A Gory Tale of Lies, Greed and Deception

bongdongs #204 i think you should have more confidence in your country. if your reference is to pakistan (where indeed allah, army and america are important), then you are oversimplifying the situation. given differences in circumstances (historic, ideological, quality of leadership), india may well have escaped certain bad effects of taking clear sides in the cold war that pakistan got stuck with (military dictators being the main one).

tahmed

``i dont think anyone thought less of germany or japan because they chose to live under the US umbrella in the 60`s``

Both Germany and Japan had a homogenous educated populace, a tradition of quality manufacturing. These things count for a lot in the economic progress of a country.

India is a poor, fractitous country, I dont think the results would have been the same. We might have ended us as a country where ``Ram, Army and America`` ran the country :-)

ijaz_gul # various

So the great strategic mind of Pakistani army is back offering everybody his brilliant theses.

If such people pass for `strategic` thinkers in Pakistan, enemies of Pakistan should send more Dinars to schools that educated him.

:)

bong dongs #200 i dont think anyone thought less of germany or japan because they chose to live under the US umbrella in the 60`s. they were in fact seen as great success stories at the time, with west germany being called the engine of growth for all of europe in the 60`s, and japan being seen as an economic giant by the end of that decade. UK was the sick man of europe at the time, and the brits used to wonder who won WWII. and certainly, the collapse of the soviet union shows that post war germany and japan had bet on the right system and the right superpower in the 1960`s.

so i wouldnt knock a policy of keeping a low profile politically and focussing on economic progress. after all, that is pretty much the policy india has adopted nowadays, having realized at great cost that nationalism and economic progress dont mix and money talks louder than nuclear weapons. now you just have to explain it to our militarists.

Rightly or wrongly, non-alignment and total independence on strategic affairs have been corner-stones of Indian foreign policy (a ``never-again`` response to the colonial experience)

-With due respect Brazil, South Africa haven`t had to deal with a hostile nuclear armed neighbour occupying a few thousand square miles of your territory. Or another superpower backed neighbour packed to the gills with US made arms. I know that you dont think China was any threat to India after we were taught-a-lesson in `62, its just that we just learnt the ``lesson`` really well, there is no permanent ``bhai-chara`` in relationship between nations. Nehru and Menon`s ``hot air`` powered foreign policy was no match for the PLA`s plutonium backed one. Also Mao`s china was very different from Deng`s China. Upto `79 China was training Naga`s in Yunnan.

-Germay and Japan were firmly under the US nuclear umbrella. We could do the same and become yet another 3rd world country where the US state department sets your national policies. Something we could never accept.

So what option would you suggest India follow (lets imagine you are Nehru in `63)?

I cant even figure out ``harimau`` for that matter :-)

bongdongs #196 i understand that there were other factors. as i have been saying in previous posts. my point though was that ALL these factors put together had more to do with national pride than with any real strategic thinking on the part of indian leaders. this includes the rationale provided by MS. arundhati (now i know the gender!). so my reading that article simply reinforces the point i was trying to make.

In fact, in the her writeup following the bjp explosions in 1998, arundhati did not refer to pakistan at all - but named a number of other countries (germany, japan, south africa, brazil) whom she refered to slightingly as ``nuclear power wannabes``!

and incidentally, on these ``other factors`` you referred me to arundhati, she obviously didnt know what she was talking about anyway: none of these countries could hardly be called ``nuclear wannabes`` today or in 1998. germany had of course raced to build the bomb to try and win WWII - and that at least was a rational reason. after WWII, both germany and japan have been strongly against nuclear weapons. and their non-nuclearization stems from their experience with the ravages of war, not from lack of technological capacity. Even brazil, which once had plans to build the bomb, had dropped them by 1998 given up the program in order to avoid an nuclear arms race with argentina. similarly, south africa under the apartheid regime had in fact built and secretly tested the bomb according to many reports. both these countries knew better than to introduce nuclear weapons in their continents - and they certainly had the expertise to nuclearize.

but i`ll be glad to give a ``friend of pakistan (even if unwittingly)`` medal to arundhati too, along with all the other deserving people from Bhabha to indira to advani to your current president. They have worked long and hard to ensure that india can never again threaten to overrun pakistan.

Ref bongdongs #197

[tahmed,
That is strange, I would never make a mistake in identifying the gender of a ``Fatima`` or a ``Mazhar`` but you (a person who is probably a well educated elite) tripped on a simple name such as ``Arundhati`` (and a famous one at that).]

OK bongs, how about Nusrat? What gender is that name? ;-)

``arundhati ghosh and read one of his write-ups``

she ... not he :-)

The NPT/CTBT thing was to point out that there were other considerations in the `98 test.

tahmed,
That is strange, I would never make a mistake in identifying the gender of a ``Fatima`` or a ``Mazhar`` but you (a person who is probably a well educated elite) tripped on a simple name such as ``Arundhati`` (and a famous one at that).

the conclusions one can draw are interesting.

bongdongs #194 I agree. There is a long line of Unsung Heroes of Pakistan (including Dr. Bhabha and Indira down to Advani and Kalam) who have fearlessly bolstered the defense of Pakistan. As I said, with enemies like these, we dont need friends. :-)

i took your suggestion, googled arundhati ghosh and read one of his write-ups on the subject (in the Telegraph) following the explosions (in May 1998). His basic argument is that if the existing (at the time) five nations can have the bomb, and unless and until they get rid of their bombs, they are in no position to call for india to join NPT and CTBT. That is fine, but of course does not address the issue of the impact on the balance of power with pakistan.

``and that is why i think pakistan should give the Nishan-i-Haider (our highest military award) to Advani and other strategic geniuses of the bjp for services (albeit involuntary)``

In that line of argument more appropriate recepients would be people like Bhabha, PK Iyengar, Chidambaram, Kalam, Indira Gandhi i.e people who actually contributed toward building the bomb and not ``johnny-come-lately`s`` like Advani.

On the other hand conducting the test in 98 of course is significantly associated with the BJP. But the bomb has been a factor in the Indo-Pak strategic calculus since the mid 80`s , the `98 tests were but another milestone (albeit significant) in this story.

The points I am trying to make are:
- that the building of the bomb has less to do with the BJP than what you believe.
- testing in `98 is but another event (albeit significant) in the Indo-Pak nuclear story.
- also you are totally ignoring the NPT/CTBT story, please read up on the indefinite NPT extension (`95?) and any of Arundhati Ghosh`s speeches on that issue.

(Yes, thats another Arundhati too, no less articulate than the other one!!)

re: #162 by nazarhayatkhan
Thanks NHK,
You have a way of differing in a subtle way. I appreciate your input.
Sridhar

bong dongs #185 that is not what i am saying: as i wrote earlier to stuka ``if you read my posts, you will see that i am not denying that china was another factor. `` what i am saying has to do with repercussions on the indo-pakistan power balance, regardless of indian governmnent intentions. and there is no question in my mind that nuclearization shifted the balance of power from indian military superiority over pakistan to one of military parity (via nuclear standoff) between the two countries.

and that is why i think pakistan should give the Nishan-i-Haider (our highest military award) to Advani and other strategic geniuses of the bjp for services (albeit involuntary) rendered by ensuring that india would never again engage pakistan in a full scale war without being exposed to a devastating counterattack.

incidentally, if one looks at the implications for indo-chinese power balance, i personally dont think there was ever any serious danger of china attacking india, the 1962 indo-chinese fighting notwithstanding. history, geography and culture all militate against this happening. it wasnt so much cold military calculations as pride that led india to match the chinese lop nor explosions.

and it is arguable that even in case of chinese it was the same problem. pride over cold strategic calculations.

ahmedzai #190 i dont know who gopinath is, but i assume he is someone like arjun or jay who are blinded by their desire to see harm to pakistanis or pakistan. who gives a rat`s ass what the gopinaths think? as long as they cant hurt us (words on chowk dont hurt us), we are fine. and they cant hurt us for reasons i was explaining to bong dongs (who incidentally is among the majority of indians who are NOT pakistan-haters but do have good reason to be wary of what our leaders are up to).

the point is that the average joe (in the west) may be wary of muslims (for good reason, after 9/11 i hope you will agree) - but he does not possess this visceral hatreds that seem to burn among the hindutvas from india or the mullahs from pakistan.

despite all the whining by muslims in the US, the point is that after 9/11 there was no carnage of muslims of the kind that happened in gujerat after the godhra incident (and in godhra far fewer people were killed than on 9/11).

Tauheed at # 182:

1. I was referring to your post # 176. Sorry about the confusion.

2. What you have said is in direct support of what I said. You have read the books, seen exhibitions in the museums and seen documentries, etc. that have been a result of a conciencious (spell?) effort by people devoted to let the Muslim world be better known in the West. On the other hand, I was pointing out towards electronic media like BBC and CNN (add to it newspapers like NYT, WP, etc.) to which an average Gopinaath is exposed.

The average Gopinaths do not read books, do not see exhibitions and do not tune their TV set to channels showing documentries on Muslim countries and on Islam, because their mindset has already been set by biased reporting of the media that theyare exposed to every day, by the propaganda of their Government and media that they do not want to question in their mind.

I hear it from the Indian visitors to Pakistan, although few in numbers, all the time. They are unanimously impressed by what Pakistan and Pakistanis are not, that is, as painted in the western and in their own media and therefore, as etched in their minds.

tahmed,

so is it your contention that the global non-profileration regime (NPT) and chinese nuclear proliferation to Pakistan had no role in the Indian tests?

Give a fool a long enough rope, and he will hang himself.

Mushy and Saudis gave terrorists a long rope. And sure enough they used it to hang themselves (by attacking within Saudi Arabia). Now saudis and mushy have a better reason to go after the terrorists than merely (as they see it) doing the right thing. the better reason being terrorists threatening to take their own scalps.

``....Similarly, when uniformed people start doing politics, they should not expect the normal respect due to uniform. They will be treated like politicians.....:``

How can you expect others to compete in the political arena with guys who controls the guns, missiles, explosives and all the war crafts????
They cannot be treated as Politicians but as USURPERS, TRAITORS and should be hanged for TREASON>

http://www.dawn.com/2003/11/17/nat9.htm
Khar wants army to share power with politicians


By Ashraf Mumtaz

LAHORE, Nov 16: Warning that the incessant hostility between the army and the political parties may change the very geography of the country over the next few years , former Punjab governor Malik Ghulam Mustafa Khar advised both sides on Sunday to bury the hatchet and make a 10-year agreement for power-sharing.

To make the atmosphere conducive for the purpose, he said Gen Musharraf should declare a general amnesty for political prisoners including Asif Ali Zardari and those in NAB custody, and allow Benazir Bhutto, Mian Nawaz Sharif and Mian Shahbaz Sharif to return home.

At a news conference in the Lahore Press Club, he said Gen Musharraf should show ``paternal magnanimity`` and ignore any error committed by acting PML-N president Javed Hashmi.

``....They are all unanimously in awe over the openness, neatness and betterness of living of Pakistan compared to India....``

This guy has never been to the slums of Karachi..........

Pakistan had now 19.3 million housing units with a backlog of 4.3 million, which if completed can make a total of 23.6 million for a population of over 140 millions. That means that if the backlog is built on, there will be a home of some kind for an average of 6 persons, which is regarded the family unit in Pakistan.

But now with joint families splitting and nuclear families coming to live separately far more homes will be needed. So the government should be thinking of a family of four persons by the year 2010 which is a distant dream as the rents go up and homes cost more and more to build.

Pakistan needs to build 600,000 homes in a year on an average if the backlog of 4.3 million is to be completed by the year 2020 - 16 years from now.

Instead only 300,000 housing units, on an average, are being built each year. That means as the population goes on increasing the gap between the need for homes and the available homes will increase and create serious social problems.

According to the official statistics rural housing constitute 67 per cent of the homes in the country and urban homes 33 per cent, out of the 19.3 housing units in the country.

In Sindh, in particular, the total number of housing units is 4.4 million of which 48.75 per cent is rural units and 51.25 urban housing. The housing backlog in the country is about one million units but the annual construction of housing is hardly 69,000, while it needs 138,000 units annually to cover the shortfall in 20 years, according to official studies.

But let apart slums around cities like Karachi, even the settled areas are turning into slums for want of water and other basic amenities, and over-building to accommodate more and more persons.

Altaf speaks for the Indian muslims:-

Altaf says feudals don`t love country


By Our Staff Reporter

KARACHI, Nov 16: Chief of Muttahida Qaumi Movement Altaf Hussain has said the death of Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah was not a natural one. He described it as a ``murder`` in which the troika of feudal lords, generals and religious leaders was involved.

He made this comment in his telephonic address to an Iftar gathering organized by MQM`s Labour Division in Khursheed Memorial Hall, Azizabad, according to a handout released on Sunday.

Referring to the process of ushering in a revolution of the oppressed people, Mr Hussain traced the history of the feudal lords from War of Independence in 1857, formation of Indian National Congress in 1885 and creation of Muslim League in 1906.

He said the feudal lords belonging to the areas presently making up Pakistan openly opposed the Muslim league in the 1937 elections, with the result that the party lost in these Muslim majority provinces. However, when the Congress announced that it would abolish feudal system after independence, the entire lot of feudal lords joined Muslim League, he claimed.

This was the main reason why Muslim League swept the 1946 polls in the same provinces, he added. ``It was evident that the feudal lords had no love for Pakistan and they just wanted to save their estates,`` MQM chief said, adding: ``After creation of Pakistan the feudal lords decided to remove Quaid-i-Azam from their way, in connivance with the generals.

``This is a fact that has never been made public,`` he contended, narrating the journey of an ailing Quaid-e-Azam from Ziarat to Karachi and then from the airport to his residence in an ambulance having a fault and insufficient petrol. ``The ambulance had to wait at a deserted place for hours for shortage of fuel, the condition of the Quaid deteriorated further and it resulted in his death afterwards,`` he claimed.

``After the father of the nation, the first civilian prime minister of Pakistan, Liaquat Ali Khan, was shot dead in a public meeting in Rawalpindi, `` Mr Hussain said. He added that in this way the eminent leaders of Pakistan movement were removed from the scene one after the other under a well planned conspiracy.

According to the MQM chief, the feudal lords supported Gen Ayub Khan and used abusive language against Fatima Jinnah. But when an era of industrialization began during the Ayub government, the feudal lords, sniffing threat to their feudal estates, joined the religious leaders and launched an agitation, resulting in its end.

He said the feudal leaders dubbed Bengalis as traitors who were not handed over power when Awami League swept the 1970 polls. The Jamaat-i-Islami was among the parties which opposed the transfer of power to Awami League and the feudal lords as well as the generals supported them, he claimed.

``Even today the religious scholars in collusion with the army generals and feudal lords are deceiving the people in the name of religion``, he said, adding: ``They raise the slogan of Jihad to incite the religious sentiments of the public. It is a fact that no individual or organization can announce Jihad because this is the prerogative of the state or caliph``.

Nighat, in your tirade, please do not lump me with the conspiracy theorists. Take time out to ponder what I have attempted to write.

It is a fact that more than 50% of Pakistansforeign debt was spent on the irrigation sector with bulk of it on consultancies. Please have a good look at the utilisation of debt.

It is a fact that the defence expenditure of the Armed forces does not exceed 26% of the total budgetary allocation. Its right there in the budget documents. Have a good and incisive look too.

It is a fact that the armed forces ae the biggest contributers to the regulated GDP. Since most of the strenght of the forces has to live hand to mouth, they are compulsive spenders with the money flowing back into local economies.

It is a fact that the welfare organisations including Askari Bank are making substantial contributions to the national development. Please chech it up.

Armed Forces in National development have played a substantial role. Please read the writers that I have qouted. You will find enough primary sources.

So no negative insinuations please.

ahmedzai #181 i didnt write #172.

on what you write in #181: i beg to differ since my experience tells me the opposite. i have seen too many excellent documentaries on muslim culture in the west to even think for a minute that you are right. read too many outstanding books on muslim culture by western writers, seen too many outstanding exhibitions of muslim art, architecture and so forth in western meuseums.

i dont know how you got this impression that western media portrays muslims unfairly. my experience tells me that the opposite is true.

Dear brothers, rest assured, thanks Almighty I am not at all colour blind. I can give my word of honour that given a chance to elect among NS, BB or for that matter any other politician in the country, and Musharraf I would vote for Musharraf, eyes wide shut. No doubt about it. Please, be very clear, I wrote TO ELECT. Yes, if I had the liberty and freedom to choose. No way, if he or anyone tried to enforce him/herself on me and my children. No backdoor savouring, no self-styled reluctant rescue operations. That’s my bottom line.

If Musharraf has done miracles for the country and its economy (though largely through a divine intervention of 9/11, he does have a comparatively better score card than his immediate predecessors, and I gladly give him due credit for it), has that much popular support among the “silent majority”, and the military enjoys so overwhelming backing, then why not stand for elections to have legitimacy, respect and have it in black in white and force people like me to shut up. (Another story that the referendum didn’t validate any of these premises). How comes no military leader has ever succeeded in securing any public endorsement for himself in a transparent and decent electoral process?

Moreover, Pakistan has had enough of conspiracy theories, Indo-Zionist plots and Raw-Mossad schemes. Every unpleasant piece of analysis, every dissenting voice, every non-confirming argument doesn’t need to come from the so-called windows of NGOs or put forward by less patriotic expatriates. Albeit, thankfully, no one can disqualify me on these grounds, this mode of discussion is too convenient to take any serious note of.

None of the differing interactors has come up with any convincing refuting arguments. The best they have managed, including Mr Ijaz is to cut the long story short by declaring it conspiracy theory without presenting justifications for their own [conspiracy] theories.

One last thing, I really don’t have and will never have the courage to lift my head in front of that mother who lost her son defending our borders. God forbid I would ever commit the sin of belittling her loss or the services of her sons. That was not the point, I attempted to make over there. My argument was (and is) to register my utmost dislike for the habitual abuse of generals to cash that sacrifices for their own games. Nothing more than that. My unconditional apology if it sounded otherwise.

Anyhow, I am once again grateful for all replies and feedback. It has been a giving discourse over here. May God bless you all. Thanks for this time.

Happy Ramazan (the remaining one)
Eid Mubarrak (in advance)
Long Live Pakistan
Pakistan Zindabad

Nighat Yasmeen

Tauheed at 172:

The problem is again the perception of Pakistan, and for that matter all Muslim countries, created by the western media. For example, the media always portrays countries like Pakistan and even tourist friendly countries like Turkey, Egypt, Malaysia in gory colors. On the contrary, it goes overboard in associating every thing culturally, historically and archaeologically rich with India, Thailand , Greece, etc. Therefore, you will normally see electronic media telecasting positive programs on India, while Malaysia and Egypt resort to running advertisements.

You can run your own experience in this regard. Notice how CNN and BBC give positive coverage to India and tend to paint a very negative picture on say tourism oriented country like Malaysia.

It is because of this subtle propaganda against Muslim countries that our Indian friends are closed to taking any new and valuable information on a `Muslim` Pakistan.

If you read any account of travelers through India and Pakistan, you will notice one thing distinctly. They are all unanimously in awe over the openness, neatness and betterness of living of Pakistan compared to India.

stuka #160

if you read my posts, you will see that i am not denying that china was another factor. but neither was china the only factor in the indian decision to develop the bomb, and there is no question that a major (if not sole) purpose of the bjp explosions was to intimidate pakistanis.

and this i have based on the fact that (a) the indian bomb explosions were conducted close to pakistan borders. and i will also say that this could be justified for technical reasons (this area presents the most open space). but then, if bjp had no intent of threatening pakistan, common sense would have dictated that they informed pakistan ahead of time and explained the need for such testing and so forth. this was not done. and there is no question that for the few days between the indian tests and the pakistan response, the pakistan public was fear-stricken by the indian bombs (as a number of people who were in pakistan at the time told me). (b) advani`s arrogant and aggressive statements concerning how the bjp explosions had changed things as far as the india-pakistan equation was concerned. these statements were widely reported in the world press, and they were not contradicted by any other senior leader of the bjp, and advani remains in power to this very day having since been made the number two leader in india. so, unlike what you write, it would be foolish for any pakistani leader to assume that advani was simply ranting.

i would say that on one count advani was right - the bjp explosions did change the india-pakistan equation. BUT....in an opposite direction than the one he and the rest of the bjp leaders foolishly thought at the time they carried out these explosions. it changed it from from of military weakness on the part of pakistan vs. india to one of parity. while india`s standing hasnt changed much as a result of the explosions, pakistan came out of the woods it had been in as US sanctions lifted as being no longer relevant.

with bjp and other hindutva chauvinists and Great Power seekers as enemies, pakistanis dont need any friends. ;-)


if there is anything factually wrong in what i have written above, or the path between these facts and my conclusions (and indeed the conclusions of the pakistani leaders who responded in kind), then i would look hear about it. otherwise, i hope you will agree that i am not being biased simply because i was born west of the border and not east.

I do not remember the exact name. Perhaps it was Dr. Schumann. He wrote about the future of Pakistan in 1947 and opined that the country created by Jinnah would fall apart in 50 years. His theory was based on the type of opportunist and corrupt politicians who had joined the League and what they would do to a nascent country.

Partially he was correct. This breed of politicians have given nothing but misery to the country. the nexus of curruption destroyed that wonderful decade of progress in which Pakistan`s growth was towering as high as Japan. The corruption was so massive that the explanation of loan spending in my post is only the tip of the ice berg. Morris describes the role of the Armed Forces of Pakistan in national development as amongst the best in the world.Raymonf Aaron wrote a complete book on it.

Pakistan`s stability which proved Schumann wrong has much to do with the Cold War. but it also owes much to its dedicated citizens who kept the candle burning. On its part, the armed forces played a very positive role. That is an irrefutable fact.

Please read the book, `Economics of Defence` and Defence Spendings in South Asia` You will be in for a surprise. The difference with your politicians/babbus and ours is that your`s do not bargain national interests for a pittance. Our`s, sky is the limit.

subedar # 174

(When ordinary people start writing articles like this one, when Hashmis start distributing letters (may it be fake), when man on the street start doubting the intentions of a fighting force, not much is left of that military. Sorry, very sorry, we are at that nadir now)

I agree with you.

When Mulla starts doing politics, he should not expect to be treated like Alim - he will be treated like a politician.

Similarly, when uniformed people start doing politics, they should not expect the normal respect due to uniform. They will be treated like politicians.

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Dard, a very strong line of argumentation, indeed. No doubt, the whole exercise of attacks and counter attacks on honesty, integrity and not to mention the political role of the military stinks. The most relevant question would be, why on the earth we need to continuously thrash this issue in the first place.

Prince William is fathered by Prince Charles or not, is of no importance, to me at the least. None of my business. But the question does indicate a possibility that Diana might have not been very careful with her genitals during her marital life. Normally, no smoke without fire. In the same fashion, using some mathematical induction one can deduce the illegitimacy, the political one if not parental, of the military bosses too.

Nazar and Romair would definitely agree with me that hearsay, mere rumours that general x, y, z is “mawes” and was once caught red-handed being sodomized by his ADC, batmen, guard, chauffeur (like the rumours of price Charles and his assistant) is NEITHER good for his standing among officers NOR for his prospects as an effective manner.

When ordinary people start writing articles like this one, when Hashmis start distributing letters (may it be fake), when man on the street start doubting the intentions of a fighting force, not much is left of that military. Sorry, very sorry, we are at that nadir now.

Subedar S S (SJ)
16 Punjab

I reckon, that`s the WASHINGTON CONSENSUS PACKAGE littered with all types of assumptions and statistics. The West loves to sex up dossiers and reports. Havent we learned our lessons yet.

Sitting with green passports and naturalised citizenships, its easy to crticise without a first person experience. Don`t see the country through the windows of NGOs and likes. Move where the action is and see life for yourself.

Pakistan has big defence forces because Pakistan is vulnerable. Indian concept of security cooption implies a vassal status for all its neighbours. So dont blame your motherland for large defence budget.

You have all the statistics mixed up. So gear up your body armour and then argue logically point to point.

We are neither Indians nor anything else. Before crticising, we ought to question, what have we done for our country?

ahmedzai #170 i read the article for which you provide the link. i found this observation to interesting: ``Compared to Delhi, far less beards and burqas are to be seen in Islamabad.``

May it always be so. And (for their sake), may these people in delhi learn something from the fine people of islamabad. Amen. :-)

Dear Ijaz, please see my reply #164

Leave the okara issue aside, I tried to be point and replied your points in chronological manner.
See, the mere need to discuss military back and forth is a proof that something is grossly wrong. Can you allude to articles where Indians, Malaysians, Bangladeshis discussing, cursing, defending, abusing their respective militaries and its intrusion right into their drawing rooms.

PS: The statistics about TB was retrieved from a recent article appearing in L A Times:
Arms Race Leaves Medicine Behind
India and Pakistan spend billions on weapons while aid groups struggle for funds to fight polio and tuberculosis.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-armsrace12nov12,1,4554500.story

dard. stick to the issue. There has been enough discussion on the Okara Farms on an article by Rafay Alam.
Please dont mix up statistics and then comment.
You need to have a good and objective look at the economic statistics for the past twenty years. Then you will be better equipped to comment.

re: fuzair # 153

That remains the most controversial aspect in India`s fight against terror. The rationale appeared to be: who better to fight the terrorists than those who had been on the inside, and were familiar with all the training, infilteration, and operational facilities? As expected, these `counter-terrorists` were extremely successful. Ultimately, India curtailed their use in the face of increasing reports of their misuse of power. This curtailment was bitterly opposed by people who had been assigned the task of defending J&K.

Once again, both India and Pakistan proved to be equally willing to expose Kashmiris to grave risks. Kashmiris were no angels either: they had been engaged in slaughtering and religious cleansing for two decades. On the whole, Kashmir has been one big mess for the last twenty five years.

arjun at # 150 and rsridhar at 154:

US and UK Government, establishment, media and think tanks that you referred to had also told the world that Iraq had WMD and that was about to launch an attack on the USA. Furthermore, they had also told us that Iraqis would greet the US forces with open arms.

Earlier while invading Afghanistan the same clique had told us, amongst other things, that Afghan women will be liberated (i.e. no burqa, etc.), Talibani crops of poppy will be destroyed and Afghanistan would be at peace. At least tell me whether Afghan women has gotten rid of burqa?

ijaz_gul wrote at # 163:

``Hats off to Pakistan`s irregular and unregistered sectors that generate a parallel economy stronger than the documented one. It is this sector that held Pakistan together in the years of sanctions. ``

and

``Pakistan is certainly not in the dismal pits as some would love to portray. For a long time, no one has died of hunger here. Standard of living amongst the average and poor is much higher than in the neighboring countries. ``

I would like to refer my Indian friends to check out Pakistan as reported by an Indian skeptic. Read in Outlook India at:

http://www.outlookindia.com/diary.asp?fodname=20031124

Ijaz Gul, it would be a matter of pleasure to answer some of the points raised by you in your post.
Sir, first of all, to start with, it wouldn’t be wrong to claim that we are a nation of pendulums – swinging from one extreme to the other is our foremost national trait. So, unsurprisingly, all posts can be sorted into two major groups. Those who are bitterly opposed to khakis and those who are unable to find any fault with them.
In process, arguments get twisted, facts and figures sexed up.

Sir, with full respect, you too opted to present a part of the truth, at best.
Please, observe:
1. You are right that the direct (and visible) allocation for defence is about 26% and approx. 50% goes towards debt servicing. Now what you altogether forgot to take in consideration was that at the least 50 % of national debt has accumulated due to shopping of military hardware over the years.

2. Doesn’t matter, for discussion and simplicity sake, eave the reasons for debt accumulation aside. As you concede yourself, 50% for debt servicing, 26 % for defence means ONLY 24% of national resources for 140 million Pakistanis. Great, really great. Tuberculosis kills more than 50,000 Pakistanis A YEAR and infects 250,000. The infectious lung disease is easily prevented with vaccination, or treated with relatively cheap drugs. We don’t have resources even for this while Musharraf claiming, we will maintain that no-win situation, come what may. Do you see, how preposterous it is al this? We swing back to the article. How many Pakistanis do India kill every year? This is just one example, I can enumerate dozens more.

3. The armed forces run some of the best and cheapest education institutions. Really? Would you kindly mention few of them, number of students enrolled over there. Cheapest, sure, for faujis?

…”Public schools here are little more than warehouses, grim concrete shells lacking libraries, sports facilities, sometimes even teachers. Classes have as many as 60 students. But the children of Pakistani military officers almost certainly are not among them. For them, there is Army Public School O Levels.”
… Why else, they wonder, would officers` children at the seven-year-old army school enjoy basketball courts, fields for cricket and soccer, even a petting zoo stocked with ducks and deer.
``The army considers itself a privileged class,`` Khayyam Durrani, a retired officer who is principal of the school, said with a smile. ``The fact is that the actual rulers in Pakistani society are the army people, so they want their children to go to a privileged institution.``

Washington Post
Refute it if you can.

4. Ijaz Gul sahib, Sir, please come on. I myself belong to Sargodha (one of the cities you mentioned in your reply), but unfortunately totally incapable of finding “town management” of the armed forces. Shaheen barrier divides civilian and military Pakistan – with absolutely nothing common. On one side white sectors of old South Africa, with a bit of exaggeration, black ghettos on the other. For enlightening readers, do point out faults in my description.

5. Oh, Okara too. I think you have totally missed news reporting about the tragic plight of besieged peasants. Wanna have some links. I will post them in a separate reply. Keep in mind that army is occupying this prime piece of land belonging to government of Punjab without paying a single penny in rent or lease for last 30 years. At the same time pocketing un-audited huge sums from poor peasants. A novel way of contributing towards the GDP of the country.

6. Defence Housing societies. Here comes the well-documented modus operandi. Almost always, land acquired either by force or gifted (as recently in Karachi, tell me if I am wrong), develop it through PUBLIC resources, sell it to civilians. Yet another way of contributing towards the GDP of the country.

7. Ijaz gul sahib, Sir, you didn’t even try to challenge any of the points raised by NY in her 2500 words article. I would recommend you to check her open letter to Musharraf as well (Some Burning Questions).

8. According to the latest State Bank Report, 33% of Pakistanis are living under poverty line, and their number increasing and has increased during last 4 years. So, Sir, what are you talking about? Deceiving yourself or poor readers?

Take care

Okara
You can get more stuff to read, in case this much doesnt satisfy you.

1.
…” Denial of access to medical aid has resulted in death of four residents of the Okara military farms since the law-enforcement agencies cordoned off the area.
Residents told Dawn that Naseem Bibi of Chak 45/3-R died because she was not allowed to go outside the military farm when her labour pains started. Abdul Sattar of the same village died of a cardiac arrest as he was also not allowed to go to hospital.
Farzand Ali Jat of Chak 3/4-L and Haneef Jat of Chak 10/4-L had injured during a police-Rangers action on May 4. Farzand was hit by a teargas shell while Haneef was severely baton-charged. Both died without getting medical aid. “
Dawn: May 14, 2003
http://www.dawn.com/2003/05/14/local21.htm

2.
… “Roadblocks are everywhere, manned by soldiers with automatic weapons as well the lighter-armed police. Four-wheelers with mounted machine guns prowl menacingly on the dirt roads next to the irrigation canals, raising huge clouds of dust as they move between villages. For all practical purposes, the nearly one million people of Okara are under military occupation.
“And then, as if the floodgates had broken, villagers came to show us wounds on their bodies, some now turning septic. One, who led me aside, broke down sobbing and told a tale that cannot be related here for reasons of propriety. A visit to the neighbouring village, Chak 4-L, showed the situation there to be virtually identical. Broken limbs, hollow faces, sunken eyes, and marks of beatings were in abundant evidence there too.”
Dawn: May 22, 2003
http://www.dawn.com/2003/05/22/op.htm#2

3.
… “Farm authorities have engineered novel methods to demoralise resisting tenants. These include: setting-up pickets all around; cutting the power and food supply to the villages; picking up school-going children of the tenants and keeping them in custody to pressurise their parents; arresting relatives of tenants living in other cities; curtailing the village-to-village mobility of tenants; depriving the injured and ailing of medical treatment and so on.”
The News on Sunday: June 01, 2003
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jun2003-weekly/nos-01-06-2003/pol1.htm#1


4.
“An investigative report on the military-tenant standoff at Okara reveals that the problem remains unresolved. At least five villages falling under the category of military farms are completely cordoned off by Rangers and police. Multiple layers of army checkpoints regulate the farmers and their families. Anyone seeking access to these villagers is screened through several Ranger command levels, questioned about his motives and given a briefing reflecting extreme hostility towards the tenants.”
The Nation: June 20, 2003
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/June-2003/20/EDITOR/edi2.asp

5.
…It has been proved beyond an iota of doubt that the army is neither a lessee nor the owner of the Okara farms.
“For the last 10 months, the entire area has been under siege, with the rangers guarding all exit and entry points of 18 villages, and regularly arresting tenants to force them to pay rent. Most tenants, in fact, have not left their villages in broad daylight in nearly 17 months.
“The rangers, meanwhile, are further tightening the screws. More than 650 FIRs have been lodged against the tenants, and some 7,000 farmers have been charged with anti-state activities and booked under the anti-terrorism laws.”
Herald: June, 2003

6.
…”General Mehdi was completely forthright in his reply when I suggested that the issue of land ownership should be left for the courts to decide and not the Rangers. It is the Army`s government, he said, and the government was the law. Therefore, by definition, it was not possible for the Rangers to do anything illegal. He was a kind man, he said, else he would have ``cleared the area of peasants``.

ZNet
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=36&ItemID=2339
7.
… Worst of all, the arrogance of the OMF can be gauged from the text of some letters written by senior officials to relatives of the allegedly offending tenants threatening them in clearly unlawful terms. We are in possession of two letters sent to the OMFs employees, dated Aug 26, 2002, and Jan 24, 2003, by the farm officer, a major. These show the mindset of the military authorities towards the Okara tenancy issue in particular and civil-military relations in general. In one of the letters, the major writes in English: … It has come to our notice that your parents/relatives living in chaks of Mil Farms are involved in anti-state activities. You are directed to motivate your parents/relatives to desist from anti-state activities and to co-op with the Pakistan Army and Pakistan Rangers. If you will not do this for the state, appropriate disciplinary action will be taken against you…

The Friday Times
Najam Sethi`s
Editorial
Okara peasants, military and national interest
August 15 – 21, 2003

ijaz_gul

I don`t have all the figures on Pakistan but your second paragraph intrigued me. If the armed forces do all this, then the question one must ask - why?!

Coming from a non Military background, I have difficulty accepting that we civilians so very less intelligent and less competent than the khaki wearers.

Why should Pakistani civilians be any less intelligent and less competent than their counterparts elsewhere?

#147 by tahmed32 on November 15, 2003 7:47am PT
I think you missed what I implied.
By letting lose your ``Bastards`` you are neither helping yourselves nor the Indian muslims - some of whom get stupidly recruited by the ISI agents to help these ``Bastards`` blow up innocent peoples in this country.
Infact, the Indian muslims want Pakistan to stop pushing its TNT agenda and stop trying to speak FOR the Indian muslims who are sufficiently capable of deciding their future in Indian context.
I think the message is clear now.

The article by Nighat Yasmeen has been really revealing, intriguing and thought provoking. In fact her apt analysis of Pakistan’s Armed Forces have forced me to review the credentials of such military sociologists like Amos Perlmutter, Samuel Huntington, Morris Jonawitzs, David Ordlinger, Raymond Aaron and Cohen. I remember having read that most military interventions ought to be viewed in the realm of national development and not praetorianism. I still agree with them as in the Pakistani military politic there is an absence of a Coterie that perpetuates and sustains coups. All military take-overs have taken place when there was total public disenchantment with the political and bureaucratic regimes and applauded as such. So at best the most revealing aspect of Nighat’s article is that it is a CONSPIRACY THEORY.

The armed Forces do not consume more than 26% of the Annual Budget. Over 50% used to be spent on the debt servicing leaving behind a mere 24% for other sectors. Out of the 26% defence allocation, the Army recieves approximately 16%. Again of the 26% allocation, about 22% directly flows back into the local economies, sustaining the GDP of the country. Thus if the defence allocation was to be slashed, the GDP would fall for a few years till the new channels for cash inflow into local economies are created. Though the Army haters would to their chagrin have much to say, besides being the recipient of 26% allocation, the Armed Forces contributes about 10% of the gross national income in form of taxes and National Development activities and management of the various welfare trust and foundations. Besides, the armed forces run some of the cheapest and best education institutions. The army is the single biggest contributor in the social sectors in the Northern Areas and Kashmir providing such diverse services as communications, schools, basic health and hospitals, construction and maintainance of roads and emergency services. Also remember that the armed forces have been the single biggest contributors of town management and urban development. Quetta, Pannu Aqil, Kharian, Mangla, Okara, Malir, Bannu, Tal, Kohat, Sargodha etc are cases in point. Compare Swat city with Murree to know the difference. You will not find a single green tree in Mingora. As far as real estate is concerned, who stops others in Pakistan to buy non productive waste lands along the seafronts and undulations of the Pothowar to make posh living areas? May I only remind the fate of many housing societies that have mushroomed in the public and private sectors and disappeared after swindling?

Of the total foreign debt of Pakistan which amounted to about 42 billion dollars in 2000, 52% was consumed on water management projects from dams to lining of canals and on farm management. This comes to a staggering figure of about 20 billion dollars. Of this about 60% or 12 billion was wasted on consultancies with not a cent trickling down to the common man. How much was misappropriated is anybody’s guess.

The basic problem in Pakistan is the lack of imaginative planning and honesty of purpose. As such, we do not have a practical socio economic development program. Development is a by product of whatever goes on and is therefore a consequence.

Hats off to Pakistan`s irregular and unregistered sectors that generate a parallel economy stronger than the documented one. It is this sector that held Pakistan together in the years of sanctions. For the past three years, this sector is on a decline because the Tax survey squeezed their incomes and cheap stuff coming from China and Taiwan.

In the complex atmosphere of our financial institutions and Czars, self reliance is a mere slogan. This powerful lobby wants to live off loans, grants and loyalties to the international Financial Institutions, powerful multi and trans nationals and their own profits.

The agriculture surplus that we are reaping for the past three years, owes much to the policies of a certain God fearing and patriotic secretary of agriculture. He ensured that wheat strains were developed that closed the gap of Kharif crops with late picking of cotton. He ensured that we got self sufficient in Canola and minimizes import of edible oils. Unfortunately, not only was he booted out, but also the complete canola program sabotaged in the interests of the poultry lobby that imports cheap Soya meal from India, which is first processed in solvent plants to extract oil. Such are the shots in the foot.

So let us not become a country of apologists and pseudo who wish to fill the coffers of NGOs or reclaim our own lowly rated self esteem. Pakistan is certainly not in the dismal pits as some would love to portray. For a long time, no one has died of hunger here. Standard of living amongst the average and poor is much higher than in the neighboring countries. Yes, intolerance has crept in ever since the Afghan Jihad and Arabisation, but it will go way, once the socio economic program gets into full gear spearheaded by the private sector.
I am reminded of Iqbal:

Apne man mein dhoob ker pa ja tu raz e zindighi
Tu aghar mera nahin banta na ban, apna to ban


I wish if someone including the czars could challenge me on these figures.

rsridhar # 56

(Why did L.K. Advani threaten Pak soon after India exploded its bomb. Simply because, if Pak had not exploded its bomb, India would have been totally isolated diplomatically. Pak did India a favor. Of course, it was darn easy to goad Pak politicians (high on testosterone and low on I.Q) to respond in kind. L.K. Advani and Co. must have heaved a sigh of relief once they learnt Pak too had exploded nuclear devices!)

I tend to differ with the above. I think the world community would have accepted India in the nuclear club - size, democracy etc. May be after some initial dithering.

There was no need for Advani to threaten Pakistan. In fact, he should have played it extra cool towards Pakistan. His threat provided justificatioon to Pakistan to respond -

For Pakistan, nuclear capability has been a double-edged sword - It made Pakistan Army more belligerant - Kargil - etc etc etc. It had a damaging affect on the economy - it has also become a negative factor in country`s perception when coupled with political instability & rise of religious extremism.

-Of course there is no doubt India was a reluctant nuclear power. Considering the technical capabilities we had built in the 50`s itself, a crash program would have seen us beat China to the bomb or atleast develop it soon after. One interesting speculation is that Pakistan considered `65 the last chance to retake Kashmir before India developed a bomb (atleast that it played a factor in the decision to go to war in `65).

-Also after the 74 tests there was a long while before true weaponization (some kind of recessed deterrent must have always existed since). The famous story of the bombs designed being too large (not enough ground clearance) for the Jaguar aircraft to deliver them, points to the chinese wall built between the military and the nuclear establishment.

-Reasons for the `98 blasts are complex, among them:
1)The infinite extension of NPT and India`s isolation among countries opposing this extension
2)Absolutely no progress towards N-disarmament by the N-5 (an essential part of the NPT)
3)US pressure on the CTBT (Test Ban Treaty)(How the heck did we know that the US senate itself would reject it :-))
4)Extensive proliferation of China to Pakistan incuding complete weaponized warhead designs, delivery systems, reactor at Kaushab, possible supply of fissile materials itself.
5)Pressure from the Indian pro-bomb scientific lobby (I think Perkovich over-emphasises this)

Of course I didnt forget everyones favourite: the rise to power of the BJP, which right from its Jan Sangh days espoused the bomb.

Some interesting points from that book:
-for all his moral posturing Nehru didnt leave future generations of Indian`s at a disadvantage by slamming shut the bomb door. Particularly Bhabha must have definitely understood the bomb related implications of the uranium-plutonium-thorium fuel cycle that he proposed. Thus while there was no effort towards developing a bomb the option was definitely left open for future generations.

-Morarji Desai (when he was PM) did a lot to try and halt/roll back the bomb program. The pro-bomb scientists (ramana, PK Iyengar, Chidambaram) had to work around the PM`s office for several years.

-One important revelation in the book was that the Eisenhover administration considered providing some kind of nuclear cover for India. One proposal considered was training indian bomber pilots in delivery while the actual bombs were to be stored outside India to be provided in case of emergency. In the latter part of his administration Eisenhover deeply regretted how US policy had so strongly supported Ayub Khan, calling it ``a grave error``(its deja vu all over again, aint it :-)).

-I dont think there was any US adminstration that ``encouraged`` India to go nuclear. All efforts to providing a nuclear ``umbrella`` was to dissuade India from developing the bomb.

-The Chinese tests (64?) did not provoke the kind of political debate it should have. The importance given to nuclear issues has always been low for all the major political parties (barring the Jan Sangh/BJP). Of course at the strategic level China has always loomed large.

-Pakistan was definitely an issue mid-80`s onwards. One speculation is that India kept some test bombs and the Pohkran site handy incase they had to respond to a Pakistani test.

``People like Homi Bhabha were actually trained in US facilities.``
He studied at Cambridge and worked on cosmic ray physics.

US did let a number of Indian scientists study at Argonne (sp?)(in 50`s and 60`s I think). It related in some way to the Tarapur deal.


#arjun 155
On the TT side of the bridge, near the juice stalls there.

Fuzair:

I believe you are talking about the Ikhwanis. I don`t think there is any statistical or even anecdotal evidence to say that one group per se has more of a monopoly on crime then any other. In fact the mosr ``famous`` incidents were conducted by rather unknown groups. One was the killing of 4 forigners by ``Al Faran`` which was never from later, and the other was throwing acid at college girls by a previously unknown group.

TAhmed: A lot of Indian try to convince you of things that you need no convincing on such as Indo Pak trade, improved relations etc. However, I would agree with Bongdongs and ask you to read more on the Indian nuclear program. I too have had an interest and I think you may be overly influenced by a speech made here or there. The issue is not simplistic and it is certainly not Pak centric.

re:#158 by arjun_m
Thanks for the info. I stand corrected.
Sridhar

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re:#151 by bongdongs
I read a critical review of that book in one of the newspapers. Petrovich (?) the author of the book ``The Indian Nuclear bomb`` suggests that India was a reluctant nuclear power and dilly- dallied for quiet a while. All along, China factor was the big one. Pak was not even in the picture. US actually was encouraging India in the 50s to go nuclear in response to China`s nuclear ambitions. People like Homi Bhabha were actually trained in US facilities.

The last round of tests were in response to the failure of the policy of ``nuclear ambiguity`` which had worked well during the Cold war era. Pak had put in place one of the most elaborate and sophisticated ``nuclear theft`` to make a bomb possible. Pak`s hero A.Q. Khan was instrumental in smuggling a lot of secrets from the west. China too chipped in. It became clear by the 1990s that India`s policy was not working and that it made no sense to keep everything under the wraps. Scientists, technocrats were advising GOI to go nuclear publicly. Successive regimes of I.K.Gujral, Deve Gowda, Rao developed cold feet and it was left to BJP to explode the bomb and take credit. That in nutshell is the story behind Indian bomb. All that i am saying here can be verified by doing a simple google search.

Why did L.K. Advani threaten Pak soon after India exploded its bomb. Simply because, if Pak had not exploded its bomb, India would have been totally isolated diplomatically. Pak did India a favor. Of course, it was darn easy to goad Pak politicians (high on testosterone and low on I.Q) to respond in kind. L.K. Advani and Co. must have heaved a sigh of relief once they learnt Pak too had exploded nuclear devices!
Sridhar

fuzair #153 maybe so. but if these terrorists had never been created to begin with, they would never have been ``turned`` by the indian forces after capture. that is why the pakistan policy makers should never care about whether these are ``our ba!stards`` or not. they must respect the line separating civilized from uncivilized behavior.

i am not excusing the ravaging of civilians by the indian government by any means. and i am well aware of the atrocities committed under the benevolent eyes of men like modi who nevertheless retain their elected offices. but i dont want to do so since in doing so we would mean excusing the behavior of our military. and that would be like pointing to the neighbors lawn when our own lawn is messy enough.

and there are enough international watchdogs like Amnesty International (as you point out) to make sure that the truth is known to all. for whatever that is worth: we need to focus on preventing future slaughters, and the only real way to do that i know of is to live in peace within existing boundries. while retaining a credible defense.

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re:#149 by ahmadzai
You keep persisting on this theme of ``neutral observers``. I believe one time i had answered a lengthy post on a similar subject.
In this day and age, there are ways international agencies, other countries can verify if infiltration across the LOC is happening or not. If you read the statements coming out of US politicians and bureaucrats, they only talk of ``decrease in infiltration`` and ``what Pak must do to end infiltrations`` so on and so forth. The fact that infiltration is happening is not in any doubt anymore.
Sridhar

Romair

I don`t remember who all the ``yous`` are supposed to be but one of them is admadzai is certainly supposed to be one of your avatars!

Tahmed

If I recall correctly, there was substantial evidence (Amnesty International? Human Rights Watch?) to suggest that the worst excesses in Kashmire are/were being conducted by former ``terrorists`` who have been captured and ``turned`` by the Indian Security Forces. This is the Indian`s version of ``fighting fire with fire`` apparently. Of course, neither side, Indian Forces or the LeT/HuM types are innocent of the most appalling atrocities.

Tahmed,

I would suggest reading George Perkovich`s ``India`s Nuclear Bomb`` for a scholarly look at India`s nuclear program.

The issues are not as simplistic as you them them out to be.

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Ballukhan at # 145:

In response to your lengthy post, I would say that in the absence of a neutral body monitoring events in Indian occupied Kashmir on a regular basis, there is no way to determine the veracity of all that comes from Indian Government, Indian military, BSF, whatever.

Simply to have its propaganda going, India has adamantly refused any UN role in its occupied part of Kashmir.

Indians must question their Government on Kashmiris being killed everyday at the hands of its military in so called encounters.

rsridhar #131 i agree with you that the average indian does not harbor the same ill-feelings towards pakistanis as so many chowk posters from india do. i know enough indians in real life to be able to say that with confidence. you also correctly note the positive reaction of the indian public to the baby who was given medical treatment in india. there is definitely no reason why indians and pakistanis cannot get along as well in the subcontinent as they do abroad. i know many people (including my two brothers and a neice who spent a few months travelling all over india ``to find her roots`` as she put it only half-jokingly, after completing here studies in europe) who have been to india, and they were all warmly received and enjoyed their stay (one brother was actually there at the invitation of doctors within india for a professional visit). i enjoyed my one day stay in india, and hope to return someday to see more of the country. so, individuals like jay can vent their hatreds towards us all they want on chowk - the reality is quite different.

on your post #130, i think the intentions you think lay behind bjp`s announcing their coming to power in india by blasting five nuclear weapons on our borders are generous to the bjp, but do not ring true: if everyone knew that pakistan was capable of making bombs, there wasnt any significant advantage for india to having pakistan demonstrate this capability. and regardless of the intentions, the affect was quite clear (as advani made no bones about): to intimidate pakistan, and to replace dialogue with india dictating terms to pakistan. the fact that it in fact was quite self-defeating - far from intimidating pakistan, it replaced the confrontation from conventional weapons (where india had the larger forces and resources) to nuclear weapons. and far froom suffering international condemnation, pakistan actually came out of the woods after that and a lot of international sanctions that had been in place to try and keep pakistan from acquiring the bomb were lifted as being redundant.

ballukhan #145: i believe that putting an end to the LeT terrorists and other armed religious groups in pakistan should be job #1 for the pakistan government. so you dont need to convince me there. these are essentially criminal organizations that are the result of the soviet-afghan war and which - after the soviet withdrawal - shifted their focus (with the support, there is no doubt, of certain pakistani generals) to kashmir. it is indeed disgraceful that the pakistan military should have used these murderers to fight proxy wars with india. this policy (``they may be ba!stards, but they are OUR ba!stards``, as LBJ once said about a similar misconceived policy in the US of supporting offensive characters - which in his case was tinpot dictators i think) is not just morally barren, it ultimately self-defeating. my heart goes out to the innocent villagers in kashmir who have been killed by these groups, as it does to the innocent people within pakistan who have also been attacked by these groups.

pakistan isnt exactly the ``gutter`` that you say people in india think of it to be: but that is just my view and i happen to love pakistan and pakistani people and their proud and wonderful traditions. but you are entitled to your views and they dont bother me.

As for the rest of your post, i see that you have ignored what i wrote and simply assured me that india has no interest in taking over pakistan. rsridhar also made that point earlier in his post. however, if you read my post carefully, you will see that my emphasis was on ``occupy and humiliate`` pakistan. it would be foolish on the part of pakistan to ignore bjp`s behavior after taking power, or assume advani was just ranting after the nuclear explosions at our doorsteps, or to think that india marched the million men to our borders last year with no intention of ever engaging them in battle, or to ignore the statements made by the indian military chief at the time concerning taking over pakistan. And while i have no doubt that the vast majority of indians are decent people and have nothing but good feelings towards pakistan, i hope you will accept the fact that hindu extremism is quite real and something pakistanis need to be concerned about as well.

of course the best way to remove an enemy is to make him your friend. but i just need to convince musharaff of that next time i see him around. ;-)

bong dongs #135 I agree with most of what you say, and I think my post to bullukhan, who also raised this question of terrorist actions in india conducted by ``our`` ba!stards - who in fact are not ``our``s either as far as i am concerned, and i am quite sure as far as the vast majority of other pakistanis are concerned. Let us not allow the hate mongerers, militarists, religious extremists and other losers on either side to define the nature of indo-pak relations.

Tahmed,
If you think that India wants to over run the pure land- then forget it??? Nobody in India - except the ISI agents- would be willing to come to PAki land. Infact an occupied Pakiland would be a liability for India. But the ISI backed terror organizations continue spreading its Jehad in India- and this itself is a cause for HATING Pakistan- and I have discussed this with my friends that every reported incidence of killing by these jehadis hardens the hindu mindset .
India wants to forget Pakistan as one likes for forget the GUTTERS in his backyard.!!!
So keep on wobbling in your gutter for eternity.

Major Incidents

2003

September 19: Security forces kill three terrorists, including Abu Haroon, an `area commander` of the Lashkar-e-Toiba, at village Sarbullah in the Gool area of Udhampur district.

September 18: Security forces foil a major infiltration attempt at the Kalsian village in the Nowshera sector of Rajouri district killing eight terrorists affiliated to the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

September 16: Three LeT terrorists and one SF personnel are killed and four SF personnel sustain injuries during an encounter in the Shopian area of Pulwama district.

September 10: Five Pakistan-based terrorist groups, including the LeT, which were proscribed by President Pervez Musharraf on January 12, 2002, are currently functioning openly under changed identities, according to the Pakistan-based Herald.

September 3: Security forces kill three foreign mercenaries of the LeT, including an `area commander` during an encounter at Budhal in the Rajouri district.

August 18: An LeT `area commander` identified as Abbu Jindal alias K-6 is shot dead during an encounter at village Gunthal in the Surankote area of Poonch district.

August 8: Manzoor Zahid Chowdhary, a Pakistani who was the `chief co-ordinator` of the LeT, is killed in an encounter in the Chadoura area of Budgam district. Manzoor had been one of the terrorists who had launched an attack on the Akshardham temple in Gujarat on September 24, 2002.

August 7: A designated court in Delhi sentences a LeT terrorist and his two associates under the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA). While the LeT terrorist, Feroz Ahmed Sheikh was sentenced to 10 years of imprisonment, his associates Sheikh Sajjad and Mehrajuddin Peer were sentenced to five years of imprisonment.

July 25: Five LeT terrorists are killed during an encounter near Manjoo Post at Nageena Bridge, close to the Line of Control (LoC), in the Karnah sector.

July 22: A three-member fidayeen (suicide squad) storms an army camp killing eight security force personnel, including a Brigadier, and injuring 12 others, including four top Generals, a Brigadier and two Colonels at village Bangti on the Tanda road in Akhnoor. The Al-Shahuda Brigade, suspected to be a front organisation of the Lashkar-e-Toiba, claims responsibility for the attack.

July 17: Security forces raid a terrorist hideout at Lalad Amargarh near Sopore and in the ensuing encounter, a `district commander` of the LeT is killed.

July 13: Four LeT terrorists are killed during an encounter at village Upper Pangai in the Thanamandi area of Rajouri district.

July 3: Eight persons arrested in the US on June 27 for their alleged support to the LeT to train and participate in Jehad in the Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir plead not guilty in a district court in Virginia

June 30: A District Court of Alexandria in US orders release of Masoud Ahmad Khan, who was arrested on an unspecified date, on charges of recruiting, training and helping LeT terrorists for subversive activities in the Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir.

June 28: A 41-count Federal Grand Jury indictment is turned against 11 LeT terrorists who have been charged with conspiracy to ``prepare for and engage in violent jehad`` against foreign targets in Kashmir, Philippines and Chechnya. The 11 include eight persons arrested by agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Maryland, Virginia and Pennsylvania on June 27 and three others believed to be in Saudi Arabia.

June 27: Eight alleged LeT cadres, accused of planning terrorist acts in the Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir, are arrested during a series of raids around the US Federal Capital of Washington, the US Justice Department said in a statement. Three other persons, reportedly living in Saudi Arabia, were also named in a 42-count Justice Department indictment.

June 26: Four foreign mercenaries, including Abu Muaviya, a LeT `district commander`, and an Afghani identified as Abu Haamid, `company commander` of the JeM are killed during an encounter in the Dooraswani forest area of Lolab in Kupwara district.

June 20: Four foreign mercenaries of the LeT are killed during an encounter at village Tiranga in the Banihal area of Doda district.

June 14: 10 hardcore Pakistani Lashkar terrorists are killed during an encounter at Hari Safeda in the Surankote area of Poonch district. A police constable and a civilian were also killed in the incident.

June 9: Five suspected LeT terrorists are killed during an encounter at Nangali Top in the Poonch district.

June 7: Three LeT terrorists and a civilian are killed and three other civilians, including two women, injured at village Chrung in the Thanamandi area of Rajouri district.

May 22: A suspected Pakistani Lashkar-e-Toiba terrorist is killed in an encounter in the Nazafgarh area of Delhi.

May 16: Two LeT `commanders` and one SF personnel are killed in an encounter at village Hayatpura in the Rajouri district.

May 7: Three security force personnel, including an Army Captain, and five suspected LeT terrorists are killed during an encounter at the Yusmarg foothills of Pir Panjal mountain range. LeT chief Hafiz Muhammad Saeed says in an interview to The Nation that the recent talks offer from India to solve the Kashmir issue is to complete the US agenda in the region.

May 4: Three LeT terrorists are killed in an encounter at Beerwah in the central Kashmir district of Budgam. Separately, three more Lashkar cadres are killed at village Manyali in the Azmatabad area of Rajouri district.

May 2: Two LeT foreign mercenaries, including Abu Wasid, a `deputy div