Operation Searchlight

hi tahmed

i think the person you intend to punish is Salman Khan, and not Shahrukh, who has rarely if ever bared his chest. the only occasion I remember is for a few minutes in Darr when he carves his girlfriend`s name (kkkkkkkkkiran) on his chest with a knife. Otherwise you can pretty much bet your shirt on Shahrukh to keep his shirt on. :)

Romair, may i ask, please: Would love to know, which G-course do you belong?
Asking because I myself have very close affiliations with PAF in general and G-courses in particular.

Regards

Eid Mubarak everyone.

Feroz: detailed reply to your post to follow; we have tons of friends and family coming and its getting to be quite a madhouse here!

Pakistan needs to start with a formal apology to Bangladesh for 1971 and arrange

for the repatriation of

the ``Biharis`` or Stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh.

What are the chances of this happening any time soon?

Ras

I wonder if there are any army guys from India on the chowk- this chowk is full of the Band Brigade of the Martial Law Ruler/s- Can they please provide a counter view about the megalomaniac army personnell form Pakistan who think they know more about civilian administration and polity than any one else???

Romair #221,

Interesting post. In the Army, to go beyond Brig., one has to do the War Course (or at least the National Defense Course). This, ostensibly, gives one an MA degree. Given that its a year long course, some of the people attending it must learn something!

BTW, the person who topped both the PAF and PA Engineering courses wouldn`t happen to be named Tariq Javed would he?

Fuzair/Feroze: There is a distinct difference between the calibre of individuals going into the three different forces of military in Pakistan. There is also a difference within the different branch within each force. As well as a difference between the various generations of individuals in the military.

During my cadet days, there was a huge movement to jointly train all the forces together. The aim was to introduce the officers to each other and to the various branches of the military at a young age. Navy pilots being trained with the PAF. PAF cadets being trained in Kakul. Army cadets in Karachi, etc.

The aim was to set up a common combined first stage college/academy for all branches, before they went to their own academies, like India has. It was a good idea. Even though, the final college never got established. However, the sending of cadets to each others` institutions continues.

Invariably, all the PAF cadets sent to JCB (Army) were at the top of their class. However, the Army cadets that ended up with the PAF, had a huge problem. After the first two semesters, a large number of them had flunked out, academically. They had been selected for one branch (Army) and ended up, through coincidence, being kicked out of the other branch`s institution.

However, those who made it, did all get to know each other, and are still close friends. The guy who got the sword of honor from my parallel courses in the Navy, Army, flying course in PAF were all initially trained at some stage by the PAF - with the later two being my roommates at one point. The guy who topped the Engineering course in the Army, was initially trained by PAF also (where he topped the PAF, as well).

There are three areas, that I know of in the military where the academic standards are very high. One is PAF Engineering. The other is Army Medical College. The third is the National University of Science and Tech. PAF Engineering has about the same standard of the US colleges, right below the Ivy League tier (I say this through personal experience). Its top graduates would do well in the Ivy League schools. Quite a few of them have MS and Ph.Ds from abroad. AMC (I am told) was (still is?) ranked behind Aga Khan, alongwith King Edwards, as the second best medical college in Pakistan. NUST is ranked the top university in Pakistan and the twentieth best in Asia. I think PAF Eng. and Army Medical are now part of NUST.

The thing with the Pakistan military is that those in command (combat) branches are not required (nor encouraged) to get any training/education beyond what is needed for fighting a war (Fighter conversion courses, Staff colleges, SSG courses etc.). While those who do get higher education (like Ph.Ds from abroad) are mainly from the non-combat branches. And thus never get to the top General positions. Unlike the USA, where its top Generals of the command branches all have at least a Masters and in many cases Ph.Ds.

Since the Pakistani civilians only interface to the military are the combat branch Generals, they never get to the, ``brains`` that do exist in the military (whom I have seen and worked with first hand).

Obviously, if someone is not willing to be in the front line of combat, he cannot be promoted to the top positions in the military. So the solution is to have the command branch individuals be sent for advanced civlian degrees, to supplement their Staff college degrees. However, having the combination of being, say, a really good fighter pilot, a really good commander and leader of men, a really good administrator, a really good academician, and fearless enough to risk one`s live, is extremely rare.

I have met very very few individuals who have all these qualities. The few who do have these qualities either die carrying out their duty, or leave the military for civilian jobs where they can make ten times their military salary (even inside Pakistan). I think the military seriously needs to raise its salary structure to ensure individuals like these get attracted to the military, and those who are in the military with these qualities, do not leave.

#218 by tahmed32,

``What Sharuk does deserve to be punished for is taking off his shirt in every movie and displaying his chirri sized chest as if he is some kind of a Rambo.``

Never mind chest west...its his cutesy way of talking that gets me every time...grrrrr!

:)

shobuz #217 you write ``My learning of Quran says NO compromise on ‘la ilaha illallah’ and acting of such practice makes any one a kafir, PERIOD. ``

Your learning of the Quran gets an F (for Fail). PERIOD.

Because if you knew the ABCs of the Quran, you would know that it says very clearly that issues of religion are not the concern of any man. If Sharuk chooses to bow before a statue in a movie, that is his business and (per the Quran) and it is not for you to judge whether he is a kafir or not.

What Sharuk does deserve to be punished for is taking off his shirt in every movie and displaying his chirri sized chest as if he is some kind of a Rambo.

shobuz #217 you also write ``Not all Muslims are corrupt Mullah’s, neither I practice judging other peoples via means, but my blood boils occasionally as a practicing MUSLIM``

You mean as a practicing JAHIL. Because if you were a muslim, your blood would boil at the corrupt Mullahs. Not at people who point them out.

Is acting as a ‘pagan’ for the sake of earning acceptable in Islam? Can ‘la-ilaha-illalah’ be on sidetrack due to acting with a ‘bowing scene in front a statue’?

While I am afraid of my own Akhira, I certainly do not have a minuscule capability to judge of what will happen to Sharuks in the day of Akhira. My learning of Quran says NO compromise on ‘la ilaha illallah’ and acting of such practice makes any one a kafir, PERIOD.

I certainly am not for violence and not found of at all of corrupt-Mullah’s, but I for sure not able to cool my blood when I see atrocities in any form. There does exist genuine atrocities towards Muslim of just being Muslim. Simply dig the facts of the very people who are crying wolf and branding Islam with a bad name.

Allah is well aware of our biology, chemical reaction to our body and our psyche. We are declared as imperfect in Quran and asked not to practice man made rule on basic justice of humanity on taking life and equality. These applies to all people, be a muslim or not muslim.

Billions of Billions people can spent all their life of thousand years to formulate the best system to get rid of ‘imperfect or bad things’ from this world. For the believers ‘bad death’, either as a victim or killer is ‘one bad’ thing, but not the end of ‘big picture’. Hence bad things have happened and will happen. Why is it that way? I do not know. But when it comes for justice: you kill one (or hundred) either by direct action or indirect action, or you inflict injustice, then it better be a action of pure accident and face the day of judgment. It all comes down to you and only your gut feelings of, were I motivated of killing him/her not of what he/she individually did grave wrong that needed a death penalty, but because………….. If later is the case, then no religious affiliation, race, skin color, nationality, groups, philosophy, Aristotle, Great Alexander, Washington, Ghandi, Muzib will be counted, and justice will be served promptly. In Islam there is no ‘collateral damage’, no ‘My general said so’, no ‘for the sake of my country’, no ‘my teaching and philosophy said so’, no ‘My Mullah or Pir Shahib said so’, no ‘Jamayeet a Islam said so’, no ‘Nabi said so (Prophets wouldn’t dare to attributes lies to God, as people does using hundreds of false hadits), no ‘every body said/did so’. Knowing, believing, practicing and prophesizing THIS is a grave responsibility that was ordained to every people via Allah via various mean and recently via Quran.

I enjoy Sharuks, Salman,…Dilip’s movies. 1000 Sharuks types people will prophez what??????? Or am I at mercy of life/death, justice issues on hindus or any people, so these actors would advocate them not to kill us. Say what……………………… A Bomb, Submarine, software, fluent english, hi, hello, Scientific achivemnt are the only way........

Not all Muslims are corrupt Mullah’s, neither I practice judging other peoples via means, but my blood boils occasionally as a practicing MUSLIM………..

ferozk #215 I think that for pakistani army officers, even more important than being conversant with the wehrmacht tactics of ``fingerspitzengefulh`` is being conversant with that other tactic practiced by all professional armies that is known as ``behaltenihrer klebrigfingerspitzen``.

This tactic roughly translates into: ``control your sticky fingers``.

If this tactic was followed, the sticky fingers of generals like zia and his friends would not have plots in islamabad and karachi, millions of dollars of kickbacks and so on sticking to them. :-)

eid mubarak and thanksgiving mubarak too.

re: Fuzair

First of all, Eid Mubarak!

Agreed that the period of the early 1950s saw an increase in Pak army manpower, but those increases were made to a large extent as a subsitutes for the departing British officers.

Fuzair, in my opinion Indian and Pakistani armies are only capable of set piece tactics and that too only on a company level. To implement a moving ambush as you suggested needs operational independence and a high degree of battlefield situational awareness. For example, the Wehrmacht trained its senior NCOs for six months and as any one will tell you, in the final analysis the it all boils down to squad and platoon level actions. The only exception might be the special forces and the special forces are highly trained to deal with the ``fluid battlefield``. In terms of command and performance, the USA`s 90 Day Wonders were no match for a German NCO. Say what you will about the Germans, but the German army had an incredible pool of capable soldiers to conduct operations of offensive or defensive nature, at night or day, while being outnumbered or being in numberical strenght.

I have not seen the level of operational flexibility, which was demonstrated by the Wehrmacht and I do not think that I will ever see it performed again.

The heirarchy of command in Pakistan does not allow for commanders to ``sniff`` the battlefield, but simply states that they follow the ``plan``. The mark of the commander is to improvise a new plan, because the original plan never survives its first contact with enemy. That is why Indian and Pakistan military competence was always challegened when they encountered opposition and they were always found wanting.

You have a solid grasp of the German military tactics and you will understand what I mean, when I say that Indian and Pakistani officers seldom know what the term ``fingerspitzengefulh`` meant. They have no instinct for the battlefield and tend to follow a pre-ordained logic, which makes no sense in the fog of war.

The PAF is different, because the nature of air operations requires operational freedom and PAF pilots were trained for that eventuality and that is, why your statement the intelligence level of PAF is superior to the army makes ample sense. The army is told to follow orders; the PAF is taught to fight by thinking. A submarine commander and a submarine crew in Pakistan Navy will be of much higher intellectual calibre than some one of similar rank in the army. Another aspect to consider is that army shares the British tradition of combat experience in the Second World War. The British combat tactics in the Second World, which the majority of our 1965 and 1971 officers learned as junior officers, favored a safe methodology over tactical fluidity. Specically in the Desert War and then in the Italian campaign, the British army moved slowly against the German and did not show any ``streak of brilliance`` in its operations.

Lately, Pakistani army seems to be following and adopting the battle plans of Bundeswehr for battles in the IGB (Inner German Border) and that is, of an ``offensive-defensive`` war. The idea is that the main balance of the army will be used to stop an attack and then, selected units of armor and mechanized infanty will launch local counter-attacks and seek to distrup the gravity of the attacking force. The two strike corps of Pakistan army are designed with this in purpose in mind, but again, the raw material in those corps might be capable, but still its does not suggest that the army as a whole is capable of mounting and sustaining a high level of battlefield manuoverablity.

However, it can be done, but not with the leadership we have and then, we will have to finely hone the raw material we have into a high degree of professionalism, which can think beyond the scope of its ``sector`` and react with full situational awareness. It is the situational awareness, I am concerned about, because frankly, I do not think that we have been able to instill it in our officer corps or lower ranks.

Ciao

Romair#213
Probably a bit of all! The scare part though applies only to potentially affecting his `badshah` status with the masses.

dost-mittar #210: Thanks for the source.

Shahrukh Khan stills seems silent, though, in the interview. Either he is too idealistic to comment. Or too politically correct. Or too scared.

Nearly all the criticism about Gujrat etc., of the govt., I have seen has come from Hindus. Shabana Azmi being the exception.

People like Shahrukh Khan, Azim Premji etc. seem too apprehensive to criticize these issues. I wonder if they are afraid of losing their popularity.

In the USA, Martin Sheen has been openly cricitizing the US invasion of Iraq. There was fear the ratings of his show, West Wing, would go down. But he is still doing it.

I would expect people like Shahrukh Khan to be on the forefront of criticising things like Gujrat. If they, with all the power they have, don`t do it. Then who else will dare to do it.

Romari and Feroz,

I agree with both of your posts.

The PAF has always attracted a much higher calibre applicant (both OR and officers) than has the PA and many PAF ORs transfer to the Army and become officers (latest NH winner being an example). However, the PAF is what, one tenth, the size of the PA, so they can afford to be much choosier about their raw material. Some PAF chaps that I knew a looong time ago used to say that a PAF sargent was the intellectual equivalent of an army captain and there was a certain amount of truth to this. The PA takes whatever it can get and it is no longer a favored career for many.

Feroz:

I think you might have misunderstood my post slightly. I meant all promotions from 1947 to mid1970s were greatly accelerated. The pace being fastest in the period up to the mid 1950s put pretty quick thereafter as well since the Army kept expanding at a very rapid pace all throughout the 1950s to the early 1980s. However, by Zia`s time, the Army career path was pretty clear and the focus was on having the `right` tickets punched (i.e., as careerist as the US armed forces are). The earlier British Indian Army focus on maximizing time spent with troops was no longer there BUT we have never been as bad as the US army was, with its six-month tours of duty in Vietnam!

1988 and 1972 were somewhat anomalous times and the promotions, while certainly there, did not have the same impact as in the 1950s. For example, Lt. Gen. Saeed Qadir became a Lt. Col. with 7 years of service. Now, PA officers barely make Major with only seven years of service and have to wait several years more to go to Staff College and then, one hopes, the next rank!

There is no doubt that professionally the generals post 1977 are much more competent professionally than the generals in the 1965 and 1971 wars (with some notable exceptions like Akhtar Husain Malik and Eftikhar Janjua). Another thing most of our civilian military analysts do not realize is that we are very limited as to what, exactly, we can do with our troops. What I mean by this is that very complicated maneuvers that require a great deal of coordination, initiative, timing, etc, esp. among armored units, are liable to fail. Now, to a certain extent, this holds true for all troops everywhere but goes in spades for S. Asian militaries. Again, this is probably due to our very low quality manpower (both officers and ORs) and their relative lack of technical sophistication.

For example, Brig, Jaffer Khan, Sword of Honor Winner, Chief Instructor at NDC, superb athlete, etc, etc, blotted his copybook irretrievably when he attempted to have his brigade execute a very complicated maneuver. Basically, IIRC, he was trying to carryout a truly `fluid` battlefield maneuver and have one squadron (maybe the whole regiment) retreat at full speed through prepared defenses, draw the opposing forces into a trap, have the retreating tanks swing around, link up with his remaining regiment and take the enemy from the rear. Thus a hammer and anvil approach.

Needless to say, this maneuver was rehearsed several times and, with the GoC and Corp Commander watching, had to be flawlessly executed. I believe he was told that he was going to get himself into huge trouble if he tried anything this fancy and he should just stick with the old tried and true tactics.

Cut a long story short, complete disaster. Tanks milling around all over the place at high speed, no one knows where to go, driving into their positions from the side, etc, etc. So he didn`t get his second star (there were other issues also but this was a major part of it). No matter how much you train and drill them, there is only so much you can do with the basic raw material. So you work on getting them to be able to carry out simple tasks flawlessly... and the simpler the better. Nothing fancy works with us. So we have these frontal assaults and very dull, predictable, sterile tactics. Nothing fluid, nothing fancy. If you are lucky, the troops carry it out reasonably well.