Resistance is the first step towards Iraqi independence

Ref AnOrdinaryHindu #262

[I was not trying to put Soysauce ji on the spot. I only wanted him (assuming he is a man,...]

Wrong. He is an eunuch.

[.... as he suggests, we have to make assumptions online) to, respectfully, reconsider his stand since there was no defensible logic behind it.]

The only logic he knows is what he learnt at the Dravidian School of Logic and where the textbooks are the writings of Father Big Man and The Great Intellectual.

[I don`t know whether Soysauce ji belongs to the Dalit community.]

No. he doesn`t.

[If he does, I understand his anger and his need to denounce Hindus in any way or form that he can.]

If you were in Tamil Nadu, he will get you killed for SUGGESTING he might be a Dalit. Do not use the word lightly.

[If I was born a Dalit, I would want to do the same.]

Fine with me.

[All of us need to offer him and all dalits our sincerest apologies for the damage done over the long years of our collective darkness.]

You need to offer Meen-kari-kuzhambu aka soysauce no apology. He is busy feeding at the trough set up for the SC/STs using a bogus caste certificate. On the other hand, you would notice that he hasn`t denied that he belongs to one of the middle castes in Tamil Nadu whose sole aim in life is to deny both the Dalits and the merit candidates their due so that he can get ahead.

[So soysauce ji, if you are a dalit, then I don`t begrudge you your views.]

I have warned you. Soysauce is putting out a contract on you.

[But if you are not, then I will challenge you every inch of the way.]

But that doesn`t worry him. He will just run away just as he has run away from you here. Just look at the beating he got on the board ``Should Pakistan, too, Dump the Commonwealth?``

[There is a new Hinduism taking birth. We will fix our problems, as we must. But we will not put up with patent falsehoods and crap from outsiders anymore.]

But you see, being a Hindu he is an INSIDER. That way he can claim to be a reformer, while collecting a fancy dowry for his professional degree and threatening to set his wife on fire if she doesn`t bring more goodies periodically.

I returned here by chance. My last words on this thread -

I was not trying to put Soysauce ji on the spot. I only wanted him (assuming he is a man, as he suggests, we have to make assumptions online) to, respectfully, reconsider his stand since there was no defensible logic behind it.

I don`t know whether Soysauce ji belongs to the Dalit community. If he does, I understand his anger and his need to denounce Hindus in any way or form that he can. If I was born a Dalit, I would want to do the same. All of us need to offer him and all dalits our sincerest apologies for the damage done over the long years of our collective darkness.

But one strength Hinduism has is to be able to change, to learn. Slowly, but surely, that change is coming. Tamil Nadu is not the only state. In UP, Bihar and elsewhere, where the conditions were the worst, the change, at least in relative sense, is most palpable. So, the Hinduism of tomorrow is going to be very different from the Hinduism of the last thousand plus years. And that`s much to the good.

So soysauce ji, if you are a dalit, then I don`t begrudge you your views. As I said, I genuinely feel sorry for the blackhole in which Hinduism found itself, hurtings its own people. But if you are not, then I will challenge you every inch of the way. There is a new Hinduism taking birth. We will fix our problems, as we must. But we will not put up with patent falsehoods and crap from outsiders anymore.

Ref Inji-kari-kuzhambu #260

[Look at all the assumptions you`re making about me. Let me get started - that I am what you think I am; that I went to school in TN; that I went to a school where quota system prevails; that nonbrahmins are stupid, etc. etc.]

This is getting better, isn`t it?

You have chosen the only other way out by claiming you are not from Tamil Nadu.

Would this be similar to your claiming that you are a MBC (Most Backward Class) to get into a professional college and then telling your prospective in-laws you are a pure-blooded Reddiar or Chettiar so that you can marry within your caste?!

Why this sudden disowning of Tamil? Come on, you name your daughter Love Queen, you probably are named Tamil Mani and all of a sudden you aren`t from Tamil Nadu?

Did you just find out that your forebears had to invent fanciful legends like the Sage Agastya (a brahmin) came down South and created Tamil, that Tolkappiyar who wrote the definitive grammer for Tamil is a brahmin and quite a good number of Sangham poets are identified as being brahmins? But not a single one of them is identified as a Chettiar, Naidu, Gounder, Reddiar, Naicker or any number of middle castes who are claiming Tamil heritage despite being certifiably of Telugu or Kannada descent? Is that why you disown Tamil?

People like you whose sole credential is a bogus MBC certificate from a bribed government official are now telling us that you went to college on merit and we are to believe it? We are not the idiots that you normally deal with in your in-bred families. Can you name one college/university in India that doesn`t have Quotas for Cretins?

Tell us then why Chennai Mathematical Institute is affiliated to Bhoj University in Madhya Pradesh. In fact, is there any other college with an out-of-state affiliation in India?

I didn`t say non-brahmins are stupid. YOU are the ones who proudly advertise the fact that you CANNOT and WILL NOT compete on merit.

[I`m trying to help you here. It makes me uncomfortable to have to point out that you are too stupid to realize that you`re stupid. So start over, enumerate your assumptions & show that they are valid and go from there.]

When trying to help me, stay sufficiently far away so that your polluting shadow doesn`t fall on me!

Did it ever make you uncomfortable to take away a seat reserved for a Pallan or Paraiyan? I bet it didn`t.

My assumptions are simple and straightforward: you are and always will be a cretin. You could try wriggling out of it by claiming to be merit student but the only merit you have is that bogus caste certificate. I am sure you are trying to see if you can use that in your affirmative action case against your employer when you get laid off for stupidity.

#259
50% of Indians over 50 are dead. Therefore you are 50% dead. ;)
Don`t strain that little head of yours too much.
Look at all the assumptions you`re making about me. Let me get started - that I am what you think I am; that I went to school in TN; that I went to a school where quota system prevails; that nonbrahmins are stupid, etc. etc.
I`m trying to help you here. It makes me uncomfortable to have to point out that you are too stupid to realize that you`re stupid. So start over, enumerate your assumptions & show that they are valid and go from there.

Ref d`Inde #258

[No no, you don`t prove something by starting out with questionable assumptions. Had you paid any attention in math class, you start out with established lemmas to prove a theorem. Same with logic: established facts -> acceptable conclusions and NOT assumptions -> conclusions.]

Where are you getting these words, lemma, schlemma, theorem, schmeorem? Watch it, you are not capable of walking and talking at the same time and you are going to trip and fall down if you are not careful.

Whatever passes for mathematics in your understanding obviously doesn`t include probability and statistics. It probably doesn`t include anything except calculating daily compound interest rate of 5% but that is another story.

When 88% of the seats are reserved under the quota scheme, the probability that you are a quota candidate is 0.88. That is almost 9 out of 10. Any halfway intelligent person would be willing to bet the farm that you are a quota candidate.

You see, in the closed system called Tamil Nadu Professional Education System, it is axiomatic that only OBCs can be admitted to professional colleges. You are talking about violating the basic axioms of the system. Not possible.

I gave you a way out: claim you are a Brahmin!

#257
No no, you don`t prove something by starting out with questionable assumptions. Had you paid any attention in math class, you start out with established lemmas to prove a theorem. Same with logic: established facts -> acceptable conclusions and NOT assumptions -> conclusions. In short, proofs are not something that jump out of your head when you stop taking medication. To everyone else they are fantasies and hallucinations. I have little hope that you understand any of this since you`re either senile or severely underdeveloped.
At any rate, start over again and you`re welcome to brag about your ability to do simple artithmetic. It shows that parts of your brain haven`t yet turned to mush.

Ref Inji-kari-kuzhambu #256

[Prove that i went to college on quota. Repeating something doesn`t make it true.
Don`t look for support from other folks. For better or for worse, you`re a grown man now. Learn to fend for yourself.]

I don`t have to prove that you went to college on a quota. YOU have to prove that you didn`t. I will tell you why. If the quota seats are 88%, then the presumption is that you ARE indeed a quota candidate. Even if the quota had been set at 50%, you have a 50-50 chance of getting away with claiming you are not a quota candidate. With 88% set-aside, you ARE a quota candidate.

Not that you are A dalit or an Adivasi (aborigine). Calling you that would be an insult for which you will chop my head off with a sickle. But you belong to one of those middle classes like Chettiar, Mudaliar, Reddiar (now, think of that, a Reddy is a Telugu immigrant into Tamil Nadu but posing as a True Tamil!), or Naidu. You have usurped at least one of the 50% seats reserved for Harijans (would you prefer that term to Dalit or would you want to be called an Untouchable?) and Scheduled Tribes.

I don`t need support from other folks because I have supposrt from mathematics, statistics and logic, all of which are foreign concepts to you.

[Finally, just because you`re a brahmin, it doesn`t follow that you are a vegetarian. See you`re supposed to be an adult and all you have been able to come up with is childish logic..]

Yes, it does too. Just like the stereotype of a Brahmin who wouldn`t give water to one of you lower castes, a Brahmin is not supposed to eat meat. Tell you what, I won`t give you water either.

PS. Now that you have gone to college on a bogus caste certificate, you can claim to be a Brahmin on Chowk. That way you can indeed prove you are not a quota candidate. How about that? I am waiting for you to make that claim. Ha, ha, ha!

#255
What you`re doing is analogous to dropping your pants in the middle of the street. That`s been the only ``expose`` so far. Prove that i went to college on quota. Repeating something doesn`t make it true.
Don`t look for support from other folks. For better or for worse, you`re a grown man now. Learn to fend for yourself.
Finally, just because you`re a brahmin, it doesn`t follow that you are a vegetarian. See you`re supposed to be an adult and all you have been able to come up with is childish logic..

Ref Inji-kari-kuzhambu#254

[This is how you ``expose`` me? Haha.
Don`t eat too much turkey as they are laden with harmones and that could play havoc with your deranged mind...]

Let us see hoe your Dravidian Logic works.

The man who called Tamil a barbarian language and Tamilians barbarians is revered in Tamil Nadu.

The same man who said ``If you see a brahmin and a snake, kill the brahmin first`` has statues in every nook and corner of Tamil Nadu and has public buildings, colleges and even a university named for him. One would think that in any CIVILIZED society, that would be considered hate speech and the person would be shunned by everybody but he is your hero. And you have the frikkin nerve to call me a b!got.

Finally, you who have gone to a college on a quota seat (the quota for the mentally backward) actually believe that you are the mental equivalent of Einstein.

My expose of you consists of the fact that you are unable to reconcile your posturings on Chowk with your hero-worship of Periyar and his followers such as Annadurai and Karunanidhi.

Of course, the fact that AnOrdinaryHindu is still waiting for an answer to his question proves that you are a coward who turns tail any time you are caught in verbal inconsistencies.

PS. As to my ingesting turkey, you should know that as a Brahmin I won`t eat meat.

#253
This is how you ``expose`` me? Haha.
Don`t eat too much turkey as they are laden with harmones and that could play havoc with your deranged mind...

Ref Meen-kari-kuzhambu #252

No answer to my questions. Or to those of AnOrdinaryHindu.

At least, I am succesful in exposing your fraudulent posturings on Chowk.

#251
I think you should stay with some relative or a friend who can get you competent medical care. Stop listening to the voices in your head. They are telling you absurd things and could get you into trouble.
Stop watching so much bharatha natyam. That also could mess up your head.

Ref Dravidian Logician #250

[Who`re you talking to there unkalji?]

I was talking to YOU.

[You know my background?]

I know your background. You are the kind which argues that saying ``If you see a Muslim and a snake, kill the Muslim first`` is evidence of bigotry but ``If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first`` is a rational way of eliminating brahmins.

Despite the enlightened humanism that you always assume when you post on Chowk, the fact remains that your entire past is built upon sucking the lifeblood out of poor Dalits.

Oh, did you visit the Periyar University website? The university was started not in the first flush of DMK`s electoral victory back in 1967 but in 1997! So much for 30 more years of progressive Dravidian logic.

By the way, have you ever asked where K. Veeramani (the general secretary of DK) gets his income? For someone with no education worth talking about, and who hasn`t had a regular job except as a rabble-rouser, he seems to be sitting on fancy properties in the form of houses, buildings and land in Chennai. That is what you get for saying ``If you see a brahmin and a snake, kill the brahmin first``. But does anyone ask how he acquired these properties?

PS. Wouldn`t it be funny if it turns out that you are Veeramani`s son?

#245
Who`re you talking to there unkalji? Some phantoms in your brain? You know my background? Prove it then!
Much as I`d like to accuse you of lying (because you`re writing untruths about me) I can`t since it`s obvious that your mental capacity has been affected...

Romair,

I believe that a US Air Force general said that its a good thing we won WWII because otherwise we would be up on war crimes charges. I think he was right. That, I think, answers your question. I`m sure that HRW will charge the US with war crimes as well (if it hasn`t done so already).

However (there is always a however; don`t you just hate that!), there is a major qualitative and quantitative difference between the US and SaddamCo in Iraq. The Iraqi civilian casualties are indeed `collateral damage.` At one level there is no difference between collateral damage and deliberately inflicting civilian casualties since, after all, dead is dead. At a second level of analysis, US military planners try to minimize civilian casualties given the military objectives. I do not say that they sacrifice major military objective to prevent civilian casualties. After all, they aren`t saints. I am sure that low level military objectives have been sacrificed when they thought that civilian casualties would be too high.

For example, in the early days of the war, given the number of attacks on US military checkpoints, the easy thing to do would be to destroy any vehicle approaching the checkpoint. However, that was not acceptable to US military/civilian decision makers. So they ran the risk of higher US military casualties since simply destroying any vehicle that approaced a checkpoint was not a viable option.


Do you seriously think that Saddam Hussain or his generals thought about civilian casualties when they planned anything? In fact, there is more than enough evidence to show that they deliberately tried to maximize civilian casualties.

So, as far as the dead are concerned, there is no difference. There is a difference in the number of the dead. And if you don`t think that is a real difference, you are sadly mistaken.

Fuzair 246,

I love the crockodile tears of human rights that you and romair shed for the iraquis killed by the yanks. The hundreds of thouisand of pakistanis killed in afghanistan, the ones killed in the heights of kargill, the ones killed in kashmir, they are not humans killed, they are jihadis on a quick trip to heaven, and deserve no human rights tears. It is pathetic that you educated cannot count the jihadic deaths. May be as first step, before quoting the western reports, learn to count the jihadic as humans. It is really unbelieveable that with thopusands of pakistani jihadists killed, there is not even a wimper from their families, from the fuzairs and romairs of pakistan.

Fuzair #246: ``Human Rights Watch has just said that the attacks on civilians, or when civilians are killed in attacking military targets in Iraq, is a war crime.``

What would that make the attacks by the US military on Iraq (and Afghanistan), in which, to protect one USAF pilot, hundreds of civilians are killed?

If you were take the combined firepower of all the attacks against the USA, by the militants, they would pale in comparison to the firepower that was launched in any one minute by the USA forces in this Gulf War and in the previous wars. In each one of these attacks, the aim is predominantly to protect the American soldier, at the expense of the civilians.

In addiiton, the US strategy always targets civilian sources like water plants, electricity grids etc., to completely decapitate the resources of the country they are attacking. This leads to hospitals and other areas running out of electricity, etc.

Any attack in which a civilian is knowingly killed is a human rights violation. And invariably, more civilians are killed by a piece of armament manufactured in the USA, than by a piece manufactured anywhere else in the world. And more and more those pieces are being launched by the Americans, themselves. And more often than not, it is the USA which initiates the killings of the civilians.

Do a quick calcuation: How many American civilians had been killed by Iraqis, prior to this war. Zero. How many Iraqi civlians have been killed by Americans prior to this war. Thousands. And hundreds of thousands if we count the sanctions.

How many American civilians have been killed by Iraqis in this war? The number is probably less than twenty (most civilians killed even by the militants are Iraqis). How many Iraqi civilians have been killed by Americans in this war, under the broad stroke of, ``collateral damage?`` The numbers I have read are between 7000 and 15000.

Had the USA not invaded Iraq, neither side would have killed civilians. So, while I do not agree with some things Tariq Ali says. I do agree with a lot also. These are all vicitims of, ``American imperialism.``

USA was not, is not, cannot, nor has it ever been, threatened by Iraq. Yet it continues killing Iraqis, under one precedent or another. This time around, having run out of all excuses to attack, with no WMDs, it has used the one, which is arrogantly laughable, i.e. it is attacking Iraq for the benefit of the Iraqis. Isn`t that what the USSR said when they attacked Afghanistan? Everyone was up in arms when that happened. Yet so many people are willing to give the USA a clean chit. I am glad Tariq Ali isn`t..........

The posts here have taken a strange twist, but heres something to put it back on track. Human Rights Watch has just said that the attacks on civilians, or when civilians are killed in attacking military targets in Iraq, is a war crime. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Tariq Ali`s beloved resistance to the evil, imperialist Americans is a war crime. Tariq Ali always struck me as a washed up old Trotskyite who refused to grow up and persisted in biting the hand that fed him.

Ref Maasanamuthu #244

[#242
Lemme guess. Your prozac prescription has run out and you have started to hallucinate again? Just a wild guess but i`m probably not too far off the mark.]

Oh, that`s your explanation, right?

Have you forgotten what is painted on walls in Tamil Nadu? Have you forgotten the mantra of the Dravidian movement?

Let me remind you.

``If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first.``

Do you remember who said this?

Thanthai Periyar. The Father of the Dravidian Movement. For whom you have statues and busts in every nook and corner of Tamil Nadu. For whom you have named government buildings and schools and colleges.

And even a university (http://www.periyaruniversity.net/).

On whose birthday, all you Dravidian Progressives troop up to his statues and garland them.

And you have the nerve to come here on Chowk and pontificate about Gujarat and the guilt of Hindus.

As to my statements about you benefitting from the rip-off of hapless people in Tamil Nadu, haven`t you used this statement ``If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first`` to stop all merit-based admission to colleges and government jobs and declare yourself to be backward caste so that you can deprive the Dalits and the Aborigines of their quotas?

Tell Chowkies I am making this up.

Because I will be able to show you up for the liar and cheat that you are.

It is better for you to claim amnesia.

soysauce ji

I am sorry to say that you are proving to be an extremely dishonest person. I hope that is not so. Here is why I call you dishonest:

You made a statement that sati and Gujrat riots are the same things. After that you have not offered us one clear statement to explain why that is so. Your best has been that they are both related to Hindus (in the latter case, Muslims too) and both related to deaths. That, according to you, is enough to make them the `same things.`

A person who tries to be so clever with words can also write clearly what is on his mind, what led him to such an absurd and bigotted statement.

#242
Lemme guess. Your prozac prescription has run out and you have started to hallucinate again? Just a wild guess but i`m probably not too far off the mark.
Let`s get back to MY point. Back up what you say about me in #234. Don`t run away. It`s probably good for your heart but not for your reputation.

Ref soysauce #241

[#238
Oops, forgot to answer your question. I`d think, hey this must be harimau. Happy?]

Let us see.

I asked the question: what do you think of a man who says repeatedly ``If you see a Muslim and a snake, kill the Muslim first.``

I must agree you came up with a clever response.

Now let us see if you weren`t too clever by half.

Tell the Chowkies why I asked that question.

Go ahead.

Tell them.

Tell them why I asked that very specific question.

#238
Oops, forgot to answer your question. I`d think, hey this must be harimau. Happy?

#238 harimau,
Just as i thought. You`re running away by bringing irrelevancies.
Why don`t you first tell us that you didn`t cheat on taxes last year? Mind you, just last year. How does your brand of logic taste to you?
OK, where were we? You hate muslims because you think some anonymous guy on the net hates your type. Is that just about right?

#237
Personal tirades? Now, now aren`t you being a little martyr?
Here`s the logic for you:
Many people travel by car.
Many people travel by foot.
Conclusion: both are means to travel.

Hey Maasanamuthu (#235),

I noticed you skipped over my post #233 but responded to #234.

So, tell Chowkies what you think of a man who says repeatedly ``If you see a Muslim and a snake, kill the Muslim first.``

What, cat got your tongue?

soysauce ji

I request that instead being proud of being a bigot, or launching personal tirades against me, you consider whether your logic, as you have expressed it, does not follow this pattern:

Many people in XYZ place own cars.
Many people in XYZ place own umbrellas.

Hence owning cars is the same as owning umbrellas.

Thank you.

Plats

I dont know about your documentation, but the only concrete documentation on the riots so far shows that out of 850 or so people killed, about 300 were Hindus. Also, more than 150 (at least!) were killed in police firings. I dont remember the actual numbers, but dozens of policemen were killed by the mobs.

I know the Goebbelian theory that a lie repeated hundred times becomes the truth. But at least the lie has to be repeated - here the riot death toll first became exclusively muslim, then it went up to 2000, then 5000. I am waiting for it to cross 10000 mark anyday now! Justice Nanavati is put in charge of an inquiry commision. He comes out with some initial observations, about how he got no proof of direct government involvement in the riots in any way, also talks about how at 155 places in Gujarat the riots seem to have been started by muslims, and he (a parsi) becomes another hindu fundamentalist. And then he is boycotted by the progressive media. Nowadays he doesn`t exist for the media anymore.

Its upto you to come up with the proof that the govt aided a particular community in rioting. What do you have? A secret document? A picture of Modi leading the riotors? I dont believe in hysterical rantings of the Indian English press. But I know that hundreds of riotors and dozens of policemen were killed during the riots, and that doesn`t tell me that the government was doing nothing.

Maybe Modi was not sympathetic to Muslims, and maybe his government could have done better in trying to control riots. But in that he was neither better nor worse than a number of other chief ministers around India. The Gujarat riots were not the ones with most dead in the history of independent india. That glory goes to Bhagalpur and Muradabad riots (both single city ones).

The difference this time was that it was a BJP government. Our progressive media had drummed around the world that they were vicious, murderous nazis who will organise pogroms of muslims once they came to power. Time was passing and no pogroms! So, with some help from friendly powers, an actual pogrom was organised at Godhra - no muslim victims here, no armed hindus, victims surrounded from all sides, in a train compartment, and then burned to death. 58 victims - 25 women, 14 children. That is a pogrom for you.
And that created a massive reaction. The animal feelings took over - humanity took a temporary leave of absence. Half a million people on the roads - no police or army in the world could have stopped it.

This riot came as manna from heaven for our progressives in the media - especially for editors who had promised in Pakistan that they`d `take care` of the BJP. Now they could go around and tell the world - `look! we told you so!` Fine, the only problem is, we hindus have sort of stopped caring about what the progressive intellectuals of the world (including pakistanis - God! Is there any end to surprises!) think of us anymore. And believe me, it is a liberating thing.

Plats, go on, preach. But your preachings are useless. Next time something like Godhra happens, there is going to be a much larger reaction. Very very hurtful to India, with our economy just picking up. But it is not going to go away by holier than thou preaching. In fact that preaching is what has hardened the hearts of many Hindus. A dialogue is the answer, not a monologue. And if you have to preach, preach also to those who create Godhras.

#231
All I am asking you to do is to explain your statement that ``hindu tolerance of sati was (the same as) hindu tolerance of wholesale massacre of muslims because the latter was simply a reaction to the burning of the yatris``

Huh? Are you having comprehension problems? I`m saying (1) there`s hindu tolerance of wholesale massacre of muslims, (2) sati was tolerated by hindus for a long time, and (3) hence the equation.
Feel free to call me what you want. Since I get the feeling that in your opinion gujarat was mererly a hindu ``reaction``, I`ll wear that label with honor.

#234
Harimau,
Since you`re making a personal insinuation about me, why don`t you go ahead and prove that I`m any of those things that you say I am. Normally I don`t care as you always come across as having skipped a few doses of your medication, but since you keep hiding your bigotry under some assumptions about me, it`s time to prove your point. I predict you`ll run away.

Ref Sudalaikkannu #229

[#226
Did I say it excuses the Gujarat riots?

You didn`t have. Context is everything. You certainly implied that it does.
It`s like Dubya saying we had to invade iraq because we were attacked on 9/11. The connection isn`t made explicitly but it certainly is implied.]

Let us see an exercise in context-sensitive statements and their implications.

Suppose I say, ``If you see a Muslim and a snake, kill the Muslim first.`` Suppose I say this not once but repeatedly.

I would like to know exactly what you think of me or any such person making such a statement.

Ref plats8 #232

[harimau #226,

Going by your argument, we should never criticize any inequity (to put it mildly) of the
present, because there is always precedence of ``us`` having done something similar
in the past. I am sure Tamil Brahmins have their share of misdeeds as well, as do
all other ethno-religious groups. Surely you don`t intend to do that.]

You would notice that I carry a 2x4 and freely use it to demolish hypocrisy on Chowk.

I was merely pointing out that people like Soysauce who are full of concern for Gujarati Muslims have no concern when injustice was being done to other persons. It is even more interesting that Soysauce personally is a beneficiary of several injusticed wreaked on the hapless population of Tamil Nadu but he is posing here as a reasonable and rational person.

harimau #226,

Going by your argument, we should never criticize any inequity (to put it mildly) of the
present, because there is always precedence of ``us`` having done something similar
in the past. I am sure Tamil Brahmins have their share of misdeeds as well, as do
all other ethno-religious groups. Surely you don`t intend to do that.

satish #230,

No, these were not people caught in a vicious cycle of random violence - it was actually
spectacularly well-directed violence. There is enough documentation to prove that the
govt aided and abetted a particular community in the rioting (for purely electoral reasons, as Harimau did point out) - voter lists do not appear out of nowhere. And saying that
Hindus and Muslims were equally victimized is completely disingenuous ; just look at
numbers of refugees from each community.

No self-respecting Indian of any community should try and justify the Gujarat riots (or
the Delhi riots of 1984, for that matter). Any civil society would`ve thrown Modi into a
political dustbin for his colossal incompetence, but we are well short of civil at times.

Soysauce ji

All I am asking you to do is to explain your statement that ``hindu tolerance of sati was (the same as) hindu tolerance of wholesale massacre of muslims because the latter was simply a reaction to the burning of the yatris``

I am asking you to share with us the logic you used to arrive at that conclusion. If you used no logic, then you would be making a ridiculous and bigotted statement simply in order to have something to say against Hindus. I hope that is not so. Now, please explain to us why you are not a raving bigot who makes ridiculous and far-fetched leaps of reason merely to criticize Hindus.

Thank you in advance for your explanation.

Re:plats8

No, the men, women and children killed in Gujarat were not murderous thugs from northwest. But neither were they exclusively Muslim or Hindu. They were people who were caught in a vicious cycle started by murderous thugs from northwest. And it is the same murderous thugs from northwest who by their crocodile tears are trying to use those horrible happenings for their murderous ends. The thugs always had a one track mind that drove them to try to destroy the kaffirs, and they are at it right now. The only difference is that Indians have changed, and they could see through these murderous designs (including a large number of muslim Indians).

#224
It`s not clear to me what you`re asking. You apparently have a set of assumptions that you`re asking me to justify.
Are you saying hindu tolerance of sati was different from hindu tolerance of wholesale massacre of muslims because the latter was simply a reaction to the burning of the yatris?
Are you saying sati doesn`t enter into it because muslims did it too? What?
If you`re going to butt into an argument, at least clarify what it is that you`re asking. I think I have made my equation clear. Since you disagree with it, why don`t you spell out for me why instead of putting questions to me. I have no idea what your position is on these things and have no intention of going round and round. Maybe you should start with an intro or something. At least i know where Harimau the bigot stands.

#225
Unkalji, maybe you have a point that the burning of the train had been planned - how far ahead, who knows. What we do know is that the assault on the muslims had been in the works for some time and the state machinery colluded with the thugs. Very different scenario altogether.
I have no intention of going thru your bazillion posts. But you did say that the hindu reaction was to be expected. You also keep bringing up how horrid it was that the yatris were burned with no similar sympathy for the ordinary muslims who were hunted and killed. Since i know that you don`t think that hindus are murderous thugs, it seems to me that you think hindu reaction was justified. QED

#226
Did I say it excuses the Gujarat riots?

You didn`t have. Context is everything. You certainly implied that it does.
It`s like Dubya saying we had to invade iraq because we were attacked on 9/11. The connection isn`t made explicitly but it certainly is implied.

Ref plats8 #221

[Harimau #210,

Would you care to explain why the act of hoodlums in Madras in 1986 excuses the
orchestrated killing of Muslims in Gujarat in 2002 ? I fail to see it.]

Did I say it excuses the Gujarat riots?

I am asking that idiot Soysauce why he has different scales for different people.

Ref Sudalaimuthu #223

[#220

Hmm, i wonder if you`re just another alias for Unkal Harimau.]

If so, you wouldn`t have been addressed as Soysauce. That is a dead giveaway.

[Before i go on, would it be correct to assume that you see what happened in Gujarat (``riots``) as a spontaneous reaction to the burning of the yatris?]

Should AnOrdinaryHindu assume that what happened at Godhra was a spontaneous reaction to the singing of bhajans? Should he assume that it is normal for a mob of 2000 to gather within 5 minutes with cans of gasoline, stop the train and burn a carriage when bhajans are sung? Should we assume that The Tea Vendor`s Daughter, who was allegedly kidnapped by the Hindu pilgrims, escaped from a carriage locked from outside because she received the special blessings of Allah while that same Allah blocked Lord Ram, the false god that the benighted Hindus were worshipping, from providing a similar escape for the Hindus?

If these pilgrims had followed Father Big Man`s advice about not worshipping the Aryan god Ram and were singing bhajans in praise of Ravana the Dravidian, do you think they would have escaped? Do you think all Indians should heap abuse on Hinduism`s gods while kissing the butt of mullahs and priests, like Doctor Artist Leader does?

Soysauce

You made an argument. If it is possible for you, you should defend that argument. If you can`t, or have to stretch analogies to make your case, say so. The only thing I ask is that you be ready to judge other communities using your same standards, using your same kind of logic, and using your same kind of assumptions.

#220
Will you make your association of Sati with Gujrat riots by Hindus after the burning down of train compartments full of Hindu men, women, and children clear to us, please?

Hmm, i wonder if you`re just another alias for Unkal Harimau.
Before i go on, would it be correct to assume that you see what happened in Gujarat (``riots``) as a spontaneous reaction to the burning of the yatris?

Satish #216,

``At least now we will probably not be expected to roll over and play dead
when the hordes of murderous thugs come from north west.``

I see. So the Gujarati men, women and children killed and burnt alive were
all murderous thugs from the north west ? And the next time such thugs
invade, should we expect Gujarati businessmen to be at the frontlines ?

Harimau #210,

Would you care to explain why the act of hoodlums in Madras in 1986 excuses the
orchestrated killing of Muslims in Gujarat in 2002 ? I fail to see it.

Soysauce

``Going by that gujarat is a rotten place indeed. If you read the history of Sati you`ll find that ordinary hindus accepted it as a fact of life. I bring this up to argue that the acceptance of murderous behavior on the part of hindus as somehow limited in scope and situation can be dangerous.``

Will you make your association of Sati with Gujrat riots by Hindus after the burning down of train compartments full of Hindu men, women, and children clear to us, please?

#217
Why don`t you phrase your question more clearly? What innuendo, what wishy-washy logic? Judge other communities, why not? Do you believe only a hindu should criticize hindus & so on?

Ref AnOrdinaryHindu #217

[re: soysauce # 213

My dear friend, you are relying on the tactic of innuendo and wishy-washy logic. Would you care to explain your reasoning, and would you be willing to judge other communities using this same logic?]

Maasanamuthu aka Soysauce is the representative of the Dravidian School of Logic as propounded by Father Big Man and The Great Intellectual. So don`t expect anything better from him.

re: soysauce # 213

``If you read the history of Sati you`ll find that ordinary hindus accepted it as a fact of life. I bring this up to argue that the acceptance of murderous behavior on the part of hindus as somehow limited in scope and situation can be dangerous.``

My dear friend, you are relying on the tactic of innuendo and wishy-washy logic. Would you care to explain your reasoning, and would you be willing to judge other communities using this same logic?

Re: Soysauce

Yes, Hindus are getting as bad as that, and thank God (or whatever suits you) for that. At least now we will probably not be expected to roll over and play dead when the hordes of murderous thugs come from north west.

Thanks for your caring concern for the Hindu society, and also happy to know you are reading the History of Suttee, one of the burning economic topics of present day land of the pure! (And to think that some people are still surprise why the land of the pure is in the self-destruct mode!!)

re:#213 by soysauce
I always have believed that Gujarat carnage is a bad chapter in Indian secularism. It was not just a tit for tat response by a mob. It went beyond that. It involved the local civic administration, police, local poiticians etc. I hope something like this never gets repeated.
Sridhar

Ref Sudalaikkannu #213

[Listen to likes of Harimau Iyer who say that the muslims got what was coming to them.... to realize how deep the rot is getting to be among middle-class hindus.]

You can read all my posts regarding Gujarat. I said that Modi would have to be seen as serving out retribution for the Godhra incident if he wanted to get re-elected.

Of course, with the education you got from attending the schools in Tamil Nadu, I don`t expect any comprehension of the English language or logic.

#212 rsridhar
I think gujarat was qualitatively very different. The looting was not done by characters who just happened to be around when shops were being put to the torch with its owners pulled out and killed. Rather these were middle-class hindus who hopped into their vehicles with the specific goal of looting the shops, and driving away with the goods. These were calculated, not impulsive acts. It`s said that the middle class is the conscience of the nation, it being more representative than other groups. Going by that gujarat is a rotten place indeed.
If you read the history of Sati you`ll find that ordinary hindus accepted it as a fact of life. I bring this up to argue that the acceptance of murderous behavior on the part of hindus as somehow limited in scope and situation can be dangerous. Listen to likes of Harimau Iyer who say that the muslims got what was coming to them or the likes of Satish who say it was no big deal to realize how deep the rot is getting to be among middle-class hindus.

re:#208 by soysauce
Whenever pogroms happen, unruly elements take over. I was a witness to riots after Mrs Indira Gandhi fell to an assasins bullets. The death itself was declared late in the evening (around 5 pm i think). All hell broke loose and rioting started. I was in Connaught Place with a Malaysian friend who was doing internship with me. Street urchins and the Gujjar community started looting T.V, VCR, Stereo etc from the shops. My friend picked up an item for himself: a small souvenir, he called it!
That looting had nothing to do with the riots. Riots that followed were carefully planned by the Congress hoodlums.
Sridhar

``BAGHDAD, Iraq, Nov. 14 — The Bush administration has agreed to restore independence to Iraq as early as next June, apparently hoping the move will change the perception of the United States as an occupying power and curb the mounting attacks on American forces in the country, Iraqi and American officials said Friday.``

``Resistance is the first step towards Iraqi independence``
Tariq Ali

Indeed -- NOT the `Governing Council`......

Ref Hindu-means-Thief-according-to-a-Persian-Dictionary #208

[There were widespread reports that during the pogrom on muslims in allhabad & elsewhere, middle & upper caste hindus drove up to muslim shops and helped themselves. I have always wondered if ordinary hindus could become so callous, lowest of the low and I wonder no more after reading your post.]

I landed in Chennai on Dec 29, 1986. The Darling of the Dravidian Masses, the Arnold Schwarzenegger of Tamil Cinema, Dr. MGR had died on Dec 25. Because the masses were so overwhelmed by the death of their leader, in their grief they helped themselves to anything they could get their hands on from the shops on Mount Road. The shopowners had tried to use close their stores using rolling shutters but unfortunately they had installed the kind that had panels of clear plastic so that passersby could still see what is inside the store. The mobs broke through the plastic and then used poles to break the display windows which were a couple of feet away from the shutters and reach inside them for the shirts, trousers and saris on display.

But this was a multi-religious mob robbing stores owned primarily by Hindus so this should be okay. Also, the cause was mourning the death of a DMK leader which makes it the right thing to do.

Shut the fcuk up and stop polluting Chowk with your inanities.

Soysauce

whether one is a Hindu or a Muslim -- Christian, or Jewish or a Buddhist -- when one becomes part of a mob -- one becomes the Primal Primitive raging monstrous barbarian -- our civlization of ONLY 5 thousand years -- is only skin deep...

Hasanji, here`s one for you:
There were two stark lessons in the history of the 20th century: no nation that launched a war against another sovereign nation ever won. And every nationalist-based insurgency against a foreign occupation ultimately succeeded. This is not to say anything about whether or not the United States should have gone into Iraq or whether the insurgency there is a lasting one. But it indicates how difficult the situation may become.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/09/weekinreview/09BEAR.html

#203
There were widespread reports that during the pogrom on muslims in allhabad & elsewhere, middle & upper caste hindus drove up to muslim shops and helped themselves. I have always wondered if ordinary hindus could become so callous, lowest of the low and I wonder no more after reading your post.

````Haroon Siddiqui, an emeritus editor at the Toronto Star says a ``subdued`` President Bush reminds him of the Shah of Iran, the U.S.-backed tyrant who was overthrown by the Shiite fundamentalists in 1979.

``Living in the cocoon of his court, the `king of kings` got angry when told in the fall of 1978 that a populist revolution was well underway. The warning had been triggered by a million-person march in Tehran. He went up in a helicopter, saw the sea of humanity below and plunged into a deep depression. Three months later, he was gone.

``There`s no knowing yet if Bush will be toast in the election still a year away. But there`s no mistaking the signals that disastrous news from Iraq and beyond is piercing the presidential bubble.`` ````(Washington Post)

Bush WILL be toast in the election 2004....the bubble WILL burst.....Twelve Months later the Stupido will be gone....like a bad dream the nightmare will be over...

the countdown has begun..

``````Spengler,`` a columnist for Asia Times, a smart new Hong Kong-based news site, says ``America is losing the intelligence war.``

He argues that the rocket attack on the hotel of deputy defense secretary Paul Wolfowitz last month indicates that ``the Iraqi resistance has infiltrated the American command.``

``That should be no surprise,`` he says, ``given that the occupiers depend on local sources for information, and have little capacity to distinguish a repentant Ba`athist from a saboteur.`` ````(Washington Post)

a spicy headline in Washington Post: ``Georgians Want President to Resign``....:-)

Resign George Bush RESIGN......the Georgians wants you to RESIGN...

Stuka


Congratulations!! You absolutely demolished the strawman you constructed. That was brave.

But for lower order beings like us, they were communal riots, and not `pogroms` which your lurid imagination conceives sitting there.The riots were started by both communities and looting, hacking .... was done by both. People from both communities were killed. The riots in Gujrat were neither more bloody, nor more one sided, nor more or less abetted by politicians of various hues than many many others before them.

What gets to people like me is your absolute dependence on the same `Angana` like channels of news that you (being a self-declared rightist) claim to oppose. That, and the hectoring, patronising tone that comes with having lived in the `west` for some years and hence knowing better and having become better human beings (leftists or rightists).

I cant speak for gujjubaniya, but faced with such irritating behaviour, I feel like writing the same things he writes. And dont worry, we dont have to really think whether `fascism` and `free market` can live together, this `fascism` being another of your strawmen.

As per your guesses about my H1B etc. there is no point in talking about it as you have no means to know who or what I am and I have neither means nor inclination to prove anything to you. My point was just to convey how happy I have been, and that wouldn`t have been the case if the repatriation was forced. By the way, I wasn`t in US, but in Europe.
I wrote those lines to be taken as true statements, but if you dont , then just disregard them.

Satyavadi: While I do not dispute the veracity of your posts, I would feel better if you directed some of your outrage against those who spew invective against non Gujarati fellow Indians as well. As you are well aware, neither Sridhar and I are Muslim or Pakistani, but we stand up to such idiotic talk that Gujjubania throws around.

Satish:

``he is also a `Baniya` and that automatically removes him from Testosterone sploshing, Body-organ-size-measuring, Baniya hating, REAL (Momin or Pseudo-momin) Punjabbi gabru society.``


But different from the Muslim killing, hacking, raping, looting, hating Gujju Baniya. BTW, do not have the supposition that the term ``Baniya`` has anything to do with free market economy. People who are true capitalists believe in competition, healthy one, that is. They believe in sustainable win-win situations. Unlike the Baniyas on this board for whom success is defined by the acquisition of personal wealth through killing defenceless victims and feeling proud and boasting about it.

As far as your thinking that fascism and free enterprise can go together, what can one say but: Vinaash Kale Vipreet Budhi. I am sure staunch Hindutvawadis like you will understand.



``They left India years ago when it used to be a country populated by (and ruled by) losers. They haven`t caught the bug of hope and optimism that we have. ``

So did Gurcharan Das. LOL!!


``I recently returned to Bangalore after quite a few years in `first world`, and believe me, I have never been so happy in my life before.``

Translation: I got laid off from my H1B job and had to go back so Ii am suffering from acute syndrome of sour grapes.

Dost-Mittar ji

Gurcharan Das may be a punjabi, but he is also a `Baniya` and that automatically removes him from Testosterone sploshing, Body-organ-size-measuring, Baniya hating, REAL (Momin or Pseudo-momin) Punjabbi gabru society.

Gujubaniya

Dont worry if the `Indians` on this site dont get where you are coming from. They left India years ago when it used to be a country populated by (and ruled by) losers. They haven`t caught the bug of hope and optimism that we have. Also, they have a vested interest in holding on to the world that used to be - first world - bright, rich, happy, and the third - gloomy, starving, dangerous. If this picture changes, what have they achieved in life and what are they doing over there in dark, cold places where people look, feel, speak and live different?

I recently returned to Bangalore after quite a few years in `first world`, and believe me, I have never been so happy in my life before. I am writing this sitting in my office somewhere upstate NY where I am for a business visit, and I cant wait to get back to my warm, sunny Bangalore in a couple of weeks.

re:#193 by satyavadi
I have nothing personally against Gujaratis or anybody for that matter. My dad worked in an important Govt position (he is retired now) and interacted closely with the Gujarati business community in Bombay. The stories i was told can fill pages. In nutshell, Gujarati community is very self-centered, thinks only about Gujaratis and does not think much beyond money. My dad should know better as he spent years interacting with that community. These are facts. As i said, i have nothing personally against the Gujjus.
Sridhar

``I am the last person to criticise or judge people on basis of their ethnicity - that does not simply matter where I come from.``

Ooh right. But religion does. That is so different of course. It is stupid to criticize on the basis of ethnicity, but perfectly okay to kill them because of their religion. What perfect logic.



``Can`t say the same about a `Punjabis` in this forum though. What can I say - grow up. ``

Take your own advice dude.

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gujjubania:
``I have been reading this book by Gurcharan Das , ``India Unbound ````
...that should have demolished your stereotype of a panjabi. In case you didn`t know, Gurcharan Das is as Panjabi as they come. He was actually born in Pakistan and came to India as a refugee and is successful both as an entrepreneur and an intellectual.

godot [``... emphasis on ethnicity for an illiterate nation like Pakistan is a powder keg... this tribal mentality will doom Pakistan, which will benefit no one. ...``]

I think we both understand the other`s perspective. Trouble is we are coming from two different sets of values. In your value judgement the state entiry of Pakistan is worthy of preservation. In my value judgement it is not. That will inevitably lead to different conclusions even as we examine the same set of facts.

To me Pakistan is a failed experiment that has caused more grief than it has good. Now one could argue, as they are doing with the Iraq case, that okay, even if it was a mistake originally, now what is done is done.. let`s look at the existing reality and do the best we can with it. This is how the Bush apologists are justifying the continuation of that folly and this is exactlywhat the Pakistani patriot says about that state entity.

My contention is simple. A hundred years ago there was no trace of what is called Pakistan. A hundred years from now that state entity may or may not exist. No one knows and there are no credible assurances, as they are for instance, in the case of France. A hundred years from now the country called France will most likely still be around as a country. It`s a fairly decent bet. But not with Pakistan. Perhaps you will agree, or maybe not, but let`s not belabor the point. The point basically is that whether there is or is not a Pakistan or a Bharat is immaterial, the fact simply remains a thousand years ago Punjab did exist and a thousand years from now Punjab will still be around. Romair`s futuristic vision of an urdu speaking Paki-Punjab notwithstanding. (BTW, his post #188 is a good one.)

Your fear that focus on ethnicity will doom Pakiatan, is not appropriate because Pakistan is already doomed. It`s like worrying about new capital charges being filed against a condemned man awaiting execution.

If or rather WHEN the present state-entity called Pakistan finally bites the dust, I doubt if the well being of the average Pakistani will be hurt at all. On the contrary much good may come from it, much the same as the dissolution of ideological states of Eastern Europe did not bring doom and gloom to their people. Olaf and Otto from Lipzig and Dresden are probably going to be better off in the long run even if today they may be having economic hardship. And as Romair visualizes, if there is a monetary union and free exchange of goods, services and labor, what does it matter if Mirpur Khas is being governed in urdu from Islamabad or in Sindhi from Hydeabad? (No, not from Karachi. That`s to be an autonomous entity (T) )

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Now we have rsridhar generalizing about all Gujaratis and making blanket statements. For example:
[Gujaratis are called banias perhaps because they see nothing beyond ``money``. ]
[These high profile Gujjus treat India like a whore. And they expect to be appreciated in return! ]

And I can come up with such negative generalizations( and worse) about Tamils and any other community in India.. But I won`t...

See how, us Gujaratis never generalize about other communities and treat others with respect?

:)

re:#188 by Romair
Romair,
You have never answered any of my posts. Perhaps because most of my posts addressed to you have been critical.
I want to commend you for this particular post. What you envision is really something worth striving for. Indeed, the need of the hour is to put political differences aside and for Indians, Pakistanis and all south asians to forge an economic union. I believe Kashmir problem will melt away once this happens. Once India and Pak have a $10 billion dollar annual trade and vested interests in place to continue that trade, Kashmir problem will be closer to solution.
I also foresee Kashmir one day will be an independent entity, with the 2 parts merged together and at peace with both India and Pak.
Sridhar

re:#189 by tahmed32
Thanks for the post.
You did deceive the Chowk staff this time, did you not?
Do not have much to say about this Iraq business but i hope my post goes thr`. Agreed about your impressions on Gujjubania. He is young, learning and prone to mistakes.
Sridhar

punjabi-ullu urf Romair,

Sorry Maan! I try make feeble joke.
Also apology to your other isotopes...ahmadzai,kaurasach,zakkk,fosa,vertex...etc

rsridhar #175 Tariq Ali`s article about Iraq stinks. I dont understand why chowk published this article from an individual who does not show up so one can see how much depth there is to his logic.

PS: the above is a disguise i put on this post so the carrier pigeon carrying it is not shot down while flying over chowk staff lines. :-)

as for gujjubania, from his posts it appears that he is a young fellow who has not yet met too many people outside his community. so lets hope he becomes more mature as the years go by for him. i am glad though that it was indian posters on chowk who took him to task on chowk. some of us veteran posters on chowk may have our points of view, but this also shows that if people from different communities are allowed to discuss, vent their spleens, air their beefs, whatever, they ultimately do tend to develop a more realistic understanding.

as for being a ``bania``, i think that is the noblest of professions. after all, a bania makes money by providing something useful to society. i wish we were all banias. we dont need soldiers and sailors and religious gurus in society. so i am surprised why gujjubania is so defensive about being (as he thinks) looked down upon for being a bania that he has to wear it on his shirtsleeve to prove something. anyway, three cheers for ``banias`` - may we pakistanis one day all become banias.

imagine how much better iraqis would have been if saddam had ambitions of becoming a bania rather than a latter day nebuchadnazzer.

i end with iraq in the sentence above in order to comply with chowk staff`s request for people to stick to the topic of this badly written, pompous little article by that little black dwarf - as he called his newspaper - Tariq Ali who is too afraid to show up and be exposed for the lame excuse for a human being that he is. ;-)

I think the discussions of ethnicities in the make-up of a country, is very important and is related directly to Iraq, and its resistance, since Iraq consists of three major ethnicities/divisions: Sunnis, Shias, Kurds. And their behavior will decided its future. So hopefully this reply will be printed and this discussion continued, on this board.

Forceful geographical and political unions based on any concept - religion, nationalism, secularism, ethnicity, etc. - are always going to fail. Unions can only be voluntary. Yugoslavia is now fighting wars, which have there basis in events that happened 700 hundred or more years ago. Soviet Union split up in a day, when the forced unions were allowed a voice.

The solution for South Asia will always be more like EU than like USA. There is far too much history and cultural divisions for it to be like USA - which requires a more homogenous population. Unfortunately, all the leaders of South Asia have tried to force USA type solutions on the area, leading to a lot of bloodshed. They would be better off encouraging an EU type solution.

At the same time, one cannot just directly divide countries along ethnicities, just like one cannot divide them only along religion. All these factors need to be considered. Over time, as different areas unite and separate, they leave a mark on the population and its demographics. Sixty years ago, there was no Pakistani culture. Now there is, and it is distinct from a Punjabi, Baluchi etc. culture. Most well-educated Punjabis of my generation, speak much better Urdu than Punjabi. Most Pakistani Kashmiris speak better Punjabi than Kashmiri. Karachi has the highest Pathan population in the country. Educated Sindhis, invariably, live in Karachi. Sind is now as influenced by Urdu as it is by Sindhi. So a Pakistani culture will have an effect on the Pakistani Punjabi culture/ethnicity. And it will have this effect in a different way than an Indian culture having an effect on Indian Punjab. So in a hundred years from now, Indian Punjab will be different from Pakistan Punjab. And with literacy growing, Pakistani Punjab maybe a pre-dominantly Urdu speaking area, with very little growth of the Punjabi language. But both Punjabs will still have their historical Punjab culture, though in a different and probably more diluted form.

The solution to all of this is for South Asia to divided politically along its fault lines, and for people to be voluntarily allowed to separate, leave etc., any union they do not like. Then for all those individual states to come together in an economic union, voluntarily; much like the EU. This is the only formula that has worked in Europe.

In the end, it is economic unions and not political or geographical unions, that result in the successful future of a country. I am more interested in going to a Dhaka where I can set up an office easily, even if it is not a part of political Pakistan, then to a Dhaka which is part of a political Pakistan, but whose people do not want me to set up an office there.

I think Pakistan has split up along its natural fault lines. Everybody and every province who is part of it now, is there voluntarily. Bangladesh may have also reached that stage. While India and Sri Lanka have not.

My vision of a successful South Asia consists of, all individuals being allowed to live in politically independent states they want to live in, with no forced geographical unions. Looking at the fault lines today, this would result in at the minimum seven or eight independent countries (more if others want to separate) - Nepal, Bhutan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Bangladesh, India, Sri Lanka (maybe two countries) - which exist in a strong economic union, with a single currency, open visas with no checks on the borders, complete free-trade, completely free movement of capital and humans and material, with no work-visa restrictions. And it would be a nuclear free zone, with severe restriction on offensive weaponry purchases. With a NATO type joint military force to handle external threats (there won`t be any).

Each country in this union, would manage its own domestic politics through its own national govt. And its foreign policy could be managed through a united body. This united body would also run the NATO-like military forces. The head of that body could rotate amongst all states, with India being the head every alternate time, due to its size. So an Indian head, then a Pakistani head, then an Indian head, then a Bangladeshi head, then an Indain head; so on and so forth.

This is the only thing that will work. There is no history of South Asia being peaceful under forced geogrphical unions. Forced unions will, invariably, lead to freedom struggles and conflicts between South Asian nations forever. History has proven it. Just look at what happened in Yugoslavia, even after hundreds of years of a forced union.

super-bania

~~but believe me or not , if you ever come face to face with me and say the stuff you said here , I will beat the life out of you.~~

I have not laughed so much in years! Thanks for cheering me up you puny little coward.

;)

ironman

Jokes are supposed to be funny. Dont bother trying to make a joke unless it is going to be funny, or you wll look like an idiot.

super-bania

You have a boyfriend now. Congratulations.

Nice to see one person identify himself, rightly or wrongly, as a `Bania` and hundreds of years of momin and pseudo-momin teachings come out in open (cowering with fear, wet his pants, sells his mom ....) Thanks momins and their fellow travellers. Nice to be reminded. Dont worry, we are all banias here in India now, even most (or the best) of our muslims, except for a minority of our Punjabis, who are still pseudo-momin. Lucky they, must be the wind coming from across the border.

By the way, the 1000$ GNI per capita difference that gujjubania was referring to is there in this year`s World Bank report, and also in the Human Developement Reports of UNDP this year.

On to a $2000 difference in 5 years. Whatdyasay? Could be done.


(Hope this goes through, even partially. Been a little late in joining the fun, after the Chowk staff warning and all that. What to do? Being a lurker rather than a poster, dont have a habit of jumping in.)

As SR has so rightly pointed out, the historical ethnic identities may find a more logical and peaceful co-existance togather than the nationhoods based on religion or expediency of time. These ethnic identities with thousands of years of history, their own language & culuture, their own poets and their own literature, are homogenous, confident and at peace with themselves.

Some like Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtoons, Baluchis, Bengalis, Biharis are well defined.

May be some one can enlighten me as to which are the other major nationalities inside India?

Sohail, 182

Since Chowk Staff does not want the topic of Ethnicity to be discussed on this board, I`ve opened this topic ``Punjabis and Others`` at Chaathouse Unplugged. I`d welcome your, or anyone else`s, comments there.

Despite the stern warning from Chowkstaff (#181) I would like to humbly comment on a remark lamenting ethnic pride among South Asians.

#164 [``...It’s truly sad ... world is getting away from the curse of ethnicity... if Chowk... a gauge, South Asia... is emphasizing ethnicity. ...a cancer that destroys the social fabric of a nation. ...South Asia is doomed... with its emphasis on ethnicity.``]

Further down the interactor (godot) writes that this ``destroys nations`` and goes on to imply that this `divide and destory` tactic is working to ``someone else`s`` advantage, though he never says whose?

First of all, there are not just two, three, four or five nations in South Asia. One can argue that Bangaladesh and Nepal are nations in the correct sense of the term, but not the other countries. Even Sri Lanka has a hard time convincing everyone of being ONE nation. But I suspect, the interactor wasn`t thinking of Bangladesh or Nepal or even Sri Lanka. I suspect he had Pakistan and Bharat on his mind. To suggest that those two are two NATIONS is to totally divorce one`s self from reality and buy into a state-sponsored fiction.

South Asia is much like the European continent where multiple nations reside side by side. For a few odd occasions (sometimes lasting decades or even a century or two at a time) during its history large parts of Europe were consolidated under one empire and several nations were brought to be subjects of the particular empire of the day. Rome, Hapsburgs, Third Reich and the Soviet system come to mind. However, as soon as the compelling force dissipated, the various nations took charge of their own affairs, yet continued to be Europeans and ulimately saw the wisdom of cooperating with each other.

South Asia is similar. For a few odd occasions (sometimes lasting decades or even a century or two at a time) during its history large parts of South Asia were consolidated under one empire and several nations were brought to be subjects of the particular empire of the day. Maurya, Mughal, British and the present system come to mind.

Perhaps some day our great grand children will see a subcontinent of several proud nations who shall have acquired the wisdom of cooperating with each other.

The real curse, if there is one here, is blind loyalty and subservience to a state machinery and not identification with your ethnicity.

...SR