The Great Turn-On

re: hope for the future
While the reality of human existence in India is depressing, there is indeed hope for the future:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=321744
Sridhar

re: prosperity in India
Time for reality check:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=321747
Excerpts:

`` India is a nuclear power and a leader in information technology that rockets its own satellites into space, but millions of its people live as if time had passed them by. The fan, or ``pankha,`` puller, Mahato, and curbside caregivers like Jamal are among the masses of India`s working poor. They are the bedrock of an economy that is one of the fastest growing, yet most unbalanced, in the world.

Most of the benefits of India`s rapid economic growth are going to the wealthiest 20 percent of society, said economist Malay Chaudhuri. They have swimming pools in a country where millions of people don`t have clean water, and they stroll through air-conditioned shopping malls where security guards keep beggars at bay.

India`s elite is getting steadily richer from cheap labor that has been one of the country`s main advantages since it began opening up to global competition just over a decade ago, Chaudhuri said.

``The gap is growing between the poor in the bottom 80 percent, and the middle class and upper class,`` said Chaudhuri, founder of the Indian Institute of Planning and Management and author of a recent book on India`s ills.

``Those at the very bottom, below the poverty line, are seeing hardly any increase in their income,`` he added. ``If this growing gap goes on, it will be very difficult to govern the country.``

India has more than 1 billion people, and by more-optimistic estimates, as many as 300 million belong to a middle class. Their hunger for consumer goods has helped the economy grow at 6 percent or more a year during the past decade. But about 350 million others, more than a third of the population, live in dire poverty. In Calcutta alone, an estimated 250,000 children sleep on the sidewalks. ``
It is good to be proud but at the same time it is stupid to be ignorant of the realities.
Sridhar

#150 by ballukhan on November 24, 2003 5:20am PT
thanks for your suport.just not forget my share in 10 million $.

#147 by saminshah on November 23, 2003 7:18am PT

I hereby declare my resolve to accept the offer made by the venerable father-founder of vadapavvland and devote my entire life in liberating all my vadapavv brothers from the clutches of filthy Indian land. I will resolve to collect 10 million dollars from my NRI vadapavv brothers and shall ensure that the latest and the best arms are provided for spreading terror on the horrible Indians so that they will one day bow to our wishes of creating a pure vadapavv land filled with vadapavv faithfuls.

durman.tk #146,

Comparing standards of living of ``average`` Indians and Pakistanis will make
little sense, in my rather unsophisticated opinion. In fact, the income distributions
are so skewed in both the countries, that talking about a ``mean`` is very misleading.
You need many more moments to characterize the distributions.

#GujjuBani
But the same IMF says that the standard of living of an average is far higher then an average Indian does....What i was trying to refer to was the reality on ground.....Which you cannot ignore.

#GujjuBani
But the same IMF says that the standard of living of an average Pakistani is far higher then an average Indians....What i was trying to refer to was the reality on ground.....Which you cannot ignore.

to : #144 by ballukhan on November 22, 2003 10:46pm PT


thanks for support my new movemant for my dreamland called vadapavvland.your support is apriciated.i think you also vadapavv fan.i will declare you prime minister of vadapavvland when it come to reality.

re:#131 by gujjubania
Hey Gujjubania,
what is your point? That India is better off than Pak! Both are in terrible poverty. If you only step out of an Airport into the streets of India, you will know. There are people spitting and urinating in the open (though the good news is: more private built toilets are available but how many use them?). There are people sleeping in the open because they have no house. There are people who are so desperately poor that they literally starve to death.
Knowing about these would make you appreciate the problems better. When you keep harping on India`s prosperity, you sound like the Paki army brass which at one time claimed 1 Paki equalled 10 (or was it 9?) Indians.
India has a long way to go. We can all help in our own ways in making India a better place.
Sridhar

#143 by saminshah on November 22, 2003 7:26am PT

Great stuff! George Orwell could not have done better than this!!

I demand right of self determination as a gr8 fan of vadapavv and on behalf of 10 million vadapavv fans. I can’t tolerate more discrimination of vadapavv against sevpuri,bhelpuri,panjabi dish and south Indian dishes. I can’t bear more contempt to vadapavv eaters from sevpuri,bhelpuri,panjabi dish and south Indian dishes eaters.
So I demand separate country for 1o million vadapavv eaters where we(vadapavv fans) live respect fully, Progressively and with dignity. if Indian government don’t hear our demands then we have gr8 tool called terrorism which time tested and implemented veapon all our world by my peaceful Muslim brothers.I pladge every right of
Minorities (sevpuri,bhelpuri,panjabi dish and south Indian dishes eaters.) Protected in new country(my vadapav dreamland) with hidden agenda that
1 : if they don’t convert to vadapavv eater from sevpuri,bhelpuri,panjabi dish and south Indian dishes eaters then We force to leave our country.
2 : when in India new vadapavv fans cross 10 millions in future again we will demand right of self determination for them.

Gujjubania #139,

``If true , that can only mean one thing - the poor of Pakistan who constitute 33-36% of its population have been banished to the rural areas``

Wrong !! Read dost-mittar`s post#137 and figure out what other reasons there might
be.

gujjubania: as for those jokers surrendering, guess who paid to feed their good for nothing mouths for two years while indians starved on the streets? guess who paid to move their sorry 90,000 butts back to pakistan?

so indeed i would laugh if i saw those pictures (if i were to waste time clicking on those links you graciously provided, which i did not). i would laugh all the way to the bank.

and what better way to make pakistan a more sensible country, rather than one split in two a thousand miles away?

are you sure you want to be spending all this time posting 30 year old pictures to strangers on chowk when your boss thinks you are busy trying to get your computer programs to work?

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Khotasikka #136/Dost #137,

It is this abject, miserable, urban poverty in India that I was referring to.

Khotasikka - agree with you on the optimism in India today; unshackling
the economy has certainly achieved that.

Poverty in India and Pakistan:
There is poverty and then there is abject, miserable poverty. There is greater poverty in Pakistan than in India and, if official statistics are to be believed, it is on the decline in India.
But there is also abject poverty. There is greater prevalence of the abject, shameful misery of the kind shown in the ``City of Joy`` in India than in Pakistan. But here too there are layers within layers - there is no difference in abject poverty between the Indian and Pakistani Panjabs.

plat8 #135

Urban poverty is huge in most north Indian cities - I completely agree. I haven`t been to Pakistan but I assume the scale cannot be the same. So I am inclined to believe your claim.

I dont know where I read this but I remember the quote: India is a rich country with poor people and Pakistan is a poor country with rich people. Yes I know its a trite cliche and a poor generalization.

Having said that, I still think if you are in your 20s and want to make it big, India is the place for you and offers a far better opportunity than anyplace else in the neighbourhood.

Gujjubania #131,

Before leaving you to secure your position as the resident fool here, let me
cut and paste what I wrote:

``Comparing with Pakistan is not going to make you feel any better - Pakistan
simply does not have these levels of urban poverty``

Do you see the distinction ? Now, feel free to run around like a chicken with
its head cut off.

Re : FarzanaVersey # 117
“yes, we have to accept it today for what it is – an Islamic Republic”

Farzana,
Indians accept the country Pakistan. Accepting the Ideology of its creation or accepting it as a Islamic state is another story. I am sure this means different things to different people, to me it means accepting that people of different faiths can’t live together. I see nothing acceptable about it. Take a look at Pakistan, the country was formed for Indian Muslims. Then they could not live with people of the same faith but different language. The same proponents are now after the ahmedia, the shia’s and other minorities. Next they will go after other sections of society. This will never stop.

Regards,


Faruk

gujjubania #131 Actually, according to IMF figures, India`s per capita GNP is the same as Switzerland. Hard to believe but true!!

Also, I understand that the average proud hindu like you looks just those tall blonde guys in the Nazi SS.

They also grow the best marijuana in the world in India i believe, as you obviously know.

Re: Dost Mittar #126

All those clauses in the instrument of accession became null and void on Jan. 26, 1950, when the constitution came into effect. The Dominion of India as referred to in the papers expired on that day (thank God!) and Republic of India was born, ruled by a constitution.

That constitution had article 370 for Kashmir, and a few other (and also 9th(?) schedule for having special treatment for a lot many other areas, including Manipur. That is what stands now. All the istruments of accession are null and void. If the maharajas wanted their sovereignty, they could have taken steps before 1950.

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Ref dost-mittar #126

[``My point was to show that the pro forma document wasn`t altered in any way. It is the same document that all the 550+ princes, maharajas, maharanas, nawabs, etc., signed.``

If it was a proforma document signed by every prince, that would imply that they all retained a large amount of internal autonomy. I especially refer you to articles 6-8 as follows:
.....]

The pro forma I showed was posted by a Manipur group claiming that Manipuris should be allowed to run their own affairs because this was the document the Maharaja of Manipur signed. So, that should be proof that the Instrument of Accession was a document that was pretty much standard and not open to negotiation by any Indian maharaja.

Nor was Hari Singh in a position to demand any special status. He had Pathan looters staked outside Srinagar.

By the way, here is the URL for the State of Kalat`s accession to Pakistan.
http://www.balochvoice.com/instrument_of_accession_of_kalat_state.htm

You will see that it doesn`t differ from what India used. In all probability, the States Ministry drafted the document and both India and Pakistan used it.

So, Articles 6, 7 and 8 mean squat. If you think they actually mean something, then we would still have 550+ maharajas in India (and a few in Pakistan) runing their fiefdoms.

re:#108 by saminshah
I apologise for the mistake i made. I stand corrected.
Sridhar

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harimour#119:
``My point was to show that the pro forma document wasn`t altered in any way. It is the same document that all the 550+ princes, maharajas, maharanas, nawabs, etc., signed.``

If it was a proforma document signed by every prince, that would imply that they all retained a large amount of internal autonomy. I especially refer you to articles 6-8 as follows:

``6. Nothing in this instrument shall empower the Dominion Legislature to make any law for this State authorising the compulsory acquisition of land for any purpose, but I hereby undertake that should the Dominion for the purposes of a Dominion law which applies in this State deem it necessary to acquire any land, I will at their request acquire the land at their expense or if the land belongs to me transfer it to them on such terms as may be agreed, or, in default of agreement, determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the chief Justice of India.

7. Nothing in this Instrument shall be deemed to commit me in any way to acceptance of any future constitution of India or to fetter my discretion to enter into arrangements with the Government of India under any such future constitution.

8. Nothing in this Instrument affects the continuance of my sovereignty in and over this State, or, save as provided by or under this Instrument, the exercise of any powers, authority and rights now enjoyed by me as Ruler of this State or the validity of any law at present in force in this Stat``

Gujjubania #110/121,

``You have the right to your opinion on that one . Don`t think any of the Indian readers
will agree with you though.``

I do agree with her that the action of many Hindus are an insult to the idea of India.
I suppose that makes me a Pakistani as well. Do you even get the idea of dissent
in a democracy ?

``the anger against muslims is basically because there is a general perception that they(Indian Muslims) are anti-India``

And as we all know, Hindus never mis-perceive.

Enjoyed reading it Farzana jee..

Re. the risk of a plebiscite being worth taking, do we want a continuous process of living in tension and suspense? .................

It is better not to let this frankenstein of TNT whose unclaimed progeny is the Kashmir-Issue raise its head again in the Indian sub-continent. Indian muslims, apart from the KAshmiris, do not accept the Paki theory that there still remains any un-finuished business of partition of which the rest of the Indian muslims are a part of.

Ref dost-mittar #116

[The embassy document refers to a schedule for the jurisdictions transferred, but the schedule is not shown. However, the blank document does refer to the specific areas transferred. These are basically Defense, External and Communications, ...]

My point was to show that the pro forma document wasn`t altered in any way. It is the same document that all the 550+ princes, maharajas, maharanas, nawabs, etc., signed.

Ref FarzanaVersey #93

[I have never talked about giving away Kashmir to Pakistan… ]

Don`t make me dig up your post where you wondered about what would be the position of the Pandits in an azadi Kashmir. You know I can and will do it unless Chowk disables access to your old posts, which I know they are capable of.

[I do not need to be legitimised by the likes of you.]

Not one Indian wants to legitimize you as anything except a raving lunatic.

[You prove just how sick you are with the following comments…]

What, you don`t like when I suggest that we pay back your co-religionists in the same coin? Why not?

[So, when you support kicking the butt of a section of people, are there others in your list too?]

Yes. Anyone in my home state of Tamil Nadu who thinks TN needs to secede from India is on my list.

[As most interactors are obsessed with Pakistan and my Pakistani ‘constituency’ at Chowk, I can say with conviction that not one Pakistani thinks of me as anything but an Indian. And they also believe that I represent my country better than most Hindus here.]

Oh. they WISH that you represent the bend-over-with-your-hands-on-your-knees India that they were so used to under Congress governments. Why, they are even happy with Vajpayee. I am waiting for Advani to take over and put the Pakistanis in their place.

[I certainly am a proud representative of India…]

You would be prouder if we slice off Kashmir. Tell you what: stick an Ummah flag of your choice in your flat in Bombay and declare yourself to be the Independent Republic of Burqa.

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Ref FarzanaVersey #117

[There has been some misunderstanding regarding my comment....By ideological entity, I was clearly talking about what it meant at the time of its creation.]

What do you mean, India didn`t accept Pakistan in 1947? Did India not establish diplomatic relations with Pakistan? Did India go to war with the intention of re-uniting the country? Did not Nehru and Patel and the entire Congress accept Partition? What more do you want, a signed affidavit from Nehru?

[And for India it was like getting rid of a gangrenous limb.]

The only gangrenous limb was Jinnah and his cohorts at the All-India Muslim League. If we lost territory to get rid of these people, Nehru was willing to do it. Mao Zedong would have sent out hit squads to eliminate Jinnah, Liaquat Ali Khan, etc.

[It has nothing to do with its present ideology. And yes, we have to accept it today for what it is – an Islamic Republic. Like we accept Saudi Arabia. Just as we accepted The Soviet Union as a Communist country and the UK as a monarchy.]

So, when they finally got around to adopting a constitution, the Pakistanis called their country the Islamic Republic? What was it in 1947? The Islamic Homeland, wasn`t it? In case you have forgotten, get Field Marshal Romair to fill in this slogan: Pakistan ki matlab kya.....

[We are again talking about which side has better protected the interests of Kashmiris; I am not interested in POK at all.]

Let us see. Does the VHP go around splashing acid on the faces of unveiled Kashmiri women? Does the Bajrang Dal threaten women who wear jeans?

[Re. the risk of a plebiscite being worth taking,....]

I don`t have any risk in a plebiscite. The vast majority of Hindus don`t have a risk in a plebiscite. You, Farzana, may think you don`t have a risk in a plebiscite. But the average Bihari or UP Muslim has a huge risk. This is not Czechoslovakia we are talking about so that it would result in a ``velvet divorce``. We would have ``Trains to Pakistan`` all over again. That is the reality and you know it. But you are willing to sacrifice several million Muslims` lives so that some illusional free expression can take place.

Tell you what, go and tell the local mullah during Friday prayers why you think Islam needs to be reformed and then see what this ``free expression`` in an Islamic society is like.

[.... do we want a continuous process of living in tension and suspense?]

What, you don`t want bombs in Bombay? Come on, Farzana, it is your buddies from across the border.

By the way, were there any bombs in Bombay before 1989? Or in Srinagar?

[Even the major extremist outfits are not pro-Pakistan; Yaseen Malik, the person the Indian government should have got on its side, has expressed his disillusionment often about how no one involves the Kashmiris when any India-Pakistan dialogue takes place.]

Indo-Pak dialog is between India and Pakistan. We don`t involve Bengalis in it so why Kashmiris. Kashmiris can sit down and talk to the Indian government like the Nagas are doing.

[I do agree that the locals want to do business. When the CM invited film-makers to visit and look to shoot their movies in the Valley, a delegation had gone there, but it will still be Switzerland.]

You must grant that Switzerland offers more facilities such as hotels, transportation by bus, train and car as opposed to travel by horseback in Kashmir.

[I am not sure the big hotel chains will be ready to invest huge amounts unless they are assured of returns and safety. And what happens to the small shikara owners?]

This is the same kind of crap that prevents development. You can`t build cable cars because that would affect the livelihood of those who are renting out mangy horses to tourists. You can`t build a Hyatt because it would affect the business of Ghulam Baksh who has a three-room hotel in Pahalgam. Tough luck; these guys can continue to live on renting out horses (which still need to be fed even in winter when nobody is renting them; does it make economic sense at all?) or plying shikaras.

[Mine is a point of view; it is not the only one and am sure there are better ones.]

Mine IS the better one.

[Kashmir was an example of perfect cohesion at one time; the Kashmiri version of Islam was Sufi; the people there were just all right.]

They became Sufi AFTER forcible conversion. Please explain to us Brahmins of the Indo-Gangetic and Deccan plains why the Kashmiri brahmins converted to Islam but we haven`t.

[The question is not of whether they can co-exist. Are they allowed to?]

Allowed by whom? You think the Pandits are killing the Kashmiri Muslims?

[We have gone through this before several times… ]

Yep. With you carefully choosing your words to sound reasonable and to hide the facts.

[Even on this forum you have statements like…
“What part do you want to be: a latter-day Jinnah?”]

Yep. That was moi.

[And thank you everyone for the views expressed.]

You are welcome.

[Perhaps there will be more...some other time.]

Perhaps? I am SURE there will be more from you.

[Regards.]

Regards to you too. See, I refrained from saying XXOO.

Harimau

Another interesting article

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EK20Df03.html

Faruk

Dost-mittarji, Faruk, stuka,:

There has been some misunderstanding regarding my comment, “But we do not accept the country as an ideological entity; it is like getting rid of a gangrenous limb”. It was said in response to a specific post: “If you think Indians don’t accept the creation of Pakistan just ask any Indians if they want them back. You will get only one answer “Hell No!” That convinces me that we have accepted the creation of Pakistan.” By ideological entity, I was clearly talking about what it meant at the time of its creation. And for India it was like getting rid of a gangrenous limb. It has nothing to do with its present ideology. And yes, we have to accept it today for what it is – an Islamic Republic. Like we accept Saudi Arabia. Just as we accepted The Soviet Union as a Communist country and the UK as a monarchy.

We are again talking about which side has better protected the interests of Kashmiris; I am not interested in POK at all.

Re. the risk of a plebiscite being worth taking, do we want a continuous process of living in tension and suspense? Even the major extremist outfits are not pro-Pakistan; Yaseen Malik, the person the Indian government should have got on its side, has expressed his disillusionment often about how no one involves the Kashmiris when any India-Pakistan dialogue takes place.

Re. the economy, Faruk, I do agree that the locals want to do business. When the CM invited film-makers to visit and look to shoot their movies in the Valley, a delegation had gone there, but it will still be Switzerland. I am not sure the big hotel chains will be ready to invest huge amounts unless they are assured of returns and safety. And what happens to the small shikara owners? There is probably more business in the last few years because people need to survive. But there are issues other than physical survival. Mine is a point of view; it is not the only one and am sure there are better ones.

Hi Mahesh:
Itney dinon baad aaye ho, kuchh tareef bhi kar detey…jhoothee hi sahee…not one word about the article, but you have read the interacts. Holocaust? Who will be killing whom here? And what has been happening in all these years? Kashmir was an example of perfect cohesion at one time; the Kashmiri version of Islam was Sufi; the people there were just all right. The question is not of whether they can co-exist. Are they allowed to? We have gone through this before several times…

Anyway, good to have you back…

#110:
[…its revealing that you are more interested in your Pakistani readership. You will do well to notice every Indian reader in this forum , particularly Indian Muslims like Ballu Khan have shown nothing but contempt for you and your juvenile ideas . But then , you dont really care , do you ?]

Re. my interest in the Pakistani readership, I have neverstarted it; it was always forced into discussions. Even on this forum you have statements like…

“She has balanced her criticisms well to please both Paki and Indian interactors.”
“What part do you want to be: a latter-day Jinnah?”

I do take cognisance of what is said, but if I started caring about insults, then I would not be in a position to state what I want to or indulge in any kind of dialogue with those that matter. I do not think veeresh, stuka, dost-mittarji, Faruk, even AnOrdinaryHindu have shown contempt for me; they have disagreed on certain points, maybe even all of them in this article. As regards Indian Muslims (I would not personally make an issue of Indian Hindu and Muslim interactors), you might like to check out the posts of Zafar, a mature, popular among all and valued Chowkie, and see whether he held me in any contempt. I can say with some degree of certainty that many Indians are ashamed of the level to which some of you stoop.

The comments about my not respecting the national anthem and flag and being a security risk were the pits. The decent thing for you would be to come forward and take back those words, since apologising to a member of a community that needs to be kicked out is asking for too much.

Besides, instead of trying to nit-pick and score points, which you do not score incidentally, you might have answered the counter-queries I posed you. I repeat from my post #93:
“Now you tell me what have you done for my country? By seeking to kick a section of the population out, how are you promoting brotherhood, integrity? Or is this your idea of promoting excellence by getting rid of us? Is this some scientific calculation based on the theory of gravitation or relativity? And you insult the national flag and anthem for what they symbolise. And you think you will defend my country? You will sell it to the dogs; you already have. And you are the cheerleader for them.”

Goodbye to you too.

And thank you everyone for the views expressed. Perhaps there will be more...some other time.

Regards,
Farzana

harimou#95:
The embassy document refers to a schedule for the jurisdictions transferred, but the schedule is not shown. However, the blank document does refer to the specific areas transferred. These are basically Defense, External and Communications, as follows:

``The matters with Respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make laws for this State.

I. Defence
The naval, military and air forces of the Dominion and any other armed force raised or maintained by the Dominion, any armed forces, including forces raised or maintained by an Acceding State, which are attached to, or operating with, any of the armed forces of the Dominion.

Naval, military and air force works, administration of cantonment areas.

Arms; fire-arms; ammunition.

Explosives.


II. External Affairs.
External Affaire; the implementing of treaties and agreements with other countries; extradition, including the surrender of criminals and accused persons to parts of His Majesty`s dominions outside India.

Admission into, and emigration and expulsion from, India, including in relation thereto the regulation of the movements in India of persons who are not British subjects domiciled in India or subjects of any acceding State; pilgrimages to places beyond India.

Naturalisation.


III. Communications
Posts and telegraphs, including telephones, wireless, broadcasting. and other like forms of communication.

Federal railway; the regulation of all railways other than minor railways in respect of safety, maximum and minimum rates and fares, station and service terminal charges, interchange of traffic and the responsibility of railway administrations as carriers of goods and passengers; regulation of minor railways in respect of safety and the responsibility of the administrations of such railways as carriers of goods and passengers.

Maritime shipping and navigation including shipping and navigation on tidal waters, Admiralty jurisdiction.

Port quarantine .

Major ports, that is to say, the declaration and delimitation of such ports, and the constitution and powers port Authorities therein.

Aircraft and air navigation, the provision of aerodromes; regulation and organisation of air traffic and aerodromes.

Lighthouses, including lightships, beacons and other provisions for the safety of shipping and aircraft.

Carriage of passengers and goods by sea or by air.

Extension of the powers and jurisdiction of members of the police force belonging to any unit to railway area outside that unit.


IV. Ancillary.
Elections to the dominion Legislature, subject to the provisions of the Act and of any Other made thereunder.

Offences against laws with respect to any of the aforesaid matters.

Inquiries and statistics for the purposes of any of the aforesaid matters.

Jurisdiction and powers of all courts with respect to any of the aforesaid matters but, except with the consent of the Ruler of the Acceding State, not so as to confer any jurisdiction or powers upon any courts other than courts ordinarily exercising jurisdiction in or in relation to that State.``

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Ref dost-mittar #95

[I think Nehru made a big mistake wrt Kashmir in two opposite ways. First, he changed the terms of the instrument of accession to deprive Kashmir of the special status that the Maharaja had obtained for Kashmir and thus alienating a large segment of pro-Indian Kashmiris. And secondly, by doing so in a half-hearted manner by introducing section 370 which prevented the full integration of Kashmiris with India.]

There were NO changes to the terms of the Instrument of Accession. The blank form is available for your review at:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/4568/memorandum/a109-211.html

The form as signed by Maharaja Hari Singh and its acceptance by Lord Mountbatten in his capacity as Governor-General of India is at:

http://www.indianembassy.org/policy/Kashmir/kashmiraccession.htm

The Instrument of Accession is dated October 26, 1947 and the Constitution of India was approved and adopted on January 30, 1950. Article 370 was added to make Sheikh Abdullah happy that his title would be Prime Minister instead of Chief Minister as with other provinces of India. All special provisions of Article 370 were put in to PROTECT the property rights of Kashmiris, so India went out of the way to support Sheikh Abdullah`s demands.

The terms of the Instrument of Accession were NOT abrogated by the Consitution of India; in fact, they were enlarged.

saminshah # 108

Sridhar misread your post.

# You are exactly the kind of Indian that the Pakistanis want - the others being Praful Bidwai , Arundhati Roy , K.Nayyar , Pankaj Mishra (of `Indian Army killed the Sikhs in Chattispura ,J&K` fame) - think about it.

I dont see what your problem with Praful Bidwai is. He talks about what an a$$ Modi is. And Nayyar is candid about what India`s mistakes in Kashmir are. Both issues are real. We goofed up in Kashmir bigtime and the knickerwalas set the country`s traditions on fire. Facts. So dont shoot the messenger.

Just because we`re Indian - apan bhi doodh ke dhulele nahin hai.

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Hello Farzana,

Long time since we exchanged any posts.

Now I see that you think the risk of another holocaust of millions is well worth the risk of letting some misguided Kashmiris have their way.

Why? Do you think India will fall apart otherwise?

What could be the worse than millions dying again and 1947 starting all over again?

Do you really think people who think that they can`t co-exist with other kinds will rest till they are living just by themselves?

#95 by dost-mittar on November 18, 2003 6:45am PT


``....without a plebisicite whose results could be disastrous for India. ....``

forget India.....I would only worry about Indian muslims first. Every Indian muslims would confront this communal question again - despite the fact that their decision to stay in India since 1947 itself is an affirmation of their answer to the communal question that was forced on them by the Leagues in 1947.
The Kashmir question and its fate is entwined with the fate of the millions of other Indian muslims- the Indian muslims want these jehadis out of their land- and the evil called Pakistan army back to its barracks.

``Shahi Imam challenges Geelani on Kashmir

The high priest of India`s largest mosque has challenged hardline Kashmiri separatist leader Ali Shah Geelani`s contention that the Himalayan state should be merged with Pakistan.

``Who is Geelani? He cannot chart out the future of Kashmir. We are as much worried about the issue as he is,`` said Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the Shahi Imam of the Jama Masjid here.

``Kashmiris are our brothers. So, how can we remain silent on the subject?`` he said adding, ``Kashmir is ours and it will remain so.``

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jul/16inpak15.htm``

Muslims future linked with Kashmir: Farooq
Srinagar: The future of over 22 crore Indian Muslims is directly linked with Kashmir, and in case it ``secedes``, it could lead to a communal backlash; it is because of Kashmir that the credentials of Muslims of the country are being ``suspected``. This was the view held by the Chief Minister, Dr. Farooq Abdullah, when he spoke at the valedictory session of the two-day conference on ``Kashmir Today - Challenges and Prospects``, on Sunday. The conference was organised by the Kashmir Foundation for Peace and Developmental Studies (KFPDS). ``If you think there is going to be a dialogue (between India and Pakistan) or that the Kashmir problem is being solved, you are mistaken... This is not an issue of the people but an issue of land, and neither of the two is in a position to make any compromise.`` Expressing dismay over the increasing communal tendencies in the country, he said, ``The secession of Kashmir or carving a separate State of Jammu will lead to a communal backlash worse than that of 1947. The future of 22 crore Muslims in India is directly linked with Kashmir.`` Dismissing the possibility of a ``separate State``, he said if that happens Muslims in Doda, Poonch, Rajouri and Udhampur will not stay in Jammu, and that could result in another state, followed by bloodshed. For the development and posterity of Kashmir ``we all must accept the fact that we are Indians and they (PoK people) are Pakistanis``. Dr. Abdullah said the anti-Kashmiri Muslim feeling had been nursed by persons like Indira Gandhi and the entire Muslim community in India is today facing the repercussions. Reiterating his earlier stand, he said the only solution is to accept the ``Line of Control as the permanent border`` so that ``we maintain our relations of trade and interact with each other; but I do not know whether that would be possible in my lifetime. I am not an Indian stooge.`` Pakistan was a party to the dispute but ``so many things have changed in the last five decades, there is no need to talk to them``. ``India will not let Kashmir free even if it costs the destruction of whole of India... Any compromise will led to the killing of Gen. Musharraf or the fall of Mr. Vajpayee,``
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2000/kashmir20001002a.html

Indian secularism linked to Kashmir
Secularism in India is connected to Kashmir and if it goes to
Pakistan, the end of secularism in this country would be
imminent, said Dr Rafiq Zakaria, while delivering a lecture on
``Challenge before the Indian Muslims in the next millennium``.


The lecture was part of a series organised by Foundation for
Universal Responsibility of His Holiness the Dalai Lama on the
``Creeds for the Next Millennium``. Dr Zakaria said even a
Pakistani newspaper has mentioned that they required only Kashmir
and did not care for Indian Muslims. He quoted the newspaper
stating that Indian Muslims should learn to stand on their own
feet.


He was of the view that Indian Muslims will shed their last drop
of blood to see that Kashmir does not go to Pakistan.


``The need of hour is faith of majority Hindus for their Muslim
brothers,`` he stated.


He blamed Jinnah for the Partition of India. ``I frame him the
`villain` of Indian freedom struggle,`` he said and claimed that
future generations of Muslims will curse him for this.


Dr Zakaria contended that Pakistani Muslims hate their country
more than Hindus. ``They feel cheated by creation of Pakistan,`` he
stated. In his view, Britishers sowed the seeds of hatred among
Hindus and Muslims, in their bid to rule me country. He cautioned
Indian Muslims not to fall prey to the community leaders who have
been a force in last 50 years in isolating from the majority. He
blamed these leaders for keeping the Muslims away from the Hindus
to meet their political ends. ``Indian Muslims should learn from
the Pakistan`s example where various factions are fighting with
each other,`` he maintained.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jun/24pak.htm

Pakistanis want peace: Indian MPs

K J M Varma in Islamabad | June 24, 2003 17:43 IST


Members of the visiting Indian parliamentary delegation on Tuesday said they were surprised to notice the change in the public mood in Pakistan.

``I have visited Pakistan in the past. This time I noticed a fundamental change not only in the common man, but even in the ruling elite in Pakistan... that there can be no solution to the conflict between India and Pakistan except through negotiations,`` MP Shahid Siddiqui told Indian journalists in Karachi.

Siddiqui also pointed out to the change of attitude among the average Pakistanis towards jihad. ``In the past I used to hear a lot about jihad. This time I have not heard this in a single meeting anywhere. Even in private conversations nobody mentions this word.``

Led by noted journalist and MP Kuldip Nayyar, the delegation reached Karachi on Monday on the last leg of its tour.

Siddique said he also noticed a perceptible change in the mindset of the Pakistanis towards Indian Muslims. ``In the past, whenever I mentioned Indian Muslims I was not allowed to speak. This time not only people are listening to me, but they are appreciating my point that Indian Muslims are crucial part of the Indian secular fabric. And the Indian secular fabric is inextricably linked to the solution of the Kashmir issue.``

Rashed Shaeen, the National Conference MP from Baramulla in Jammu and Kashmir, said he wanted to send out a message to Pakistanis that they should help reduce violence in Kashmir.

He said, ``Freedom of expression is stifled in Kashmir due to the presence of guns. If somebody speaks they are killed.

``I humbly requested them in my speeches that we are on a mission of confidence building. You are lovers of Kashmir. Can you stop the violence? Let the people of Kashmir talk.``

Congress MP Pawan Bansal also expressed surprise at the amount of love and affection showered by the people wherever the delegation went.

While some Pakistanis had reservations about India, many wanted peace and friendship, he said. Pakistanis were opposed to mediation in the Kashmir issue, he added. ``People believe war is not the solution. They believe that both the countries should sort out issues between themselves. Outsiders bring their own baggage. We should address our problems ourselves. Trade should be developed.``

MP Lakshman Seth said, ``I do not know what the government here thinks, but the people of Pakistan want friendly relations with India.``

Doubting whether there could be a durable solution to the Kashmir issue without restoration of democracy in Pakistan, he said, ``The peace process in the past was disrupted by the military in Pakistan.``

To : #100 by rsridhar on November

Sridhar bhai you wrongly understand my post.Just refer my post 48
not a single my muslim brother had answer for that post

Hi Farzana . . . I think S&G had this whole Indo-Pak thing in mind when they added . . . ````Now the years are rolling by me, they are rockin` even me, I am older than I once was, and younger than I`ll be, that`s not unusual, No it isn`t strange, after changes upon changes, we are more or less the same . . . After changes we are more or less the same.........```` (The Boxer)

No?

cheers/Veeresh

Farzana ji

Ghalib had you in mind when he wrote

`Hue tum dost jinke, dushman unka aasman kyun ho?`

Aadab

Frazana,

“But we do not accept the country as an ideological entity; it is like getting rid of a gangrenous limb”

That was the most stupid remark from any interactor on this board.
What do you expect? Accept their ideology, have 10 more partitions, loose 10 million more lives.

Even the ``gangrenous limb`` does not accept its severed part in 71 as an ideological entity. So try telling them, that their ideology was trashed in a dustbin in 71. Its time to accept India as an ideological entity. No one has to guess their reaction.

Adios

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I have never understood this fallacious argument that India has not `accepted` Pakistan. We have accorded Pakistan official recognition, don`t argue that Pakistan should not be represented in the UN as an independent nation, and Indian Prime Ministers have gone and paid respect at Jinnah`s grave. So what does not `accepting` Pakistan mean?

Does accepting Pakistan mean accepting TNT? Do Pakistanis accept TNT? If accepting TNT is a pre-requisite to accepting Pakistan then do Pakistanis accept Pakistan?

re:#83 by saminshah
You have a country called Pakistan that you can go to if you do not like living in India. That is why Pak was carved out of India in the first place. Nobody will allow another partition of the country, not even a self-determination of Gujarati muslims. You need to learn how to fight within the system, joining your forces with the secular elements. What is wrong with muslims like you? When things start going bad, you start talking about self-determination. Are the Hindus wrong in accusing you of ``not being part of the fabric of India``?
Sridhar

#99 and #98..
Folks, please understand where FV is coming from. She is posing a relatively narrow apposing view to a broad consensus formed in a fairly open society. This is logically very hard to achieve. I am surprized how come Romair has not admonished her for attempting to ``Market`` herself by writing about such views, as he did about some other writers such as Rushdie, Talisma etc.

``But we do not accept the country as an ideological entity; it is like getting rid of a gangrenous limb”

I find this a very strange statement. We must accept the validity of TNT? Are you talking from an Indian or a Pakistani perspective?

Farzana # 92

---

“[Any plebiscite would inevitably turn into for-or-against-islam, which would undoubtedly strengthen the born-again TNTites in India.]

Unfortunately, you are right. But it would be a risk worth taking…”

Could you explain why this risk is worth taking. …

---

“This ought to have been years ago, it is too late now. And to give another example, the NorthEeast was open to investments from outside, and a large part of the resentment and fight for identity arose due to the feeling of being ‘submerged’.”

I don’t think so, after years Kashmiri’s are investing in new businesses now. My family is in the carpet business, we buy carpets from Kashmiri traveling artisans. We used to see a few of them make the trip with a 100 carpets or so. Now we have hundreds of them coming with truckloads of carpets and hand made jackets and clothing that is very popular in the west. If I believe what these people tell us tourism should pick up in a year and can take off if we let say Taj, Oberoi, Hilton, Sheriton and other companies open resorts there.

---

“But we do not accept the country as an ideological entity; it is like getting rid of a gangrenous limb”

What exactly is accepting that country as an ideological entity ? That people of different faiths can’t live together? What exactly do you find acceptable about it ?

Regards,

Faruk

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Dear Farzana:
``Unfortunately, you are right. But it would be a risk worth taking… ``
I would like to think that you made the statement without fully contemplating its consequences.
I think Nehru made a big mistake wrt Kashmir in two opposite ways. First, he changed the terms of the instrument of accession to deprive Kashmir of the special status that the Maharaja had obtained for Kashmir and thus alienating a large segment of pro-Indian Kashmiris. And secondly, by doing so in a half-hearted manner by introducing section 370 which prevented the full integration of Kashmiris with India.
If one takes out the element of religious loyalty and looks at the experience of POK versus IHK, it is instructive to ask:
-which side has better protected kashmiri language and culture?
-which side has better protected its minorities (there were more than a 100,000 non-muslims in POK, there are probably zero now)?
-which side has better educational and other infrastructure?
-which side has better economy and access to a bigger market?
Despite the obvious answers to the above questions, I would agree that unless Indians can win over the hearts and minds of kashmiris -and they can do so only by making India a welcome place for all muslims- they have to satisfy their aspirations, but that should be done without a plebisicite whose results could be disastrous for India.

What would plebisite mean for all the Indian muslims of one state called kashmir?
It would be like resurrecting the frankestein of 1947 again and forcing the Indian muslims to face the communal question again:
Do you believe that you can or cannot live with other non-muslims in the republic of India?
Do you believe that the you are so special and different from the rest of the Indian muslims that only you would be asked this communal question again in 2003? Farzana is out of touch with the reality and should again re-think on this issue- Do you think that the Pakistani muslims are the best allies of Indian muslims?
I think Manto`s perception of the gravity of the issue is much more deep- Farzana is just flippant (infact! not worth even an iota of all the attention she gets) as she is willing to let the born again TNTs lead the Indian republic to a civil war with the jehadi and TNT-s supported by Pakistanis forcing their way to leadership by dangling the carrot of a larger piece of Indian land before the rest of the Indian muslims and destroying them in the process!! So who cares about Farzana- not me!!!
[Any plebiscite would inevitably turn into for-or-against-islam, which would undoubtedly strengthen the born-again TNTites in India.]

I thought I had written an article about peace between people, and hostility between two countries; seems like some interactors here want to see it the other way around.

The same old tired reasons being dished out for majoritarian fundamentalism.

As regards my duties under the Indian Constitution, no one here has any right to question me on this. If it were not so devious, I might have ignored it. But…

[I dont know if you have realised Aunty-ji , but since you claim to be an Indian Citizen , it is my duty to inform you that you have consistently violated your Fundamental Duty #3 and also #1 ,#5 and certainly #8 & #10 , and are most likely to violate #4.]

[I.To abide by the Constitution and respect the national flag and the national anthem;]

When have I shown disrespect to either? Are you around to see me?

[III.To protect the Sovereignty, unity and integrity of India;]

In what way have I damaged any of these? Which militant movement have I been the cause or a part of?

[V.To promote the spirit of common brotherhood amongst all the people of India;]

I do so, among the people I consider as being disadvantaged. By the way, have you sent this to the people you vote for, elect? The Thackerays and Modis?

[VIII.To develop the scientific temper and spirit of inquiry;]

That we are here discussing something reveals this is precisely what I am doing.

[X.To strive towards excellence in all spheres of individual and collective activity.]

I do…sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don’t.

[IV.To defend the country;]

I would, not only against outside forces, but the enemies within too.

Now you tell me what have you done for my country? By seeking to kick a section of the population out, how are you promoting brotherhood, integrity? Or is this your idea of promoting excellence by getting rid of us? Is this some scientific calculation based on the theory of gravitation or relativity? And you insult the national flag and anthem for what they symbolise. And you think you will defend my country? You will sell it to the dogs; you already have. And you are the cheerleader for them.

PS: Do not address me in any way other than my name or number. Rishta jodney ki koshish mat karo…aap iske kaabil nahin hai…

* * *

[The thalee is yours but the menu is decided by what the majority of the people want...tantrum throwing blue blooded liberals with their 80Rs/cup sea lounge coffee don`t get to decide the menu based on just what THEY want...
The majority of Indians, hindu/muslim/sikhs, WON`T stand for giving up an inch of Kashmir...]

Don’t you get tired droning on about my coffee? Since you bring it up in every interaction, may I add that through this small effort too I end up paying my government a good deal of tax, and happily so. I have asked this earlier: do you believe that the person in the street necessarily has greater social consciousness than I do only because circumstances have placed us at different economic/social positions? And please decide whether one is a liberal or a fanatic. Since we are still technically a democratic republic, I will decide on the menu too.

I have never talked about giving away Kashmir to Pakistan…

* * *
[I can understand and acknowledge with pride Hasan and Faruk being a part of India but the claim about you wanting to be a part of India is just plain blather. What part do you want to be: a latter-day Jinnah?]

I do not need to be legitimised by the likes of you. You prove just how sick you are with the following comments…

[We know what Kashmiri`s want: a strong kick in the butt.
What they need is a totally different matter: the jackboot of the military that would drag off and shoot a hundred persons (mostly under age 30) for the death of every Hindu. In a couple of decades that would dramatically alter the population there as well as pacify them.]

[So, you claim your support for self-determination for Kashmir isn`t because it is a Muslim-majority state. Have you written anything on self-determination for Tibetans or the Uighurs of Xinjiang? I know your answer: that doesn`t concern you because they aren`t in India. Then how about self-determination for Nagas, Bodos, Mizos, etc?]

So, when you support kicking the butt of a section of people, are there others in your list too? Who are non-Muslims? I have written about the North East and Tibet…but that is not the issue here…

As most interactors are obsessed with Pakistan and my Pakistani ‘constituency’ at Chowk, I can say with conviction that not one Pakistani thinks of me as anything but an Indian. And they also believe that I represent my country better than most Hindus here. I certainly am a proud representative of India…many of you are an insult to my country.

#69 by dost-mittarji:
I understand most of your points. But I do believe that Musharraf made more headway than Pakistan’s democrats. I do not think he made Vajpayee look bad, it is our PM’s party members who do that on a regular basis. He is indeed the ‘mukhota’ (mask). And I do not believe any leader with statesman-like qualities should merely expedite a diplomatic process so as to go down in history.

[Any plebiscite would inevitably turn into for-or-against-islam, which would undoubtedly strengthen the born-again TNTites in India.]

Unfortunately, you are right. But it would be a risk worth taking…

[And finally, I think that the peace process in India has suffered a setback from an unlikely source, the misfortunes of the US in Iraq and Afghanistan. If the Bush shock-and-awe had succeeded, we would have seen the Americans exerting some real pressures on the leadership of the two countries to ``facilitate`` a meaningful dialogue.]

I’d say it has resulted in different, more-entrenched equations. But while the US may want the two countries to be at some sort of peace due to their nuclear power status, strategically it would not help the Americans. Besides, wherever the US has meddled, they have messed up things, often resulting in war-like situations.

#71/72 by Faruk:
[I don’t think Kashmiri’s will be better off with more autonomy. In fact in my opinion we should remove Article 370 and let every one invest in Kashmir and that will have a positive effect on the local economy and lives of the people.]

This ought to have been years ago, it is too late now. And to give another example, the NorthEeast was open to investments from outside, and a large part of the resentment and fight for identity arose due to the feeling of being ‘submerged’.

[If you think Indians don’t accept the creation of Pakistan just ask any Indians if they want them back. You will get only one answer “Hell No!” That convinces me that we have accepted the creation of Pakistan.]

True! But we do not accept the country as an ideological entity; it is like getting rid of a gangrenous limb.

#81 by soysauce:
I like you:)

#88 by AnOrdinaryHindu:
I think we just get caught up in several arguments. I think I agree with what you say... whatever it is you say...

#86 by khotasikka on November 17, 2003 3:15pm PT
[## FV: [Lekin maine aisa toh nahi kaha tha...]
Yeh mera doosra problem hai. Nobody knows what the gist of your article really was. I bet everyone read it once and went ``Haan toh? Kya bolreli yeh finally ?``. ]

Pehle bolna tha na...lekin aisa hota tau itna maatha-phodee log nahin karta...idhar tau sab soch-samajh kar supari dene ko baithela hai...yeh article ka gist-vist itnaeech tha ke log kaam par lag jaao, desh ko dushman rehne do...baat khalaas...ab kuchh samajh mein aaya? Nahin tau jaane do...sab apna khud ka soch par hai.

To removal of dowry custom government of India is taken strongest possible action and passed lows. one of them is any woman go to police station and file FIR against husband that her husband bit her for dowry then police immediate arrest whole family of
Husband including mother,father,sister,brothers without any investigation and they denied bail. These lows are so harsh these are
misused by lot of women. I even think these lows must be amend so man’s
constitutionals rights are not violated.
But there is some thing interesting going on across the border.where these society is heading


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-11-2003_pg3_1


EDITORIAL: National Assembly’s ‘honour’

When General Pervez Musharraf took over in October 1999, the majority of Pakistanis, including a large part of the intelligentsia, accepted the take over for two primary reasons: the ousted premier Nawaz Sharif had shown himself incapable of governing the country while General Musharraf was presenting to them the promise of a modern, truly democratic state. It was this combination of the negative and the positive on which General Musharraf’s locus standi has rested. Four years down the line, however, the menu remains much the same.

Here’s a specific case. On November 10, Mr M P Bhandara, a ruling-party member of the national assembly, moved a resolution in the House against ‘Karo-Kari’ (honour killing). The resolution was the 12th item on the agenda of House business that day and the member had personally ensured that his resolution would be placed before the House for discussion. The House business began to proceed until it was time to call for a discussion on the 12th item. At this point, the Speaker of the House, Ch Amir Hussain, decided to ignore Mr Bhandara’s resolution and take up a call-attention notice. Mr Bhandara initially thought the Speaker had inadvertently missed the item and tried to catch the Speaker’s attention. But he was ignored and his protests went unheeded.

After the session was adjourned, Mr Bhandara approached the Speaker and asked him why his item was not taken up. The Speaker apologised and assured him that the resolution would be taken up on the Private Member’s Day. Thus assured, Mr Bhandara also met with women legislators to lobby for the resolution. Apparently, most women MNAs assured him of their support. But again on the Private Member’s Day, the Speaker deliberately ignored Mr Bhandara, forcing him to announce a boycott of the proceedings. Upon this he was given the microphone and Mr Bhandara made a passionate case against the hideous practice of honour killings. He even reminded the members of the House that it was against the spirit of Islam. Regrettably, however, only one woman-legislator rose in support of Mr Bhandara; the rest kept their silence. But this is not all.

After the session, the Speaker called Mr Bhandara to his chambers. Seated there were also other members of the ruling party. Without making any bones, they told Mr Bhandara to withdraw his resolution and not take up this issue again on the floor of the House. Some of them told Mr Bhandara that they were ‘Pathans-first’ and would not allow anyone or any law to interfere with their centuries-old customs and traditions. That’s where matters stand apparently. This is a sad reflection of the conduct of members of the ruling party put together and brought into power quite meticulously by General Musharraf.

It may be recalled that in 1997, the PPP’s Senator Iqbal Haider had tried to move a similar resolution in the upper house of Parliament, but to no avail. But that was the time Mr Sharif was ruling the roost and generally taking recourse to retrogressive legislation. That is why we would have thought, given General Musharraf’s liberal, modern credentials, that he would get his party (and let’s be candid about the fact that the PML-QA is his party) to support legislation and actions that manifestly try to change retrogressive tendencies in Pakistan.

Clearly, giving representation to women is just one step towards empowering them. As things stand, the state has to unambiguously throw its weight behind women and other disadvantaged groups to ensure protection for them. Laws per se cannot change societal tendencies overnight but they have a deterrence value that cannot be ignored or dismissed lightly. It is in this spirit that the House must take up issues such as this one and make progressive legislation. *

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#82 by Shiekh_Chilli on November 17, 2003 12:22pm PT

You speak for the muslims of India??
Where are you from, you SOB!
Your ba$tard ancestors ahve already screwed up your life, and now you want to do the same with the lives of Indian muslims.
That is why I have always maitained that Paki muslims are the worst enemies of Indian (and Paki) muslims only- because they share the TNT with the Hindu fanatics.

Farzana Versey

I am sorry I didn`t understand anything you wrote. What exactly were you saying? :(

I surmised that you thought India shouldn`t have expected Musharraf to acknowledge terrorist infiltration into India no matter what Vajpayee was willing to give him.

That`s what I said too.

As a Gujarati I demand right of self determination of guaranties.. we are 5 cror in numbers. I demand immediate plebiscite for guaranties. After that Indian government will come to know if we want to live with India or in our new dreamland free Gujarat. I think that is very good argument that “let guaranties decide”. or first we have to start with some bomb blast and killing police and other people then when Indian government get some lesion then we have to demand. I dont care about other`s views i just demand and start blackmail with gr8 tool of terrorism.after all i m confident i will get atleast 1000 or 2000 opressed gujaraties to terrorise 5 cror or done their lives hell.

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$$FV: Oh, do you know that the Telgi fake stamp paper scam in which our top police officials and politicians have been indicted is a clear case of corruption and misuse of power, but I heard in the news that they are suspecting that the ISI could be behind this! When you do not get evidence and want to save your izzat, blame the enemy. $$

The implication you are making is that since the government has lied to us some of the time and since there is rampant corruption, we should totally exclude the possibility that Pakistan sponsors terrorism actively ? That Dawoodbhai is relaxing in a mansion in central Karachi or that Masood Azhar is addressing groups of Pak army jawans? Kamaal hai yaar teray logic ka.

Wake up. The Mumbai bomb blasts were not by Telgi. They were with RDX supplied by our beloved friends from across the border. That the ISI is the favourite whipping boy of our politicos does not take away anything from that fact.

## FV: [Lekin maine aisa toh nahi kaha tha...]

Yeh mera doosra problem hai. Nobody knows what the gist of your article really was. I bet everyone read it once and went ``Haan toh? Kya bolreli yeh finally ?``.

#82 by Shiekh_Chilli
``It is clear that hindus will never be able to live in peace
with Muslims of India.....``
It is clear that no medication is going to put your brain to normal function. How about a lobotomy?
Are you really Sheikh Chilli? I thought it was just an assumed name.
Sridhar

It is clear that hindus will never be able to live in peace
with Muslims of India. Therefore, India should be further
divided in half. The Muslims of India should be given one
half and the hindus should be locked into the other.

These hindus can then don their saffron saris and their
kids go around goose-steppin in circles, shouting hindutva
slogans. On the weekends they can burn christian families
for kicks.

If Quaid-e-Azam had had time, he would`ve been able to
save all the Muslims of india, back then. Muslims had been
ruling india before the British. We deserved to get atleast
half of it.

A light-hearted article on a serious subject. I like the tone & tenor of this..

Romair #58 you write `` Pakistani general awam is probably better looking, but Indian entertainers, models, actresses/actors are quite a bit better looking than their Pakistani counterparts...``

It is always such a pleasure to read your meaningful and thought provoking posts. Dont tell me...let me guess...you have a PhD in Inaneology from Harvard University, right?

As a member of the pakistani awam, i was so inspired by your post that i went before the mirror and admired myself for 30 minutes. then my wife came and told me to get a life.

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Ref FarzanaVersey #67

[The question is not about what the Pakistanis would settle for, but what we think the Kashmir’s want.]

We know what Kashmiri`s want: a strong kick in the butt.

What they need is a totally different matter: the jackboot of the military that would drag off and shoot a hundred persons (mostly under age 30) for the death of every Hindu. In a couple of decades that would dramatically alter the population there as well as pacify them.

Ranjit Singh knew exactly how to keep the Pathans at bay in Peshawar. He had poles stuck outside the fort there with the decapitated heads of Pathans. THAT pacified and kept Peshawar safe.

So, you claim your support for self-determination for Kashmir isn`t because it is a Muslim-majority state. Have you written anything on self-determination for Tibetans or the Uighurs of Xinjiang? I know your answer: that doesn`t concern you because they aren`t in India. Then how about self-determination for Nagas, Bodos, Mizos, etc? Got an article about that in Mid-Day perhaps?

#68 by FarzanaVersey

[As for Hindus of India not being able to restrain themselves from kicking the Muslims out, first India will have to change its Constitution and declare that it is a Hindu country. Then it will have to face a backlash from the Muslim citizens who are a part of this nation and want to be a part of it always.]

I can understand and acknowledge with pride Hasan and Faruk being a part of India but the claim about you wanting to be a part of India is just plain blather. What part do you want to be: a latter-day Jinnah?

FARZANA

YOU IF BELIEVE IN `Self-determination of Kashmir` YOU BELIEVE IN TWO NATION THEORY AND HENCE YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE IN INDIA

ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT

JIS THALI MAIN KHATI HAI USSI THALI MAIN CHED KARTI HAI

AUR SAATH NAIN SAARE INDIAN MUSALMAANO KO BADNAM KARTI HAI

#68 by FarzanaVersey on November 17, 2003 0:57am

``Amnesia is a great weapon. Who wants to remember 1984? That was Indian Sikhs.``

Can you be more explicit Farzana, when you talk about all the other minorities does that include Nagas, Mizos, Sikhs, Christians, Konkanis, Laddakhi, Buddhist, Gonds, Santhals and rest of the others.

Romair # 58
Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I have traveled to your country, visited Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad and Hyderabad and I did not see any of these beautiful people. This is another lie you guys are fed like one Pakistani Soldier is equal to ten Indian soldiers.

Faruk