruction. It is tit for tat approach that wins the game, i.e., cooperate with the do-gooders and punish the defectors.

Ref PunjabiZulu #129

[Only karela juice is more bitter than a Marxist.]

Would that be:

a) a Marxist who is jailed, tortured and scheduled to be executed shortly by a Marxist regime for being a traitor?

b) a Marxist who has to accept the collapse of the Soviet Union?

c) a Marxist who has to contemplate the dramatic disparity in wealth in today`s China similar to what existed before the Marxists took power in 1949?

d) a Marxist who continues to shout ``Amar bari, tomar bari, Naxalbari`` as West Bengal slides into economic irrelevance a la Bihar while other Indian states continue their march forward?

;-)

There are two aspects to what the RSS/VHP type organizations are doing among the Hindus. One is the internal aspect. One is to try to bridge the caste divisions and try and reach out to the dalits to end the century old apartheid practised by the hindus. For this, they should not be faulted. After all, isn`t this what all reformists - Marxists and non-Marxists - have been demanding all the time? So, one cannot but applaud their efforts in that direction.

But there is another, external and less wholesome aspect to this movement. They are doing this to unite the Hindus against ``its enemies``, who may be Muslims in one place and christians in another area. This needs to be condemned in no uncertain terms. ``Hindus khatre mein`` is as dangerous a slogan as ``panth khatre mein`` or ``Islam khatre mein``.

Satyawadi:
``Might not be true for the middle ages... Jainism was atleast in competition with Hinduism``
Jaisalmer fort has a beautiful Jain temple, a replica of the famous Dilwara temple of Mount Abu, the most beautiful temple in India. The exterior of the temple has Hindu gods and goddesses and the interior Jain tirthankars and other Jain moortis. We were told that the Hindu raja of Jaisalmer allowed Jains to build the temple on the condition that the exterior has only Hindu sculptures.
Incidentally, I was much impressed by the cleaniness and the general upkeep of Jain temples. And unlike Hindu temples, we were not accosted by assorted pujaris-bhikaris (sometimes it is hard to tell the difference!) wanting you to give this dakshna or that daan.
BTW, isn`t the president of the VHP, Hari Dalmia, a Jain? And what about Ashok Shingal, the firebrand Ayodhya temple protagonist?

Satyavadi No123,

Thank you for writing such an informative post about Jains and Jainism. It was very enlightening to read.

Dost-Mittar

The Marxist views the world in Manichean terms. Of course only Marxists have a monopoly on being progressive. All the rest of us are non-Maxist capitalist potential fascists. (You could say we are non Marxist Kaffirs).

Only karela juice is more bitter than a Marxist.

Friends,

I support the person who said that it is better to discriminate against others than to discriminate among our own group. Hindus have been shooting themselves in the foot, no wonder they have been contantly shot and humiliated by others.

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An addition to my post #123:

The point I am making about the financial success of the Jains is that, their religion might have been just incidental to their success. What was more important was their position as the merchant/trading caste of their respective regions which they share with (other) Hindu castes such Agrawals, Vaishnav Vanias of Gujarat etc.

#123 by satyavadi
thanks satyavadi..i see your point that stereo-type is perhaps more reagional with some biradari flavor.... i have travelled much in india and have stayed in low-cost options when possible. G`dwaras are a good option, with a 3-day maximum, free langar, but food is not well cooked (partially cooked rotis made by other travelling karsevaks and pacharanga achar dominates). madrasis (tirupati trust run?) are good with food (well cooked, served hot, much rice), small charge, but they insist on a bath before they serve...in himalayan foothills, in certain weather this is a difficult challenge. jains dont let you in, however, there are very cheap all you can eat food available in home-type settings near dilwara temples..the lady keeps making hot phulkas and one can easily eat about 25 of these...

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