Resistance is the first step towards Iraqi independence

gujjubania,

I am glad India is doing well. Yet wisdom and graciousness demands that all of us be sensitive to the ravages of poverty, no matter where the scourge strikes.

Sadna,

Pakistani government is not poor. Neither has any misfortune befallen Pakistani generals. It`s ordinary people. And it`s difficult to feel animosity toward ordinary people.

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re: Godot # 138

Godot ji,

Mr. Jay shouldn`t take the blame for my sins. I am the guilty party here. I should have conveyed a more nuanced understanding on this important matter.

Hindu feelings with regard to the Muslim rule in India and Pakistan are much more complex. No Indian, Hindu in particular, associates Pakistan with the Moghul rule, the Taj Mahal, the Red Fort, Akbar, or Bahadur Shah Zafar, or any of the great Muslim poets and Sufis. These are all accepted, with great pride, as part of India`s inheritance.

Forget Akbar and Taj Mahal, no Hindu will take you seriously if you claimed that Muglai food was Pakistani food!

Yet, there does exist an association between Pakistan and the Muslim rule over Hindus. In fact, it is probably worse than what you may consider fair.

Pakistan gets tied to the worst aspects of the Muslim history. It is associated not with Akbar and Dara Shikoh but with Ghori, Ghaznavi, Aurangzeb and Abdali. It gets associated with Somnath but not with Tajmahal. It is seen as the child of Pan Islamists in Indian history, not Muslims who were Indian nationalists. It represents not the Muslims who shared their joys and sorrows with Hindus, but the Muslims who, after ruling over Hindus for a thousand years, decided they could not stay together with them.

Thus Pakistan gets the short end of the stick when it comes to its association with the Muslim rule. The reason for that, is not that Hindus don`t want to share the good parts of the Muslim rule with Pakistanis, but that to them, Pakistanis appear to be interested only in the bad parts.

Among the `them` I must include myself. You cannot imagine the degree of loathing I feel for Pakistan when I see its government celebrating Ghoris, Ghaznavis, and Abadalis as its national heros. Luckily, we Hindus do not believe that Pakistan is or can ever be powerful enough to repeat the karname of these gentlemen.

It`s difficult to see that Pakistan as a nation, or at least its ruling class, has inched past its vision of the Muslim rule over Hindus. From the point of view of Hindus in India (generally speaking), it would be far better to forget these people, and focus on common, happier times that both Hindus and Muslims had under the Muslim rule.

So you see how this is all quite complicated. We do not mind sharing the Moghul inheritance with Pakistanis, if they are interested, but find the idea that Pakistanis are heirs to the Moghul rule quite silly. On the other hand, unfairly perhaps, we are happy to think of Pakistanis as heirs to the most detestable names in Indian history, because Pakistanis themselves have thought it fit to keep reminding the Indians and world of these names.

I am beginning to fear you wil not consider me very rational now :(

Gujjubania

Jihadis are mostly poor people, but these jihadis are as much victims of their financiers and instigators as are you and I. Please think about that.

I am not preaching love toward Jihadis. Nobody can love such a thing, let alone a human being. Please keep in mind: neither to you nor to the manufacturers of Jihadis, does a Jihadi have a total value greater than a bullet or a bomb used to kill human beings, a bomb or bullet that can be purchased for a few dollars in any bazaar.

When somebody declares war on you, do you hate the bullets they use? Surely, you avoid and neutralize those bullets when they are coming to harm you. But ultimately, you must reserve your hatred and energies to be used againt those who fire those bullets in your direction.

Yes, it is possible to sympathize with the poor people even in Pakistan, even though some of them are turned into Jihadi killing machines. In a different environment, they would have had better things on their mind. Up until 1980s, they did.

AnOrdinaryHindu

gujjubania is a coward who talks big but wets his pants if he has to look sombody in the eye and front them down. Nasty little thug and a coward.

Oi Super-Bania! Keep counting your money in the corner of the room you common little thug.

#113 Romair... Please read below my response to your enquries.

1. About water resource Management and its effect on our country.
It will be wrong to say this development taking is under influence of Indians. This idea of useing water from Kabul river ( Major water comes to Kabul from other tributaries, as every body knows the so called river passing through Capital of A.stan is not big river at all.) is old one and the time of that idea has now chance. The indian engineers are workinhg on this river project ( major tributary of Kabul river) in planning stage. Frutation may take years. Wapada says the contribution of Kabul which enters not too far from tarbella water project is about 25 MAF. Harza Engineers as well as British firm employed earlier times quote around 20 MAF. Obviously the flows are varying every year and this year is very good after many years of decling amount of flow. Experts give total flow of Sindhu Darya system erom 115 to 140 MAF. So 20 MAF is significant amount by any standard. Pakistan govt is requesting to have river valley projects than big storage projects. This request is similar to treaty that obliges India ( They can store water for Flood controls ,power generation but can not divert). There is no treaty between both nations and Afghans can do any dam they want. This water has its character. Kabul TRANSPORTS MAXIMUN AMOUNT OF SILT than any tributary of Indus. A.Stan is bare country and no significiant vegetation and steep ravines and no efforts at all to stop erosion leads to huge sediment transportation when there is influx of water. This huge sediments are transported and deposited in Tarbela lake and effectively reducing capacity to storage water and put great restraints on power generation. All turbines are designed for high heads of water. At this time the water is flowing unhindered but soon the influx will reduce ( similar to what sindh is under going at this time). Also as water flow will be reduced it wil definitely affect the recently opened work on Gazi B. project in power generation. There is hardly anything one can do as Afghans are not known for nicities or keeping words. ( Durand line even Taliban rejected , also its good thing to have for afghan rulers). In case Outfalls and water is returned to main water sources they usually give bad, over minaralied and fertiled overflows from fields.

2.India is not active in sense they are just helping A.stan, its afghans finally who will decide what to do. India can help if asked but can never over ride these critical decisions.
It is not reasonable to expect India to be friendly. The peace efforts can not be done by both sides as the the demands of both nations are impossible to be satisfied at same time. India wants to hold IHK and we want full Kashmir. The negotations can take place on marginal issues but central questions can not be solved at this time. This Central questions will only be decided by steel and blood and there is no end in sight. Recently Mr. A.Amir of Dawn been to India he wrote a congress MP told is maximum ANY GOVT in Delhi will come to LOC as International Border and nothing more nothing less.
You are right water is mainstay of life and so warring nations will use to hurt otherside. If this things are not settled soon I can bet over long term Indians will do start Diversion. Presently this type of discussion has started in India and Indian political circles have started giving different versions. Other thing is Indians NEED WATER and there is undeclared war going everyday, 5 to 10 people are killed every day on average. If you have read the President of India MR. APJ Abdul Kalam is fan of joining Indian rivers and there was a report of NRI from USA meeting him and Mr. Wajpai and explaining what is that. Mr. Wajpai has supported that Idea and even some states are putting thinking on that matter. There is natural southernward slope to indian Peninsula. Once Indus water is lifted over its towering height gravity flow can take place. Daming water will raise the height of water easily few hundred feets and either water can be pumped by huge Pumps or tunnels ( like penstocks can be built through mountains and then even pumping theoretically not required.) If standard Indian nuclear power plant packs of 10 of each 200 MW will provide sufficient energy to transport. The states will happily contribute to have assured water for irrigation and Industry. This things are not fantacies but Nations are doing that all time. Even members of Islamic nations have done it. Turkey has by buildinhg huge dams have made Southern marshes of Iraq history and rivers which use to narish Syria are going dry. Iraq and syriya shouted lot but world gave damn to their cries. China is thinking of diverting Brahmaputra to wards west for arid region which is going to kill Bangla Desh. Bangla desh India can shout but nothing can be done about things happening other country. Amrican are sweet talker and they have pumped water from colorado to california , arizona so much at end of river when it enters MEXICO COUNTRY its sewer drain, the river water disappears. Economically it makes sense to have water and cripple pakistan , this cost can be treated as cost for war by other means, just like pakistan spends money and men for 100 bleeds. One should keep in mind EVEN MARGINAL lifting of water can devastate the pakistan. By 2030 our population is projected from 300 to 350 million ( we will be forth largest country in world), shortage of water, unefficiencies in water usage in Agricultural, domestic water usage, industrial usage and tensions due to water shortage in provinces. Worst than our 1000 cut attacks. (2100 Cubic meter/ perreson per day 1947, to to day 900 CU M. / today to 450 CU M/ per day 2030 the experts give this numbers). Recently General president is going all over world and telling how to improve Muslim ummah ( malaya), how to improve relationship of nations in China etc it will be better he and his administarion can think in realiastic terms the futue and find inovations to improve relationship with india. Let us hope they study and look around. Kurds, Tibettan. Ughars chechans are there so kashmir is one of them. Army needs to seek compromise, 100 cut policy is nonpolicy. It is not working, army as final decider and defender of faith and future need to decide how much to sacrafice for Kashmir and come out openly , let nation decide. Avoiding telling truth is not going to solve problem. Unfortunately we have no voice, even prime minister has no voice except as loud speaker for president. So army has to decide, if they want to snatch it let it be policy and let us fight for it and let army lead from front and people will stand behind them. Army has not been smart, they make wrong assumption like in 1965 war India will not cross border. They did without hesitation. After war terrority was returned but once water lifting starts we will be just helpless as marsh Iraqis are aginst Indians. Once they hooked to that extra water we will permantanly disadvantaged. I hope army`s thoughtless had lead to ruins , let us hope they will think for next century. I many times laments this 55 years journey has been from nowhere to nowhere.

3. Division of Punjab : this like treating symtomps. It can lead to 3 times senators from Punjab and more resentment. May be better to administer ( former state of Bahawalpore can be one state with local punjabi version).
Sindhi ( Urdu areas)- Karachi- Hyderbad state and second Sindhi speaking state
B. Stan is problem as except Quetta where is population ? Can there be Pathan and Baloch provinces? ( one state for pathans and one for Balo. people). It is my prediction Baloach are much milder than Pathans and just like sindh we are going to have Pathan/ Baloach problem just like Mohajir/ sindhi speakers in Sindh.
This will lead to same resement problems as between Sindhis and Mohajirs ( and no falut of any community).
F. Admin. Areas of NWFP and B.stan can be state.

I have no real feeling if division of punjab is solution.
The problem is hatred of Punjabis. ( Punjabis are aggressive and industrious and shrewd and if required can be mean if money is involved. While sindhis are REALLY mild people. Majority Sindhis in Sindh are rural people, depressed, unemployed, fetalist , unsatisfied and convinced as if personally he is looted by Punjabi. There is hopelessness in Rural sindh, they feel they are nothing. Being rural and ruled by their lords have no sofistication compared to Mohajirs. There just no comparison betwwen sindhis and mohajirs. The average poor sindhi burns aginst Punjabi and mohajir due jalousy, greed and ENVY. He can only think of loosing of whole major cities to Mohajirs, like karachi, Hyderbad, sukkar etc.)
Its psycological problem than real problem. Its fashion to blame all on Punjab. Even poor sindhi and Baloch living in Karachi blames Punjabis who know for sure its all money making operations are by water Mafia and ranger gangs. He knows a Punjabi residing in lahore has nothing to do but they will blame punjabis.

Pathans are real smart people. They and their leaders will cry against punjabis with sindhi and baloachis but after protest speeches will party with hated Punjabis.

4.I have never been to either kashmir also not much proper feeling. I agree ladakh and Jammu people will never agree to go with pakistan.
Meek integration does not work but ``strong`` integration does not work but no problems are created, example Kurds in Iran, Germans in Russia, Ughars in China, Tibetans in china, arabs in Kuzestan(Iran).

5.India will give beathing space to our army if Pakistani Army wants. For it is in interest of them. India has not much different than most nations with neighbours. Our record is no better we are at war with India for last 50 years and durand is never accepted by Afghans. We are actively involved in war in both countries very intimatrely.

Setting condition for India is no starter. Just like china India is major counrty and civilisation. China has largest army, its buying ships, planes, missiles from RUSSIA, ISARAEL, FRANCE. It has great military iIndustral complex. Ask youself are they going to be attacked by any of its neighbours or any other counrty today? Why they are ``wasting all that money``? You will get answers. ( Also India is poor and still buying arms / why not caring for poor etc are not serious questions to me. These are Rhetoric questions, I will not answer.)
We can be friend with China and we are .That is not going to protect us in future wars. A third rate extremely poor country India (at that time) destroyed pakistan aginst wishes of China and America and all allied Muslim Ummah together could not save pakistan .

For getting answers to (5) you can find answers youself they are self evident. Just consider yourself as you are prime minister of India and and you will be able understand all what is going with india. Some times best act is no act. Just become prime minister of India and you are sitting in Wajpais Chair. Then all things India does will appear clear. Its difficult but try it you may find most answers.

If you are looking for answers go to source and for that you will have to swim against current.

6. Bangla desh was worst thing happened to Pakistan but best thing to B. Desh.
It was demoralising to say the least. This demolished all innocence about two nation theory and led to Sindhi ( jiye sindh) and baloach problems. The baloach insurgency which needed to be put down Ruthlessly by Bhutto was direct outcome of bangladesh. This lead to reinforcement of resentment of minorities provinces and hatred of Punjab in general. This was most devastating blow to indian muslins psuche. All hypocracy, bigorty, racial animosity, ruthless killing by army was exposed. Till now Pakistani army was victorious by their own standards and in people mind and imaginations. The total uncompetitant conduct of war exposed myth and nation changed for ever. The last Cherished Institution lost all respect nor for defeat but also for nonfightening and immoral practices .
One othe worst thing happened to pakistan was one of educated, thinking,literary (excuseme to say) MORE CULTURED people and their ethos was gone. Bengalis love poetry, music, literature they are not people just with agriculture as culture, they are soft people with great appreciation. (I am Punjabi nominally but sindhi really as lived all life in Karchi). What Punjabis lack is selfrespect. Language is culture, they stood up to Quaid and did not accept crappy idea of urdu when you have great language as mother tongue. They stood and faught and delivered themselves for better.
It is fashion to say good damn we got rid of bloody bengalies but inside we all know its not true. If bengal was part of Pakistan today we would be doing better.

One of worst thing happened the army learnt bad things to go away with crime. The shameless killers and cowards like tikka, Farman Ali .... were never prosecuted. They learnt once any crime will be done and nothing happens. What army and rangers did to Mohajirs in 80/90s was same as killing of wholesale Bengalies. I do not like mohajirs in general due to aggressive and clanish attitude but there men were brutally murdered by army. Only person who has lived in Krachi through that time can understand anguish of Altaf Bhai.
I honestly feel loss of bangla desh was very bad thing happened to Pakistan.
If you have good friend and gentkleman and you are bad man and he decides to part you company. Is it good for him but bad for you. It is perverse pleasure to celebrate onces bad behavious.
I am aware almost all pakistani feel it was good that we broke, but really differ inthis matter.

Mr. Romair I have answered honestly. I never mean any viciousness to any body. So if some thing I said hurts anybody I feel sorry about that and ask for forgivence.

I wish good lick to all readers.
I am late but wish Indians good wishes for festival of lights and happy new year.

I just returned from Iraq last week. It was a holy trip to najaf, karbala, baghdad and samara (on the road to tikrit/mousul). I have the following observations:

Baghdad- Samara. US forces are on trigger alert. It is still a war zone (even saw a US vehicle burning on the road to tikrit). Heavly presence of troops in the area. The occupiers are isolated from the public and I think it will stay like this for time to come.

Karabala. Relatively quite and peaceful. Except for a few gunshots near the Imam Husain`s mosque with Iraqi police (in blue uniforms and AK-47s) chasing some so called theives. The only visible US presence was in the outskirts of karbala at the old Baath Hotel and such.

Najaf. Quite hustle and bustle. Heard a bomb go off in the distant at maghrib time. Again US is staying mostly away from inner city and Imam Ali`s mosque. Did see some US armoured personnel and Humvees partoling near the masjid Kufa. US troops are visible at the check points (road between karbala and najaf) and have barracks there. In the south najaf and southern part its mostly the spanish guarding the checkpoints.

As compared to last year (when I visited during Sadam`s time), Iraq is more serene and relatively less tense for most of the Iraqi people. The US occupiers are a lesser evil than the previous regime. Its not going to be easy for the occupiers to either stay or even leave if they wanted to. The situation will turn volatile and tribal, inter-religious, ethnic blood shed will most likely follow if they leave any time soon.

godot/tahmed:
I think there was too much generalisation in godot`s statment about how Hindus view Pakistan and how Pakistanis view India. While the rise of a muslim hating hindutva (represented by gujjubania on chowk - not Jay, his hatred is more Pakistan than Muslim-specific) is an undeniable fact in India, it is by no means pervasive - not yet, anyway. And the Indian resentment against Muslims, ironically manifested itself after a local incident, the Shah Bano case. There was no anti-muslim wave in India after the 1965 and 1971 wars - indeed the media-presumably encouraged by the govt.- went out of its way to highlight the heroic role played by the muslims in the army.

And Pakistani view of India is not without historical prejudices and bias. Afterall it names its offensive weapons after heroes -those too not Pakistanis but Afghans, Arabs and Persians-whom the hindus hate. It is hard to read Pakistani newspapers -even the moderate english ones- without seeing this bias on display. But there are also many Pakistani journalists who are unbiased and unprejudiced. Khaled Ahmed talks about this bias in today`s Daily Times, as follows:

``The host was pretending to be righteous on false grounds when he said that Indian films carried anti-Pakistan comment. We do it all the time on film and TV and do it with such lack of taste that it is obscene. Actor Yusuf Khan says his best film was the one in which he killed numberless Hindus. Our media have a Hindu stereotype (cowardly, ugly, cunning, cruel, scheming, hating) and indignity is heaped on India by showing a Hindu girl falling in love with a Muslim religious warrior. And she invariably abandons her cruel parents to side with our pious warrior! PTV did it even with its play on the Jallianwala Bagh massacre!``

I have always been a great votary of people-to-people contact. Not because it will solve all the problems between the two countries, but because it will hopefully lead to people thinking of their counterparts on the other side of the divide as humans and not ogres.

SterlingCrown #149 Finally....someone who actually knows what he is talking about on the subject of this article. Thank you for sharing your observations of the situation there following your recent visit to Iraq.

As one should have expected I suppose, things are more serene in Iraq for the average Iraqi than would appear from the newspapers. Before the war I had written an article on chowk supporting it on this very account: that no matter what the stated aims of the war (WMD, democracy in the middle east), it had seemed quite certain that the average Iraqi would be better off with Saddam being kicked out and the US becoming involved in trying to improve in Iraq.

I hope you will consider writing a more detailed account of your visit on chowk.

AnOrdinaryHindu #148
Things will not change until some leader stands up and says that its wrong to send young men to their premature deaths on promises of heaven when in fact the policies they die for are man-made in some government office.
That its wrong to incite potentially productive young men to throw away their lives militating against the global financial system, not in some meaningful way for some credible futuristic vision but simply to enable their leaders to make fast bucks in the same system.

Godot:

``If people start correcting the wrongs done to them based on history, what do you think this world would look like? Why speculate. Bosnia provides a very good example of it. And if you don’t call those people lunatics, what else would you call them? “Justified”? ``

I agree 100%

TAhmed:

``as a young indian, you are rightly proud of your nation`s achievements and indeed there is much that we poor pakistanis can learn from them. ``

Hhmm, u are wasting your time with Gujjubania. As a young Indian albeit one with a small penis, he has too many complexities that give rise to irrational paranoia. Better to leave well alone.

dost mittar #152 i have developed a theory after coming to chowk that there is a significant cultural difference in the subcontinent: but the divide is ethnic, not religious. and the difference is that northern western people in the subcontinent tend to be more stolid and less given to emotional upswings and downswings than those in the south and in bengal. and this is what accounts for the fact that every every other board, no matter what the subject matter, seems to swing back into the same tired refrain: how indians and pakistanis ``feel`` about one another.

this is the basis for my theory:

in pre-1971 days in pakistan nearly all east pakistani students at my college in lahore would be constantly talking east-west pakistan politics and walking around with chips on their shoulders. the rest of us had plenty of other things to discuss (girls generally). i remember one poor friend of mine who shared a room with three bengali students who said all these fellows talked about was the politics of east-west pakistan and so were driving him nuts. after 1971, many west pakistanis, after some misgivings in the months following what they saw as being the loss of part of the country, actually started commenting on how life was easier now that we no longer had to listen to the constant complaining about how east pakistan being exploited and so on.

on my first visit to bangladesh back in 1996, i was pleasantly surprised to see that (despite my expetactions based on my pre-1971 memories), the mood had swung 180 degrees and people in fact met me, a pakistani, with great warmth and even emotion (an ex-mukti bahini fellow who spent 6 months fighting us in 1971 embraced me like a long lost brother and talk with great fondness of his west pakistani colleagues in the army before 1971).

on chowk, i have noticed that this constant harping about how great india is and how bad pakistan generally comes from non-panjabi posters: the most friendly and least hostile indian posters on chowk are disproportionately panjabi - yourself, harpreet, stuka, and some new posters like this panjabizulu chap.

anyway, that is my theory and like all theories it may prove to be crap. but i present it in this idle moment for consideration by you and anyone else on chowk.

stuka #156 i wrote the post to gujjubania on the premise that a man is innocent unless proven guilty - that is, his post indicated weak self-confidence and immaturity but was not malicious (and certainly not malicious to the point of mental derangement as in case of jay).

so, i felt a nonmalicious post, even if i didnt see much point to it, deserved a respectful response. and my response was geared to assuring him that he did not need to convince me on anything that is plain to see, and nor do i as a pakistani have a need to be anything but happy to see good things happening in india.

hope all is going well with you.

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``So Stuka`s penis talk is typically Punjabi. ``

But why does your Gujju Mom love it so?