Outsourcing Torture

I`ll Again Say..

Welcome to the REAL reality....

...........

There is a saying in URDU......Jis Ki Laathi, Us Ki Bhains!!! and it`s so true.

saminshah:
``dost-mitter bhai i thaught you close to my age.means somthing 25 to 28.so i always reply to your post like simply``to dost-mitter````

...that was a big compliment. You can continue to call me as you did before:-)

to dost-mitter ji
dost-mitter bhai i thaught you close to my age.means somthing 25 to 28.so i always reply to your post like simply
``to dost-mitter``

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romair #114 i dont have the time to go over the legal aspects of this case, and so will grant you are correct in everything you say.

However, laws exist within a political context. And geneva conventions dont last too long in any war, let alone a prolonged, existential struggle with a hidden enemy which is what the US is faced with after 9/11.

Here an extract from a letter may be useful to read:

``War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace...(and yet) You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war.``

These words were written by the head of a conquering army that had devasted everything in its path, in response to an appeal for peace by the city fathers.

The city was Atlanta, Georgia, and the writer was General Sherman and the time was 1864, and soon after he wrote this letter Atlanta was burnt to the ground.

The islamist terrorists and even more so their supporters are no less to blame for the War against Terrorism as the southern generals were when they fired the first shots at fort sumter. And the much ballyhooed ``suffering`` of muslims has been nowhere close to the suffering that the people of Atlanta and other southern cities suffered. And history is full of suffering of innocent people brought about by war. In WWII, hitler sought war and reaped a whirlwind. 3 million germans died in the first 4 years of the war, and 9 million (mostly innocent women and children and other civilians) died when war was brought home to germany. virtually every single german woman from 6 to 60 left alive in eastern prussia was then raped by the russians, 3 million of them. and these were russians fighting a defensive war!! (a jihad, as these islamist bas!tards would put it). i am not even talking of the targetting of civilians as a deliberate strategy (as the japanese did in china, as the islamist terrorists are doing today). who cries for these people today? go back further in history and it gets worse.

Just be glad that muslims are not subject to anything close to the suffering that innocent people have suffered when caught in the cross-fires of war. While the suffering of any individual (even a guilty one, let alone an innocent one) is something terrible, it makes it all the more important for us to stop idle chauvinism and finger pointing, and realize that anyone who seeks war and violence (as the islamist extremists have been blaring through their loudspeakers for years they want) is responsible for bringing about these terrible situations.

The above-mentioned letter from Sherman then goes on to say: ``They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.``

Something to remember too, i think, for every pakistani who sympathizes with those who think it is OK to engage in violence to redress perceived wrongs done to them.

dost mittar #111 the distinction between afghan and nonafghan fighters would certainly be a rough first cut at separating foreign trouble makers from domestic afghans as you say. i am not sure what percentage of afghans are at gitmo, but i assume there are some albeit a small minority. clearly the US must have some good reason for holding on to these afghans, given that there is a substantial cost to that.

i would have been more concerned with any pows being held if (a) WWIII (aka the War against Terrorism) was not an ugly reality today, with innocent people being routinely killed in countries across the world; and/or (b) if the US was a closed society - in fact the US is a vibrant democracy where cases like this syrian-canadian are not merely reported, but reported in depth with emphasis on the human aspect. and even as we speak, the case of the prisoners at gitmo is being brought before the US supreme court.

thus, while in no way downplaying the suffering the syrian went through, the fact is that he is now a free man and his story has been sympathetically reported in major US newspapers.

Induson #110: ``When people start equating people with AK47s in shalwar kameez from Pakistan, Saudi, and others fighting in Kundoz, a clearly foreign country for them,with uniformed POWs one can only wonder.``

Please read my last reply. Would be interested in your comment on the following:

Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (Afghans in shalwar kameez, Arabs in Shalwar Kameez, Americans in Shalwar Kameez, Pakistanis in Shawar Kameez - all heavily recruited and financed by the US govt.). Was the USA financing all this fighting, outside the Geneva Convention? Should the Soviets have had a right to torture Americans, since the USA was financing and even fighting in this war.

What do you consider a legitimate uniform? And do you know what the Geneva convention considers a legitimate uniform? Suppose India did not have an Army. If tomorrow Pakistan attacks Delhi, should the citizens of Delhi first stitch uniforms and then fight? Or are the allowed to protect their city, while wearing their everyday clothes?

Incidently, since you have yourself brought in Geneva Convention as an argument, according to the GC, whether a POW is a soldier or not has to be decided by an international tribunal. Not by the USA. Tomorrow the USA could come and catch you and send you to G. Bay, if it is the authority which decided who falls under G. Conv. and who does not.

Even when a person blew up an Oklahoma building, he was not sent to Guantonomo Bay. The alleged 20th hijacker hasn`t been sent to Guantonomo Bay. One would assume these two are bigger criminals or alleged criminals than the people in Guantonomo Bay.

Following is a letter from the Executive Director of Human Rights Watch, and from Amnesty Interanationl, regarding this issue. So anyone who believes in Human Rights should take it seriously:

``U.S. Officials Misstate Geneva Convention Requirements

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January 28, 2002

The Honorable Condoleezza Rice
National Security Advisor
The White House
Washington, DC

Dear Ms. Rice,

We write concerning the legal status of the Guantanamo detainees. Our views reflect Human Rights Watch`s experience of over twenty years in applying the Geneva Conventions of 1949 to armed conflicts around the world. We write to address several arguments advanced for not applying Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949, which, as you know, requires the establishment of a ``competent tribunal`` to determine individually whether each detainee is entitled to prisoner-of-war status should any doubt arise regarding their status. Below we set forth each of the arguments offered for ignoring Article 5 as well as Human Rights Watch`s response.

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we hope the U.S. government will agree to establish the ``competent tribunal`` required by Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention for the purpose of determining case by case whether each detainee in Guantanamo is entitled to prisoner-of-war status.
Kenneth Roth
Executive Director Human Rights Watch

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Argument: The Geneva Conventions do not apply to a war against terrorism.

HRW Response: The U.S. government could have pursued terrorist suspects by traditional law enforcement means, in which case the Geneva Conventions indeed would not apply. But since the U.S. government engaged in armed conflict in Afghanistan - by bombing and undertaking other military operations - the Geneva Conventions clearly do apply to that conflict. By their terms, the Geneva Conventions apply to ``all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties.`` Both the United States and Afghanistan are High Contracting Parties of the Geneva Conventions.......

Respectfully,

Kenneth Roth
Executive Director


Full text at: http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/01/us012802-ltr.htm

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Following is one of the many statements on this issue by Amnesty International:

``The Guantánamo Scandal Continues
AI Index: AMR 51/078/2003
Publish date: 29 May 2003

By dismissing Amnesty International`s concerns about the hundreds of detainees held in the US Naval Base in Guantánamo Bay as ``without merit``, the White House is at the same time rejecting much wider international disquiet, Amnesty International said today.

``Since the transfers to Guantánamo began 17 months ago, numerous international, regional and national bodies, including governments and courts, have expressed deep concern about the situation of the detainees,`` Amnesty International said.

``Is that opinion all without merit?``

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention, the UN Special Rapporteur on the independence of judges and lawyers, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, and the European Parliament, are among those who have voiced concern and called for remedies. The High Court in the United Kingdom has referred to the Guantánamo situation as ``objectionable`` and in ``apparent contravention of fundamental principles recognized by international law``.

Full text at (http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2003/usa05292003.html)

tahmad #107: Prisoners, under no circumstances, should be mistreated. It is inhumane. Anyone believing in human rights would agree.

``most of the prisoners at camp gitmore are non-afghans - arabs, pakistanis, and a sprinkling of other nations (brits, aussies). they came to afghanistan with a view to fighting ``for islam`` (as they flattered themselves into thinking). They were not ``fighting for their country`` as you say.``

Many of the people who came into Afghanistan, to fight the Soviets, were, ``non-afghans - arabs, pakistanis, and a sprinkling of other nations (brits, aussies). they came to afghanistan with a view to fighting ``for islam.`` Interestingly, they were heavily recruited by the USA, with Zbegnew Brezhensky, leading the charge.

Based on your logic, those guys should have all been locked up in Guantonomo Bay. Infact, if the information provided by my Army friends is accurate, there were American soldiers fighting and training them, in Afghanistan. Sylvestor Stallone, made a succesful Rambo film on it. And there was a James Bond movie on it also. All were big hits.

The USA generally goes into to countries to, ``assist`` the soldiers of that country in fighting. That is what it did in Vietnam. So based on your logic, the Americans could be treated outside the Geneva Conventions in Vietnam. As well as in the First Gulf War, when they went in to assist Kuwait, which had been invaded.

These are all double standards. And I don`t think the prisoners in Guantonomo Bay are non-afghans. Even the US govt. doesn`t say they are all non-afghans. So that is a false theory.

``also note that individuals fighting out of uniform also place themselves largely beyond the pale of geneva conventions. ``

This is an interesting argument. Have you read the Geneva Convenations on the treatment of prisoners of war. Or are you just making it up? Could you explain where your uniform argument, comes into play? Following is how it describes POWs:

``. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.`` (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm)

All the soldiers need is a fixed distinctive sign, like a flag. The USA itself, was refering to them as a Taliban militia. People have to be able to afford uniforms to wear them. All the Mujahideen warfare agaisnt Soviets was out of uniform. Once again, American soldiers were themselves out of uniform, when the assisted the Afghans against the Soviets. Which army in Afghanistan wears a uniform? Did the Northern Alliance wear a uniform? And what is a uniform? Is Shalwar Kameez a uniform?

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tahmed, stuka, arjun_m, Induson:
You people would have had a point if the US had separated Afghans from other prisoners. But no distinction has been made.
...and a distinction needs to be made between militants being trained for illegal jihadi activities in other countries and those merely assisting the de jure and de facto govt of Afghanistan in defending its country.

Thanks guys for clarifying the point that did not need any clarification. When people start equating people with AK47s in shalwar kameez from Pakistan, Saudi, and others fighting in Kundoz, a clearly foreign country for them,with uniformed POWs one can only wonder. I can understand Romair`s logic(if that can be called a logic) but how can DM condemn the killings of civilians by infilterated shalwar kamez brigades in Jammu & Kashmir with a straight face? If Pakistanis have the right to fight for Afghans they have the right to fight for Kashmiris too.

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dost mittar #103 most of the prisoners at camp gitmore are non-afghans - arabs, pakistanis, and a sprinkling of other nations (brits, aussies). they came to afghanistan with a view to fighting ``for islam`` (as they flattered themselves into thinking). They were not ``fighting for their country`` as you say.

also note that individuals fighting out of uniform also place themselves largely beyond the pale of geneva conventions.

also note that in many ways the prisoners at camp gitmore are getting better treatment than the average man in the street in india or pakistan. the teenagers among them (and there are some) are kept in separate quarters from the adults; the live in comfortable rooms that are equipped with TVs and have ocean-front views; they receive basic schooling (and better schooling than anything they could have hoped for). all prisoners (including adults) are allowed to observe say their community prayers (with maulvis, or muslim chaplains as the americans call them, provided). the red cross as well as embassy staff from their respective countries also visit and talk to the prisoners.

The people who are in Guantamo are not ordinary Afghan soldiers of the Taliban. They are foreigners, or members of the political establishment. POW rights are given to those who fight in uniform as part of the national army of the enemy country. Even soldiers of the national army NOT fighting in uniform are not covered by the Geneva conventions. Do a google search and you will get the answer.

The Geneva Convention is thrown around by everyone as if it is a universal declaration of human rights. It is a specific agreement covering the role of a certain type of combatant. During WW2, saboteurs of both sides who were arrested incivil dress were shot by firing squad, same as spies, and not sent to POW camp. If a Paratrooper takes of his unique identifiers (badge, uniform) and blends into civil population, he is liable to execution and not prison time. These are facts and not opinions about Geneva Convention.

Induson #101: All prisoners of war, in any war, are generally caught with arms in their hands, trying to blow up the enemy. What else should they be doing? That is how all the POWs in Pakistani and Indian wars were caught. That is how all the American POWs are caught. Should Afghanis drop their arms anytime the USA decides to attack them?

However, there are laws and regulations relating to how POWs should be treated. The USA is the first country to bring up these rules and regulations, when its soldiers are caught.

Now a precendence has been set. And if US soldiers become POWs, they can be treated like the Guantonomo Bay inmates. I am not sure what the US reaction would be, at that time.

The problem with the US mindset is that it is always convinced it is correct and moral. It wants and expects the whole world to sympathesize with it. Not only when it is attacked (as in WTC), but even when it attacks others. It is strange to see US commentators just assume, from the get-go, that the US is a force of good, always, i.e. even when it bombs others, it does so for the others’ benefits. This has to be the height of arrogance. It is one thing for superpowers to attack others, and kill innocents. All superpowers do that. The USA probably does it less than previous superpowers. However, it is quite condescending to then try to moralize it, and moralize actions like Guantonomo Bay.

For all the hatred between Pakistan and India, I have to say, that outside the civilian wars (Kashmir, East Pakistan), the battles between the two countries have been very chivalrous. I have met Pakistanis who were POWs in India. And generally, they seem to have been treated well. I know Pakistani pilots who attacked India, and they seemed to have made it point to go out of their way to not hit civilian targets – sometimes risking their own lives. I know for a fact that Indians did the same, since I saw Indian planes flying overhead in 71. Even in Kargil, one of the Pakistanis who got a Nishan-e-Haider, apparently, had an Indian recommendation.

Compare this to what the USA does when it goes to war. It only has one aim: zero US casualities. In the process, it carries out indiscriminate bombing, and bombs the smithereens out of civilians and civilian infrastructure. Lahore and Delhi were never devestated in wars, like Baghdad and Kabul have been. How many civilians were killed in the bombing raids in India and Pakistan, in 71 and 65, combined? How many civilians were killed in the Iraq bombings by the USA (even though Iraq had no defences)? Do the math.

It is extremely important to the rest of the world, for the Iraqis to kick out the USA from Iraq, with its tail between its legs. This is happening now, as many of us had predicted. If the Iraqis don’t do it, the neo-con jaggernaut will move onto other targets, and their will be move Guantonomo Bays and more Mehr Arars.

Interestingly, we don’t hear the words, “Shock and Awe” any longer, in the US govt. press breifings. The only individuals who seem to be in shock and awe at the moment are the supporters of this war - including, the likes of Bush and Cheney, Rusmfeld, Wolfowitz and Pearle and tahmad.

While the Mehr Arars of this war, despite having taken a lot of punishment, are on the offensive.

This is how it should be. And you know whose side I am on.

Induson#101:
``On the other hand most of the guys in camp X-ray have been captured from the battle field with guns in their hands ready to blow up the enemy.``
...and why did they have the guns in their hands? Whether one likes taleban or not -and I dont- can one deny that they were defending their country from an attack by a foreign country? Is defending one`s country such a horrendous crime that people should be sent to the worst form of Kala Pani? If they are prisoners of war, then why are they not being treated as such? The Japanese in the war camps remained on the US territory and were therefore subject to the US judicial system; the inmates of the camp X-ray have been denied even that basic right.

#62 by Fosa on November 12, 2003 7:05am PT

one can smell a strong stench of hatred vaporizing in the air around him.

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#90

Let us not get all carried away. Japanese were residents and citizens of USA who worked, lived and paid taxes in USA and most of them liked USA if not loved it. On the other hand most of the guys in camp X-ray have been captured from the battle field with guns in their hands ready to blow up the enemy. You emotional diatribe is muddling the boundaries here.

dullabhatti:
You have raised some pertinent issues. There was no solid evidence against him. Indeed, even after a year of torture he has been released without any charges levelled against him.

``I think he was discriminated and shipped out to taste the proverbial ummah justice by some bigot and frustrated guy in the justice/homeland security department but there was not a contract, verbal or otherwise, to interrogate him in Syria. Just saying Syria is afraid of US so they must have done it on US intructions is not enough. Where is proof he was send specifically for interrogation? what information was extracted from him? Whom was it given to? Did US send any other Syrians or non-Syrians to Syria to be interrogated? Unless there are answers to these questions, it is only anti-american rhetoric that is so kewl and hip these days. No offense intended.... with all due respect.``

There are a lot of unknowns in this case. Mr. Arar, his lawyers and many others have demanded a public enquiry to find answers to several unknowns but the govt. has refused to set up such an enquiry. It is quite evident that there was a collusion between the Canadian agencies and the US agents questioning Arar. The FBI most certainly detained and questioned him on the basis of information and documents supplied by the Canadians. The RCMP had earlier raided his house and searched for incriminating evidence. It seems that the Syrians are not even keen to have him and he was therefore shipped off to Jordan from where he was driven to Damascus. He did make some confessions to the Syrians which, he says, were extracted under extreme torture.
And I am blaming not just the Americans but the Canadians as well. It is even possible that the Canadians were contacted before Arar`s deportation and consented to his being sent to Syria. We just dont know and probably never will. But what we do know is that he was enroute to Canada of which he is a citizen and which is his home.
I am not even saying that there was no grounds of suspicion against him. But that any questioning should have taken place in either Canada or the US. There was absolutely no justification of sending him to Syria.

Inquirer:
``The crucial peace missing in your report is who asked Mr. Arar to come back to Canada? Why did he not show the letter for recall to Canada to the FBI? ``

I do not know if he was asked this question. In any case, he says that he received an email message from a company (MathScience?) that his services were needed, which is why he cut short his vacation in Tunisia.

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Dost ji, I am against torture of anyone by authorities to extract information except one scenario. Suppose you have a suspect with tonnes of information piled against him. You not only feel but have numerous evidence on him that he is associated with bad guys, he supports them, have participated in activities and is determined to act in future. In fact there is evidence he knows something he is not telling investigators over a cup of coffe and Krispy donuts that can prevent some bad happening then I would say get that guy on the ice block and electric shock gun and find out what he or his friends has planned next.

On the other hand to torture someone you have no evidence against, and have arrested him first time..torture someone to get most basic information out is not only inhumane and cruel but also counter productive. From all the info so for this Arar guy falls in this category and to send him to someone to torture him is totally out of line.

BUT having said that, you or other articles so for have not provided enough evidence that that was the case. I think he was discriminated and shipped out to taste the proverbial ummah justice by some bigot and frustrated guy in the justice/homeland security department but there was not a contract, verbal or otherwise, to interrogate him in Syria. Just saying Syria is afraid of US so they must have done it on US intructions is not enough. Where is proof he was send specifically for interrogation? what information was extracted from him? Whom was it given to? Did US send any other Syrians or non-Syrians to Syria to be interrogated? Unless there are answers to these questions, it is only anti-american rhetoric that is so kewl and hip these days. No offense intended.... with all due respect.

They Register Too!

The criticisms from Pakistanis about NSEERS registration and its associated harassment are somewhat valid. There has been overreach and much abuse of discretion. What you won`t hear, however, is that the exact same concept has been used for years in, you guessed it, Pakistan (and India but then Indians are not on NSEERS and are not complaining, yet). I have relatives who have been regular travelers to pakistan from Bangladesh. Mind you both are Ummah countries and what not. Same harassment at airports, same reporting requirements to the police if u stay over 30 days, until 1988 or 89, an additional need to get an `exit` permit from the bozos at police. For Pakistanis to claim anti-Muslim discrimination in this regard in the US is absolutely phenomenal. And how many editorials have been written in DAWN and News Intl about the Pakistani harassment of Muslim visitors? How many Pakistanis have protested the blatant discourtesy shown to other Muslims? Your guess is as good as mine.

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Dost Mittar:
The crucial peace missing in your report is who asked Mr. Arar to come back to Canada? Why did he not show the letter for recall to Canada to the FBI?
One thing is clear. US can not assume every one is honest. Till they establish their bonafides all foreigners can be legitimately suspected to being foreign agents.

Re Airmarshal 87

I`m afraid you`re almost completely right on this. What happened to Ejaz Haider is unpardonable. Someday, I`m sure, looking back intelligent public opinion will be aghast at such blatant overrreaches of the loser from Missouri. I look forward to the day that the same Patriot Act, which defines terrorism broadly enough to include many right-to-life groups, is used to arrest the current Atty Gen and incarcerate him for supporting dubious groups.

There really isn`t much comparison to the Blasphemy Law, however. The Patriot Act and the various immigration laws penalize action, however injudiciously and unreasonably. The Blasphemy Laws penalize speech-that`s a whole different level of overreach.

RationalFaith#84:
``Laws are not written in stone.``
...but they cannot be broken by those who are entrusted with the responsibility of upholding them. I do not believe in the logic of guilty through association but I can understand that suspicions of innocent people is quite possible under certain circumstances. So, question the person as much as your laws permit you, but dont presume him guilty or send him to somewhere else for inhuman treatment.
When the history of this period is written 10-15 years from now, I am certain that American historians will describe sending prisoners to guitnamo bay as one of the most shameful episodes of their history, worse than the war camps for Japanese Americans during the second world war.

saminshah:
..you guessed right, I am no spring chicken! and mittar is the panjabi pronunciation of ``mitr``.

Rsaxena#86:
How come I am still poor?:-)

Romair:

Yes, I am an Iindian citizen. And yes, I would be outraged. But, is it not just to look at the matter from America`s perspective rather then a foreigner`s perspective? I mean, gimme a break, would you look for an Iindian perspective on Ppakistani national security issues?

Stuka: I am assuming you are a non-US citizen.

Suppose tomorrow someone picked you up, locked you in a jail, and started torturing you. Would you want others to try to get you out? Or would you want others to state that whatever is happening to you is legal?

A writer of a Pakistani newspaper was picked up and locked up the FBI in the USA. He is one of the most pro-USA writers, in one of the most pro-USA newspapers in Pakistan. The newspaper itself seems to look more like an American paper than a Pakistani one. He was himself, doing a stint in the Brookings Institute. He was picked up for not reporting to immigration for some visa issue. Eventually one of the guys from the institute had to come and get him out. Had he been just a normal non-US citizen, who knows what would have happened to him.

If torture was legal, he could have been tortured.

Similarly, 27 Indian software engineers were arrested a few years ago. They were handcuffed and put under house arrest. Some were pregnant women.

“It is a travesty of natural justice that 27 Indian computer professionals are being treated as common criminals by the US Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) which has confiscated their driving licences and told them they are under house arrest until brought before a judge.

In all civilized countries the underlying principle of law is that all are innocent until proven guilty. But in the case of 27 Indian citizens confined to their suburban Texas apartments, the INS has already convicted them and taken away their most basic human rights, including the right to social contact, freedom of movement and the right to purchase food for survival.” (http://www.immnet.org/h4.html)

If torture was legal, they could have all been tortured as well, based on a statement of a witness, or based on the judgement of a police officer.

The biggest flaw in your argument is not the mention of torture itself. Though that is a problem. The biggest problem is giving any person with authority the power to utilize torture. And the limitations you set as a boundary, i.e. citizens and non-citizens. Not only will the authority be misused. But the boundaries will be removed also. Soon it will become legal for citizens also.

The only boundary should be the boundary of being a human being.

There is a law called the Blasphemy law in Pakistan. It carries the death penalty. If one looks at the law, itself, it actually looks quite balanced. It seems like an incorrect law, but applied equally to all communities, and to all Pakistanis. I believe, it also takes into account blasphemy against religious figures of religions other than Islam, also. Everybody would suffer under this law, equally.

However, invariably, this law gets applied discrimnately, i.e. by one majority community against another. And invariably, it is applied in power struggles as a means to achieve some other objective, e.g. land dispute, political dispute, etc.. Hence, it is just another powerful instrument given to the already powerful.

The purpose of laws should always be to protect the weak. Not to empower the already powerful.

re: saminasha

{whts mean of ``mitter`` }

...that thing you put quarters in when you park your car next to it...

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Laws are not written in stone. They and their implementation change according to the needs of the time.

Times have changed. USA was once called a melting pot. People who came to the US didn`t come here to spread Islamic hatred and kill innocent people because their religion asked them to. A neighbor could be trusted not to be working for an International gang of murderers while pretending to be a friendly student, a diplomat, or a loyal American.

None of those assumptions can be made now. There is no guarantee that people who write on Chowk are not financing terrorism, killings, and kidnappings in other countries. When people believe that violence is a religious duty, they will do anything.

America has to deal with this reality. If Canada becomes the home of terrorists and a financier of worldwide Jihad, it will have to pay a very large price. Blind anti Americanism and alliance with Islamic fanatics will not do Canada and non Islamic Canadians any good.

FerozeK:

I am technically not qualified to decide if torture is a better way to extract information. Hence, my opinion in this regard is inconsequential. I guess my post was taken as a defense of torutre. Let me add the caveat that my statement is based on the ASSUMPTION that torture is helpful in extracting information. By thw way, Ii am sure even you and Dost Mittar are aware about a similar discussion taking place amongst liberal as well as conservative acadamics, and that for a change, the division of opinion was not based on political convictions alone.

I would reject the term ``apartheid`` simply because it is legal as well as normative, in many ways, for a state to differentiate between citizens and foreigners. The discussion should therefore be ``Is torture useful or not`` and other arguments should flow from that decision. Ii do recognize that my distinction of citizens as well as non citizens is flawed, not on the basis of your argument, but on the flawed assumption that only non citizens would be terrorists. As we well know, terrorism can acquire many forms and have adherents inside and outside the mould of citizenship.

My proposal therefore, is a flawed one, and is a reaction to a flawed situation where competing moral and legal imperatives are at play.

re: Stuka # 79

Stuka, I was amazed by your suggestion to legalize the use of torture on non-American citizens. You are simply asking for a national apartheid to be based on a new classification of citizenship rights and different laws for the Americans. You are more than welcome to do this, but remember that a law which favors one against the other is an argument for tyranny and that goes against the basic character of the American legal traditions, which would be purely anti-democratic in its nature. If you destroy the very principles on which the United States was created, pray tell me how have you saved or benefitted America?

This is a seriously flawed logic; the logic which can be best labelled as ``I have to destroy the village in order to save it``.

If you honestly feel that this the method, which best serves the interests of the United States, then the issue of legalizing torture is only as complex as your rationale to make it legal. How are you going to make it legal? Constitutionally or through case precedent or presidential authority?

Incidently, torture is not the best means to extract information. Emperical studies from the Second World War, Vietnam, and from the French experience in Algeria suggests that most people will say things and make confessions simply because the pain has exceeded their threshold tolerance of suffering. If you torture me to find out information and you pull my finger nails out and soak my bloody fingers in a cup of lemon juice and then push them in a jar of salt, I will sign anything you want just to stop the pain and agree to anything you want me to say. I will lie to end my pain and you will have your information, but it will be worthless.

You are more than welcome to legalize torture, but I disagree with you on this issue, because I do not see any utility in its intentions and what good it will serve.

Ciao

``Is it morally correct to torture one innocent people so a thousand innocent lives can besaved?``
Are there any studies that show that torture as an interrogative technique is more effective than other techniques? Isn`t it also likely that a tortured person will tell you whatever you want to hear. As one sikh famously said once, ``Give me Rajiv Gandhi and he will confess that he murdered his mother!``.
I would like to think that when the US decided against using torture as an investigative tool, they did it with the knowledge that the incremental benefits of using this technique are not significant as compared to the more modern, scientific techniques. You refer to the Haryana and Panjab police use of torture, do I need to tell you how abysmal their success rate is in the courts?

dost-mitter
``I too was born in a Muslim country. Should I carefully try to recall who I came in contact with during my 35-year stay in Canada and be careful not to transit through an American airport? ...``

dost-mitter bhai what`s ur age.jus curious and whts mean of ``mitter``

Dost Mittar:

I think the US should legalize torture for Non US citizens who are arrested on grounds of suspicion for terror. I agree that it is easy to feel sympathy for an innocent person. What about actual terrorists? How to get info from them?

Your article addresses one very valid aspect of the war on terror. Another, equally valid aspect is how to prevent further attacks from taking place. How to handle suspects who may have information that threatens American lives. This is a theme that is being debated and has multiple aspects.

Is it morally correct to torture one innocent people so a thousand innocent lives can besaved? Or is torture not acceptable in any circumstance even if a thousand lives are at stake? Your article can treat this issue in black and white terms only because it is dealing with one solitary case. Take this to the abstract level in terms of policy and you will enter grey areas.

stuka:
You can make joke about it, but you have not addressed the fact that your favourite Americans are breaking their own laws and civilized behaviour. I am not talking here about their right to racial profiling or even to question people on slightest suspicion, but of their right to to send people away from their jurisdiction where they know that he would be subjected to inhuman treatment.

Inquirer:
But Mahir Arar did not knowingly- and so far it has not been established even unknowingly- contacted any belligerent.
But as I said to stuka above, the issue is not one of Arar`s innocence. If there were grounds for suspicion against him, he could have been interrogated in the US. If they simply did not want him in their country, they had to do nothing, he was already on his way to his home country.

Semipreciousme...

Dost mittar is DEFINITELY visiting Lahore!!!!

:)

Yasser

re:#63 by Urstruly
Thanks for the post. YOu may be right. However, i always wondered how far a nation could go to defend its interests, faced with a terrorist assault. India mobilsed an Army following attack on its parliament to show the world how it felt. It is all a question of: how acute the threat is. Still, i believe you when you say Canada been good to people who came there after 9/11.
Sridhar

re:#65 by temporal
Thanks for the offer. For now, i will think about it.
Sridhar

re:#62 by Fosa
I have not interacted with you in the past but if you are a Khalistan sympathiser, you should go to some other forum. I think the Khalistan issue is a ``dead one`` but some rich Khalistanis in Canada and US try to revive the issue now and then. Sikhs of Indian Punjab have already decided long ago where they want to stay.
Sridhar

In reply to your question: If you had any contacts other than casual with the belligerents, as is the case with al Qaida and US you should doubly think before passing through US or for that matter an Al Qaida territory. And this is entirely appropriate for you AND US.

There are more then 600 prisoners at Guantama Bay.
A facilty USA rented from Cuba to do his dirty works.. Most of them who are there were captured in Afghanistan and else where in suspicion of being the member of a Ghost Organization called Al-Qaeda.
They are denied any kind of redress...their fault .......they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.... so they do not have any human rights ...No charge, No cause , no reason except a suspicion...

From the videos one see at CNN and some times at BBC they are in a horrible condition
the whole world sees it.. they are brutally chained and are even unable to walk properly
and are nealy carried by at least 5-6 US soldiers who treat them like they will just vanish of blast a bomb if they do not keep a physicall touch with them.


...any way...this all is a part of Messers Bush who is out to implement his fathers plan for a NWO. and unfotunalty the whole world is now caught in a QAAGMIRE called
WAR against Terroristm.....

or is it WAR of TERRORISM ........ USA`s TERRORISM for the United Slaves of America

Dost-Mittarji,

Just today NPR carried a news item about foreign musicians from the seven countries (Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Cuba, etc.) listed as state sponsors of terrorism being denied visas for tours of the US. Interestingly, an Englishman born in Lebanon was denied a visa even though Lebanon is not on the list of seven. So you might want to rethink about how you want to specify your country of birth.

Actually, I realize this is another opportunity for Iindia (specifically Haryana and Punjab) to earn foreign exchange. If Western countries outsource interrogation work to these two police forces, the country can earn millions in hard currency. Also, citizens of India may get a break as these two police forces will be tired from interrogating foreigners and may let Indians go with one or two slaps.

#62 by Fosa on November

Read book titled ``controversies of modern India`` by Arun Shouri first published in 1991

It is came with lot of references and wihch will help you to understand about Sikhism and khalistan movement

semipreciousme:
Your informaion is correct...and thanks for the invite. Will be there for Basant.

...dost-mittarsaab, thank you for this article...it`s stuff like this that makes me hesitant about going back to america...this`s not the america i grew up in and loved...on a cheerier note, if you`re visiting lahore, please let me know...it would be a pleasure taking you out to dinner...:)

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rsridhar

you write, i help...pick any subject

temporal@chowk.com

:)

For those people who have asked me ``why you live in US then?`` my answer is:

tumaahri or AmerikioN ki chaati peh moong dalnay ke liyay.

Rsridhar

``Do you think Canadians will be as liberal in their attitude as they are today?``

I don`t know, but Canadians HAVE behaved differently and might I add, gracefully, towards Muslims in the post - 9/11 world. Canadians did open their doors for 100s if not thousands of Muslim families who fled US for fear of persecution when anti-Muslim laws were passed and the grand inquisition began. Some of these families were even provided with housing and asylum seeker benefits along with free schooling to their children. Canadians have acted gracefully and showed tolerance which is un-heard of when they allowed referrendum on the question of Quebec`s separation. There was no lynching of Quebecois; there were no state sponsored pogroms; there were no hate speeches against them; and there were no militaristic anti-separation (or separation) movements set up here. In this regard Canada has appeared as a beacon of light for all those countries who are oppressing their own people who simply want the right of self determination. Is there anything more noble than that? Can you bring just one such example in recent history? Just compare it US where 100`s of thousands of human beings perished on the question of separation; compare it to Basque movement in Spain - what do the people want there; just the right to self determination and they are crushed by force. Compare it to that of the situation in England/Ireland, where generations of Catholic minority have been destroyed by the brutal religious oppression by the majority. This is the condition of the world`s oldest democracy. They have recently destroyed two sovereign nations in the world in the name of democracy while they brutally oppress their own people for the past one and a half century.

I don`t know how Canadians would have behaved if a 9/11 was pulled on them, but I have a feeling that they would have handled the subsequent crisis with more understanding, more tolerance, and more justice. Lets not forget that even though Canada emerged as a result of colonial assault on the North America yet in subsequent years it became more tolerant and accomodating towards red Indians and it became a sanctuary for the blacks who fled from the brutallity of the south. This shows character.

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to : #57 by sri on

``No paki on Chowk answered this to my satisfaction ..... If living in U.S of A is so painful for you guys, then why don`t you leave U.S of A ? Just curious... that`s all. ``

all earth belongs to god.so muslims live in infidel USA because of grace of allah.then why be grateful to soft visa policy of infidel usa or infidel.
like my forefathers who faught for pakistan actively but prefer to stay in india(infidel country)

re:#55 by temporal
``bhai aap nay abhi tuk koi article kyun nahiN likha yahaN per?``
Kya karen Sirji, Hum me itni kabiliyat hi kahan ki hum ``article`` likh saken.
Sridhar

Understanding US action.

If there is a muslim in the US who has a long beard, does namaz 5 times a day, the children go to islamic schools, wife is in burkha, eats pure hala, always in islamic clothes, uses the toilets per the book, fasts on que.....in essence leads a life to the minutea detailed in the book.

Then there is the central element of the book. Every religion reserves the heaven for its truest deciple, and in islam it is reserved for shaheed, a jihadist.

Is there a high probability that a person who follows the book to the finest detail in his day to day life will leave out the central theme. Very unlikely, he is more than likely to take part in the heavenly trip, or likely to assist the fellow traveler.

One that looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and follows the duck book is likely to be a duck. Can you blame any one.

Canada will soon wake up to this torrent of cancerous jihadi infiltration just as Europe and Australia have begun to. So the dream of launching the next worldwide Islamic caliphate from Canada are premature.

Unless Muslims look within and renounce the mentality of constant warfare against and domination over others, problems will never away.

No paki on Chowk answered this to my satisfaction ..... If living in U.S of A is so painful for you guys, then why don`t you leave U.S of A ? Just curious... that`s all.

Romair,

`....The reason I moved is because I do not want my future generations to be exposed to an environment, which I think will come into existence, if another attack takes place against the USA. ...`

In spite of your prolific writings you are some what naive. As you said the environment came into existence because of the attack, otherwise USA was a good place for all. So the reason of the change is the attack on 9/11 and the same can happen in Canada. Your belief that it will not happen there has no foundation. If there was a logical thinking behind the jihadi acts the attack on WTC center would not have happened either. The jihadis are motivated by blind hate for non-Muslims and if there is an opportunity, Canada will be a legitimate target. Remember the French engineers killed in Karachi? They were helping the Pakistanis by building the subs. But that did not save them.

If people like you who wish to enjoy the opportunities offered by non-Muslim countries, you should come out with unqualified condemnation of these acts. If something prevents you from doing so, then you should not complain when you suffer the consequence of these acts.

rsridharji:

bhai aap nay abhi tuk koi article kyun nahiN likha yahaN per?...

khair..re#7:

...we never know where these nut cases will strike next...(and i hope they do not strike here...or anywhere else for that matter)...and if they do strike here am not sure what the response will be... surely there will be response and resentment... but canada is a very small power compared to the US...their...our response will be muted i tend to think...

..t

re:#7 by Urstruly
There is a price to pay for terrorism. Wonder how canadians will react if a tragedy similar to 9/11 get re-enacted over Candadian soil. Do you think Canadians will be as liberal in their attitude as they are today?
Sridhar

arjun #52:

i responded specifically to #49 where you mentioned the arrests in toronto in bold...as you are aware am not interested in put-downs or pissing matches...have no idea who the others you mentioned are...re: terrorism be it individual or state sponsored have expressed my views enough times already:)

rgds,

t

ps: and your comments on the second half of my post?

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arjun #49:

if you search for the truth ...the real truth not biased reports...you will find the pie in your face....

not one detainee has been charged with terrorism...in fact the third day after their detention the RCMP commissioner came on record saying those held have not been and are not a threat to canada in any way at all...

...also ...ironically...the local desi community launched Operation Threadbare...to get these detainees justice and to get them out of maximum security prison while their cases were heard...and some of the leading activists and members of this Operation Threadbare include indian born hindus and christians...and of course pakistanis...at the same time i am somewhat saddened that the larger pakistani community did almost nothing to protest the arrest and detention of these young men...

---

on a related note...disagree with me or disagree with Romair all you want...but tell me... and here i include other chowkies too...what is is with calling him names?...
has he ever called any one of you any names?...then why singling him out calling him captain clueless, air marshall or whatever?...if you disagree make your point like he does...(but briefly please if you want to be read not as long winded as him) ;)

rgds,

t

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Dost Mittar ji . . . yes, I shall be in Delhi around the dates mentioned by you. You could email me on veeresh@chowk.com . . .

So that makes you a Canadian of Pakistani origin :) ... every day I get a new reason to be proud of Pakistan.

Manto:
``I was wondering... what you write for `Born in?` Pakistan, India or British India?``
All three are correct answers, though I chose to identify Pakistan in my passport.
Actually, I was born in a small village near Pind Dadan Khan, which is/was definitely a Muslim ``country``:-).

Dear Dost Mittar...

You wrote : ``I too was born in a Muslim country``

I was wondering... what you write for `Born in?` Pakistan, India or British India? If I am not mistaken you were born in Lyallpur in 1940 ... Thats a tricky one ain`t it?

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Dost-mittar and others: apologise for this intrusion...also i do not have a link so regrettably i will have to paste the entire letter here...

---

Date: Nov 9, 2003.

To,
Friends believing in principles of democracy and human rights!

Dear Friends,

You must be aware of the arrest of Acting President and Parliamentary leader of PML-N and ARD’s President Makhdoom Javed Hashmi, who was picked up in a Gestapo-like operation around midnight on Wednesday October 29, 2003.

Being his daughter, I have been knocking in vain at government doors to know my father’s whereabouts. The only indication of his whereabouts, was given by the Interior Minister Faisal Saleh who told daily Nawa-i-Waqt the next day that “security agencies” had taken him, which means that he is in the custody of military agencies. I suspect that he is being physically tortured, because even after ten days of his arrest (when I’m writing this letter) none of his relatives or lawyers has been allowed their legal and constitutional right to visit him.

I want to draw your attention to the following facts in this respect:

· Makhdoom Javed Hashmi, in addition to being the Acting President and Parliamentary leader of PML-N, is the President of a 16-party Alliance for Restoration of Democracy(ARD), and leads 78 opposition members in the National Assembly.
· According to the constitution, he could not be arrested without approval of the National Assembly Speaker.
· No warrant was shown at the time of his arrest.
· He was picked up from Parliament Lodges that are part of the Parliament, and as such his arrest was contempt of the Parliament.
· He was not produced before a magistrate, as required by law, and a police officer mysteriously announced that a court had remanded my father to police custody for five days. He refused to identify the court.
· Later, on Nov 4, government lawyers, declining to produce him in person, told the High Court that he had been further remanded to police custody for nine days. He refused to produce remand order, or name of the magistrate who was supposed to have signed it.
· The Police are reluctant to provide a copy of the report detailing charges against him.
· The FIR was not even produced before the High Court. According to the Interior Minister’s claim, my father has been booked under five different laws related to sedition, abetting mutiny, defamation, fraud and rumour mongering. If convicted, he can be sentenced to an approximate total of 65 years jail.
· Speaker National Assembly is required by law to order production of a detained member in the house for participation in proceedings, but he has refused to do so despite a request by opposition parliamentarians, which is breach of privilege of Javed Hashmi.
· It is being wrongly propagated by official spokesmen, including the Interior Minister and Prime Minister Jamali that Makhdoom Javed Hashmi has written a letter to incite the armed forces to mutiny.
· Fact is that Javed Hashmi did not write any letter. He only stated at a news Conference, that several parliamentarians received an anonymous letter addressed
to the “National Leadership” on behalf of military officers, urging the Parliamentarians to work for restoration of democracy, and demand formation of a judicial commission to probe into objective and consequences of the Kargil operation of May 1999, as well as events of October 12, 1999. He showed the letter to the reporters.
· The government authorities, rather the military agencies, have made a fake case against my father to punish him for his undaunted campaign for the end of military rule and restoration of the constitution and supremacy of Parliament.
· The demands made in the letter are the same that opposition have been publicly making for the past four years for the end of military rule and restoration of democracy under the consensus 1973 Constitution of the country.

The facts mentioned above clearly show that Javed Hashmi’s basic rights as a human being and constitutional rights as a citizen of Pakistan have been abused and his privileges as a Member and opposition leader of the Parliament have been breached.

I, therefore seek your help and support, in individual or organizational capacity:
· to raise a voice against the illegal detention of Makhdoom Javed Hashmi;
· in urging the Government to respect the basic human and constitutional rights of Javed Hashmi and to release him immediately, and;
· in the meanwhile, produce him before a court of law and allow his relatives and lawyers to visit him.

I must point out here that my father, aside from recently having undergone a major surgery, is a patient of asthma and needs constant medical care. I am afraid that his jailors, whoever they are, are not providing him necessary medicines and services of a physician. If anything happens which endangers his life, the responsibility would lie on the civilian and military leaders of the present government.

I request you to please take up this matter urgently at all possible levels in whatever capacity you can, and save not only the life of my father, but also the future of democracy in this country. I hope the civil society comprising of vocal advocates of human rights and democracy, would not let me down.

With hopes of solidarity,
Maimoona Hashmi
Member National Assembly of Pakistan
F-106 Parliament Lodges, Islamabad.
Phone# 051-9222804.

Dear Zahra:
The Canadian media are already full of outrage over this episode. Surprisingly, even the right wing opposition, the generally pro-American Canadian Alliance and the Asper-family controlled media, have been pro-Arar.
As far as the weather, the tussle is over here and the Fall has fallen. We already had our manhoos freezing rain last week. There is not a leaf left on the trees, only the rustling of dead leaves littered over the lawns of some lazy homeowners (like your uncle:-).

Veeresh:
Yes, those ``other people`` could be a Muslim shopkeeper in Gujarat, a Hindu haris in Sindh interior, or a turbaned sikh in Austin Texas. All one can hope is not to become the ``other``.

BTW are you likely to be in Delhi during the second half of January or the first week of February?

nasah:
One can blame Chretien for every wrong committed by some govt. agents and agencies. I am sure he is as disgusted by this incident as anyone else. I am not a great fan of Chretien on some domestic politics but he has done very well in the foreign domain even at the cost of becoming a persona non grata with Bush.


ajeet:
Maybe I have a masochistic streak in me:-).

Urstruly

A simple question.

If you hate America so much why do you live there?

Nand Uncle:

Your ending comment/question should be the topic of your article and should be submitted to a Canadian Newspaper. And for that matter to the American Newspapers. Just my two cents.

By the way, it`s a beautiful time of the year and winter is having a tussle with the autumn season/the aroma of pumpkin and cinnamon spice is in the air. It would have been real nice had you cared to share some thoughts on nature and its myths. Not to take the credit away from you on raising awareness, but still this is way too depressing for the pretty bye bye wishing autumn. Do not you agree ?(*^*)

Regards,
Zahra

ajeet #31: ``Wait until the jihadi conduct the first act against the Canadians. Pray that, it does not happen, otherwise you may be looking for another haven.``

I don`t need to look for havens. I was actually very comfortable in the USA. When one is well-settled in a job and an adult, then one does not get too affected by such things.

The reason I moved is because I do not want my future generations to be exposed to an environment, which I think will come into existence, if another attack takes place against the USA. It is very difficult for kids to handle that. And it will occur, according to the CIA. And I don`t think the USA can get itself out of it, because it is too caught up in Israel`s wars.

And because, I am now tired of US foreign policy, and the new domestic laws, and did not want my tax money going to it. I don`t want my relatives interviewed ten times before entering the USA, just because of their religion, or place or birth. Specially since, Pakistanis are one of the most successful and non-violent communities in the USA. America is a great place, no doubt. But not that great. And I did not feel comfortable criticizing the USA, while simultaneously living there.

I don`t think jehadis will strike Canada. They are only after the USA. In fact, the biggest fear Americans have is that they will come from Canada into the USA, and not that they will strike Canada.

The USA has incorrectly tried to describe this as a war between jehadis and the West. It is infact a war between the jehadis and USA. In an Economist poll, Arabs ranked France as one of the three most liked non-Arab countries. And the public demonstrations in Europe against the Iraq war and in Canada, showed that the West does not share the US views.

There are plenty of Arabs in Canada, and they could strike it anytime they wanted. Montreal is a hub of Arabs, and people from Montreal themselves joke about it having sleeper cells (if you live in Canada, you are probably already familiar with it). Yet I haven`t heard of a single threat to Canada, from them.

In addiition, there is a strong, ``anti-American foreign policy`` wave in Canada - specially in Quebec, amongst gora Canadians, also. I think Arab-Canadians actually feel like Canadians, and they see Canada as their own country. As do most Pakistani-Canadians - at least the ones I have met. Yet, Arab-Americans don`t feel like Americans. Many actually hate America.

Thus any strike against Canada (if it ever happens) will never have any support of Muslim countries, or Muslim Canadians. While any strike against USA, is privately smiled at by many Arab and even non-Arab foreigners. This sounds disgusting, but is actually true. And this is true for not only Arabs, but South Americans, Bulgarians etc.

Rightly or wrongly, America is a very hated country. While Canada is a very liked country.

I was in Canada, working, when Sep 11 happened. I thought there would be a wave of anger in the office. I was completely surprised at the reaction. There was sadness, and extreme criticism of Al-Qaeda (as there should have been). But it was mixed with an almost subtle agreement amongst people from so many countries, in the office, that the Americans are doing the same thing in other countries, and are thus bringing it upon themselves, unnecessarily.

And then during the Iraq war days, despite immense pressure from the USA, the Canadian govt. had to bow down to public pressure and not participate in the war.

So I think Arabs and Muslims view the rest of the West in a different light, in comparison to the USA. This is why probably so many of the hijackers flew form Western countries into the USA. Had they just wanted to target the West, they could blown up places in Germany or England, where they already lived.

There are actually three cases currently going on in Canada, which are being followed by the press, relating to this issue.

The first is the death of a Canadian-Irani female journalist in an Irani prison, where she was held for doing some reporting on Iran. The second is a Canadian-born gora Canadian, who was held and tortured in a Saudi jail. And the third is the Arar and Malaki case.

The Canadian govt. didn`t do enough in any of these cases.

Ahrar and the Saudi case are getting a lot of headlines in Canada. I am not sure whether the Canadian govt. will carry out an independent inquiry. But it seems like the public opinion, and media opinion, across party lines, is in support of the victims. This is the important part. And this is where I think Canada differs from the USA.

It will now be more difficult, and not less difficult for the Canadian govt. to ignore or assist in something like this, in the future.

Ajeet:

I did understand but chose to ignore his interpretation.

Stuka, Dost Mitr

Am I missing something, or did you guy did not understand that Jay was refering to a Pakistani Visa stamp on your passports, which would raise a big red flag for the authorities at any US airports.

My experiences and observations with life and travel tell me that Bad ABRUPT Things Like