Outsourcing Torture

The people who are in Guantamo are not ordinary Afghan soldiers of the Taliban. They are foreigners, or members of the political establishment. POW rights are given to those who fight in uniform as part of the national army of the enemy country. Even soldiers of the national army NOT fighting in uniform are not covered by the Geneva conventions. Do a google search and you will get the answer.

The Geneva Convention is thrown around by everyone as if it is a universal declaration of human rights. It is a specific agreement covering the role of a certain type of combatant. During WW2, saboteurs of both sides who were arrested incivil dress were shot by firing squad, same as spies, and not sent to POW camp. If a Paratrooper takes of his unique identifiers (badge, uniform) and blends into civil population, he is liable to execution and not prison time. These are facts and not opinions about Geneva Convention.

Induson #101: All prisoners of war, in any war, are generally caught with arms in their hands, trying to blow up the enemy. What else should they be doing? That is how all the POWs in Pakistani and Indian wars were caught. That is how all the American POWs are caught. Should Afghanis drop their arms anytime the USA decides to attack them?

However, there are laws and regulations relating to how POWs should be treated. The USA is the first country to bring up these rules and regulations, when its soldiers are caught.

Now a precendence has been set. And if US soldiers become POWs, they can be treated like the Guantonomo Bay inmates. I am not sure what the US reaction would be, at that time.

The problem with the US mindset is that it is always convinced it is correct and moral. It wants and expects the whole world to sympathesize with it. Not only when it is attacked (as in WTC), but even when it attacks others. It is strange to see US commentators just assume, from the get-go, that the US is a force of good, always, i.e. even when it bombs others, it does so for the others’ benefits. This has to be the height of arrogance. It is one thing for superpowers to attack others, and kill innocents. All superpowers do that. The USA probably does it less than previous superpowers. However, it is quite condescending to then try to moralize it, and moralize actions like Guantonomo Bay.

For all the hatred between Pakistan and India, I have to say, that outside the civilian wars (Kashmir, East Pakistan), the battles between the two countries have been very chivalrous. I have met Pakistanis who were POWs in India. And generally, they seem to have been treated well. I know Pakistani pilots who attacked India, and they seemed to have made it point to go out of their way to not hit civilian targets – sometimes risking their own lives. I know for a fact that Indians did the same, since I saw Indian planes flying overhead in 71. Even in Kargil, one of the Pakistanis who got a Nishan-e-Haider, apparently, had an Indian recommendation.

Compare this to what the USA does when it goes to war. It only has one aim: zero US casualities. In the process, it carries out indiscriminate bombing, and bombs the smithereens out of civilians and civilian infrastructure. Lahore and Delhi were never devestated in wars, like Baghdad and Kabul have been. How many civilians were killed in the bombing raids in India and Pakistan, in 71 and 65, combined? How many civilians were killed in the Iraq bombings by the USA (even though Iraq had no defences)? Do the math.

It is extremely important to the rest of the world, for the Iraqis to kick out the USA from Iraq, with its tail between its legs. This is happening now, as many of us had predicted. If the Iraqis don’t do it, the neo-con jaggernaut will move onto other targets, and their will be move Guantonomo Bays and more Mehr Arars.

Interestingly, we don’t hear the words, “Shock and Awe” any longer, in the US govt. press breifings. The only individuals who seem to be in shock and awe at the moment are the supporters of this war - including, the likes of Bush and Cheney, Rusmfeld, Wolfowitz and Pearle and tahmad.

While the Mehr Arars of this war, despite having taken a lot of punishment, are on the offensive.

This is how it should be. And you know whose side I am on.

Induson#101:
``On the other hand most of the guys in camp X-ray have been captured from the battle field with guns in their hands ready to blow up the enemy.``
...and why did they have the guns in their hands? Whether one likes taleban or not -and I dont- can one deny that they were defending their country from an attack by a foreign country? Is defending one`s country such a horrendous crime that people should be sent to the worst form of Kala Pani? If they are prisoners of war, then why are they not being treated as such? The Japanese in the war camps remained on the US territory and were therefore subject to the US judicial system; the inmates of the camp X-ray have been denied even that basic right.

#62 by Fosa on November 12, 2003 7:05am PT

one can smell a strong stench of hatred vaporizing in the air around him.

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#90

Let us not get all carried away. Japanese were residents and citizens of USA who worked, lived and paid taxes in USA and most of them liked USA if not loved it. On the other hand most of the guys in camp X-ray have been captured from the battle field with guns in their hands ready to blow up the enemy. You emotional diatribe is muddling the boundaries here.

dullabhatti:
You have raised some pertinent issues. There was no solid evidence against him. Indeed, even after a year of torture he has been released without any charges levelled against him.

``I think he was discriminated and shipped out to taste the proverbial ummah justice by some bigot and frustrated guy in the justice/homeland security department but there was not a contract, verbal or otherwise, to interrogate him in Syria. Just saying Syria is afraid of US so they must have done it on US intructions is not enough. Where is proof he was send specifically for interrogation? what information was extracted from him? Whom was it given to? Did US send any other Syrians or non-Syrians to Syria to be interrogated? Unless there are answers to these questions, it is only anti-american rhetoric that is so kewl and hip these days. No offense intended.... with all due respect.``

There are a lot of unknowns in this case. Mr. Arar, his lawyers and many others have demanded a public enquiry to find answers to several unknowns but the govt. has refused to set up such an enquiry. It is quite evident that there was a collusion between the Canadian agencies and the US agents questioning Arar. The FBI most certainly detained and questioned him on the basis of information and documents supplied by the Canadians. The RCMP had earlier raided his house and searched for incriminating evidence. It seems that the Syrians are not even keen to have him and he was therefore shipped off to Jordan from where he was driven to Damascus. He did make some confessions to the Syrians which, he says, were extracted under extreme torture.
And I am blaming not just the Americans but the Canadians as well. It is even possible that the Canadians were contacted before Arar`s deportation and consented to his being sent to Syria. We just dont know and probably never will. But what we do know is that he was enroute to Canada of which he is a citizen and which is his home.
I am not even saying that there was no grounds of suspicion against him. But that any questioning should have taken place in either Canada or the US. There was absolutely no justification of sending him to Syria.

Inquirer:
``The crucial peace missing in your report is who asked Mr. Arar to come back to Canada? Why did he not show the letter for recall to Canada to the FBI? ``

I do not know if he was asked this question. In any case, he says that he received an email message from a company (MathScience?) that his services were needed, which is why he cut short his vacation in Tunisia.

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Dost ji, I am against torture of anyone by authorities to extract information except one scenario. Suppose you have a suspect with tonnes of information piled against him. You not only feel but have numerous evidence on him that he is associated with bad guys, he supports them, have participated in activities and is determined to act in future. In fact there is evidence he knows something he is not telling investigators over a cup of coffe and Krispy donuts that can prevent some bad happening then I would say get that guy on the ice block and electric shock gun and find out what he or his friends has planned next.

On the other hand to torture someone you have no evidence against, and have arrested him first time..torture someone to get most basic information out is not only inhumane and cruel but also counter productive. From all the info so for this Arar guy falls in this category and to send him to someone to torture him is totally out of line.

BUT having said that, you or other articles so for have not provided enough evidence that that was the case. I think he was discriminated and shipped out to taste the proverbial ummah justice by some bigot and frustrated guy in the justice/homeland security department but there was not a contract, verbal or otherwise, to interrogate him in Syria. Just saying Syria is afraid of US so they must have done it on US intructions is not enough. Where is proof he was send specifically for interrogation? what information was extracted from him? Whom was it given to? Did US send any other Syrians or non-Syrians to Syria to be interrogated? Unless there are answers to these questions, it is only anti-american rhetoric that is so kewl and hip these days. No offense intended.... with all due respect.

They Register Too!

The criticisms from Pakistanis about NSEERS registration and its associated harassment are somewhat valid. There has been overreach and much abuse of discretion. What you won`t hear, however, is that the exact same concept has been used for years in, you guessed it, Pakistan (and India but then Indians are not on NSEERS and are not complaining, yet). I have relatives who have been regular travelers to pakistan from Bangladesh. Mind you both are Ummah countries and what not. Same harassment at airports, same reporting requirements to the police if u stay over 30 days, until 1988 or 89, an additional need to get an `exit` permit from the bozos at police. For Pakistanis to claim anti-Muslim discrimination in this regard in the US is absolutely phenomenal. And how many editorials have been written in DAWN and News Intl about the Pakistani harassment of Muslim visitors? How many Pakistanis have protested the blatant discourtesy shown to other Muslims? Your guess is as good as mine.

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Dost Mittar:
The crucial peace missing in your report is who asked Mr. Arar to come back to Canada? Why did he not show the letter for recall to Canada to the FBI?
One thing is clear. US can not assume every one is honest. Till they establish their bonafides all foreigners can be legitimately suspected to being foreign agents.

Re Airmarshal 87

I`m afraid you`re almost completely right on this. What happened to Ejaz Haider is unpardonable. Someday, I`m sure, looking back intelligent public opinion will be aghast at such blatant overrreaches of the loser from Missouri. I look forward to the day that the same Patriot Act, which defines terrorism broadly enough to include many right-to-life groups, is used to arrest the current Atty Gen and incarcerate him for supporting dubious groups.

There really isn`t much comparison to the Blasphemy Law, however. The Patriot Act and the various immigration laws penalize action, however injudiciously and unreasonably. The Blasphemy Laws penalize speech-that`s a whole different level of overreach.

RationalFaith#84:
``Laws are not written in stone.``
...but they cannot be broken by those who are entrusted with the responsibility of upholding them. I do not believe in the logic of guilty through association but I can understand that suspicions of innocent people is quite possible under certain circumstances. So, question the person as much as your laws permit you, but dont presume him guilty or send him to somewhere else for inhuman treatment.
When the history of this period is written 10-15 years from now, I am certain that American historians will describe sending prisoners to guitnamo bay as one of the most shameful episodes of their history, worse than the war camps for Japanese Americans during the second world war.