Outsourcing Torture

Fuzair/Dost-mittar: I think the true character of a person/society shows itself under two conditions:

- When they have to make a split-second decision, i.e a truck is rushing towards you, do you save yourself or do you risk your life to save your wife?

- When they are under pressure and attack, i.e. your country/people is targeted by terrorists, do you become a terrorist yourself, and start killing innocent people, or do you handle it with grace and composure/

I think the USA is sitting on the fence. It could go either way. If there is no terrorist attack for ten years or so, it will back to normal. However, if there is one more, than things will change drastically for Arabs. And thru Arabs, for Muslims. And thru Muslims, for no fault of their own, for Pakistanis. And maybe for all individuals who look like Pakistanis.

It is interesting to see how Jews handle anything, which may even have a hint of anti-Semitism. They are paranoid in this, and many times go overboard in their condemnation of others. But there is a reason behind it. I think they learnt the hard way, that if one doesn`t quash such things in the bud, they can snowball and eventually get out of control.

This is what the American Muslims will need to learn. They are now the second largest religious group in the USA. They have the worst of both worlds. They are too large to not be noticed and blamed, and too weak and disunited to do anything about it. They have never had to face any discrimination, like the Jews and Blacks had to, and thus do not have any defense mechanism. They are still unable to decide whether they should try to fit-in, and be politically correct minorities, or whether they should stand up for themselves. Even now, many of them are busy cheering for Ashcroft.

If, ``they ever come,`` they will not differentiate between the Abduls and the non-Abduls. ``They`` will treat everyone the same. Hence, the community would be well-advised to stick together on external issues, even if it disagrees on internal ones. Had a US General made such a remark about Jews, the Jews - both the Abdul and non-Abduls - would have been on him like a blanket on a bed.

There was an interesting documentary I saw on Muhammad Ali - the boxer. It showed some Black athletes who had broken through the barriers in the 50s and 60s. But each of them actually tried to, ``fit in`` to the crowd by making politically correct statement about powerful White guys in important positions. Mohd Ali was one of the only ones, who not only broke the barriers, but wasn`t afraid to be a misfit and give all the powerful non-Black guys a piece of their own medicine. He was very politically incorrect for a Black man of his time.

But now, no one really remembers the politically correct success stories, yet everyone knows and remembers Mohd Ali in the Black community.

When people like Ashcroft raise their heads, they need to be quashed, and never be given the benefit of the doubt. They should not be tolerated or feared, or even ignored. Those who do not believe this, may soon be chanting, ``Then they came for me-- and there was no one left to speak out for me.``

Re: Ferozk

Germans were ``crying ``Deutschland Erwake!````

I thought they would be crying ``Deutschland Erwach!``?

But seriously,

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemoller, 1945.

Niemoller spent several years in a concentration camp and was lucky enough to survive. A former WWI U-boat captain, and highly decorated war hero, he was an early Nazi who was repulsed by the increasing barbarism of `his` party.

I think quite a few Americans, now that we are `safe` from any more terrorist attacks, are quite worried about Ashcroft and the amount of power he has concentrated in his hands. One can only hope that the US Supreme Court`s taking the Guantanomo detainee`s case is a sign that Ashcroft`s powers are about to be severely clipped.

Mind you, if there had been any more terrorist outrages, its entirely possible that Muslims/Arabs would have been rounded up and/or forced to have speical ID cards or register with the police... citizens or not.

Thank God for those pinko-commie scumbags of the ACLU and their fellow-travellers!

Actually, I once gave money to the ACLU back when they were really concerned about everybody`s civil rights (e.g., supporting the right of the Amerian Nazi Party to march in Skokie, Illinois) and not just pro-criminal and mindlessly PC.

Jay:

``There are some indians like, stuka and others who talk of going to pakistan, and if they go it could significantly affect their lives. ``

I hope so as well.

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chowk staff:
There was a mixup. #17 is not mine.

Urstruly#16:
We can discuss these concepts some other time. Here, I am more concerned about highlighting what can happen when civilized societies lose confidence in their own rules of civilized behaviour and end up seeking the barbaric help of the same rulers whom they have vowed to displace.

dost-mittar:

re: state agencies...have heard they are infiltrated also...yeah fundozionX and other groups who demand equal cut from the action...with or without their knowledge;)

...the recently botched detention of twenty one pakistanis and and indian was one such case and the other high profile case was that of robert samson...held in saudi arabia and released recently...

...citizens groups should be more vigilant hopefully

..t

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Jurnail sahib Jurnail sahib, iss bibi nu koThi kaid kardo...

Ainnee be-baaki vi changi nai..ikk vaar injh ee keeta si ikk baar de munDay ne..abdullah si naaN ohda...yaad ay ki hoyea si uss naal?

Dost mitter

I think you are terribly misguided about the concept of Dar-ul-Harb and Dar-ul-Aman. I dont know if I need to educate you first on this or you are know-it-all.

Those Candians off course didn`t use those words, but they used the english equivalent involving another relationship but for some strange reason, when these things are said in Punjabi, they make more sense and seem appropriate.

Romair

I once asked an African friend who is a Canadian citizen, as to whether he ever had suffered racism there. His reply was ``I don`t know; over there everybody smiles``. What a profound statement that was.

Personally, I did not have very good experience working with Canadians. I was supervising the installation of a plant in the middle of nowehere in North Canada. We had contracted the work to a local Canadian contractor. That was a terrible bunch to get along with - the guys with dixie flags on their trucks with really fat tires - but born and raised canadians. They really had problem taking orders from a brown man. I was physically shoved and I was spat at and the project was a nightmare because of their attitude. As a matter of fact I feared that someone would throw a wrench from the stack over my head. In four months I have had it. Then I decided to get tough, since I was the customer not them. I practically made them do everything twice, the project delayed for three months from its scheduled time and they lost over half a mil., just because they had problem taking orders from a brown man.

But then I had several other similar projects with other firms and never had a problem. I worked with a Quebec firm in Northern Quebec and other than language never had problem.

Urstruly:
``The questions is whether it is the bigotry and anti Muslim hatred of American people that is expressing itself thru their elected officials or it is the bigotry and anti Muslim hatred of elected officials that is juxtaposing itself on the insecurity of American people.``

It could be a bit of both. While one must condemn the atmosphere of hatred prevalent in the US today, one must, if one may be bold enough to say so, deal with the root causes of this hatred. The root cause, to my mind, is the concept of dar-ul-harb and umma-above-all. To be fair, it is no different from the zionist attitude displayed by many jews in the US and Canada whose first loyalties seem to be more to their zionist entity than their country of residence. But muslims have to be more careful because they lack the power and influence of the zionists.

....and did the white canadians really say ``behn di..``?

Romair:
Arar`w wife, Mona, is a real hero and a picture of grace under pressure. But for her courage and ceaseless efforts to free her husband, he would still be rotting in his Damascus cell.
What has really shaken my confidence in our society is the role of our secret agencies. Until this case, I had presumed that the state respects our privacy. Now, we learn that Mr. Arar`s rental lease from 1996 was in the possession of the US agents who used it to question Arar. It is obvious that Arar was under surveillance, maybe even before 9/11, and they somehow not only got possession of his private documents but also handed them over to a foreign agency.

I am not quite certain about the Malaki case. His case seems to be a bit more involved. He and his family were living in Malaysia and his family is still there. He also seems to have visited Afghansitan and Pakistan although he does not have any ostensible association with those countries.

And I am not holding my breadth for a public enquiry. The govt. knows that its agencies have bungled this issue and the last thing they want to do is to expose their secret sources and their methods.

Fosa#3
Ashcroft and other US officials do have the right and indeed an obligation to protect American citizens. But they cant do that by trampling on the freedoms and rights of others. This is what has happened in this and several other cases.

Jay#2:
``There are some indians like, stuka and others who talk of going to pakistan, and if they go it could significantly affect their lives. ``
I do plan to go to Pakistan this winter and I dont expect to see wild-eyed jihadis carrying AK-47s on the streets. But will let you know if I am proven wrong.

Irfanhamid#1:
They did not wait for Arar to have a third strike against him. He was indeed sent to the torture chambers to find a third strike, which was never found.