Can Science Survive?

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#74 by M.B.Z.Isphahani on December 27, 2003 5:26pm PT
with guys like him , the Ummah does not need technology-
........one can hear the common refrain of the mullah- western technology is satanic and the latest products of this technology namely internet and the TV are the results of latest conspiracy against the Ummah. ...
Hehee...

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Great quotes,

I like the one from rumsfld, there are known unknowns, there are unknown knowns and there are unknown unknowns. The last variet is the ineffable, the unknowable, the brahman. The first one can be corrected, the second one is ignorence.

Tahmed,

Either you choose to use your brain...or return it for a full refund ;)

If you have no abiding interest in determining for yourself the truth or falsehood of something...why poke fun at others` efforts (whether it be some maulvi or hamidm or sammerjb). Those guys ARE at least using their brain for what its worth.

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OrdinaryHindu sahab,

I`ll disagree with you somwhat. Yes, the amount of anceint indian literature is stageerring...in depth and width. But volume by itself will not carry weight if the theories are mostly fluff.

All these theories (re-incarnation, soul, caste, etc)...arose from human self importance...and the limited scientific knowledge of the ancients. But modern knowledge is pushing us humans into insignificance...showing us our actual position in the vast universe.

Those ancient Indians had creativity...they may not have been always right...but they were creative...not looking at their past for solutions.

We, modern Indians, have lost that creativity...mainly due to that great weight of our past. We`re continually applying (looking for) old solutions to new problems...which is the essence of un-creativity, mediocrity.

This current time is like no other time in the past. Ancient theories/solutons will not apply to modern times. We need to throw out all the old, no preconceived notions, put our faces firmly forward...no looking back...and solve our problems from scratch...be truly creative...thats my humble opinion.

re: shobuz # 44

Your point is valid. Many people left Hinduism willingly. We can`t blame them. Hinduism went through its own long period of darkness. We are not out of the woods yet but are making progress.

Best wishes to you in whatever system you choose to follow.

#61 by nasah on December 6, 2003 3:07pm PT

Great post.

Nasah saheb! The western philosophers have gone through these issues in great details- we are yet to find these issues and arguments discussed in Islamic theology- probably because the two concepts of God and Allah are different according to the Islamists.

``The ancient hindus...those clever, cunning, logical, argument-kings...solved this problem thousands of years ago...Reincarnation.

The greatest thing in the universe, they said, is dharma...righteousness...the laws of which even the gods are subject to. So if you do an un-dharma thing...you`ll pay...if not in this birth...then the next one.

So the 9-year old iraqi kid who lost his limbs was paying his debt to the cosmic dharma account. Neat, eh?!``
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Ironman ji

You point to one of the most outstanding achievements and, at the same time, spectacular failures of the ancient Indians. Very much like Einstein much later, who dropped the ball with quantum physics.

Indians figured out the law of cause-and-effect, of action-and-reaction. When confronted with the most difficult problems of explanation, they took their approach to its logical conclusion. In doing so, they missed the more compelling, alternative solution - the role of chance. After all, the science of chance was not well understood until very recently. Even Einstein couldn`t convince himself of the power of the dice.

But Hinduism is about constantly learning. So we can stand on the shoulders of our ancient giants and fix that error.

The truth of God cannot be known. The only way to `know` it is to be on a constant journey toward it. Hinduism asks us to make that journey.

Best wishes.

ironman #67 so you think i AM God`s kindergarten teacher as well as His child psychologist and that I SHOULD know why he lets bad things happen? i dont recall having ever applied for this job..

as for the hindu priests (and muslim maulvis too) who claim to know be privy to God`s mind - they also sell the Brooklyn Bridge i understand.

#65 by tahmed32:

``...point you raise (i.e. if God is kind, why is there cruelty in this world) has of course troubled people through the ages and been the subject of much debate. i dont have an answer to it (short form or long form). nor does the fact that i dont have an answer bother me. since (with all due respect to God), i am not God`s kindergarten teacher, and as such it is not my job to understand why He is mean sometimes...``

Arre Tahmed...you ARE one confused man.

If its not your job to understand...then whose job is it?!! The maulvi/pundit ?

You denounced the preacher/priest in a series of posts...yet...you can`t do without them...you don`t have enough bollocks to admit simple truths that you see proved everyday...each and every day...that god, if there is one, is a sadist.

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The ancient hindus...those clever, cunning, logical, argument-kings...solved this problem thousands of years ago...Reincarnation.

The greatest thing in the universe, they said, is dharma...righteousness...the laws of which even the gods are subject to. So if you do an un-dharma thing...you`ll pay...if not in this birth...then the next one.

So the 9-year old iraqi kid who lost his limbs was paying his debt to the cosmic dharma account. Neat, eh?!

ironman #63 the point you raise (i.e. if God is kind, why is there cruelty in this world) has of course troubled people through the ages and been the subject of much debate. i dont have an answer to it (short form or long form). nor does the fact that i dont have an answer bother me. since (with all due respect to God), i am not God`s kindergarten teacher, and as such it is not my job to understand why He is mean sometimes (just kidding here).

what i AM interested in is: what are the VALUES that religion teaches us. and this is the context in which i raised this point in my post #56 below, viz. ``in the Quran the idea is to live up to certain values that are attributed to God (mercy, kindness, and so on) and which are ignored by both the maulvi and the anti-maulvi crowd in pakistan. ``

in other words, my interest in God is only to the extent in which belief in God leads men to be kind and merciful or cruel and vindictive.

Hope THIS makes sense.

nasah #64 it indeed is a great quote, i agree. (interestingly, i found this Taoist quote in a commentary on the Mahabharata where it was used to explain a common theme in all religions).

That was a great Quote t ahmed!

``God that is known is not the true God``

tahmed,

Reg. your #56:

``the concept of God for most jamaatiyas (maulvis, their followers) is basically that of a vainglorious King who says ``if you dont bow to me five times a day, you are going to hell buddy!``, or ``so you dont think i exist, do you? well maybe i`ll strike you with lightening then! maybe that will convince you!!`` and so on.

``...in the Quran the idea is to live up to certain values that are attributed to God (mercy, kindness, and so on) and which are ignored by both the maulvi and the anti-maulvi crowd in pakistan.``

``hope this makes sense.``

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Nope. Doesn`t make sense to me.

You laugh at the idea of a vainglorious god, yet think it ok for a `real` god to be `merciful` and `kind`. Remember we are talking of the creator.

Mercy and kindness are needed where there is pain and suffereing. Explain if you can, why a merciful and kind creator is not vainglorious. Stick to the point please...dont launch into your longwinded diversions.

(And never mind that this god of yours in neither merciful nor kind - 9 kids killed in afghanistan)

fountainheader #58 you are too kind with your praise. i will add that it is always a pleasure to interact with someone on chowk who does not come with a need to prove something. but, as in your case, is more interested in having a constructive discussion that leads to a richer and better understanding of things on the part of all those who engage in the discussion.

``“The Quran fittingly says, in effect, that if mankind does not get its act together it will be replaced by another species.”

Quran is right -- the mankind is being replaced by another species -- it`is called neocons......