Pakistan under its Ethnic Shadows

rsridhar #130 i checked that article, and indeed the indian auto industry has changed the tune it had been playing for 50 years. But that simply reinforces the point I was making to ahmedzai (namely, that nationalization does not work).

Thus, to cut and paste from the same article that you posted (and thanks for the posting which brought me up to date): ``Not long ago, India`s auto industry was a laughing stock. Its two best-known cars were a 1940s Morris model called the Ambassador and a 1960s Suzuki-derived model called the Maruti 800. But that was then. Today, for instance, the Mumbai-based Dilip Chhabria Design Pvt Ltd (DC Design) is seeking to take on Pininfarina and Bertone, the Italian standard in international car design, by designing and building concept cars, prototypes and limited-production runs. ``

And article goes on to say: ``Until the mid 1990s, the Indian auto sector consisted of just a handful of local companies. However, after the sector opened to foreign direct investment in 1996, global majors moved in. By 2002, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, GM, Ford and Mitsubishi had set up their manufacturing bases here. ``

This is precisely my point: for 45 years the indian auto sector was protected by the protectionist policies of successive indian governments. IF the indian governments had been listening to institutions like the world bank, they would have made this switch a long time before: before korea and china in particular even had anything like an auto industry.

As for my ride in an indian car, that was in the late 90`s when i stopped over for 24 hours in new delhi and used the opportunity to go around the city and see lal kilah and so forth.

ahmedzai to please note this as additional evidence of the point i was making.

Tauheed at 129:

On protectionism:

I agree with every bit you said. When I was talking about protectionism, I had in mind the one provided to its Engineering sector by Korea. Korea provided protection to its fledgling industry in 1960-70`s through a time bound moratorium, meaning that industry was allowed protection for a specific period till the time they developed competency to take international challenge head on by 80`s.

On Export Rebates:

On Export Rebates, I believe that if you ask your brother now, he will tell you that most export rebates have been withdrawn. Also, on the other hand, Government is showing much resilience in releasing the rebate related funds when approached, because it wants many documentry evidences. However, e.g., India still continues with them. As a result, although its fcy is highly rated, its lcy is rated below par by international rating agencies.

On Musharraf:

Previously, I was of the view that Musharraf could not have banned the religious parties, because of their immense popularity in the Pakhtoon belt. He just wanted to let the feelings of Pakhtoons vent out through elections. But more recently, I have been questioning my own stance. For example, why at all he let the age of the voters come down by couple of years? His intelligence agencies must have informed him that only the religious parties would gain tremendously by organizing voting of their madressa students.

After analysing all of this and much more, and more importantly, watching the behaviour of my older folks who happen to be extremely pro-JUI for a real life example, I am still of the opinion that Musharraf did a fine thing. I would leave my arguments for an off-line session with you (we can always agree on a mode for doing that :-))

The ``martial race theory`` version 2.0, the ``incompetent hindoo theory``

From:
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2003-weekly/nos-23-11-2003/pol1.htm#9 (interview with Ayesha Siddiqa)

“The 1965 war was an ill-planed war by the Indians who fought with unclear objectives. So, Pakistan won in terms of saving itself”

“Pak military, on the whole, is better trained than the Indian military. This particularly applies to the Pakistan Air Force that is a far more capable service than its counterpart”

“In addition, India has some flaws in planning that might not necessarily help in translating an acquisition into a capability.”

#129 by tahmed32 on November 22, 2003 10:46pm PT

Ditto!
Even in Indian context rebates should be uniform and rationalized- multiplicity of rebate schemes should go? but the babus at DGFT are slow to change! I have seen some the auto manufacturing units in India- they are as good as any other in the world- the problem is that we do not have proper market segmentation done by the Auto players- and that is why there is not much competition - the auto companies have ensured that their models do not even compete with each other in the same segment- so oligopolistic tendencies are still around- but the models are worth their value- so I disagree on this point.

#105
S.K. Malik is not a great name to qoute writing on Islamis Strategy. He was a conformist writer who headed the strategy department in the university with shady credentials. I am sure, hardly any one studying war cared to study him. I never did in my years as a student and thought very low of whatever he wrote.
#128 nahok,
Perhaps even today, the armed forces are the most multi racial. For instance, Sindhies are now in every arm and service in considerable numbers. No one with a domicile can pass off into the sindhi qouta and thats a positive. Perhaps the lessons that we are trying to bring out were already registered. Very recently, the Northern Light Infantry has also been integrated int the main army.
Secondly, the role of Army in East Pakistan had more to do with the perceptions against India than any spirit of religiously motivated war. Every soldier from the army and very politician thought believed that the Bengalies were abetting with the enemy. As already highlighted by #39 urstruly. atrocities were committed on both sides. The massacres were started at the regimental centre at Chittogong much before March 25.

I VERY SINCERLY FEEL THAT INSTEAD OF ARUING OVER THE PST, WE SHOULD ALL CONTRIBUTE MORE POSITIVELY ON HOW PAKISTAN CAN MOVE FORWARD IN A BETTER WAY. LET US LIGHT OUR OWN CANDLES.

#129 by tahmed32
`` i have ridden in indian made cars, and with all due respect they are still junk after 50 years of protection..``
With due respect, Tahmed Sahib, which are those Indian cars? And when did you ride them? Have you ridden in Indica? I am told it is being exported to the European market under a different name. Surely it cannot be a junk.

Read the following:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EI03Df01.html
Excerpts:

``The Indian-made sports utility vehicle Scorpio received a singular response in Detroit early this year, not just for its design but also because of its cheaper price tag. Tata Motors, the country`s second-largest car maker`s small Indica convinced MG Rover of the UK to sell it to the UK market as the City Rover. Others like Ford`s mid-sized car model Ikon, Maruti`s Altos and Toyota`s Indian-made multi-utility vehicle have found ready buyers in a number of American, European and neighboring countries.``

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031001-013327-9125r.htm

http://www.india-emb.org.eg/Archives/Sep.16,%2003/India%E2%80%99s%20Auto%20Exports%20Zoom.htm
Prejudice can always be fought with a little knowledge.
Sridhar

ahmedzai #125 both nationalization nor protection are counterproductive. in pakistan, the banking sector was thriving and progressive. habib bank, UBL, national bank all had computerized in the 1960`s while banks in other third world countries were still manual. these agencies were headed by visionary men. bhutto then nationalized these banks (thus securing control over their funds as well) and they went down the tubes. the attitude of the bank staff became that of babus, with a public-be-damend attitude. banking is the lifeblood of any economy, and bhutto killed it.
jobs are not created out of thin air - you need to have a competitive product. otherwise all you are doing is robbing peter to pay paul. i still remember what Dawood (industrialist) told the workers when handing over control of the factory he had built: he warned them that running a factory is not as easy as they thought. time has proved him correct.

as for protection: indian IT has taken off not because of protection but despite it - for many years the indian bureaucrats did not (and still do not) know how to kill the industry by demanding bribes and so on. what was protected in india was not IT but things like the car industry - i have ridden in indian made cars, and with all due respect they are still junk after 50 years of protection. as for pakistan, my brother is in the export-import business, and he says the best thing the government could do for pakistan exports is to get rid of export rebates: export rebates open up room for money making through fake exports, and serious businessmen like him who actually generate exports for pakistan are hurt.

the soviet union provides an vast example of everything wrong with nationalizations and undue interference with the market by the government.

on musharaff, first it is not for him to give a chance to democratic parties to play their role. pakistan belongs to all pakistanis, not just to the man with the biggest guns. i dont know what chances he gave to the secular parties, but i do know that he bent the rules to make it easier for mullahs to win (by accepting their trash madrassah degrees as equivalent to bachelors).

#113 His Excellency

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Musharraf had assumed that since Nawaz had already okayed the Kargil plan months ago, the entire political leadership will stand by the operation. This didn`t happen. Deprived of political support within Pakistan, Kargil became Musharraf`s personal project.
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If General Musharraf were honest, he would have thanked Nawaz Sharif for extricating Pakistan`s military from the hole it had dug for itself in Kargil.

It was the military`s arrogance that led to the situation. It had purposely kept the civilian bosses in the dark about the Kargil adventure it was planning even as Nawaz Sharif and Musharraf were engaged in peace talks in Lahore:

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http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_23-11-2003_pg3_5

Daily Times, Pakistan
Sunday, November 23, 2003

``The Kargil episode is a very sad and tragic part of our history. The more you go into it, the more traumatic it is. Nawaz Sharif did not get to know about the Kargil exercise at the right time. When this whole thing was being conceived and being put into motion, the prime minister of the country did not know about it. They very consciously only provided him an outline of the exercise in which the focus was totally different. It didn’t involve the armed forces or crossing the Line of Control. When it was brought home to him in May 1999, there was not much that he could do. He was only involved in a damage control exercise, which eventually damaged him. I still recall my conversation with him where I recommended that he let those who had conceived this operation complete it and handle it militarily. But Nawaz Sharif said no. He said that it would not only harm the strategic and military interests of Pakistan, it would also damage the military might of Pakistan. So we had to forego our political egos in the interest of the country.``

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# 121 Romair

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No one teaches any Martial race theory in Pakistan.
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Perhaps it is not taught in classrooms at Kakul. But apparently the beleief survived 1971 into at least 1999. That is why Pakistani jurnalists thought it fit to bring it up afresh in the aftermath of the Kargil fiasco. I have already quoted a couple - Altaf Gauhar and Ardeshir Cowasjee.

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I do think it did exist in the previous generation (around 71 times), specifically with respect to Bengalis.
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Yes, it did exist. It was the general view of the army officers, that the people of East Pakistan were not even good Muslims and, obviously, by implication, that it was the divine-ordained duty of Pakistan`s military officers to do everything possible (including murder and rape) to turn East Pakistanis into good Muslims.

The Shah of Iran could have never used his army to perpetuate the perks and privileges of Iran`s ruling elite because ordinary Iranian soldiers were not willing to turn on the common people of Iran on the orders of the Shah. Unfortunately, in Pakistan in 1971, the situation was very different. From 1947 thru 1971, ordinary soldiers of Pakistan had been brainwashed into believing in the British propounded ``martial races`` theory, and into believing that East Pakistanis belonged to an inferior race. The ordinary soldiers had been persuaded to believe by their officers that it was their sacred duty to punish East Pakistanis because the East Pakistanis were not good Muslims!

Pakistan`s army officers had institutionalized racism to the point where the soldiers were willing to believe that they were engaged in rape and murder to save Islam in East Pakistan. Veteran Pakistani journalist Z.A. Suleri (father of writer Sarah Suleri) has written how shocked he was in 1971 to find Pakistan army officers nonchalantly joking about the on-going rapes in East Pakistan as a service to the Bengalis to improve their genes! Much the same story was confirmed in accounts of DAWN correspondent Anthony Mascarenhas.

Yahya Khan`s predecessor was no better. Altaf Gauhar, in a series of articles, had written how ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan had become victim of the racist view within Pakistan`s army that one [West] Pakistani soldier was more than a match for ten ``Hindu`` soldiers. Fortified by this racist belief, the ``Field Marshal`` had put into motion the ``Operation Gibralatar`` in 1965. It was a foolhardy deed that would unleash a chain of events that would ultimately lead to his own overthrow in 1969 and the surrender of the Pakistani army in Dhaka on 16th December of 1971.

re: Romair`s fantasies
``The military war was lost by India, before it even started, at the moment Pakistan occupied the peaks....``
Ha, Ha, Ha!
This guy cracks me up like nobody else. We need to give our Chowk Marshal a special commendation for his `` flights of fancies``.
Sridhar

#110 by tahmed32

On Nationalization:

``The nationalizations you mention were driven by his ego rather than common sense, since he wanted to become the Wadera of Pakistan, even though people had elected him on a different understanding.``

It is documented that he nationalized businesses to protect the jobs of many people, who would have lost them for businesses going bust subsequent to BD debacle. This is the best argument that has been given for his nationalization drive. Instead of nationalization, if he had opted for protectionist policy, that would have been much better. Protectionism would have first ensured that the businesses survive and then it would have led to industrial growth in Pakistan that by 1990 could have become competent to ward off any foreign threat. Indian industry thrives today because of their protectionist policy of the yore.

On Musharraf:

``More important, is there any hope that there are better days ahead for our people? You seem optimistic with musharaff, and so far he does seem to be focussing on many of the right things.``

Please read Musharraf`s noting of crime against women in the guise of honor killing today. His statements would prove to be ground-breaking. He took note of the event where a woman in Multan was killed in the name of ``Ghairat`` by of course bay-ghairat`s of our society.

``He has made mistakes (most notably in suppressing the secular parties). But there is some hope here. He is certainly not a complete disaster like those before him. ``

He did not suppress the secular parties, but Nawaz and BB. He gave all the chance to PPP at least to shed off the personal worshipping of BB and to form Government. PPP squandered the opportunity and now runs the risk of getting totally marginalized in the days to come.

Ballu Khan

I suggest you read up a little before you decide to undo anything.

At partition .. my dear friend... the Auranzeb loving, burqah-imposing, bearded Mullahs like Maulana Madni were in cahoots with the Congress Party.


Those supporting the Pakistan movement(the so called tntists) were not Islamists... but were aligarh modernists, ex-congressites, socialists like iftikharuddin, Faiz , a leading legal mindsof the muslims, barristers, and the sufies. And ofcourse they were led by the only politician in india to be called the Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity...


These are the facts of History ... denying them only strengthens those you want to defeat.

Yes Let us call a spade a spade.

Musharraf as a worthy successor of Zia-

The Quranic Concept of War by Brigadier S.K. Malik, sponsored by the late General Zia-ul-Haq. It is a much more reliable guide to Pakistan`s psyche and behavior than the pronouncements of soothsayers at the Wagha border and the pontificating columnists in the English language media. It is a damning indictment of the Indian intelligentsia — dominated by the ‘Secularists’ — that there is almost no public discussion this work of great importance. Even worse, when brought to their attention, it is hastily ignored. Reasons of course are not hard to seek.

The Quranic Concept of War is required reading for Pakistani officials — both military and civilian. An Urdu booklet titled `Jihad` summarizing it is carried by Pakistani soldiers as well as so-called militants. Copies of this booklet have been recovered from the bodies of killed Pakistani fighters. Incidentally, both the Government and the media must stop using terms like ‘militants’ and ‘militancy’. These are trained Pakistani and Afghan soldiers and the so-called militancy is really an invasion. Call them invading soldiers. Also, why ‘deport’ Pakistanis caught with RDX and other deadly material instead of punishing them as mass murderers?

As far as the book is concerned, General Zia recommends it to ``both soldier and civilian alike.`` According to him, ``JIHAD FI-SABILILLAH is not the exclusive domain of the professional soldier, nor is it restricted to the application of military force alone. The book brings out with simplicity, clarity and precision the Quranic philosophy on the application of the military force, within the context of the totality that is JIHAD.`` In other words, all the resources of the state must be subordinate to the Islamic military machine in pursuit of its cause. This is the policy that successive Governments in Pakistan have been following. It has nothing to do with Kashmir and everything to do with conquest by Jihad.

The instrument of this is Jihad — ``the most glorious word in the vocabulary of Islam`` — which both the author and President Zia describe as total war. ``Jehad is a continuous and never-ending struggle waged on all fronts.`` Another point that Brigadier Malik makes is that the war should be carried out in the opponent`s territory. ``The aggressor was always met and destroyed in his own territory,`` he tells us. This of course is exactly what Pakistan is doing. But the doctrine goes further to encompass the whole world: ``It was the cause of humanity in general and not just the Muslim community in particular,`` informs Brigadier Malik. It is a universal doctrine, to be applied to all of us, and not just the believers. So India is only a stepping stone in taking its campaign to the whole world. In other words, Pakistan under its new doctrine sees itself as the instrument of Jihad as ordained by God.

#104 by Mantolives on November 21, 2003 5:12am PT

Sorry Manto,it is time we called a spade a spade. The secular minded have to undo the propoganda by the Islamists and hindtva elemnts in the sub-continent- of which TNT is the most sophisticated exposition which we have seen.

No one teaches any Martial race theory in Pakistan. I went through years of training and do not recall any classes or refernces to Martial race. Karachi, theoratically a non-Martial race area, has produced the most Chiefs in the Pakistan military, of any city in Pakistan.

Kargil was probably planned years ago. Just like counter strategies are planned and studied in detail, even if they never get used. At the time of Kargil, the Cheif of Army Staff (Musharraf) was from a non-Martial race (assuming within Pakistan, Punjabis and Pathans are considered the Martial race). His main General Staff officers was Muhajir also.

Interestingly the Chief of Air Staff was from a Martial race (Punjab). However, the PAF was against Kargil (I know this almost from the horse`s mouth). PAF made a presentation pointing out why it should not be done. The PAF leadership is generally quite a bit more worldly-wise than the Army leadership. In fact, the PAF did not even participate in Kargil. Other than moving some aircraft close to the are.

Kargil was brilliantly carried out tactically. I know the Colonel in Engineers, whose unit was the first to reach the peaks and do the pre-planning phase, before the fighting troops moved. However, politically and probably inter-services manner also, it was terribly planned. And whomever wins the political war wins the war, even if they lose the military war. The military war was lost by India, before it even started, at the moment Pakistan occupied the peaks. The political war was lost by Pakistan, before it even moved to occupy the peaks.

Interestingly, after Kargil and the coup, Musharraf literally got rid of a big portion of the PAF high command, when the retirement time of the incumbent Air Chief arrived. Musharraf (as CMLA) appointed the new Air Chief, who was quite a bit junior, superceeding quite a few senior Air Marshalls. All of who then retiredThe general rumor was the Musharraf had gotten rid of the PAF top command, due to their lack of support in Kargil - , including the guy who was earmarked to be the next Chief, but opposed Kargil, and was thus not made the new Chief.

The guy who was appointed the new Chief, Mushaf Mir, later died in an air crash (he may have been NHK`s batchmate or close in seniority). Apparently, he himself, did not expect to be appointed the Chief, by superceding so many senior officers. Following is from his interview:

``Q: Since you were appointed CAS by superseding several senior officials, what was your response to this new challenge and whether you were expecting this decision at all?

A: While the appointment came unexpected, my response was one of thanks to the Almighty and a personal resolve to devote each moment of my tenure to transform the PAF into a more efficient and hard hitting force....`` (http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/interview.html)

So Musharraf, a non-martial race guy, led the Army in Kargil, while the PAF Chief (a martial race guy) did not agree to it. Then Musharraf and a core group of Muhajir generals (non-martial) carried out a coup, and got rid of a completely Punjabi (martial race) govt., and no one in Pakistan, including the martial races, complained. Then Musharraf got rid of a lot of Martial race PAF generals, and no one complained.

I never heard the word Martial race in my military career. Though I do think it did exist in the previous generation (around 71 times), specifically with respect to Bengalis. The only place I have heard of it now, is from Indians on this site.

#117 by His Excellency

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Do you really think chowkies here are going to accept your ludicrious assertions.....
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The ``ludicrous assertions`` are by well known Pakistani journalists. I have quoted Altaf Gauhar and Ardeshir Cowasjee. And I can quote more. If Dawnites and Newsites can accept these ``ludicrous assertions``, I don`t see why chowkies won`t.

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This is exactly what makes Pakistanis proud of the Army.
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Well, even General Pervez Musharraf seems to be apprehensive that Pakistanis are not proud of the Army and understandably so:

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http://jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2003-daily/09-08-2003/oped/o4.htm

The News, Karachi, Pakistan
Saturday August 09, 2003-- Jamadi-us-Sani 10, 1424 A.H

A candid talk
by Mir Jamilur Rahman
mirjrahman@hotmail.com

..... President Musharraf expressed his deep concern over the anti-armed forces propaganda in the national media. He detailed the misperceptions created by the negative reporting. President Musharraf should not get unduly perturbed on this trend. It is the natural and logical outcome of overexposure of the armed forces in the public affairs. Never before in the history of Pakistan the military personnel have occupied so many public offices. Its omnipresence in every sphere of public life and its omniscient attitude has not endeared it to the people. It has replaced the bureaucrat as the perennial target of public scorn. It has forgotten the old adage that familiarity breeds contempt. It is now the armed forces personnel who run the public utilities, supervise the sports, regulate the utility tariffs, and catch the thieves under NAB, head the postal department, the universities and research institutes. With a public exposure of this magnitude the criticism would not only continue to flow but become intense too.

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Pakistan`s army is not a national one, it is one of ``martial-races``. In practical terms, it means that 80% of Pakistan`s army is from only five districts: Attock, Rawalpindi, Chakwal, Jhelum and Gujrat in Punjab; and three districts of NWFP: Mardan, Peshawar and Kohat.

Sindhis, like the East pakistanis in pre-1971 Pakistan, have negligible representation in the military. And this creates the same type of alienation. Most of the land allotted in Sindh, for example, is owned by an officer from the recruitment area between the Indus and the Jhelum. When an absentee landlord from a different area controls a large tract of land in another province, complications are bound to arise.

And even within Punjab, there is scope for resentment. Dr. Hamid Hussain has written extensively on the fauji-feudal synergy in Defense Journal (Karachi) and Covert Action Quarterly (Washington DC). He was most perspicacious when he wrote:

``The system of allotting agricultural land to serving and retired military officers have ..... contributed to the wedding of senior army officers to landed interests and corresponding class commitment.``

In fact, as Dr. Hamid Hussain has pointed out, it is Pak military that now epitomizes the worst of feudalism:

``In Pakistan, preferential patronage and threat of coercion are the two principle instruments through which work is accomplished. This means that local government will provide prompt services to the lands of the Army officers. In the case of irrigation and
water supply, paved roads and timely provision of seeds, fertilizers and pesticides, preference is given to army officers` properties.``

And recent articles (by Pervez Hodobhoy, for example) on the Okara Military Farm has shown that the military is as determined as the ``best`` of the hereditary feudal lords to retain its feudal privileges even in Punjab.

How coercive the military can be to protect its corporate and feudal interests was amply illustrated in recent articles on the Okara Military Farm. Here`s something to mull over by anyone who might have have the illusion that the military feudals are more benign than the heriditary feudals:

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The Friday Times, Lahore, Pakistan
August 15-21, 2003

EDITORIAL
Okara peasants, military and national interest
by Najam Sethi

``..... the arrogance of the OMF (Okara Military Farms) can be gauged from the text of some letters written by senior officials to relatives of the allegedly offending tenants threatening them in clearly unlawful terms. We are in possession of two letters sent to the OMF ``employees``, dated Aug 26, 2002, and Jan 24, 2003, by the farm officer, a major. These show the mindset of the military authorities towards the Okara tenancy issue in particular and civil-military relations in general. In one of the letters, the major writes in English: ``It has come to our notice that your parents/relatives living in chaks of Mil Farms are involved in anti-state activities. You are directed to motivate your parents/relatives to desist from anti-state activities and to co-op with the Pakistan Army and Pakistan Rangers. If you will not do this for the state, appropriate disciplinary action will be taken against you.`` .....``

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