Resistance is the first step towards Iraqi independence

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are you ever think before write this article even for one time what happened to iraq if usa left them in middle.who rule iraq? only one thing happen. civil war and chaos.only thugs rule.even single leader in iraq today who had figure of larger then life or respected by every iraqis? they kill each other.dont tell now UN or blah blah.everyone know wht happened to UN adminstratered countries.argument of yours good to hear but impracticle to impliments.this bathist thugs not enemy of america but iraq.they exploit iraq for 20 years and kill ppl as shamelessly even changizkhan or tikkakhan turn in their graves.if this fanatices are not cause troubles in iraq daily then i believe in 10 year iraq is turn out as other japan or singapor

Great article.

There seems to be a pattern to US interference that many conspiracists have also used in their arguments. It seems like Iraq will be another Afghanistan with displaced populations, ruined economies and complete lack of any kind of order. But I dont see Iraq as a failure for the USA just yet. USA will probably do anything and everything to control this insurgency. Learning to be colonial is not difficult. So yes, US is a colonial power now, the fine lines if they were ever more than rhetoric are getting more and more difficult to justify.

I agree with saimashah. All US has to do is to make compromises with France Germany and Russia. The Iraqi booty is just so enormous that even with these compromises US wont loose anything. These ``diplomatic efforts`` combined with a few massacars in Iraq and probably syria will definitely calm down the insurgency in Iraq. After these compromises are made the rest of the world may not even know about those massacars until probably next century.

US is not getting out of Iraq. Period; even if there is a regime change in US the new president will make compromises with these three countries. These three countries are not paragon of morality either. They were the worst colonizers and have brought untold misery upon human beings. And this is an opportunity of a life time.

Tariq:

(in case you decide to interact) welcome!

Urstruly:

US is not getting out of Iraq. Period; even if there is a regime change in US the...

...never say never;)

...t

Hallibuton and Texaco are onto fixing the oil wells by pumping some big dollars.
The presence of 160,000 US troops in the Iraq.
Sanctioning of $30 bn in near future.

Mr T. Ali ... I DONT SEE ANY US MEN GETTING OUT OF IRAQ SO SOON.

What we can expect is a UN resolution (which everyone will agree to anyhow) and then to land peace keeping forces by support of India, Pakistan and Turkey. I think the homework is already done by the visit of Saudi Crown to Pakistan.

This is a well-balanced article giving pros and cons of an occuptaion free Iraq.

I would like to reproduce here what I posted somewhere else with minor modifications for this topic:

What I would say is that it depends whether all Iraqis have taken up arms against American military or are they few extremists from all over the world pulling an Afghanistan on the USA this time. If it is latter, then I will say from our experience that we should side with the Americans or we will be left with total chaos if the latter decide to leave.

My mind says that Iraqis would be much better off accepting the Americans for the time and letting them bring the good like they did in post WWII Japan and Germany.

But my heart says that why allow the ``foreign occupation forces`` on my soil? My patriotism will never allow that.

Perhaps Americans found Japanese and Germans to be easy going, because their entire population was defeated (All Japanese had special devotion to their King and accepted defeat when the King urged them to do so post atom bombs and almost all Germans fought the war till the end and were exhausted). Not so in Iraq. Only the scoundrel Saddam and his ilk were defeated, not an average Iraqi for he had never sided with the former gangsters.

But since I have a Pakistan residency, I would speak for Pakistan. Musharraf`s/ Jamali`s Government did the right job of not sending the troops against all speculations. Because of our correct stance, both MMA Mullas and PPP Jiyalas were proven wrong and are now cutting a sorry figure on this account. We stood by what was right thing to do. We sacrificed FTA with the USA, but then it was a matter of principles. Bikaoo countries like Thailand and Philippines (with a Mega-Pagal Array Oye Abay Oye in power), who sent their troops, were immediately rewarded with FTAs.

Ah!! Tariq Ali. The self-proclaimed athiest (apostate?) with an Islamic culture. One of my favorite commentators on international affairs.

Agree with pretty much everything you have stated.

Americans are stuck big time. Even the apologists of this invasion, now require their own apologists.

It is impossible for 140,000 troops to control a population of 22 million, in an area the size of California, through a social system and infrastructure, which is completely broken. Even if they had the best and most noble intentions, they cannot be successful, as an occupying power. Iraq, in my opinion, is in the pre-Afghanistan stage. The only thing left is civilians groups fighting each other. Iraq, a country, that used to be a pretty good place to live – at least better than Pakistan (and probably India), since people regularly migrated from Pakistan (and India ??) to Iraq – has been destroyed by two forces.

In its final analysis, I think history will define those forces as: 1) Saddam Hussain and his loyalists 2) USA.

It is about time, people realized that a civilian killed by an American military attack, cannot be considered, “collateral damage.” And a civilian killing an occupying soldier is not a, “terrorist.” On the contrary, in the former case, the military attackers are committing state terrorism. And in the later case, the civilian is a freedom fighter.

Tariq Ali:
Will it be too much to hope for you to interact here?
Yes, it is the beginning of a guerrila warfare in Iraq, even though the resistance is largely concentrated so far in the Sunni triangle north of Baghdad. It is easy to predict a few things:
-things will continue to get worse for the US as it tastes its ``karmon ka phal``;
-US will make significant compromises for a UN role in Iraq;
-the opposition to Bush will get stronger at home as more and more people realise that this war was called on false pretext and as more dead bodies return home;
-the reluctance of other countries to send troops to Iraq will increase as they foresee the `hot welcome` awaiting them;
-Besides Turkey, Pakistan is among the likeliest to come to Uncle Sam`s rescue if Bush is willing to pay an appropriate political and commercial renumeration;
-the arab street will celebrate each defeat of the US.

It is difficult to predict certain other things:
-Will the UN accept the bait and agree to assume a larger role in Iraq and accept the wrath of the resisters there?
-Will the Vietnam syndrom take hold in the US?
-Will the Bush govt. continue to pay the escalating price of staying in Iraq?
-Can it afford to lose face and withdraw without accomplishing its task?
-What will be the future of Iraq if the US does a Vietnam there?
....Mr Ali does not provide any answers to these questions!

Good article and interactions.

What is `interesting` now is the alternative strategies that will be devised. The funny thing is, even if compromises are drawn with the French and Russians and Germans, it`s hard to see how that will calm the Iraqi resistance.

What`s even funnier is that the Muslim neighbors would probably want Iraq to be ruled by colonials for sometime.

Conflicting interests are fuel for chaos!

The Other Iraqi Intellectuals as reported by Amir Taheri for NR

Here are the words of other Iraqi intellectuals who Tariq Ali wouldn`t want to acknowledge:

``These people are mad,`` said Awad Nasser, one of Iraq`s most famous modernist poets. ``They are actually signing up to sacrifice their lives to protect a tyrant`s death machine.`` (Referring to the Human Shields who wanted to go to Iraq to prevent the War of Liberation)
Referring to the phony moral indigantion of the likes of Tariq Ali, Mr Nasser said.
``Are these people ignorant, or are they blinded by hatred of the United States?`` Nasser the poet demanded.

Fadel Sultani, president of the National Association of Iraqi authors had this to say to the anti-war, crocodile-tear shedding crowd:

``Did they not realize that oppression, torture and massacre of innocent civilians are also forms of war? Are the antiwar marchers only against a war that would liberate Iraq, or do they also oppose the war Saddam has been waging against our people for a generation?``


Hashem al-Iqabi, one of Iraq`s other leading writers and intellectuals maintained,

``The death and destruction caused by Saddam in our land is the worst since Nebuchadnezzar,`` he said. ``These prosperous, peaceful, and fat Europeans are marching in support of evil incarnate.`` He said that, watching the march, he felt Nazism was ``alive and well and flexing its muscles in Hyde Park.``

Re Ahmedzai

``This is a well-balanced article giving pros and cons of an occuptaion free Iraq.``

Well-balanced?

Funny for an article so well balanced it doesn`t mention the exiled poets and intellectuals who welcomed the liberation. There is no reference to the pirated vidoes which show Saddam personally supervising his henchmen unleashing canines to finish off their bloodied torture victims. Not a word about the mass graves or rape camps. Yeah, very balanced
indeed.

``Bikaoo countries like Thailand and Philippines (with a Mega-Pagal Array Oye Abay Oye in power), who sent their troops, were immediately rewarded with FTAs. ``

Those `bikanoo` countries each have GDP`s several sizes that of the `principled` nation and each of them have elected rulers unlike the `principle` prevailing in the Land of the Pure. FTAs mean jobs which is far more `principled` than the regular hand-out tranches your `principled` folks get from IMF, courtesy of the United States. Please...don`t cover your envy with the sick gloss of phony `principles`.

Mr. Ali: Aren’t we engaging in the world’s favorite pass time, “wishful thinking of how to give America a black eye - a bloody nose”. It reminds me of the same joyous shrieks which came out of most of the world after 9/11.You have pointed out just about every thing that could trip America in Iraq, but please consider the fate of the ordinary Iraqi who just wants to get on with his life. Would you say that if America is humiliated and decides to quit Iraq, would it be good for the common Iraqi?

Up till now there are no indications of America stealing or plundering Iraq. It is busy trying to revive the economy, rebuild the infrastructure, and create a civil society there. There is transparency in its actions, a free and vibrant press with freedom for Iraqis to say what they wish and travel outside the country. Iraqis have a golden opportunity to avail themselves of this chance as the window of opportunity can close pretty quickly. If these attacks continue all America has to do is declare the interim government sovereign and tell the Iraqis to manage their own security situation with only one caveat. Not to allow a religious theocracy to take over the country or some other faction which is tremendously opposed to western interests. This they can accomplish by a couple of divisions permanently stationed there.Would that be better, please consider it from an Iraqi’s point of view.

Countries like people have a background. America just does not have the make up of becoming a colonial power. It would continue to move towards elections however unsuitable they may be. What America does have is a background of rebuilding and turning previous enemies into well-wishers. Even now Americans enjoy deep gratitude and admiration from both Germans and Japanese. Lets be positive and support America in making Iraq a stable democracy with a strong economy in our neighborhood.

.......... so what is tariq ali going to do - set up another tribunal that no one comes to ?

........... whine, whine, whine ..........this is so much drivel, with corporal clueless piling on with more innanities like ``It is impossible for 140,000 troops to control a population of 22 million, in an area the size of California``................ we forget that the british were able to control a population of 200 million with less than 40,000 troops, in an area the size of india .............and our forefathers were so grateful that they signed up in droves to fight for the man in the jungles of burma and the deserts of north africa ...........ata was eight annas a maund, and doodh-walas ran scared and wouldn`t dare add water to their milk........... as a matter of fact, the worst day of our miserable lives was when they abandoned us to our own devices in 1947..........

.......... so it is with the bedouins of iraq ......... finally they have some civilized people around to kick them in shape and drag them into the twentieth century .............only fools and hopless romantics would say that the iraqis are not better off today than they were under saddam ........ my biggest fear is that the crawford crusader will listen to political hacks like karl rove and pull out too soon, leaving the poor iraqis at the mercy of suiciders ............

Hello Tariq Ali Khan,

as I wrote last year, our ``Street Fighting Days`` are over.

It is good to see your writing here on CHOWK which I had hoped woud fill in for

the absence of the old Pakistan Progressive, but after seeing old Progressives published

here, I was no longer sure.

There is an absence of logic in parts of US policy in Iraq.

As one who was elated to see Saddam go (but not via war and invasion)

I had hoped for a better exit plan then what confronts us today.

Next time you visit Berkeley, let more CHOWKIES know.

My last report on your visit at:

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2002/May/10/01.html

got mixed reviews.

Please do interact here. It would help some of us to revisit some lost ideals.

Ras

The article appeared previously in several South Asian print publications which are always giddy to find a desi living in the West who finds the West horrible. Tariq Ali, who also co-authored a hate-filled booklet last year fits the bill perfectly. Unfortunately, he is representative of many whose moral clarity is blinded by the shroud of their knee-jerk anti-Americanism. In his case (and that of many European leftists) they hate the fact that their utopia of Communism bit the dust and left the US the sole superpower. Having not come to term with this fact yet (even though psychological help is covered by socialized medicine in most EU countries), they take every opportunity to bash America.

Then there are those who anti-Americanism has a religious dimension in that they think of the US, with its represenatative govt, free markets, free speech, and relatively free society as being offensive to their ideas about a Divinely mandated system. To such folks Saddam was a bad guy but Americans are far worse.

Neither one of them has much moral high ground on the issue because by opposing the liberation of Iraq, they are, inter alia, endorsing the brutality of the Baathist regime. Anyone who claims that the Coalition shouldn`t have moved into Iraq to remove Saddam is, in effect, endorsing the Saddam regime whether they claim the excuse of sovereignty or something else. Those who opposed the war and are opposing the resultant freedoms of the Iraqis, are actually defending:

+Chemical warfare of Halabja
+The execution of dissidents
+The rape of hundreds of Iraqi girls by Uday and Qusay
+The underground prisons where thousands were held for decades without trial
+The execution of anyone who said or printed anything not expressly permitted by Saddam
+The building of lavish palaces with gold plated cutlery while Iraqi kids starved
+The murder of an unknown number of Kuwaitis

This is what Saddam stood for. Those opposing his removal today ought to ask if they want to counted in the same category of moral delinquents.