Outsourcing Torture

Dost-Mittar:

Yes ofcourse you have to be careful now. You and I, my friend, are part of a club by birth, a club for which the clause ``innocent until proven guilty`` has been turned on its head. Therefore, my friend, start sleeping with your boots on, and commence thinking like the man who has already got 2 strikes to his name.

Regards,
Irfan Hamid.

Doat mitter,

I have a friend who went to pakistan on an official visit, he is an australian citizen of indian origin, not a muslim, but has been denied a visa to go to US on an offical visit.
There are some indians like, stuka and others who talk of going to pakistan, and if they go it could significantly affect their lives.
It is more than likely that veryu shortly pakistan will rise up in the terror list, and even having contacts which cannot be explained as for a valid reason could come back as a millstone on the neck.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Good article.

I have been following this story very closely. Mehr Ahrar and his wife have to be commended for showing grace under pressure. Their interviews to the press have been very balanced. Though one can tell, on the inside, they are extremely angry.

The name of the gentleman Ahrar was accused of meeting is Malaki. His family has is settled in Canada. His younger brother is a medical student in his mid-twenties. I saw his interview, as well. Ahrar says he saw and met Malaki in the same jail in Syria. Malaki’s younger brother spoke quite eloquently, as well.

These two families, Ahrar and Malaki’s, fit the classic profile of the Chowk contributors – Non-Abdul Muslim expats, with higher education, living in North America, who speak English well. The only difference being that the Chowk contributors are not Arabs.

USA broke all kinds of laws in dealing with Ahrar. It is requesting Syria to, “democratize,” while simultaneously sending people to Syria to get tortured. This is why I can never understand the outright support of all US policies by many of our resident Chowk expats. Criticize the USA just a little, and immediately the resident bloodhounds are let loose, trying to be holier than the pope, in defending everything the USA does.

I am afraid such individuals do not realize that no govt. will never be as passionate about them, as they are about the govt. Once a precendent is set, it can be followed again and again. Ahrar was after all, not an Abdul. Neither does Malaki’s family seem to fall into that category. Anyone trying to justify the patriot act policies of the US govt. needs to realize they could be the next Ahrar.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Canada. Muslims and Arabs have quite a bit more influence in Canada, than in USA. In the USA, most Muslims (Pakistanis, Arabs etc.) seem fearful to speak their mind. They only do so in private. And many go overboard in trying to conform to the govt. line to try to, “fit-in.”. In Canada, on talk-shows etc., Muslims and Arabs speak their mind freely.

Well-known Muslims like Akbar Ahmad etc., seem cautious and apprehensive on CNN when debating a prominent American scholar. While twenty-something Muslim high school teachers give that same American scholar a piece of their mind on the Canadian media, in a debate.

I think the US govt. will not be too pushed about the Ahrar affair. There are many stories like that in the USA, and the general population seems to support it. However, the Canadian govt., will hopefully feel the pressure. It is already being discussed at the highest govt. level in Canada, with the opposition challenging the Prime Minister. Unlike in the USA, where Pakistanis (and Muslims outside Michigan) are an ignorable minority, in Canada the Prime Ministerial candidates and Federal ministers make it a point to visit all the Pakistani talk-shows and functions. Though the ruling party is still refusing to launch an independent inquiry, I think the Ahrar affair, combined with the death of the Canadian-Irani journalist in Iran and the torture of the Canadian in Saudi Arabia will force them to take action.

Though I must say the biggest partners in crime, in such crimes, are those Muslims in USA itself, who themselves actually support the recent govt. policies, instead of speaking out against them.

They should realize that if they don`t speak out, they could be the next Ahrar. And at that time, they will be at the mercy of those of us, who are trying to speak out.

Good article.

I have been following this story very closely. Mehr Ahrar and his wife have to be commended for showing grace under pressure. Their interviews to the press have been very balanced. Though one can tell, on the inside, they are extremely angry.

The name of the gentleman Ahrar was accused of meeting is Malaki. His family has is settled in Canada. His younger brother is a medical student in his mid-twenties. I saw his interview, as well. Ahrar says he saw and met Malaki in the same jail in Syria. Malaki’s younger brother spoke quite eloquently, as well.

These two families, Ahrar and Malaki’s, fit the classic profile of the Chowk contributors – Non-Abdul Muslim expats, with higher education, living in North America, who speak English well. The only difference being that the Chowk contributors are not Arabs.

USA broke all kinds of laws in dealing with Ahrar. It is requesting Syria to, “democratize,” while simultaneously sending people to Syria to get tortured. This is why I can never understand the outright support of all US policies by many of our resident Chowk expats. Criticize the USA just a little, and immediately the resident bloodhounds are let loose, trying to be holier than the pope, in defending everything the USA does.

I am afraid such individuals do not realize that no govt. will never be as passionate about them, as they are about the govt. Once a precendent is set, it can be followed again and again. Ahrar was after all, not an Abdul. Neither does Malaki’s family seem to fall into that category. Anyone trying to justify the patriot act policies of the US govt. needs to realize they could be the next Ahrar.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Canada. Muslims and Arabs have quite a bit more influence in Canada, than in USA. In the USA, most Muslims (Pakistanis, Arabs etc.) seem fearful to speak their mind. They only do so in private. And many go overboard in trying to conform to the govt. line to try to, “fit-in.”. In Canada, on talk-shows etc., Muslims and Arabs speak their mind freely.

Well-known Muslims like Akbar Ahmad etc., seem cautious and apprehensive on CNN when debating a prominent American scholar. While twenty-something Muslim high school teachers give that same American scholar a piece of their mind on the Canadian media, in a debate.

I think the US govt. will not be too pushed about the Ahrar affair. There are many stories like that in the USA, and the general population seems to support it. However, the Canadian govt., will hopefully feel the pressure. It is already being discussed at the highest govt. level in Canada, with the opposition challenging the Prime Minister. Unlike in the USA, where Pakistanis (and Muslims outside Michigan) are an ignorable minority, in Canada the Prime Ministerial candidates and Federal ministers make it a point to visit all the Pakistani talk-shows and functions. Though the ruling party is still refusing to launch an independent inquiry, I think the Ahrar affair, combined with the death of the Canadian-Irani journalist in Iran and the torture of the Canadian in Saudi Arabia will force them to take action.

Though I must say the biggest partners in crime, in such crimes, are those Muslims in USA itself, who themselves actually support the recent govt. policies, instead of speaking out against them.

They should realize that if they don`t speak out, they could be the next Ahrar. And at that time, they will be at the mercy of those of us, who are trying to speak out.

re: Dost-Mittar

Fascinating article.

re: Fosa # 3

Please do not be too harsh on John Ashcroft. Please try to understand his complexes. Ashcroft is from Missouri and he was the incumbent running for senate. His opponent the night before the election died in a plane crash, but it was too late to get the news around or remove the name of deceased from the ballot. On election day, the votes were cast and counted and Ashcroft lost to a dead man. As to Boykin, I am sure that he will help win the ``heart and minds`` for America in the Middle East and maybe, one day he will have tea with Dr. Mahathir and say, ``did you hear about the rabbi and priest and mullah, who walked in to the bar...``

A half a century ago and some years ago, everything that is happening in the United States happened in Germany and the Germans were singing the Horst Wiesel song and crying ``Deutschland Erwake!`` No one cared and no one paid attention and it was always safe to be on the side of injustice, for in the injustice of others lay our own security. They all acted and behaved as Edward Gibbon once said: ``our sympathy is cold to misery of others``. Buddha said follow the path of moderation and ignore the temption of extermism and one day, we will all learn that wisdom and till that day, we must all suffer. Hate is bad enough and what is even worse is when hate is justified with hate and then what do we do? What has hate gained any one of us and be assured that it will gain its practioners nothing in the future. There is more to life than hate and when you live simply for the sake of hating, what do you live for when there is nothing more to hate? Those who live to hate end up destroying and defeating the very purpose of life and should not be cursed. They are entitled to our pity and our understanding of their mental and emotional handicaps, because they are sick people.

Ciao

This question is not a philosophical one any more. The questions is whether it is the bigotry and anti Muslim hatred of American people that is expressing itself thru their elected officials or it is the bigotry and anti Muslim hatred of elected officials that is juxtaposing itself on the insecurity of American people. The question is not a philosophical one any more. Just in past 2 years Americans have killed somewhere between 60k to 100K Muslims; dispatched two Muslim countries to stone age; and thousands of Muslims are rotting in jails without due process all around the globe because of their religious beleifs or simply guilt by association. This revokes the American people`s right of benefit of doubt. Please keep in mind that 80% of Americans approved ``adventure`` in Iraq; it is only when they were subjected to the jootaybaazi that they came to their senses; but what good is it; 45% Americans still want to continue their policy of anti-Muslim hatred by their endorsement of current regime.

The same argument applies to Canadian government. It did too little and too late to protect Ahrar, one of its own citizan. Ahrar`s case is not just an isolated incident there are several other Canadian Muslims who were Candian citizens, fell victim to the bigotry of American officials or even Canadian officials. One case being that of a Indian Muslim woman who took a flight a transit flight from India to US. She was subjected to anti_muslim bigotry by the officials. Recently, Canadian government arrested 18 Pakistani students on such extreme charges as being terrorists. They were hauled into courtrooms in shackels and chains with such a tight security as if they were Haniball Lechters. The courts however, disgreed with Candian government and did not find any of them guilty of any crime except some minor visa violations.

Canadian government is playing patsy in the hands of the bigotery of US officials. This is pathetic. But some little things are heartening. Last July I got a chance to witness the Independence Day firecracker show at the Canadian-US border where the event is jointly celebrated (since Canadian national day is July 1). A group of white Canadians was standing beside me. They started singing ``O` Canada`` (national anthem) when a group of Candian fighter jets passed over the crowd, however, when American jets roared past they screamed ``bhen di ph....``

Urstruly #7: There is a distinct difference between the Canadian and American society, with regards to immigrants – specifically Muslim immigrants, and even more specifically Pakistani and Arab ones. It took me a while to pick this up, but it is there.

One has to give credit to Canada for that.

Canadian govt. comes under huge amounts of pressure from the USA govt. to, “tow the line.” And I think, in comparison to most, if not all, govts. of the world (including Muslim ones), it does its best to resist. However, it is impossible for it to completely resist the pressures, put on by the USA. Ontario is 42% of the Canadian economy. And 90% of its trade is linked to the USA. The USA could suffocate Canada, and Canadians have to be cautious of that. Yet despite all this US pressure, Canada did not support the US war in Iraq and refused to join in with the coalition. And it only grudgingly supported the war on Afghanistan, and is basically only involved in the peacekeeping process there.

The Mehr Ahrar case is unknown in the USA.. While in Canada, it is one of the hottest topics in the press. He is on newspapers, television shows and radio shows. His case has been directly presented by the opposition to the PM in the parliament.

The difference between attitudes of, “white Americans,” and “white Canadians” is too obvious not to miss, on this, and other similar issues. The Canadian newscasters and journalists actually seem angry when they discuss this case with the highest officials of their govts. The officials are on the defensive. While the American journalists/mediamen are completely non-chalant, and least bothered, when the bring up similar issues within the USA. It is almost as if the American media agrees with all their govts. human rights violations. There is near 100% condemnation of how Ahrar was treated in Syria, by the Canadian media – even in the pro-USA conservative Canadian media. While in the USA, there is rarely even 50% media condemnation of such issues. An opinion poll in the USA showed more than half of those who answered, wanted all US Arabs (including citizens) to carry special ID cards.

The biggest difference, and this is what convinced me to eventually move to Canada, is the body language and attitudes of the Pakistanis and Muslims who speak on issues related to their causes. In the USA, they rarely ever get TV time. Even when they are on TV and in the media, they are expected to, and behave apologetically as if they are criminals. I saw Bill O’Rielly run an Arab professor, who had been fired in the USA, off his TV show – humiliating the professor beyond belief. Due to this, to, “fit-in” many Muslims/Pakistanis blame their own communities for things the communities never did. In brief, they are afraid. And fear being declared anti-American, if they speak up. It isn’t a coincidence that most of the anti-Bush and anti-Patriot act movements are invariably led by non-Muslim gora activists. The members and leaders of the communities these Acts targeted, seem to afraid to speak up.

In Canada, the scenario is different. Pakistanis and Arabs and Muslims are a lot more confident. They have a lot more influence. Probably because, the pro-Israel lobby here is not nearly as strong, and because the percentage of Muslim immigrants is higher, and because there is strong anti-US political thought amongst certain Canadian pressure groups already. Canadians admire US domestic policies, in general, and dislike US foreign policies (much like my view). For examples, though the overall Canadian thought is pro-Israel, there is far more sympathy for Palestinians here than in USA.

Muslims (specially Pakistanis and Arabs) are on the very mainstream Canadian TV talk shows, all the time. Almost every single day. They debate issues with American neo-cons. And it is common to see normal everyday unknown Pakistani/Muslim lawyers, activists, professors fight it out, without fear, with the same American policymakers who completely dominate and intimidate very prominent American-Muslims on US TV.

On the Mehr Ahrar case, Canada won’t be able to do much to the USA. But, I think internally the Canadian govt. is going to get a lot of heat. Maybe enough to carry out an independent inquiry. And, unlike the USA, the majority of the gora Canadians will be on Mehr Ahrars’ side.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Irfanhamid#1:
They did not wait for Arar to have a third strike against him. He was indeed sent to the torture chambers to find a third strike, which was never found.

Jay#2:
``There are some indians like, stuka and others who talk of going to pakistan, and if they go it could significantly affect their lives. ``
I do plan to go to Pakistan this winter and I dont expect to see wild-eyed jihadis carrying AK-47s on the streets. But will let you know if I am proven wrong.

Fosa#3
Ashcroft and other US officials do have the right and indeed an obligation to protect American citizens. But they cant do that by trampling on the freedoms and rights of others. This is what has happened in this and several other cases.

Romair:
Arar`w wife, Mona, is a real hero and a picture of grace under pressure. But for her courage and ceaseless efforts to free her husband, he would still be rotting in his Damascus cell.
What has really shaken my confidence in our society is the role of our secret agencies. Until this case, I had presumed that the state respects our privacy. Now, we learn that Mr. Arar`s rental lease from 1996 was in the possession of the US agents who used it to question Arar. It is obvious that Arar was under surveillance, maybe even before 9/11, and they somehow not only got possession of his private documents but also handed them over to a foreign agency.

I am not quite certain about the Malaki case. His case seems to be a bit more involved. He and his family were living in Malaysia and his family is still there. He also seems to have visited Afghansitan and Pakistan although he does not have any ostensible association with those countries.

And I am not holding my breadth for a public enquiry. The govt. knows that its agencies have bungled this issue and the last thing they want to do is to expose their secret sources and their methods.

Urstruly:
``The questions is whether it is the bigotry and anti Muslim hatred of American people that is expressing itself thru their elected officials or it is the bigotry and anti Muslim hatred of elected officials that is juxtaposing itself on the insecurity of American people.``

It could be a bit of both. While one must condemn the atmosphere of hatred prevalent in the US today, one must, if one may be bold enough to say so, deal with the root causes of this hatred. The root cause, to my mind, is the concept of dar-ul-harb and umma-above-all. To be fair, it is no different from the zionist attitude displayed by many jews in the US and Canada whose first loyalties seem to be more to their zionist entity than their country of residence. But muslims have to be more careful because they lack the power and influence of the zionists.

....and did the white canadians really say ``behn di..``?

Romair

I once asked an African friend who is a Canadian citizen, as to whether he ever had suffered racism there. His reply was ``I don`t know; over there everybody smiles``. What a profound statement that was.

Personally, I did not have very good experience working with Canadians. I was supervising the installation of a plant in the middle of nowehere in North Canada. We had contracted the work to a local Canadian contractor. That was a terrible bunch to get along with - the guys with dixie flags on their trucks with really fat tires - but born and raised canadians. They really had problem taking orders from a brown man. I was physically shoved and I was spat at and the project was a nightmare because of their attitude. As a matter of fact I feared that someone would throw a wrench from the stack over my head. In four months I have had it. Then I decided to get tough, since I was the customer not them. I practically made them do everything twice, the project delayed for three months from its scheduled time and they lost over half a mil., just because they had problem taking orders from a brown man.

But then I had several other similar projects with other firms and never had a problem. I worked with a Quebec firm in Northern Quebec and other than language never had problem.

Dost mitter

I think you are terribly misguided about the concept of Dar-ul-Harb and Dar-ul-Aman. I dont know if I need to educate you first on this or you are know-it-all.

Those Candians off course didn`t use those words, but they used the english equivalent involving another relationship but for some strange reason, when these things are said in Punjabi, they make more sense and seem appropriate.