A Movement in Religious Nationalism: Jami’at-ul-Ulama-i-Hind

#128 Mantolives

I wouldn`t waste any cycles on this gujjubania character. He is one of these ``modern`` indians who wants india to progress, get rid off Nehruvian socailism, attract investment BUT also insists that he has the right to belittle and ridicule our muslim (and perhaps other) minorities.

He lacks the common-sense to understand that if you belittle your neighbor and ridicule him, your neighbor will then use the smallest of pretexts to fight with you and ``get back at you``. And then no investor will want to come to your neighborhood.....

ballukhan #131 ``Army or Mafia``

An apt comparison. Perhaps ranks could be changed, so General becomes Godfather, Brigadier becomes Don, and Sipahi becomes Hit Man.

#127 by gujjubania on November 16, 2003 9:25pm PT


gujjubhai calm down yaar.i also gujju.so happy to meet gujju at chowk.but i think you dont understand gandhiji.you should done some research on him.he is man beyond the boundary.he inspired lot of ppl of world.yes nehru deserv what you say.he was the guy who live in his dreamland and not capacity of even run the small city

Army or Mafia?
Those who know something of the political history of Pakistan must have gathered a sense of the situation marked by the Pakistan Army evolving into a political party that has the characteristics of a Mafia. It has become a Mafia that now holds a huge financial and real estate empire in Pakistan and has inseparable political stakes in this country.

From the first martial law (1958) until that of General Musharraf in 1999, the Army has been working on the following three-pronged strategy: (i) It has strengthened its political wings; (ii) it has eliminated the civilian political forces as a threat to its political entity; (iii) it has developed its economic empire and as a regional Mafia ready to play as an agent of the world players.

To get to the stage where it stands today, the Pakistan Army has been gobbling up strategic national resources in the shape of resource allocation (budget) while it has been taking away large chunks of the foreign loans to strengthen its own financial empire. It also used this money to develop its strategic defense assets like modern paraphernalia and technology.

Most of the debt now Pakistan is burdened with, thus owes its use to the Pakistan Army as we see little in the public interest institutions which have rather eroded to the extent over the past about three decades that now they are practically non-existent (schools, hospitals, farm-to-market roads etc).

Army’s political strength has seen only two major threats while evolving into what it appears today: the Bhutto phenomenon and the Nawaz Sharif episode. The Bhutto phenomenon has survived the scheming and devastating attacks on the PPP leadership over the past 20 years. And now this legacy too stands amply weakened but still exists as the only potential threat to the Army’s political power that protects its economic empire and vice versa.

But the most crucial is the Army’s organizational strength, on the basis of which it attacks the Bhutto phenomenon, which poses the danger of existence to its politico-economic might. On the basis of this strength, it became the strongest political force in this country with its enrolled and retired officers, induction of army officers in civilian bureaucracy, payroll politicians and the sizeable chunk of population attached to its financial/real estate empire.

Pakistan Army, now having practically personified Pakistan, is not only incapable of allowing any kind of democracy, but has developed its vital economic interest in a Mafia rule that would be endangered by even a weak manifestation of democratic rule. The readers are here referred to the Nawaz Sharif phenomenon wherein the former premier kicked out one chief of he army staff and was attempting to sack another when the army regrouped against him.

The most painful aspect of this phenomenon is the use of national resources and foreign loans in a way that national development priorities have not been pursued over the past three decades, and only the development of the financial empire of the Pakistan Army became focus of all resource allocation. This has left in dire want the public and national interest institution building, upon which the economy and the social sector thrive. Resultantly, the national economy and social sector have been pushed into prehistoric stages while the empire of a ruling elite of the Army has prospered at their cost. That is a Mafia character and by playing the role of the guardian of national interest, a Mafia can lead a nation only into dangerous situations.

One great danger now facing Pakistan is that its more than 50 percent people are living below the poverty line, and they might even face starvation in the next 10 years. Shall the Pakistanis who have developed a sense of the impending danger only pray for a turnaround, or become part of a struggle to achieve one?

http://www.satribune.com/archives/dec30_jan05_03/opinion_zaheer.htm

Re: Vertex #118,

I thought Akbar, while no saint certainly, was better than the norm as far as exploiting the peasantry, etc, was concerned. Or am I just indulging in wishful thinking because I thought his Deen-e-Ilahi was a good idea for the time?

What a weirdo... this gujjubania character.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ah more insults and personal comments I see... why don`t you counter the arguments instead? Surely insulting someone and then expecting them to be quiet is not happening... ref: `bookish lad` `bookworm` etc

As for Jinnah... obviously he was extraordinary to the likes of Nehru who had very grudging praise for Jinnah , Sarat Chanderbose who called him one of the greatest statesmen ever, and those who mourned his death in the Indian constituent assembly in its session.

Perhaps Hindustan times was not part of the `rest of the subcontinent` when it ran the famous headline on 12th September 1948: `He crossed swords with the best of us and he won` Perhaps Khushwant Singh was a total nincumpoop when he published that Jinnah edition of his magazine on Jinnah`s 100th Birthday... perhaps he was not part of the `rest of the subcontinent` either...

Perhaps you are right.... but if you ask me ... the saddest thing is when people like you choose to speak for the entire `Subcontinent`...

-YLH

Nasah,

Given your definition of `secularism` and `progress`... I am rather cautious about what you are saying. You can`t blame me.

civility is not your cup of tea YLH for long -- you are back to your old form -- Manto miaN

for you Jinnah may be a God -- but for the rest of the subcontinent he was less than extraordinary --

my friend dost-mitter sahib -- don`t worry -- it was all in fun -- I`m still wondering what the argument was about -- I agree with most of the things he says --

I like the kid -- Pakistan future is safe with bright young men like YLH who are so passionate about secularism -- hope he becomes one of the next generation`s most influential leaders -- of a secular democratic Pakistan.....hopefully in my life time....:-)

``SECULAR`` and ``PROGRESSIVE`` agenda of the Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind....

``The aims and objects of JUH are laid down in its 10-point programme adopted in 1919, the year of its formation and amended in 1939, are as under:

* To guide the followers of Islam in political and non-political matters from a religious point of view;

* To defend on Shariat grounds, Islam, centres of Islam (holy places of Islam and the seat of Khilafat), Islamic rituals and customs, and Islamic nationalism against all odds injurious to them;

* To establish and protect the general religious and national rights of Muslims;

* To organise the Ulama on a common platform;

* To organise the Muslim community and to launch a programme for its moral and social reform;

* To establish good and friendly relations with the non-Muslims of the country to the extent permitted by the Shariat-I-Islamiyah;

* To fight for the freedom of the country and religion according to the Shariat objectives;

* To establish Shariat courts to meet the religious need of the community;

* To propagate Islam in India by way of missionary activities in India, and foreign land

* To maintain and strengthen the bond of unity and fraternal relations (as ordained by Islam) with Muslims of other countries. ``

---

Challenge to Nasah: Fine me any of these clauses in any of the League papers, or Jinnah`s agenda... League was not in the business of `imposing` sharia... as Jinnah said... League had liberated the Muslims from the Mullahs.

-YLH

Dost Mittar,

I am afraid this is not a fight about interpretation... it is about crystal clear and blatant lies by this fellow, Nasah. Look at his posts and mine, he hasn`t even bothered to counter any of the questions with facts... and has merely retorted with lies, nitpicking, and insults.
I am saddened that you have equated me with such a person.


Nasah,

Little knowledge is dangerous.... in your case little knowledge is choking and stifling.

``would you please keep MY Faiz Ahmed Faiz out of this motley crowd...:-) ....Faiz was a breed apart..... ``


Faiz was certainly not yours and this is further illustration of your latent bigotry against Pakistan and Pakistanis. ..You say that faiz should be kept separate from `this Motley Crew`... Why? The fact is that Faiz Ahmed Faiz became the first editor of Pakistan Times in Jan 1947 when Pakistan was still not a reality. Pakistan Times was started by Mian Iftikharuddin and M.A.Jinnah ...and Faiz was appointed the first editor. Why should he be kept separate? His association with Dawn and Pakistan Times is well known... The fact that you want to keep him separate is indicative of that inherent bias and bigotry that is clearly your hallmark. No matter how you try to twist it... the fact remains that Muslims like Faiz were staunchly in the Pakistan camp... in 1947 even Quratulain (who moved back during Ayub`s dictatorship) believed in Pakistan, so much so that she moved to Pakistan and placed at herself at the disposal of the Pakistan government.

`#119 by nasah on November 16, 2003 3:46pm PT
``one camp was a cross section of the Muslim society the western educated barristers, former Congressites, Aligarh educated Youth, businessmen, intellectuals, poets, socialists, capitalists, feminists and Sufi saints... In this camp all sects were represented, there were shiites, Ismailis, Agha Khanis, sunnis, ahmadis, pervaizis, and barelvis .... and this camp had the close support of the scheduled caste hindus... this camp is the league camp and hence according to Nasah `backward`...``(YLH)

......so may I ask -- what happened to that camp in Pakistan? YLH.......can you explain my brilliant student of our Indo-Pak history...... where are they? -- 56 years later? `

What Pakistan is 56 years is a shame... it has not lived up to those lofty ideals that men like Jinnah, Zafrullah, and Iftikharuddin had ....but what are you denying that that was not the combination of people fighting for Pakistan? The logic would make sense if India had lived up to ideals of Gandhi and Nehru... has it? The fact that you would bring this up simply proves that you have no grounds to argue anymore.



``-- are you denying then that -- the secular-to-the bone Mr. Jinnah -- did not use backward Islam to create Pakistan?....``

Jinnah did use `Muslim identity` to mobilize the muslim masses, after Nehru coopted the fanatical religious elements in 1937. Jinnah didn`t use Islam even quarter of what your precious `progressive` JUH people did... What you call Jinnah`s usage of `Islam` was actually cultural expression call and historians define it as `Muslim Nationalism.. No where was his usage of Islam indicative of a theocracy. And Pakistan was a bargaining counter for parity at the center. Read Ayesha Jalal`s book... `The Sole Spokesman` ... it is widely held to be a balanced account... and if you don`t want to read that because according to you she is `tom dick and harry`... how about reading `Secular and Nationalist Jinnah` by Dr. Ajeet Javed of the Jawaharlal Nehru University .... who is a congressite, left wing secularist writer herself.

Or is Jawaharlal Nehru University press also pro-Pakistan according to you?

-YLH

vertex,

``I need not check any references since i know the history of hindukush is speculative``

I forgot, you know everything. And hence no need for checking up reserached and puiblished accounts in the likes of National geographic. Lets forget about the books by indian history professors. For they will be automatically considered biased. After all, if a white man writes history glorifying Alexander ``the great``, its to be believed and never questioned. Thats a different topic though.


`` do you think I am misusing the term hindutva? What does that term mean to you?``

Hindutva feeds upon the fear of truth in india today. Whatever has been done offcicially in india to suppress truth for the sake of harmony is becoming a weapon in the hands of hindutva wadis. They will exploit every such attempt at suppressing truth to create rumours. Its only the truth, that can destroy such forces.
When i was growing up in india, reading the official version of history, there was no mention of the destruction of 100`s of famous temples or other places of worship. Only, later did i realize for example, that a mosque was built using the stones of the destroyed temple at Mathura. And this was no ordinary temple to boot. It was supoosedly the birth place of krishna. Imagine the holiest shrine of islam destroyed and rebuilt as a different faith`s place of worship. A cover up of this fact would be utterly ridiculous as it can be used by anyone to whip frenzy of unimaginable amount.
In rajasthan the most famous jain temples are hidden deep in valleys covered with thick forests. The idols of mahavir jain are dismountable and a secret underground chamber below the temple served as an emergency safe hiding place for the idols. You know why...
There is no mention of many common facts like these in indian history books. Quite a reverse policy is ensued by the gov. of india to hide many unpleasant facts aabout the past. A power hungry group of individuals would salivate at such foolish attempts at cover ups. Thats what hindutva wadis do.
I do not think there is any nation on earth which does not distort history to suit its ideology to a large extent. Thats why Alexander is ``great``, columbus is revered as a great explorer not a greedy, desparate individual seeking a short cut to india. Heck, it took a team of scandinavian scientists to finally prove that columbus was not the first european to reach the americas. It was Leif erricson, as mentioned in the viking ``myths``. It took the best part of last century as well for the european (christian) historians to come out of their bias against the non-christian scandinavian culture. At last they realized that every non-christian literature cannot be dubbed as a myth.
But these nations can afford to distort history to cover up their misdeeds and glorify instead. For their`s is not a composite country/culture like that of India`s. But people in india must be able to face the past in order to live a harmonious tomorrow. The alternative is hindutva wadis. May be its good for india in a way (i.e facing the truth). The presence of alternative views of life provide wonderful checks and balances against any stagnating society. Society, perhaps then develops a tendency to continuously introspect and evolve. Is this why India still remains the oldest living culture in the world? perhaps....

My opinion of hindutva is a force, that is being shaped in the mirror image of abrahamic faiths. An army of followers, who are not to question or reason the ideology of its creators.
No abrahamic faith has shared a nation with another and lived in peace for long. By nature they are mutually exclusive. What the conquistadors/ crusaders/jehadis have striven for is a nation of of one fabric. But india is different precisely for this reason. People who believed in being exclusive created pakistan. But people who believed in being inclusive have india. And todays india faces threat from hindutva wadis similar to that from taimur langs or ghaznavis etc.. And a deliberate cover up of truth by their opponents is their most desirable tool.


Adios

``one camp was a cross section of the Muslim society the western educated barristers, former Congressites, Aligarh educated Youth, businessmen, intellectuals, poets, socialists, capitalists, feminists and Sufi saints... In this camp all sects were represented, there were shiites, Ismailis, Agha Khanis, sunnis, ahmadis, pervaizis, and barelvis .... and this camp had the close support of the scheduled caste hindus... this camp is the league camp and hence according to Nasah `backward`...``(YLH)

......so may I ask -- what happened to that camp in Pakistan? YLH.......can you explain my brilliant student of our Indo-Pak history...... where are they? -- 56 years later?

with all the reverence accorded to your Father of the Nation Mr. Jinnah -- may I ask another question:

-- are you denying then that -- the secular-to-the bone Mr. Jinnah -- did not use backward Islam to create Pakistan?.....

btw -- would you please keep MY Faiz Ahmed Faiz out of this motley crowd...:-) ....Faiz was a breed apart.....

Naqsgbandi,

``Only so Kemalists, atheists, agnostics, modernists, and other such folk will not consider these above 3 names as heroes for the Muslims.``

I take great offence to this. Mahmud Ghaznavi was nothing more than a loot-hungry conquerer who left great bloodshed in his wake. And I am neither a Kemalist, atheist, agnostic or `modernist` (as you would define the term).

I agree with you on Akbar though...he was as brutal as any other tyrant. But, then, I find it strange that we Muslims of this day and age have to identify with these ``rulers``....fact is normal Muslims under their rule were being used and abused. Oh what fools we are...