Operation Searchlight

#91 Urstruly
80000/30000 ... on one cares in india.

my folks visited j&k in 1980, with Raja travels. they had nothing to say regarding religion.
all they said was folks are nice but poor.. no mention of politics.

do you really care?

Pakistan`s ruling elite had persistently propounded the myth of ``martial races`` to ensure its grip on power. Soon after independence, it coined the slogan, ``Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenge Hindustan.`` Pakistanis were encouraged to dream that it is only a matter of time that the Pakistani flag will be flying atop the Red Fort in Delhi. Pakistanis were encouraged to think of themselves as the new Mughals with the demise of the British Raj.

Generals like ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan never made any secret of their racist disdain for not only the ``Hindu`` soldiers of India but even of the ``non-martial`` East Pakistanis. In their perspective, ``martial races`` were the Prussians of the subcontinent. It was deemed to be the manifest destiny for the military officers from ``martial races`` to eventually rule over the entire subcontinent. Ordinary Pakistani soldiers were brainwashed into believing that one Pakistani soldier equalled ten ``Hindu`` soldiers.

The tradition continues. Ardeshir Cowasjee is a venerable figure in Pakistani journalism. Here is an excerpt from his article ``End Game?`` published in DAWN of 18th July, 1999:

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..... As for our war-mongers and zealots, the uneducated and ignorant majority, they should be informed by the government in power that India makes a formidable foe. Its armed forces are twice the size of ours, making it impossible for us to sustain a military conflict. Economically, if reserves are anything to go by, India is forty times our size. It is of no use us propagating the myth that one Pakistani soldier is equal in strength and courage to five Indian soldiers. Our retired generals, colonels, air marshals, wing-commanders, admirals and commodores do us a disservice when they air their views on the national media and relate how, whenever Muslims have gone to war, it has been against a foe far superior in number but their spirit of sacrifice and their valour have always made them victors. Wars now cannot be won without global sympathy and support. Propaganda must have credibility behind it. .....

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Pakistan`s ruling elite should cease to see itself as the Prussians of the subcontinent. There can be no military solution to differences between Pakistan and India. General Pervez Musharraf did a disservice to the subcontinent by plotting a military solution via Kargil even as his civilian boss Nawaz Sharif sought a peaceful solution in Lahore. It was as wrong as it was imprudent.

It is the height of irresponsibility to seek a military solution when you know that your opponent too has nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are deterrents, at best. They can never be used either by Pakistan or India to browbeat the other.

Urstruly:

Waisey, for all the gaalis I give you otherwise, let me also remind that you that I also recognized the validity of most of the points you had put up as your perspective on what India should do. Sometimes humanity does leak through from you.

Uurstruly:

The only courtesy I demand of you is the same that you give to your own army in East Pakistan. The question is not of numbers. While you do not defend the killing of innocents in East Pakistan, you are careful to provide contaxt. Why do you then refuse to accept that same context in Kashmir? Don`t be true to Hhindus. At least be true to yourself. It is not a question of numberrs but of perception, Black/White Versus Grey.

You say:

``The fact however, remains that everyday innocent Kashmiris are being killed as well as the Indian soldiers. `` Yes, and so are millitants being killed. Those who are from Karachi, as well as Pakistani Kashmir. And also, the innocent Kashmiris are also being killed through militant attacks. Read the headlines yourselves. Who is responsible if a bomb is thrown and 30 people killed in a bazaar? The intended target?

Arrey yaar, sitting in America if Ii can meet a Pakistani whose cousin was injured in Indian Kashmir, I am sure you know the truth better then I do.

I can see that our friend, Romair (aka jihad-lite) is back with his silly mis-attributions about the suffering kashmiris. His transparent mistatements, larded with references to Victoria Schofield and Peter Jennings, would be quite funny if they did not refer to such a serious matter.

I have read the book by Victoria Schofield. It basically describes the problem as a very difficult one and blames all the parties involved quite equally. THIS INCLUDES THE SO-CALLED LEADERSHIP OF THE KASHMIRI SUNNI MUSLIMS FROM THE VALLEY. It describes them as naive and living in a fantasy land with no real interest in finding a solution. It is also very clear about explaining who is responsible for the killings of civilians in the recent past.

Here are some of the atrocities of Romair`s beloved freedom fighters. I have not included a single attack against the Indian military on this list.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E07EEDC1630F937A2575BC0A9659C8B63
Two civilians and a policeman were killed and 39 people, mostly civilians, were wounded when Islamic separatists detonated a bomb in a crowded market in Indian-controlled Kashmir. A little-known militant group, Al Mansoorin, took responsibility for the explosion, in the town of Bandipore, 20 north of Srinagar. The blast came as security was being tightened for India`s Independence Day celebrations on Friday. David Rohde (NYT)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE0DA143FF930A15754C0A9659C8B63
After a lull that had raised hopes for peace in the disputed region of Jammu and Kashmir, Islamic separatists struck twice in spectacular raids at an Indian army base and an annual Hindu pilgrimage, killing a total of 14 people

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D03E3DF173FF931A15754C0A9659C8B63
Seven pilgrims were killed and 38 were wounded in twin bomb blasts by suspected militants in state of Jammu and Kashmir, the police said. Pilgrims were on the way to a revered Hindu temple. Officials fear that the casualty figure may rise. P.J. Anthony (NYT)


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10E11FC39590C748EDDAD0894DB404482


FOREIGN DESK | April 27, 2003, Sunday
5 Dead and 10 Wounded in Attacks in Kashmir

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This is a freedom struggle? Excuse me while I throw up....

Stuka

I dont know what sort of courtesy you are demanding from me. Should I start saying that its not 80,000 (a number that is stuck at it for the past four years) Kashmiris that have been killed by Indians and instead start saying that its 35000 (a number that is also stuck at it for the past four years, inspite of almost daily carnage)? Would that make any difference? Unless India lets human rights orgs in Kashmir, the numbers mean nothing. The fact however, remains that everyday innocent Kashmiris are being killed as well as the Indian soldiers. This is reported by your own media. If your media is making this up then there cannot be any insurgency or foreign interference in Kashmir, logically; it is propaganda and horse-shit. But if your media is telling the truth then fact on the ground is that your government is killing its own people at the cost of its own soldiers. The bottomline is that the human beings are being killed - and they are being killed for the past 12 years. Someone has to stop this carnage and this madness. This carnage and this madness would not stop by being courteous but by forcefully demanding the truth and transparency - not by others but by you as well. You have responsibility towrds your fellow human beings and fellow countrymen - your atoot ang, that is.

PS. It is this transparency that I am asking for in the case of Bangladesh - the truth - by putting the claims of very people to scrutiny. The facts however, will remain guestimates at best unless an independent human right org goes into Bangladesh and looks into it.

87 & 89 are not by me.

#10 by durman.tk on November 21, 2003 0:52am PT

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Further More the TV operas on majority shows extra maritial affairs, illegitimate children, fighting over fathers estates......``bhabis`` fighting each other.....getting each others children killed......Now its not only Pakistan...but also the Indians who should avoid development of tolerance to such culture
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Maybe they should show kids joining madrassahs, learning the koran by rote, learning to hate non-muslims and going off to fight a jihad against the infidell...

Now that would be fiction tailored to Pakistani society.

Oh, and with my previous post, I do not meant to take anything away from Temporal`s article whcih was wriiten on a different plane altogether. Temporal`s perspective is humane, which is usually the last priority given in statecraft but the first priority given by ordinary people in their personal capacity.

#10 by durman.tk on November 21, 2003 0:52am PT

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Further More the TV operas on majority shows extra maritial affairs, illegitimate children, fighting over fathers estates......``bhabis`` fighting each other.....getting each others children killed......Now its not only Pakistan...but also the Indians who should avoid development of tolerance to such culture
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Maybe they should show kids joining madrassahs, learning the koran by rote, learning to hate non-muslims and going off to fight a jihad against the infidell...

Now that would be fiction tailored to Pakistani society.

#81 by AlephNull

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Am I to understood that Pakistan’s Kashmir policy is motivated by a desire for revenge for the alleged 1971 “defeat”, rather than a pure and unalloyed concern for the human rights and welfare of Kashmiris? Who would have guessed.
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Yes, indeed! Who would have guessed!!

Pakistan`s military has always been very very ``professional`` whenever it came to protecting its vested interests. Kashmir has been very useful to Pakistan`s military. In fact, it has been so useful that the military will simply have to invent another Kashmir if and when Pakistan annexes Kashmir.

``Kashmir Banega Pakistan`` is not a Kashmiri slogan. It is a slogan from the cantonments in Sialkot, Lahore and Rawalpindi. But, no, revenge is not the motive anymore than it was the motive when Papa Bhutto stood atop the gallows or when the Generals sent Junejo, Benazir and Nawaz Sharif packing time and again.

However, there is a real danger that the army can become victim of its own lies and myths and of its own propaganda. Altaf Gauhar (editor of DAWN and information secretary in the regime under ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan) wrote a very insightful article, ````Four Wars, one Assumption`` in the aftermath of the Kargil war. Writing of the four wars in 1948, 1975, 1971 and 1999, Altaf Gauhar wrote:

``..... all these operations were conceived and launched on the basis of one assumption: that the Indians are too cowardly and ill-organised to offer any effective military response which could pose a threat to Pakistan.``

That was a natural corollary to the philosophy that had the top brass in Pakistan clamoring, ``Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenge Hindustan`` on the very morrow of independence. It was a natural corollary to the philosophy that had led the top brass into brainwashing the ordinary soldiers in Pakistan into believing that one Pakistani soldier was more than ten ``Hindu`` soldier.

In the aftermath of Kargil and the American ultimatum after 9/11, General Pervez Musharraf may have belatedly realized the folly of nurturing the martial-races theory. He may have realized that worse fate awaits if Pakistan`s army cannot cure itself of its Prussian complex which it has brought upon itself by its own propaganda. Hence his admonition to those that dream of unfurling the Pakistani flag atop the Red Fort.

Unfortunately, the martial-races theory had been nurtured among Pakistani soldiers (rank and file) for so long, that General Pervez Musharraf cannot force a change overnight. But he must keep on trying because such foolhardiness can accidentally trigger a nuclear war where no tactical finesse will prevail to prevent a catastrophe for Pakistan and India alike.

#78 stuka

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Actually, Hindi is the national language of India. English is also given ``official status`` but is not the national language.
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The following website gives a pretty good insight into the concepts of national language and official language in India:

http://www.postcolonialweb.org/india/hohenthal/5.1.html

Currently 18 languages are listed in eighth schedule of India`s Constitution (Articles 344 (1) and 351). These are India`s national languages. A currency note in India carries the denomination in all national languages. And most of these national languges have official language status in one or more of the 29 states of the Indian Union.

Hindi is the official language (and English the associate official language) of the Union government and of the Parliament. But English is not a national language.

English will remain an Associate Official Language of the Union and of the Parliament till the Parliament and every state legislature in unison decide otherwise. Hence, the insistence of even a single small state like Nagaland or Mizoram is enough to preserve the Associate official language status of English.

Following
(a) are all facts.
(b) are not mutually exclusive.

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(1) Punjabi is a national language of India.

(2) Punjabi is the official language of Punjab.

(3) Punjabi is the second official language of the state of Delhi.

(4) Hindi is a national language of India.

(6) Hindi is the official language in states like Bihar, Jharkhand, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattishgarh, Uttarachal etc.

(7) Hindi is the official language of the Union Government in New Delhi.

(8) English is not a national language of India.

(9) English is the official language of Nagaland.

(10) English is the associate office language of the Union Government in New Delhi.

(11) Bengali is a national language of India.

(12) Bengali is the official language of West Bengal and Tripura.

(13) Nepali is a second official language in West Bengal.

(14) Bengali, itself, is a second official language in Assam.

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Romair:

``I agree with Fuzair that all of us – Indians, Pakistanis, (and even Bangladeshis) - have blood on our hands. Different groups at different times. In 71, it was primarily Pakistanis. Now it is primarily Indians. ``

I agree with Fuzair but draw a different conclusion. Pakistan today regrets Bangladesh because it lost, the enemy action boomernaged on it. Had it succeeded, it would have joined the ranks of Sindh and Baluchistan as Army successes. Tthe Pak Army`s fault was not in launching a crackdown but in using a hammer when it needed a needle.

You mention the bridge incident? Yes, a few dozen were killed. Bij Behara, 45 people were killed. Iin Punjab, North East or Kashmir, I cannot think of any incident that approaches the scale of Op Searchlight. Tthe closest is maybe Bluestar. Even that was smaller, but the result of it we had to see for 10+ years. If Bangladesh was contiguous to Pakistan, u guys still would have managed to control it. And regardless of casualties, I would not see any hand wringing by the establishment.

The only thing that differentiates the Bangladesh phenomenon is not language or east-west majority, it is the lack of geographic contiguity between two states which had religion as the ONLY common bond. Pakistan and Bangladesh as one country make lesser sense then Pakistan and Afghanistan or Pakistan and Oman as one country. If it had not been language, it would have been the price of fish, but sooner or later the two countries would have gone their different ways.

Romair:

The number killed includes Security Forces as well as innocent victims of militant groups. Please read the papers. Grenade thrown at picket kills 12 cilvillians. Car bomb explodes and kills 4 security forces and 10 civillians. All these are included.

The number killed by Counter Indsurgency operations forms a fraction of the numbers.

As far as troops are concerned, the lowest figure is quoted by the Indians at roughly 300, 000 troops. This number includes troops stationed in all of Kashmir, including Ladakh. Therefore, this number includes all tropps on regular defensive deployment in Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh areas. It includes all administrative and support personnel. And it is a number spread out over an area more then ten times the size of the valley. The number also includes Police and BSF. Why don`t you check how many Pakistani troops are deployed under normal circumstances in POK, Gilgit, NAs and look at the differential.

The ridiculousness of Pakistani estimates is exposed by the fact that our total strength (even as it is recognized by Pakistan) is 1.1 million troops approx. Since India has not deployed reserves, by Pakistani estimates, we have 80% of our troops in Kashmir (just the valley btw if you look at Pakistani propaganda) and the rest 30% scattered over China border, rest of Pakistan border and the 19 other insurgencies we are currently fighting along with admin staff, HQs etc.

Well, by that low level of defense, your Army should have just walked into Delhi by now.

Stuka #76: “Excellent point. I am sure you would extend the same courtesy to the Indian Army in Kashmir?”

I think in civilian repression, it should always be a question of less or more blame. Never a question of courtesy.

Following is a rough estimation:

The numbers of dead given for Kashmir, a few years ago (around Y2K time), at the lower end, was around 33,000 provided by the BBC. At the higher end, 70,000 provided by Pakistan and Kashmiri leaders. And 61,000 provided by a BJP minister on CNN (though he blamed them all on Pakistan terrorism).

The Kashmiri rebellion in its militant form of freedom struggle, started around 1989, after the Jehlum river killings carried out by the Indian security forces, in which protesting Kashmiris were killed on a bridge. The human rights organizations and international press were banned in early 90s (by George Fernandes). Please read Victoria Schofield’s book to get more details.

So in a period of ten years, the range of dead is between 35k to 70k killed. This difference is not a ten fold difference (300k to 3 million), but a two-fold difference. The population of Jammu and Indian Kashmir is around 7 million. The population of East Pakistan, in 71, was around 65 million(?). The main violence is in the Kashmir valley, which is obviously smaller than all of Indian Kashmir. I don’t know what the exact population of this area is, but lets say between 3 to 5 million.

The number of Indian troops (Army and Security forces) is 500,000+, as given by Peter Jennings of ABC. And 700,000, as given by Pakistan and Kashmiri estimates. So 500k to 700k. The area of the Valley is smaller than 150 km by 50 km. I am not sure how the troops are spread out throughout Kashmir, but I assume nearly all of them are in the Valley or surrounding areas, with smaller amounts in support areas in Ladakh and Jammu – which seem to be generally pro-India.

The general ratio of troops to civilians is taken to be 1 to 7, i.e. 3 to 5 million people and 500k to 700k troops. Thus Indian Kashmir has the highest troops per square feet of any area in the world. Many times higher than that of Pakistanis in East Pakistan. In fact, the economy of the Valley is probably dependent on the troops present there.

If we take the lowest estimates, i.e. 35k dead, out of 3.5 million people, by 500k troops in a ten year time period (89 – 99), we get the ratio of 1% of the population being killed every ten years.

In addition, after every n number of days, the Indian security forces kill a few militants. None of the militants are ever captured alive (for some reason). And after their death, every single one of them is declared to be a Pakistani. None are identified as Indian Kashmiris (primarily to indicate that the Kashmiri struggle is not indigenous). The actual truth is that they are probably a mixture of Pakistani and Kashmiri militants. I talked to a Pakistani guy who went into Kashmir twice, and he told me at any one time there are only a hundreds (not thousands) of active militant inside Kashmir. They are surviving because they have support of the local population. However, to tackle each militant requires hundreds of troops.

If you take all the numbers of militants killed, and reported by India, their combined figure per year, would be in the low hundreds. This number over ten years would not exceed a thousand to three thousand. The number of Indian soldiers killed is even much smaller. If you subtract this figure from the BBC figure of 35 k (or the BJP figure of 61 k, or Pakistani figure of 70k), it still leaves 30k to 60k deaths unaccounted for. These are the Kashmiri civilians killed by the Indian security forces, both deliberately and in the crossfire between militants and security forces.

So, using the complete range (35 to 70 k), roughly .8 to 1.8% of the Kashmiri population in the Valley is being killed every decade. That would be equivalent to 1.3 million Bengalis being killed every ten years today. Or 10 million Indians being killed every decade, in proportional terms.

I agree with Fuzair that all of us – Indians, Pakistanis, (and even Bangladeshis) - have blood on our hands. Different groups at different times. In 71, it was primarily Pakistanis. Now it is primarily Indians. Those of us who are willing to blame everyone, without national biases, are part of the solution for peace in South Asia. I can even see the point of view of the ones who oppose both self-determinations – Kashmir and Bangladesh - as a matter of principle. But those who support Kashmiri self-determination and do not support Bengali self-determination, or vice-versa, are the ones who are responsible for the violence and deaths. This last group should never get anyone’s respect.

On the whole, I think Pakistanis have now (grudgingly) accepted their faults. Perhaps due to time. Or perhaps due to introspection. Pakistanis, from all ranges of views, on this board, have criticized Pakistan for 71. However, had this been an equivalent article written by an Indian about Kashmir, I wonder what the reaction of our Indian colleagues would have been? Hopefully, an acceptance of faults.

One has to believe in self-determination, as a principle, for all South Asians (Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Baharis (?), Kashmiris etc.), or for none. And one has to first accept one`s own faults, before blaming others. One cannot have it both ways.

# 60 by ras

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We can exaggerate the numbers (3 Million) or diminish them (300,000) but the fact
remains that many people on ALL sides were outright murdered.
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Even one murder is one too many. So it is indeed puerile to quibble that 300,000 rather than 3 million were murdered.

And what is truly despicable is that a professional army (rank & file) behaved no better than a mob in order to protect its vested interests.

# 69 by ras

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My American source who served the people of Pakistan and Bangladesh for over 30 years & spent ALL of 1971 in Dhaka and the surrounding area put in his estimate at 100,000 to 150,00 peple killed by ALL sides (not 1.5 million). I asked him about the millions killed in these reports in the western press and he just smiled.
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That ras doesn`t consider the verbal report from the ``American source`` as the final word is brought out by ras himself in #60 when he gave his own bounds, ``We can exaggerate the numbers (3 Million) or diminish them (300,000)``.

In #55, I have given numbers from numerous published reports in USA and around the world. Among my references was one by Prof. R.J.Rummel from school of law in Unversity of Virginia. In my opinion, Prof. Rummel`s scholarly study published in 1997 is about as close as we will ever get to the actual number of people who died in the 1971 genocide.

Prof. Rummel`s bottom line is:

``I give a final estimate of Pakistan`s democide to be 300,000 to 3,000,000, or a prudent 1,500,000.``

As far as I am concerned, Prof. R.J.Rummel`s published research is more authentic than what ras`s ``American source`` might have verbally communicated to him with a knowing smile.