Resistance is the first step towards Iraqi independence

ahmedmadani #111
I recently heard the Pakistani minister Sheikh Rashid say that ``the State Bank report on poverty increase ( from 20% to 33% ) talks only of the years when politicians were in power not the four years of Musharraf rule. If politicians impoverished the country, how can Musharraf be blamed for this.``

If you do a simple google search, you will find this Dawn report which shows the simple reason why he could make such a statement is because apparently poverty data was not collected after 2001.
http://www.dawn.com/2003/11/06/top6.htm

``The statistics division had reportedly stopped compiling poverty data after 2001 when faced resistance from the higher officials. The sources said no survey was conducted by the statistics division in 2002 and 2003 to measure poverty-related indicators. ``

So while Musharraf told the US on multiple occasions since 2001 to help Pakistan fight one of the ``root causes`` of terrorism ie poverty, simultaneously his government had decided to stop collecting poverty statistics altogether.

A government sincere about reducing poverty would not have stopped collecting poverty statistics. It needs to be seen whether the concerned govt. agency will be allowed to resume collecting these statistics in future or not.

Godot #106 and #114: Thanks for telling it like it is. And agree with your two posts 100 percent.

Hamidm #117 Romair may write endless inanities. But jay on the other hand is a psychopath whose hatreds have driven him over the brink.

If you think jay is interested in providing any solutions to pakistan, then I have this wonderful eiffel tower in Paris that I will sell you for a dollar and ten cents. And I think Godot has very correctly diagnosed the problem that afflicts Jay.

.......... killing two birds with one stone ........

..... it seems it is common consensus that both romair and jay are bonafide lunatics (although my personal opinion is that jay is the lesser of the two evils)......... in any case, between the two of them, they seem to have a solution for all the problems that beset the horrible hindoos and the pathetic pakis .......... jay has a rather simplistic, one size fits all, solution based on what he calls ``iraquisation`` .......... simple and quite idiotic, yet profound........ on the other hand our resident philosopher, literary critic, military stategist, theologian and geopolitician has a more complex approach that is based on the ``i know everything`` school of thought practised by the scholars trained at kakul and risalpur........... this approach is quite beyond the undestanding of mere mortals ..........

............ regardless, between the two of them these two seem to have all the answers........ so why don`t we lock them up in a room for three days and three nights and see if they can come up with the final solution to this terrible mess that we find ourselves in ........... and, if we are lucky, they will both kill each other and all of mankind will be better of - at least we won`t have to worry about further pollution of the gene pool ................

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AnOrdinaryHindu, 110

I’m well aware of the Indian history but no I don’t look at the Muslim rule in India nostalgically and I do not hate India or the Hindus. My experience is that history belongs to books and the only way to go is forward. As for Pakistanis viewing Muslim rule in India nostalgically, I don’t know any Pakistani who does.

If people start correcting the wrongs done to them based on history, what do you think this world would look like? Why speculate. Bosnia provides a very good example of it. And if you don’t call those people lunatics, what else would you call them? “Justified”?


Jay, 112

I don’t read Romair’s posts, so I don’t know his views. They are unnecessarily long-winded and verbose and I don’t have time to waste. I don’t bother with posts that are longer than 2 or 3 very short paragraphs. As an example, look at this posts #111 on this board. Makes me wonder who has time for this bs. When I have time to read, I go to The New York Review of Books or The Economist, not to Romairs or ahmedmadanis!

Before you go spinning like a lattoo, my debating champion friend, it would suit you to re-read my article India and Pakistan: The Stark Reality.

I call you a lunatic because you have earned that title handsomely at Chowk.


Ironman, 109

See my post to Jay above. You know Romair better than I do.

ahmadmadani #111: Thanks for the reply.

Your insights are quite valuable.

1. Could you explain, in furthur detail the, ``Water stoppage`` issues, from Afghanistan point of view, under Indian influence.

2. If India is trying to stop Pakistan`s water, then do you think India is sincere in its peace efforts. Since water is the mainstay of life.

3. I have always felt Punjab should be divided into three provinces, and Baluchistan should be divided into two or three, as well. This would bring the size of all provinces to equal levels. And reduce the dislike of Punjab amongst other provinces. In addition, Kashmiris in Pakistan, generally speak Punjabi and are almost an extension of Punjab, as well.

Pakistan is the only country in the world now (not sure) where one province has more population than the rest of the provinces combined. USSR was another, and it broke up. And I believe Yugoslavia, with Serbia, may have been the only other. And it broke up. Do you think Punjab should be divided.

4. I don`t think Pakistan`s Kashmir will ever want independence. My family is from there, so I do have some knowledge of the area. It is getting a good deal from Pakistan. I think part of Indian Kashmir will agree to independence. Jammu and most of Ladakh will agree to join India. That is the only solution I see working. Any forceful integration with any country will lead to furthur problems. This is how the problem started in the first place.

5. Do you think India will be willing to give Pakistan its breathing space, in any condition. I don`t think it has settled relations with its neighbors. There are multiple border issues with China, ranging from 1962 to today. There are border skirmishes with Bangladesh. The Bangladesh military now is larger than it was in 1971. This would indicate that there is a threat perception from India. There are issues with Sri Lanka, including an initial support for Tamil Tigers, and now the backlash. There are issues with Pakistan over Kashmir.

I think Pakistan would be better off not getting into a military race or conflict with India, and simultaneoulsy siding completely with China. And waiting for assurances from India of a balanced peace with Pakistan. I think India is in competition with China over South Asia. And as long as Pakistan is allied with China, there will always be issues.

For example, what should Pakistan do if India continues with its plans to stop water from Afghanistan. Or continues buying military armament, which can only be used against Pakistan? How can Pakistan get India to stop that? What should Pakistan do if India keeps purchasing tanks and aircraft, and ships, even after peace is declared? These obviously cannot be used against China.

So any peace with India must be pre-conditioned with India`s stoppage of arms race, and its stoppage of buying armament to attack Pakistan. India is too poor a country to buy such expensive equipment just for showcase purposes. It will only buy it, if it has a plan to use it. Any tank that can only be used in Punjab and Baluchistan plains, will obviously be used to attack Pakistan.

6. Do you think breaking away of Bangladesh was a bad thing. I think it was a good thing for both countries. Obviously had it happened peacefully, it would have been better. I think both countries are better off now. I think they should have been separate countries, from independence. Bengalis had very little representation in the military. And the Pakistani feudal politicians would never have allowed a Bengali party to rule the country. The PPP not winning a single seat in E. Pakistan, and Mujib having zero popularity in the West are good indications. So the breakaway of Bangladesh was inevitable, unless massive reforms occurred on the West Pakistan side. And I think it would be very easy for any Bengali politician to exploit these differences, which Mujib did quite well.

As for ex-faujis being listened to. I am way way down in the hierarchy, to be listened to. And my record in the military was not very good. Maybe you can try to influence more senior people like NazarHayatKhan who spent a major portion of their lives in the military and have a lot of contacts there.

Would be interested in your views.

Godot ji

``There is only one explanation of your hatred of Pakistan. For you, Pakistan symbolizes the Muslim rule in India (“the darkest period of Indian history”), and there is only one way to avenge it: destroy it and thus get a deep satisfaction of “correcting” the “wrong” done to your country in the past.``

You have put your finger on the truth. For some Hindus, Pakistan symbolizes the Muslim rule in India. Therefore, it does not evoke positive feelings. If this perception is based on at least a partial truth, it should be reflected in Pakistan as well. In other words, there should be people in Pakistan too who look back at the Muslim rule in India with nostalgia, as `their` achievement. They should then consider it a matter of pride that `they` ruled over a Hindu majority for many centuries.

I wonder if that has been your experience.

92# Thank you Mr. Romair for taking note of water problem i pointed .``The only theory that still appeals to me is Madani`s water stoppage theory``. I am happy slowly but surely people with military background are taking note of things changing.

Unfortunately its not theory any more it has started from Afghan side.
There was news in international paper Indian Engineers were well received in Afghan country. And Indian engineer group chief said there is great potential for useing water resources. If you have read I wrote about my trip to India and I was putting up in midclass hotel ``Ambassador`` in Pune and they interviewed engineers group leading to A.stan . These were from CWPRS ( Central water power research Station) and they were not ambigious to say the most charitable. He said in rivers projects millions of hectors of land need to be provided water. In fact that group leader claimed afghanistan can export grain( may be their dream). The local radio person asked will it affect flow to Indus. The sleek man said it should have only minimal effect.

Again I say if one feels indians are bad then you have not visited His highexcellency Afghan Nastiness.

I have said earlier Army under Musharaff needs to take strategic decisions and right decisions. ( This is important as my prediction army commands the gun and gun commands the state is going to be thing of Past. Army as has ironclad control of power will be history. It is slowly happening. And Caged civilian leadership of 55 years can not take decisions)

Musharaff should sue for peace and forget about IHK. Make treaty and integrate Azad Kashmir in pakistan without delay. Otherwise Kashmiris will go independent way. All sacrifices will go to drain. The army has sacraficed E Pak for sake of Kashmir. Its like gambler. A wise player quits at apprrpriate time. Stupid waits till he is at total loss.

In 1971 was 22 years old, last opportunity was presented in terms of polish resolution acceptable to all parties ( E.Pk and India), once it was rejected the die was cast and destruction of all achieved by Quaid Mo. Ali Jinnah was inevitable.

India is status power. It does not want destruction of pakistan or even want piece of pakistan. It wants stability and tranquality. It has status quo with all neighbours we can have same. But the army should get down from horses and walk on ground. Seek Loc compromise and integrate Azad Kashmir. If we continue our designs by army then India will start diverting water and NOTHING can be done as we are at war with INDIA.

There is perceptatonable rise in poverty through out counrty even in Karachi. Look outside at stops how miserable children jump on motarcars to collect money. Even by International institutions rise of poverty from 18% to 35% ( one can argue about numbers but numers are not lieing).

I agree with Mr. Romair the danger is population doubling in next 27 years and problems of all minority provinces with Punjab. If we seek enemy Indian will provide us what we seek and will help towards disintegration , though they will not seek actively to destroy pakistan. If we change and give our pipe dreams and be realist then we can seek better relationship with india. Think if we had excellent relationship with Indians , indians would have helped and pressured E Pakistanies to seek solutions like Ceylon. Think there is already trouble in Sindh and people are burning with anger (native sindhis). Those who go to rural sindh can understand the passion of hatred against Punjab. ( unfortunately its illusion of exploitation but illusions are most of time too powerful than truth). If we have best relationship with India, India can impress on them to seek reasonable solutions. I hope people like ex Fauji Romair will write in realistic terms it can help. If people like me write it has no value in army dominated society. Even though I pay taxes ( most perverse indirect taxes) and keep army well fed I can be accused of treason. So I called on all EX Faujis to urge govt to seek reasonable solutions. They can not keep country hijacked all times by calling india as Boogiman all times and squeeze people all time and not to try to find permanant solutions. If we continue our undeclared war on India will also start undeclared war and seek disintegration as a last resort with problems of minority provinces. They worked once and we lost. With rising discontent, after Musharaff gone is going to be most troublesome time for pakistan. As real democracy comes it can lead to disintegration . Still is time though short as that population bomb is ticking, with present population and later population in 3o years from 300 to 350 million all things are coming for implosion. We have to be smart, make india pakistam real adjustments and stop undeclared war if we want to save whatever of present pakistan.

Mr. N.Khan predictions no body knows what happens in twilight of 2030 when populatin swelled to 300 to 350 million poverty is about 50 to 60 % and minority provinces are making unreasonable demands. Still time is there. General is not very smart dragged by situation, not good sign ( weather its taliban , or kargil or april fool election). And he makes virtues of necessities. That is not sign of statesman. We need even from army more intelligent leadership ( Civilian leadership will be good but they have no value where the gun commands state.). Its twilight situation. Let us hope for end to 55 years of undeclared warfare and hope army gives chances for peace.

Godot 106,

Instead of calling me a lunatic why cant you get a grip on the evolving situation around the globe and the widely held intolerence of terrorism affectionately called jihad in many parts of mulsim world.

Have a look at the iran-india pipeline, the pre- feasibility report will come in a months time. Wonder why india signed a military cooperation agrrement a few months ago. Why the uzbek-pak pipe project did not take off with all the funding from ADB and global support.

Iran india undersea pipe is a goer, that will pit pakistan againt india and iran.
Do not read too much of romair, try to think for yourself.
Have a look around and feel the change in world opinion. Wonder why australia called a special cession of parliment to ban Lasker e toiba. Do not read romair alone, and pak press alone, read and understand jays posts.

#106 by godot,

``Jay...reject your blabbering as just another lunatic with nothing better to do.``


Godot saab, you may be right about jay being a lunatic, but surely he does have other better things to do (as seen by his infrequent and not-very-long posts).

Only hamidm can take jay on...in terms of sarcasm and humour...but he seems disinclined these days!

-- - - - - -

The title of chowk lunatic with nothing-better-to-do surely goes to Romair...(see his numerous, carefully edited, ultra long posts on weekdays..not weekends...and at all hours of the day).

Plus add those posts from his various nicks...

Here is a lunatic for whom chowk is a 24x7 operation...who ACTUALLY has nothing better to do.

nasah,

............. please accept my apologies for thinking that you were loosing it!

Jay, 100

Jay, if the insanity of your kind did not exist in Indian policy making apparatus, I would reject your blabbering as just another lunatic with nothing better to do. I know at least one Indian who agrees with you: that dhoti-clad defense minister of yours. Now, a lunatic at Chowk is not a threat to mankind, but one at such high place in a nuclear-capable country is.

So you seriously think that with India leading charge Pakistan can be “iraquizide”; that the Indian “might” can contain the Osama-like Jihadis in Pakistan; that India can in fact invade Pakistan and can get out unscathed? Have you ever thought of the ripple effect of your lunacy? Or you are just too obsessed in your hatred for Pakistan that, for you, its destruction justifies the catastrophe that would follow it no matter its magnitude?

Are you willing to bet George F.’s (and also yours) dhoti that “Iraquisation” of Pakistan by India will make South Asia a peaceful and prosperous region and will not be a catalyst to break India itself into pieces?

There is only one explanation of your hatred of Pakistan. For you, Pakistan symbolizes the Muslim rule in India (“the darkest period of Indian history”), and there is only one way to avenge it: destroy it and thus get a deep satisfaction of “correcting” the “wrong” done to your country in the past.

hamidm -- didn`t nasah say ``hope Tariq will grace the Chowk with some original articles....``:-)

.........now in addition to being an expert on everyting under the sun, romair claims to be a clairvoyant !

.......... so tell me, what did nasah have for breakfast that made him loose his mind and start praising an old communist like tariq ali for once again beating up on america ?............ tariq ali, and people of his ilk, were not able to stop the demise of the evil empire and they have no chance of preventing the rout of islamists, baathists, suiciders and homiciders ................

ijaz_gul:
``Most of my thoughts do not conform to the establisment. Taliban in my thought were an unnatural conception and therefore stillborn. The venom they produces is splashed all ove. Efcourse, Pakistan must take the blame AND FOOT THE BILL. These thoughts amply reflect the dissention and need not be expanded any further.``

You may be in for a surprise. Pakistanis routinely criticise the US for using Pakistan to achieve its objectives in Afghanistan and discarding it like a used condom after their purpose was achieved. They rarely take the blame themselves, as you are suggesting.
...And now, there is every indication that Pakistan and the US are repeating the same old experiments. The first inclination appeared during Musharraf`s trip to the US and, since then, there have been more indications. The US attention is now focussed on Iraq and it does not have the will to engage on both fronts at the present time. So, it seems that it has once again sub-contracted responsibility for Afghanistan to its ``most faithful ally``. While Pakistan has been cooperating wrt al Qaeda, it rarely takes any action against the taleban. It has now persuaded the US that the solution to the Afghanistan lies not in fighting the taleban but to coopt them. So, it has been nurturing some taleban leaders again and seems to have convinced the americans that they should distinguish between moderates and extremists among them. This is why the former taleban foreign minister Mutwwakil has been released.
So, once again Pakistan is willingly getting back into the Afghan mess. And when the chips fall, it will once again accuse the US of betraying it.