Operation Searchlight

People often say that we did not learn any lesson from the holocaust of East Pakistan-cum-Bangla Desh. The people of west Pakstan did not need to learn any lesson as they never thought of rising against the army take over of the country which was repeted at least four times. Those who were responsible for the holocaust did not learn any lesson either because even after indulging in all those brutalities against the citizens of Pakistan resulting in breaking up of the country and the nation they were never held answerable for anything. Quran says ``Allah does not guide those who are `Zalim```. What should the `Mazloom` do then? To them Allah says ``Fight against the Zulm`` as those who surrender to zulm are themselves doing zulm to themslves.

Test

#237 by tahmed32 on November 29, 2003 1:10pm PT
The continued interest in ``civilian`` matters is what separates the PAki Generals from their Indian counterpart- that is what my point is. This interest goes beyond that of a good involved citizen- it is the interest of the POWER BROKER-
I have a healthy regard for you and those who understand and oppose the continued interest of the PAki Generals in playing with the extremist Islamists in PAkistan- but you have to understand that their interest is inimical to that of the Indian muslims- every terrorist strike by LeT and other groups in PAkistan on the civilian population creates more support for the hindu extremists. Indian muslims have no interest in the TNT, they rathar want to live peacefully with economic prosperity and avail of the opportunities available in India- and the Islamic terrorists have to stop their activities- but the PAki Generals cannot stop- it has become a part of their institution.

ballukhan #235 that is pure speculation on your part and so i dont buy your explanation. nor do i think all of us on chowk are losers with plenty of time to waste. we just find time for chowk ;-)

ballukhan #144 that i will agree with - we dont need people glorifying a military that has caused so much damage to the country through successive martial laws. i think we need someone like Rumsfeld in pakistan who can re-invent the pakistan military (just as Rumsfeld has been trying to re-invent the US military). With nuclear weapons, the kind of military that romair and co. love so much is no more relevant to pakistan`s defense than brass bands and wapda generals.

As regards the absence of ex-army men from India from this chowk- it is too obvious- they consider this chowk as non-consequential and irrelevant to their profession- i.e defending the country from the designs of frustrated Paki Generals- the presence of Pakistani Generals shows their interest in all ``ciivlian`` matters- the favourite PROFESSION.

#230 by tahmed32 on November 28, 2003 10:28am PT

Can`t help it. Just as the word civilian makes Paki General see red- the reverse happens in my case- especially when they start supporting the martial law administration.

Fuzair: No, his name wasn`t Tariq Javed. Though there was a Tariq Javed in another batch. Kind of a skinny guy, who played soccer, and was from a cadet college (Hasan Abdal, Patoro?).

shobyz #231 With the `tauba` on declaring someone a kafir for any reason, you switch from an F to an A. not C. in my humble judgement.

On the difference between pagan and musli, i think you yourself point to the answer to your question when you say: ``as I am not immune to ‘brainwashed syndrome’.`` i.e., you should make yourself immune in that case, and think for yourself.

That is: if you have faith in your God given faculties to distinguish between right and wrong, and therefore you do not need to look towards what someone else has to say about the matter, then you WILL BE immune to the `brainwashed syndrome`. (this aspect of personal responsibility and faith in oneself is of course also stressed in the Quran as you would know, and also for obvious reasons downplayed by those desiring to do the brainwashing). Thus, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the important things in life, right from wrong, and so forth. And by stressing individual responsibility, the Quran actually makes it easy to live one`s life. Thus: no individual is elevated (as we so often do in status conscious pakistan) and no individual is seen less than any other. one can talk with kings and beggers in the same tone. there are no maulvis, no spiritual ``guides``. This respect for the individual - any individual, regardless of religion - is perhaps the most profound message of the Quran, in my view.

I shall take an F on calling you a Jahil and thus take that back since it is clear from your post that you are not one: a jahil would have started arguing on such issues of facts, or ignored them. You simply accepted the facts as they are, and that is certainly the mark of an intelligent person.

alsi anyone who likes, as you do, indian movie songs (although not necessarily the movies) has to be an OK chap :-)

ballukhan #228 we already have more than enough representation from your countrymen who will clutch at every straw to prove that india is better. you seem like a sensible chap, but seems like even you cant resist the temptation.

how does the exchange of general institutional gossip by a couple of retired military officers translate into a lack of professionalism? its not like there are confidential military matters being discussed here.

there are probably some other reasons for the lack of indian military officers on chowk - perhaps they dont migrate as much to the west (and most chowkies are migrants to the west); perhaps it reflects the fact relative more educated pakistanis have a military background compared to indians; perhaps it is just a statistical fluke - after all we are talking of three or four retired army officers here, one of whom (romair) didnt even server for very long but maintains an obvious interest.

please try to stay above some of your other countrymen like arjun and jay. i could speculate why we dont have such cheapsters represented from the pakistan side, but i wont.

#218, #219: Tahmed32,

Shoot!!! Failed again.

You wrote:
“
Because if you knew the ABCs of the Quran, you would know that it says very clearly that issues of religion are not the concern of any man. If Sharuk chooses to bow before a statue in a movie, that is his business and (per the Quran) and it is not for you to judge whether he is a kafir or not.
“
Agreed and ‘tawba’ will I dare to call him or any one a kafir. Please read again.

Now can I get a C!

Since you graded me, thus judged me, hope you can enlighten me your understanding of few ayaat explaining what ‘Iman’ is comparing to ‘paganism’ only, and how it should be practiced comparing to ‘paganism’ only.

What triggered me to write previously was when I read some writing suggesting ‘Sharuks and alike….” Should voice to help the muslim in India of avoiding ‘meat burning carnival’. If some one suggest that guy like ‘sharuks…” should move forward as semi leader for muslims whom my ‘as…. frying’ is dependent, then I have a right to know how deeply he cares about muslim without compromising my faith. Merely mentioning it is only between ‘him and Allah’ may lead me to believe in ‘Alcohol and womanizing is acceptable’ as I am not immune to ‘brainwashed syndrome’.


You wrote:
“
You mean as a practicing JAHIL. Because if you were a muslim, your blood would boil at the corrupt Mullahs. Not at people who point them out.
“

Didn’t you just say that you believe who is what is only between him and the creator? Now you judged me as ‘a practicing JAHIL’. Any grade you may deserve for judging me.

Either I failed to write good enough, thus reader got wrong impression of what my intended expression was, or you picked a sentence and took out of context of a narration and trying to inject your views via distorting of what I wrote.

Cool down!!! I like ‘ Ye kali kali akhi…’. Did you know there is a Spanish song with same music released much earlier then ‘Bazigaar’.

are any army guys from India on the chowk??? -NOPE?

It appears that our guys stick to their jobs and do not discuss un-necessary politics- THIS IS PROFESSIONALISM.

fountainheader #227 right you are sir. Salman Khan is the single-pasli pehalwan that i meant.

ironman #220 i cant place shahrukh, but will check with my resident PhD in Indian movies (who happens to be my wife) and I am sure she will confirm your findings.

hi tahmed

i think the person you intend to punish is Salman Khan, and not Shahrukh, who has rarely if ever bared his chest. the only occasion I remember is for a few minutes in Darr when he carves his girlfriend`s name (kkkkkkkkkiran) on his chest with a knife. Otherwise you can pretty much bet your shirt on Shahrukh to keep his shirt on. :)

Romair, may i ask, please: Would love to know, which G-course do you belong?
Asking because I myself have very close affiliations with PAF in general and G-courses in particular.

Regards

Eid Mubarak everyone.

Feroz: detailed reply to your post to follow; we have tons of friends and family coming and its getting to be quite a madhouse here!

Pakistan needs to start with a formal apology to Bangladesh for 1971 and arrange

for the repatriation of

the ``Biharis`` or Stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh.

What are the chances of this happening any time soon?

Ras

I wonder if there are any army guys from India on the chowk- this chowk is full of the Band Brigade of the Martial Law Ruler/s- Can they please provide a counter view about the megalomaniac army personnell form Pakistan who think they know more about civilian administration and polity than any one else???

Romair #221,

Interesting post. In the Army, to go beyond Brig., one has to do the War Course (or at least the National Defense Course). This, ostensibly, gives one an MA degree. Given that its a year long course, some of the people attending it must learn something!

BTW, the person who topped both the PAF and PA Engineering courses wouldn`t happen to be named Tariq Javed would he?

Fuzair/Feroze: There is a distinct difference between the calibre of individuals going into the three different forces of military in Pakistan. There is also a difference within the different branch within each force. As well as a difference between the various generations of individuals in the military.

During my cadet days, there was a huge movement to jointly train all the forces together. The aim was to introduce the officers to each other and to the various branches of the military at a young age. Navy pilots being trained with the PAF. PAF cadets being trained in Kakul. Army cadets in Karachi, etc.

The aim was to set up a common combined first stage college/academy for all branches, before they went to their own academies, like India has. It was a good idea. Even though, the final college never got established. However, the sending of cadets to each others` institutions continues.

Invariably, all the PAF cadets sent to JCB (Army) were at the top of their class. However, the Army cadets that ended up with the PAF, had a huge problem. After the first two semesters, a large number of them had flunked out, academically. They had been selected for one branch (Army) and ended up, through coincidence, being kicked out of the other branch`s institution.

However, those who made it, did all get to know each other, and are still close friends. The guy who got the sword of honor from my parallel courses in the Navy, Army, flying course in PAF were all initially trained at some stage by the PAF - with the later two being my roommates at one point. The guy who topped the Engineering course in the Army, was initially trained by PAF also (where he topped the PAF, as well).

There are three areas, that I know of in the military where the academic standards are very high. One is PAF Engineering. The other is Army Medical College. The third is the National University of Science and Tech. PAF Engineering has about the same standard of the US colleges, right below the Ivy League tier (I say this through personal experience). Its top graduates would do well in the Ivy League schools. Quite a few of them have MS and Ph.Ds from abroad. AMC (I am told) was (still is?) ranked behind Aga Khan, alongwith King Edwards, as the second best medical college in Pakistan. NUST is ranked the top university in Pakistan and the twentieth best in Asia. I think PAF Eng. and Army Medical are now part of NUST.

The thing with the Pakistan military is that those in command (combat) branches are not required (nor encouraged) to get any training/education beyond what is needed for fighting a war (Fighter conversion courses, Staff colleges, SSG courses etc.). While those who do get higher education (like Ph.Ds from abroad) are mainly from the non-combat branches. And thus never get to the top General positions. Unlike the USA, where its top Generals of the command branches all have at least a Masters and in many cases Ph.Ds.

Since the Pakistani civilians only interface to the military are the combat branch Generals, they never get to the, ``brains`` that do exist in the military (whom I have seen and worked with first hand).

Obviously, if someone is not willing to be in the front line of combat, he cannot be promoted to the top positions in the military. So the solution is to have the command branch individuals be sent for advanced civlian degrees, to supplement their Staff college degrees. However, having the combination of being, say, a really good fighter pilot, a really good commander and leader of men, a really good administrator, a really good academician, and fearless enough to risk one`s live, is extremely rare.

I have met very very few individuals who have all these qualities. The few who do have these qualities either die carrying out their duty, or leave the military for civilian jobs where they can make ten times their military salary (even inside Pakistan). I think the military seriously needs to raise its salary structure to ensure individuals like these get attracted to the military, and those who are in the military with these qualities, do not leave.

#218 by tahmed32,

``What Sharuk does deserve to be punished for is taking off his shirt in every movie and displaying his chirri sized chest as if he is some kind of a Rambo.``

Never mind chest west...its his cutesy way of talking that gets me every time...grrrrr!

:)

shobuz #217 you write ``My learning of Quran says NO compromise on ‘la ilaha illallah’ and acting of such practice makes any one a kafir, PERIOD. ``

Your learning of the Quran gets an F (for Fail). PERIOD.

Because if you knew the ABCs of the Quran, you would know that it says very clearly that issues of religion are not the concern of any man. If Sharuk chooses to bow before a statue in a movie, that is his business and (per the Quran) and it is not for you to judge whether he is a kafir or not.

What Sharuk does deserve to be punished for is taking off his shirt in every movie and displaying his chirri sized chest as if he is some kind of a Rambo.

shobuz #217 you also write ``Not all Muslims are corrupt Mullah’s, neither I practice judging other peoples via means, but my blood boils occasionally as a practicing MUSLIM``

You mean as a practicing JAHIL. Because if you were a muslim, your blood would boil at the corrupt Mullahs. Not at people who point them out.

Is acting as a ‘pagan’ for the sake of earning acceptable in Islam? Can ‘la-ilaha-illalah’ be on sidetrack due to acting with a ‘bowing scene in front a statue’?

While I am afraid of my own Akhira, I certainly do not have a minuscule capability to judge of what will happen to Sharuks in the day of Akhira. My learning of Quran says NO compromise on ‘la ilaha illallah’ and acting of such practice makes any one a kafir, PERIOD.

I certainly am not for violence and not found of at all of corrupt-Mullah’s, but I for sure not able to cool my blood when I see atrocities in any form. There does exist genuine atrocities towards Muslim of just being Muslim. Simply dig the facts of the very people who are crying wolf and branding Islam with a bad name.

Allah is well aware of our biology, chemical reaction to our body and our psyche. We are declared as imperfect in Quran and asked not to practice man made rule on basic justice of humanity on taking life and equality. These applies to all people, be a muslim or not muslim.

Billions of Billions people can spent all their life of thousand years to formulate the best system to get rid of ‘imperfect or bad things’ from this world. For the believers ‘bad death’, either as a victim or killer is ‘one bad’ thing, but not the end of ‘big picture’. Hence bad things have happened and will happen. Why is it that way? I do not know. But when it comes for justice: you kill one (or hundred) either by direct action or indirect action, or you inflict injustice, then it better be a action of pure accident and face the day of judgment. It all comes down to you and only your gut feelings of, were I motivated of killing him/her not of what he/she individually did grave wrong that needed a death penalty, but because………….. If later is the case, then no religious affiliation, race, skin color, nationality, groups, philosophy, Aristotle, Great Alexander, Washington, Ghandi, Muzib will be counted, and justice will be served promptly. In Islam there is no ‘collateral damage’, no ‘My general said so’, no ‘for the sake of my country’, no ‘my teaching and philosophy said so’, no ‘My Mullah or Pir Shahib said so’, no ‘Jamayeet a Islam said so’, no ‘Nabi said so (Prophets wouldn’t dare to attributes lies to God, as people does using hundreds of false hadits), no ‘every body said/did so’. Knowing, believing, practicing and prophesizing THIS is a grave responsibility that was ordained to every people via Allah via various mean and recently via Quran.

I enjoy Sharuks, Salman,…Dilip’s movies. 1000 Sharuks types people will prophez what??????? Or am I at mercy of life/death, justice issues on hindus or any people, so these actors would advocate them not to kill us. Say what……………………… A Bomb, Submarine, software, fluent english, hi, hello, Scientific achivemnt are the only way........

Not all Muslims are corrupt Mullah’s, neither I practice judging other peoples via means, but my blood boils occasionally as a practicing MUSLIM………..

ferozk #215 I think that for pakistani army officers, even more important than being conversant with the wehrmacht tactics of ``fingerspitzengefulh`` is being conversant with that other tactic practiced by all professional armies that is known as ``behaltenihrer klebrigfingerspitzen``.

This tactic roughly translates into: ``control your sticky fingers``.

If this tactic was followed, the sticky fingers of generals like zia and his friends would not have plots in islamabad and karachi, millions of dollars of kickbacks and so on sticking to them. :-)

eid mubarak and thanksgiving mubarak too.

re: Fuzair

First of all, Eid Mubarak!

Agreed that the period of the early 1950s saw an increase in Pak army manpower, but those increases were made to a large extent as a subsitutes for the departing British officers.

Fuzair, in my opinion Indian and Pakistani armies are only capable of set piece tactics and that too only on a company level. To implement a moving ambush as you suggested needs operational independence and a high degree of battlefield situational awareness. For example, the Wehrmacht trained its senior NCOs for six months and as any one will tell you, in the final analysis the it all boils down to squad and platoon level actions. The only exception might be the special forces and the special forces are highly trained to deal with the ``fluid battlefield``. In terms of command and performance, the USA`s 90 Day Wonders were no match for a German NCO. Say what you will about the Germans, but the German army had an incredible pool of capable soldiers to conduct operations of offensive or defensive nature, at night or day, while being outnumbered or being in numberical strenght.

I have not seen the level of operational flexibility, which was demonstrated by the Wehrmacht and I do not think that I will ever see it performed again.

The heirarchy of command in Pakistan does not allow for commanders to ``sniff`` the battlefield, but simply states that they follow the ``plan``. The mark of the commander is to improvise a new plan, because the original plan never survives its first contact with enemy. That is why Indian and Pakistan military competence was always challegened when they encountered opposition and they were always found wanting.

You have a solid grasp of the German military tactics and you will understand what I mean, when I say that Indian and Pakistani officers seldom know what the term ``fingerspitzengefulh`` meant. They have no instinct for the battlefield and tend to follow a pre-ordained logic, which makes no sense in the fog of war.

The PAF is different, because the nature of air operations requires operational freedom and PAF pilots were trained for that eventuality and that is, why your statement the intelligence level of PAF is superior to the army makes ample sense. The army is told to follow orders; the PAF is taught to fight by thinking. A submarine commander and a submarine crew in Pakistan Navy will be of much higher intellectual calibre than some one of similar rank in the army. Another aspect to consider is that army shares the British tradition of combat experience in the Second World War. The British combat tactics in the Second World, which the majority of our 1965 and 1971 officers learned as junior officers, favored a safe methodology over tactical fluidity. Specically in the Desert War and then in the Italian campaign, the British army moved slowly against the German and did not show any ``streak of brilliance`` in its operations.

Lately, Pakistani army seems to be following and adopting the battle plans of Bundeswehr for battles in the IGB (Inner German Border) and that is, of an ``offensive-defensive`` war. The idea is that the main balance of the army will be used to stop an attack and then, selected units of armor and mechanized infanty will launch local counter-attacks and seek to distrup the gravity of the attacking force. The two strike corps of Pakistan army are designed with this in purpose in mind, but again, the raw material in those corps might be capable, but still its does not suggest that the army as a whole is capable of mounting and sustaining a high level of battlefield manuoverablity.

However, it can be done, but not with the leadership we have and then, we will have to finely hone the raw material we have into a high degree of professionalism, which can think beyond the scope of its ``sector`` and react with full situational awareness. It is the situational awareness, I am concerned about, because frankly, I do not think that we have been able to instill it in our officer corps or lower ranks.

Ciao

Romair#213
Probably a bit of all! The scare part though applies only to potentially affecting his `badshah` status with the masses.

dost-mittar #210: Thanks for the source.

Shahrukh Khan stills seems silent, though, in the interview. Either he is too idealistic to comment. Or too politically correct. Or too scared.

Nearly all the criticism about Gujrat etc., of the govt., I have seen has come from Hindus. Shabana Azmi being the exception.

People like Shahrukh Khan, Azim Premji etc. seem too apprehensive to criticize these issues. I wonder if they are afraid of losing their popularity.

In the USA, Martin Sheen has been openly cricitizing the US invasion of Iraq. There was fear the ratings of his show, West Wing, would go down. But he is still doing it.

I would expect people like Shahrukh Khan to be on the forefront of criticising things like Gujrat. If they, with all the power they have, don`t do it. Then who else will dare to do it.

Romari and Feroz,

I agree with both of your posts.

The PAF has always attracted a much higher calibre applicant (both OR and officers) than has the PA and many PAF ORs transfer to the Army and become officers (latest NH winner being an example). However, the PAF is what, one tenth, the size of the PA, so they can afford to be much choosier about their raw material. Some PAF chaps that I knew a looong time ago used to say that a PAF sargent was the intellectual equivalent of an army captain and there was a certain amount of truth to this. The PA takes whatever it can get and it is no longer a favored career for many.

Feroz:

I think you might have misunderstood my post slightly. I meant all promotions from 1947 to mid1970s were greatly accelerated. The pace being fastest in the period up to the mid 1950s put pretty quick thereafter as well since the Army kept expanding at a very rapid pace all throughout the 1950s to the early 1980s. However, by Zia`s time, the Army career path was pretty clear and the focus was on having the `right` tickets punched (i.e., as careerist as the US armed forces are). The earlier British Indian Army focus on maximizing time spent with troops was no longer there BUT we have never been as bad as the US army was, with its six-month tours of duty in Vietnam!

1988 and 1972 were somewhat anomalous times and the promotions, while certainly there, did not have the same impact as in the 1950s. For example, Lt. Gen. Saeed Qadir became a Lt. Col. with 7 years of service. Now, PA officers barely make Major with only seven years of service and have to wait several years more to go to Staff College and then, one hopes, the next rank!

There is no doubt that professionally the generals post 1977 are much more competent professionally than the generals in the 1965 and 1971 wars (with some notable exceptions like Akhtar Husain Malik and Eftikhar Janjua). Another thing most of our civilian military analysts do not realize is that we are very limited as to what, exactly, we can do with our troops. What I mean by this is that very complicated maneuvers that require a great deal of coordination, initiative, timing, etc, esp. among armored units, are liable to fail. Now, to a certain extent, this holds true for all troops everywhere but goes in spades for S. Asian militaries. Again, this is probably due to our very low quality manpower (both officers and ORs) and their relative lack of technical sophistication.

For example, Brig, Jaffer Khan, Sword of Honor Winner, Chief Instructor at NDC, superb athlete, etc, etc, blotted his copybook irretrievably when he attempted to have his brigade execute a very complicated maneuver. Basically, IIRC, he was trying to carryout a truly `fluid` battlefield maneuver and have one squadron (maybe the whole regiment) retreat at full speed through prepared defenses, draw the opposing forces into a trap, have the retreating tanks swing around, link up with his remaining regiment and take the enemy from the rear. Thus a hammer and anvil approach.

Needless to say, this maneuver was rehearsed several times and, with the GoC and Corp Commander watching, had to be flawlessly executed. I believe he was told that he was going to get himself into huge trouble if he tried anything this fancy and he should just stick with the old tried and true tactics.

Cut a long story short, complete disaster. Tanks milling around all over the place at high speed, no one knows where to go, driving into their positions from the side, etc, etc. So he didn`t get his second star (there were other issues also but this was a major part of it). No matter how much you train and drill them, there is only so much you can do with the basic raw material. So you work on getting them to be able to carry out simple tasks flawlessly... and the simpler the better. Nothing fancy works with us. So we have these frontal assaults and very dull, predictable, sterile tactics. Nothing fluid, nothing fancy. If you are lucky, the troops carry it out reasonably well.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Romair: [Tariq Ali: sorry for the digression]

Romair, you asked a few times why actors like Shahrukh Khan are silent about the communal situation in India. Here are some excerpts from an interview Shahrukh Khan gave to Shekhar Gupta on TV. The full excerpt is in today`s Indian Express.

``In the past, people like Dilip Kumar, so many of the big stars, had to change their names...Madhubala...had to change their Muslim names to something that was more religion-neutral. Today, you, Salman Khan, Aamir Khan, you are all carrying your own names... So what has changed so you would feel sort of — I won’t say secure enough — but relaxed enough to retain the Muslim names...
I really don’t know the timings of the people you mentioned, like Dilip saheb. I think that has got to do more with Kumars at the time. The name Kumar attached...it was something done with a lot of actors.

But does anything make you conscious of your Muslim identity?
No. I was never made to feel...I think I am a majority.

Majority in the sense of how many people love you?
Never have I been made to feel...

Or when you see what’s been happening in the country, whether it’s Babri Masjid, whether it be what happened in Gujarat...
It bothers me. Even if it happens to Christians, to Hindus or to Muslims. It’s very very disturbing...because I am married to a Hindu lady. My children will be brought up knowing both the religions... and they can make their choice or they can become Christians if they feel like. I think that’s the kind of secularism and communal feeling we should have.

I’ve read somewhere that you have said if Hindus and Muslims can’t sort out the Babri Masjid issue, give it to the Christians...
Give it to someone else. I don’t even think...actually give it to Indians to sort it out themselves. And don’t think of them as Muslims and Hindus, or as Christians or Sikhs. Think of them as Indians.

And don’t think of them as political beings...
Politicising religion is the easiest way to do it. Religion is the opium of masses...

But do you see more of that happening now in India: politicising of religion?
Not more, I think, since I’ve been able to read newspapers, I have noticed lot of it is politicised. People should realise.

Because you are truly a pan-Indian role model, you don’t see yourself as a Muslim or a Hindu, nor do we. Does it sometimes make you think that maybe people like you have to rise and play a proactive role in stopping this?
I don’t know how to do it. I think I am too much of a yuppie and too greedy to give up my personal selfish life.

You are used to a soft life, is it?
I am too used to...not a soft life, I work very hard. I am used to a life which is just about me and my family and my close friends. I think I am too much in love with myself to give it all up. At least at this age as I talk. Maybe later on...

But you see yourself doing something? Richard Gere, for example, Jane Fonda, they have all become active in either causes or they are trying to make a difference...
I don’t believe in institutions doing the causes. I want to do them myself. I have lot of thoughts in my mind to open orphanages and hospitals, but I want to do it from the money that I earn from films. I don’t want business houses helping me. I don’t want no central force helping me. I want to do it myself.

What are you reading these days?
Right now, I’ve just started a book called Chancers, a fiction about an actor who doesn’t know what to do in his profession because he’s been out of work for the last five years. And I was reading Prophet Mohammed’s biography, an English lady has done a very nice book on Prophet Mohammed.

That’s a new thing I believe. You are reading a lot of books on Islam.
I am reading a lot on Islam. I need to know why is so much happening in the name of Christianity and Islam...I am from an Irish Brothers’ school, so I knew a bit about Christianity. But I wanted to know about the politics of what is happening, because I believe I am Islamic, I am a Muslim. I know the meaning of Quran to a certain extent, I have read it.

Do you pray?
I pray.

Five times a day?
No, not five times a day. The religion part of it I don’t follow so staunchly maybe. But I am a true believer of Allah. And I haven’t read anything anywhere which makes me feel aggressive

So the question you are asking yourself is how is Islam acquiring this aggressive trait? And why such hostility and insecurity about Islam?
Why such hostility, internationally, especially in the West, in America. It should not be so. I don’t think...

Things like Iraq, Palestine do these bother you?
Yes, they bother me. It troubles me to know that they are reading the same book that I’ve read and I am sure that they have the same belief as I have. Then why are some people looking at it with aggression? I think there is a misunderstanding.

That’s very interesting. US has Al-Qaeda suspects from all nationalities but not one Indian. Mr L K Advani made this point on this show that even in our Kashmir, you know there’s terrorism, but we have hardly found any other Indian Muslim caught in terrorism. So there is something about the Indian system, the Constitution or may be our ethos which has given the Indian Muslim the feeling that ‘Look, if I have a problem, I can get justice or redressal in this system’. Do you believe that?
Yes, I believe. I think Indian Muslims are really wonderful. I think, to live in a country dominated not by religion, and to live peacefully, and to be able to have friends. And I am sure all the Hindus also love them.

But, as a Muslim, given what happened in the last few years — Gujarat, Ayodhya — have you felt more secure, less secure or have you felt bothered?
I am bothered. I am not insecure or secure. I don’t think anyone can say anything to me living in this country because I am a true blue Indian and nobody can take that right away from me, or my family on the basis of the religion I follow. And I very strongly believe that. I don’t feel insecure at all...I don’t feel more secure about... But it bothers me to read and see images. It could have been Hindu or Muslim images. But the images that one sees, one does get bothered.

What is it that bothers you in our political discourse right now?
It bothers me that a lot of politicians are using religion as a baton for explaining their right to rule. And I think...

Give me some examples...
All of them, you know, the guys who say when they talk about being pro-Hindu. They should say ‘OK, Hinduism is fantastic, i has the fantastic qualities in the world’. I have read the Ramayan, the Mahabharat — Amar Chitra Katha version — I have acted in Ramleelas. My friends are all Hindus. So I understand their philosophy. But by saying that Hinduism is good, you can’t prove that one religion is better than the other or deride the other. Similarly the Islamic people do it, and they say that ‘Oh! these guys are killing us’. Nobody is killing nobody. It’s just Indians killing Indians, and that’s shameful.

But Shah Rukh, those are nice sentiments, but I think this situation has to improve and communities have to come closer. First of all Hindi cinema has to play a big role. It’s been playing a big role. In fact one of our most secular institutions has been Hindi cinema, barring some films recently. I bet they bothered you as well.
They bothered me a lot. They show our neighbours in bad light. We don’t need to make bad guys of some other countries. We have enough bad guys, enough good guys in this country. We have enough heroes, enough villains in this country. I think we should exhaust that before looking outside for bad guys.``

re: Fuzair # 194

Fuzair, I agree with you. Still, Pakistani army also saw a great deal of rapid promotions after 1947, when the army was short of officers. In many ways, people were promoted beyond their competence. Then was the rush to promote in 1971 and there was rash of promotions after Z. A. Bhutto fired the top leadership of the army. After the death of Zia and his generals in 1988, there was another rush of promotions.

Ciao

Re Ras sahib # 205

You`re too kind sir. Ammi is in teaching Biology to the afternoon shift crowd at St Jo though she has promised us this will be her last year:)

Our house is in Mohammadpur; the new place is on Nazrul Islam Road (the name may have been different before) and the old one is off Zakir Hussain Road (almost by Lalmatia).

When I was there six years ago, Balaka Cinema was still opposite New Market. I suspect it still is.

Re Stuka 204

You`re right. I should have emphasized the hardiness of the earlier generation more. That said, the mix of the so-called citizen-soldier and the hedonistic culture does create rather less-than-hardy soldiers,

stuka #203 there is probably an element of fact in what you write about the pakistan right wing (or more accurately, the religious right wing) being less suave than their indian counterparts. the important thing of course is that both sides stink.

if someone is still a marxist, as you say bidwai is, then that is of course quite dumb. while some things marx wrote make sense (notably his theory that socio-cultural-political structures are a function of nature of technology) the rest (notably his call for socializing means of production) has of course been disproved after the colossal failure of the 70 year experiment aka the soviet union. as i said, i havent read enough of him to be able to pass judgement.

all i can say is that if someone (as in case of bidwai) annoys the religious right wing (suave or neanderthal) in india or in pakistan, then that person must be saying something right.

RE: #167 sigalph235.

Is your house towards Dhanmondi, Mohammadpur or the Old Capital side?

Is Balaka Cinema still there or New Market? Your mother teaches at St Jo?

No wonder you write so well....


RE: Dard #169

Your reply was music to my ears. You are a true Pakistani...


RE; #196 by shobuz

What can I say to you? Your honesty speaks for all of us...


I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone


Ras

Sigalph:

``I personally doubt that this band of warriors would have won the victory over the NAzis as quickly as their much hardier forefathers did. An army ought to reflect the society AROUND it but be thoroughly insular FROM it, so thought the British and they built us those wonderful cantonments. ``

I am surprised by your statement. The American soldiers who fought and died fighting the Nazis were predominantly citizen soldiers. One might argue that the ethos of society itself has changed with the boomers bringing on a whiny, self-centred outlook. But, the professional army pre WW2 was much smaller than the force which actually went to fight in Europe and the Pacific, draftees mostly.

TAhmed:

``i did read an article from bidwai on chowk that did not strike me as being particularly egregious. but again, i didnt read the article too carefully, being more interested in the discussion taking place``

Don`t get me wrong. If you take an individual article as a stand alone, u will find that Bidwai says a lot of reasonable stuff. The problem is that Bidwai writes a lot, and the MORE you read, you realize that his thinking is one track and there is a Marxist ideological bias.

I would concede that Pakistanis take more easly to introspection (a gross generalization, but my opinion nevertheless) as compared to Indians. The reason is that the english media in Pakistan is dominated by lefties who bash Pakistan all the time whereas the media in India is equally divided between lefties and righties therefore lefties bashing India often get bashed by righties in turn. Make sense?

Oh yeah, and Indian righties are more suave then Pakistani righties. The Pakistani rightist will talk of Hindu mentality etc and make a fool of himself thereby exposing himself to be a bigot. The Indian rightie will make all the right noises about secualrism and plurality but then pass on comments equally bigoted but will get away. :)

re: ahmadzai # 162

The level of ignorance is simply staggering...

My dear Ahmadzai ji, rather than taking the route you have chossen to, a wiser strategy for you would be to help lift Pakistan up.

stuka #163/pmishra #175: thanks for your posts describing further your views on certain indian writers like khushwant singh and bidwai. i certainly agree on the benchmark for judging a political commentator that stuka mentioned (i.e. if his reasoning is rational and based on reasonable assumptions). how well this applies to these writers, i leave for you to judge since my knowledge of what they are talking about is certainly limited.

i did read an article from bidwai on chowk that did not strike me as being particularly egregious. but again, i didnt read the article too carefully, being more interested in the discussion taking place (if a writer isnt available to defend his work on chowk, his article becomes quite uninteresting - since chowk is for discussion, and if one wanted to read a serious article albeit without the writer being present to respond to comments, there are enought books, magazines, websites avaialble for that). on khuswant singh, from your posts, it seems there is no controvsey then.

i am not sure how the writers on muslim culture and history that were also mentioned stack up in your view against the same benchmark. i do know that having read one of bernard lewis` books i found it to be quite factual, informative, interesting. it mostly had to do with the fall of the ottoman empire, and the reasons for it, and i thought it was quite insightful and well worth reading by all those who think maybe it is time to bring back a caliph in muslim countries. i see on chowk some pakistanis criticise him bitterly, but when probed for something specific he said i found no specific examples being presented.

someday i might become interested in finding out how sound bidwai, pipes and others are as writers, and that day i shall check out their originals as stuka suggested.

till then, i shall content myself with the thought that there are enough chauvinists in indian as well as pakistani society that a few critics can only help. criticism hurts, but a critic is a society`s best friend whereas a chauvinist is not. imho.

re:#197 by pmishra2
Mishraji,
All that article points out is that BJP seems to be having a very flexible foreign policy geared to the needs of its security intersts, which is how it should be. It may have learnt its lessons from Gujarat carnage but only time will tell. Most of the rest are speculations by the author.
Sridhar

fuzair #194: Your comment about the Generals being promoted quickly, prior to 71, is insightful and accurate. Though, for some reason, it did not affect the PAF. I think Asghar Khan was 36 years old (?) when he became the Chief of Air Staff. I have always been amazed at his far sightedness. He single-handedly set up an Air Force, which gained recongnition outside Pakistan. Even though Air Force is such hi-tech business, and difficult for third world countries to operate.

Nur Khan is also highly thought of. Though he was a very young General also. I wonder why the Army has never been able to produce its Asghar Khans.

``I have a certain amount of first-hand observation experience here and I can safely say that, on average, our (both Indian and Pakistani actually) armies need officers to do what the US Army does with NCOs. You simply cannot rely on our enlisted men to carry out tasks competently and efficiently (with some honorable exceptions, of course)``

This is probably true for the Army. However, it is not true for the Air Force (and probably Navy also). In the Air Force, all enlisted ranks, regardless of country, have to put together and take apart aircraft. The ones taking apart F-16s in Pakistan have to do the same tasks as those in the USA. Many enlisted guys from the PAF become officers in the Army. In fact, I know a few enlisted airmen, who have even become Generals in the PAF.

Though for an Army, I would think loyalty, patience, dedication etc. would be more important than technical skills, for enlisted ranks.

Americans are an exception to the rule of enlisted. In the USA, people join enlisted ranks for a few years, to get an education, make some money and then get into civilian professional careers. I think Chuck Yeager`s son was enlisted. As were probably many successful CEOs, Professors, etc. in the USA. One of my bosses in San Jose, used to be an enlisted policeman in the USAF. He was the director of the company, I worked for, and had lines of MIT and Harvard grads under him.

US military is in a league of its own. One cannot compare it to other countries. It has no weaknesses. $400 billion budget. Extraordinarily good equipment. Hi-tech research. Well-fed and looked after. Excellent benefits. Well-trained. Dedicated. Enlisted guys getting Bachelors degrees. Officers getting Ph.Ds (including command branches, not just engineers). With a solid political leadership, deciding where they should fight and not fight.

The guy commanding the 101st Airborne (?) in Iraq did an interview. He is a Maj. General, and is a Ph.D. from Princeton in economics. Imagine.

Re 193 thru 195

Three years ago a certain Colonel Qayyum wrote some reminiscences and perspectives in Sehgal`s Defense Journal on the ideas and officers of the Pakistan Army. He basically surmised that the strategic outlook of individual Pakistani officers was largely non-existent or, at best, myopic in that they could never think beyond a battalion level. Such narrowness of outlook, the retired colonel further opined, continued as a given officer went from Lt. Colonel all the way to a senior general officer. Of the few exceptions to this phenomenom were Generals Attiqur Rehman, Shaukat Riza, and of course the aristocratic Sahibzada Yaqub Ali Khan.

With further reference to the Sahibzada as a cardinal example, Colonel Qayyum maintained that it was the cold, calculated, insular persona exemplified by the Anglicized old officer corps that Yaqub Khan personified and the newer breed detested. That fastidious, almost patrician, bearing also helped create a thoughtful, ie broader, strategic outlook. With the `nativization` of the Army and its officer corps, along with the true patrcian-ness the attendant visionary outlook was also discarded in favor of more `awami` type ethos (perhaps symbolized by Gen Musa?). When officers were officers, and men men, the author mused!

As for the ice-cream American soldiers, it may just have a grain of truth to it. I have always felt, in an almost snobbish Commonwealth tradition, that you downgrade the fighting quality of combat personnel as soon as you mix professionals with week-end warriors. UNfortunately, the United States Armed Forces are perhaps the biggest experimentation with this professional-weekender mixing. I personally doubt that this band of warriors would have won the victory over the NAzis as quickly as their much hardier forefathers did. An army ought to reflect the society AROUND it but be thoroughly insular FROM it, so thought the British and they built us those wonderful cantonments.

#192 sridhar

With regret I have to say this article is saying something different. It says that the Arabs and the Chinese don`t give a damn about human rights and episodes like Gujarat. And thats why the BJP finds it easy to talk to these parties. In contrast, we have the ``Christian`` west and hindu liberals who condemn the use of violence repeatedly, and have forced the BJP to restrain its ``lumpen`` foot-soldiers.

Overall, I think this articles arguments are very shallow and unsupported. Real-politik determines the progress India has made in Central, West and East Asia. It is tied to indian modernization, awareness that indians will be a large player in the next 5-10 years etc. It has very little to do with the BJP`s ideological moorings. People like Vajpayee have always had a broad non-ideological foreign policy in mind. This was true 20 years ago. Today the country has the economic heft to back up this vision.

On a different note, I am glad that even the nuts in the BJP (Shri Modi and company) recognize the importance of economic growth and progress. If nothing else, it will ensure that their brand of polarizing politics becomes irrelevant sooner than later. Or will it?

Some writing opens old wound, and some heals wound.

Some of the old hurlings pre 71:
Pakistanis to Benglais:
Bengalis eat fish-smell like fish.
urdu is the only way to advance
Bengalis eat white rice yet they are black.
Bengalis talk funny, smell funny and eat funny food.
Bengalis names are muslim but they are Hindu in their heart.

Bengalis to Pakistanis:
Panjabis are janowar
Pakis are half brained and half are ataa (flour)
..
..
..

Hurling went on between two sides for many years. It was inevitable that they would breakup today or tomorrow.

Any one knows of any of post 71 name callings.....

Some memory flashback of 71: …..A bihary boss killed Bengalis in is house and later EPR killed him and let go women…..A Punjabi guard killed his Bengali Boss, because he hurled him as ‘panjabi janowar’…..My father were constantly harassed by his Pakistani customer in Habib Bank, yet my fathers Bihari colleague helped us every single way by buying us food when we could not go out afraid of army gonna kill us… some ‘Major Manjur’ came (through some friends) to our house and when he saw me, he wanted to hug me so badly and my mother got afraid and was crying till he assured my parent that I only reminded him the son he left home in Rawalpindi. Major Manjur said he was told to come to East Pakistan and to kill ‘kafirs’, but he said he did not see any ‘kafir’……Army from Chittagong cantonment gathered unknown Bengalis near ‘Batali Hill’ and we used to see a light from the top of the mountain used to go out and few seconds later we used to hear the firing. We saw corpses in the big water drain of Bengalis and Biharis as some took the opportunity to settle old scores not related to war. We saw earless several Pakistani soldiers begging for their lives…..saw rikshawala lying dead with bullet hole in his head. We hide an assistant manager of a mill owned by Pakistani when EPR came to kill him………


I love my bengalism, but also liked urdu people. I enjoyed our differences and was bond with a faith of muslim brotherhood. Our common faith, Iman could not help us to see the benefit of brotherhood and peace. People with race-pride …..got their wishes come true.

I do fill a brother is lost though I had to loose him. People should not believe that army can solve the problem as West Pakistanis thought then.

When Pakistan and India played, my support went to Pakistan. When India played with any other nation my support went to India. Now I do not like any of them, as we loose miserably.

But again for the heck of it, I find many reasons to be found of both Indian and Pakistanis as I have friends from both countries.

Oh, and I should also add that our ORs are patient, long-suffering, and don`t complain a tenth as much as the US ice cream soldiers. However, for a mechanized force, they really aren`t that useful.

Re: the debate on Pakistani generals,

One thing that must not be forgotten is that everybody who became a general before 1971 was on the promotion fast track after Partition. They had neither the training nor the experience to adequately prepare them for the positions they held in the Pakistan Army. Ayub Khan, with British and US help, tried to send people for Senior Officer`s Courses and short training visits, etc, but this isn`t going to substitute for years of experience and proper grooming. As a rough rule of thumb, most people got at least two promotions past their level of competence and some (e.g., Musa) managed three (a distorted Peter Principle at work here).

In contrast to this, everybody who got their first star under Zia (the last of the prePartition commissioned officers) had much more formal military training and experience. However, they also served in a much more politicized and corrupt military, so what would have mattered more if there had been a full-scale war in 1986 or 1990? Who knows? Certainly the Pakistani Army would not have made the same stupid blunders then that it did in 1965 or 1971. It would have made new ones, of course.

Finally, lets not go overboard about our JCOs/NCOs/ORs. I have a certain amount of first-hand observation experience here and I can safely say that, on average, our (both Indian and Pakistani actually) armies need officers to do what the US Army does with NCOs. You simply cannot rely on our enlisted men to carry out tasks competently and efficiently (with some honorable exceptions, of course) and so the personality, character, competence and ability of the junior officer assumes a level of importance that has no paralell in Western armies. Whether this is because our men are basically illiterate or the way they are trained (memorize simple mechanical tasks), I don`t know. Both probably. However, to a good officer, they are loyal unto death. Unfortunately, good officers are hard to come by.

Stuka/Feroke/Urstruly #181: Interesting article, Stuka. Becomes even more credible, since it was written by an Indian. It is good to see both sides of the story.

I generally agree with Urstruly’s assessment of the Army-civilian relationship, with a few differences. I think Pakistanis are generally democratic in nature. However, they have very little faith in the democratic leaders of the moment, and are thus equally cynical towards both the Army leadership and the civilian leadership. Now they give economic progress more importance than anything else, amongst the middle-class and lower middle-class groups. And, “fear of mullah,” the biggest importance, amongst the upper-class groups (Chowk crowd).

The event that could act as a catalyst for getting rid of Army in politics, will be one of the following, in my opinion:

- A lower class revolution, combined with a religious ideological revolution, led by the maulvis
- A middle class revolution (if the economy goes down the drain, under the Army), led by an Altaf Hussain type figure, who has appeal across the urban populace of the country, and not just within one ethnicity

For the above to happen, a situation would have to occur, where the economy stays in the doldrums under the Army. Or if the world-wide, “us vs. them” war gains intensity within Pakistan, to uncontrollable levels. Other than that I really cannot see the people rising up in the street to bring back BB or NS type figures any longer. One only gets one chance to get the people to, “rise up.” BB and NS have had their chances and blown it. Perhaps PPP and PML, under completely new leadership, would get that chance. I doubt anyone would support the Army either, if it were the same General coming in, again and again. The Army has a new face at the helm, every time. And I think Pakistanis are willing to give each new face, about three years – be it from the Army or the civilian ranks.

Regarding the rise of Generals from Colonels. The Pakistan Army is very competent up to the level of Colonels. No doubt about it. Specifically at the level of NCOs, JCOs, Airmen, Sailors etc., i.e. enlisted ranks. They are loyal, dedicated, patriotic, and professional and have always performed well. They are also very highly respected in Pakistan, across the spectrum. I say this through personal experience. As well as through international surveys. They, along with Israel, India and USA, were ranked as the highest respected military, by their citizens, in the world. BB, NS, various editors, commentators etc. will never say anything negative about the Pakistani sapahi, jawan, fighter pilot etc. As a Lieutenant, I got nothing but respect, from the taxi drivers, shopkeepers, etc. The only groups that kind of looked down upon my profession, were the wealthy crowd (quite a few on Chowk), who considered the military, a profession below them, since, it is now very middle and lower middle class profession.

The problem starts, at the ranks of Brigadier and above, as FerozeK has correctly pointed out. The issues related to involvement in politics have been discussed. However, there are professional issues within their own profession of arms also, which have nothing to do with politics. The PAF and Navy, who do not get involved in Martial Laws, face these issues of incompetence, as well.

However, I don`t think the problems are because, “levels of intergration into the social and political ethos of the military officer corps and had very little to do with your professional skills.” Quite the contrary. The Pakistan military is actually a big meritocracy. Some of the individuals who have not been promoted may disagree, but statistics support it as a meritocracy.

The individuals, who graduate at the top of their class as cadets, generally become Generals. If you take a look at the previous Chiefs of the PAF, every single one was at the top of his class, in everything, from the age of 20 till 55. The top positions in the PAF are – going abroad as a cadet, flying the top aircraft (F-104, F-16), commanding an F-16 sqn, going abroad for staff courses, commanding PAF base Sargodha or Masroor, becoming head of Operations at the HQ, and then Chief. Basically every single Chief has followed this line. And they generally have a good record, fighting in wars also.

In the other branches, I don’t have all the details. But generally it is the same. All the candidates for Chiefs seem to be at the top in their cadet and staff courses. Ali Quli Khan, Asif Nawaz, Ayub Khan, Musharraf, Jehangir Karamat, etc., topped their local courses and all went abroad for cadet and staff courses.

One can argue that they are the most competent, amongst a group of incompetents, but that is a different debate. Within their groups, people generally rise on merit, up to the rank of Lt. Gen. After that, it is totally a political appt., depending on whom the PM and President like. In fact, any time this tradition has been broken by the politicians, it has harmed the politicians, themselves. Bhutto appointed Zia, against tradition, and look what happened. Nawaz Sharif tried to appoint someone, who was from his bradiri, but wasn’t in line for the position of COAS, and another coup occurred. Not quite democratic, but a good indication that merit counts.

The general trend is that the guys, who graduate at the top of their class as cadets, either rebel early on and leave the military, or they die performing their duties in wars or during peace times. Or they become Generals.

So, it is meritocracy, all the way, till Lt. General (with some politics thrown in, but they are not the deciding factor). The riffraff generally get washed out by the rank of Brigadier. Why do they Generals still show so much incompetence, even if they were at the top of their classes throughout their careers? In civilian affairs, because they don’t know how to run civilian enterprises, since they are not trained for that. In military affairs, due to various reasons (lack of exposure, lack of education of command branches, overconfidence etc.) which can be discussed in a later reply.

never ever let free and fair elections to happen in Pakistan ever again; keep the politicians corrupt and intimidated; and never let civilians take charge of their affairs above union council level; keep bureaucracy corrupt; keep courts corrupt; and let police lose.


Oh! I be damned! Tonight is the night of power! I request all my brothers to pray tonight that the army falls in no time!!! THe angels would listen!! Pray Pray!!!

re: BJP`s evolving political ideology
Time was when it was feared that a HIndu nationalistic party like BJP would be anti-muslim. It looks like BJP`s political brass is evolving a new strategy, where hobnobbing with the Arab world is not a sin. Latest visit of ABV to Syria is a case in point.
Romairs of the Chowk may take note.

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=321523

Excerpts:

1. ``One of the surprises that the Vajpayee administration has thrown at the diplomatic corps in Delhi is its ability to deal with Muslims of all hues and establish strategic ties with them. Be it secular Turkey or fundamentalist Iran, secular Malaysia or moderately Islamic Indonesia, India has not had difficulty in establishing and strengthening close strategic ties. Vajpayee and even Deputy Prime Minister Lal Krishan Advani have traveled to a number of Muslim countries promoting India`s traditional ties with them. And so have Sinha and Fernandes, among other senior ministers. ``

The author goes on to pose a question and try to answer it:

``What has happened in the last year to bring about this metamorphosis in BJP leaders` mindset? Until last year they were pursuing a policy dictated by their political philosophy - wary of China and the Muslim world, they were simply kowtowing the West.

I do not presume to know the answer. But I can hazard a guess. What may have apprised them of the reality of the situation and expunged the influence of ideology is the world`s reactions to the events in Gujarat. About 2,000 Muslims were killed and a 100,000 rendered homeless, the whole of central Gujarat cleansed of their presence, following the killing of 59 Hindus in a train compartment that was burned down, presumably by Muslims. From all accounts these anti-Muslim massacres were either organized, or at least encouraged by the BJP government of Gujarat.

This was the first large-scale mass murder in India in the age of electronic media and human rights activists. Word and images wend around and the world came to know of it. A strange thing happened. From the RSS point of view, neither China nor a single Muslim country protested. BJP politicians had to face a lot of flak. But all of it came from the West, either European governments or Western and Third World liberals trained in the West.

This may have shattered in the Hindutva mind the myth of a Muslim ummah, a world Muslim community. This myth had persisted in their mind against all evidence to the contrary presented to them by scholars from around the world. This may have also removed from their minds the fear of a clash between an alliance of Islamic and Chinese civilizations on the one hand ranged against the Hindu and Judeo-Christian civilizations on the other. If this is indeed what has happened, Gujarat may well have served a good purpose. Good can indeed come out of evil too.``

A fascinating article. Totally debunks the myth of BJP as a fascist or anti-muslim party. Politicians finally have to change with evolving times and do what is in national interest.
Contrast this fine tuning of foreign policy by BJP with Musharraf`s tunnel vision policy of not seeing anything beyond Kashmir. I always thought Mushy was the most pathetic human excrement in existence today and he proves that again and again.
Sridhar

re: Stuka # 181

I read that article.

One has to remember that the command structure in the Pakistan army tends to stagnate above the level of colonels. The progression to a general`s star in the Pakistani army was, (is based) based on your levels of intergration into the social and political ethos of the military officer corps and had very little to do with your professional skills. Pakistani army has very able colonels, and Lt.Colonels and a good supply of regimental and company and battlion officers. Niazi was more likely a company commander on the Burma front. There is no doubt on the lower levels, Pakistani army will fight; but it is the upper leadership of the Pakistan army that shows a disdain for fighting.

Overall, it was an interesting article and as more and more people, both Indian and Pakistani veterans, write about the wars, the truth is coming out and that is good. 40 years or 30 years later, it makes no difference who won or lost, but it makes a difference between believing a myth and understanding the truth.

Ciao

LESSONS LEARNED

Stuka # 181

A good article but needs a little record setting. I do not agree with Bose`s contention that Pak Army i.e. POWs were not received very well in Pakistan. It is not true. The POWs were received with open arms by the general public who went to Wagha to welcome them with garlands and all. The nation did not even question for once about their competence and bravery. There is and there was ageneral concensus among the general public at the time and now that the soldiers fought well against all odds and they delivered what is humanly possible. However, nation is not very kind, and rightfully so, towards top military brass of the time and the politicians. Bhutto did a very commendable job by building bridges between the nation and its army but army repaid his kindness by hanging him. Since Army has been controlling media and freedom of expression since begining it has successfully shifted the blame to ``trecherous Bengalis`` and ``corrupt politicians``, and ``Bhutto`` only.

The matter is very simple. Yahya Khan`s biggest mistake was that he held the most fair elections in the history of Pakistan whereas all he wanted was to secure his presidency while finding a Jamali for himself - and he found not one but two Jamalis - Bhutto & Mujib. Whereas Bhutto readily accepted to play his patsy, Mujib did not. Not that Mujib did not want to but he couldn`t because his electorate was already simmering with anti-millitary feelings and wanted to get rid of military even at the cost of separation. I think Yahya could eventually have made a deal with Mujib but Bhutto always got in the way. Bhuttos solution i.e. ``You there, we here`` was not acceptable to Mujib because of the pressures from his electorate and he did not want to appear to be too concedeing to his electorate. So ultimately the talks broke down.

The only entity who has learned any lessons from this whole debacle is the Pak Army contrary to the popular beleif. The army devised its undeclared doctrine since then which goes like this ``never ever let free and fair elections to happen in Pakistan ever again; keep the politicians corrupt and intimidated; and never let civilians take charge of their affairs above union council level; keep bureaucracy corrupt; keep courts corrupt; and let police lose`` . Pak Army has religiously followed this doctrine since they won the political power back from civilians in 1977 after deposing Bhutto and later hanging him. Since then, Zia came into power and he chose his hand picked Jamali who was Jonejo. Army through ISI meddelled in all elections since then. And now Mushsraf has his own Jamali who is the front man of mob behind him. People of Pakistan are democratic by nature otherwise why would dictators bother to play this tamasha of ``front man democracy`` time and again. I don`t know what, but something will trigger and detonate what is simmering in the civilian pressure cooker for so long. And I am pretty sure that it ain`t gonna be a repeat of Georgia.

Thanks ahmadzai.

By the way, moonh khol hi do.

While there are some postings considered as ``punishment`` postings by bureaucrats and judges, like Bihar, Chambal valley etc, what you state is wrong. The bureaucracy works at 2 levels. One is the central bureaucracy for which candidates are selected through the Union Public Service Commission, and the state bureaucracy for which candidates are selected through the state`s Public Service Commission. So someone who got through the state bureaucracy can`t be sent to anopther state. At the central level, people aren`t posted according to their origins.

In fact, my hometown Pune, has not had a local Municipal Commissioner, District Magistrate, Income tax commissioner or even Police commissioner for as long as I can remember. And it is prosperous and peaceful town with no mafia or communal trouble, so it is not a punishment posting either.

Not saying that Indian bureaucracy is a paragon of honesty and efficiency, far from it. The concept of punishment postings and reward postings is there, but it does not have anything to do with your origins. Even a Bihari will consider Bihar as punishment posting

fountainheader:

Pakistan`s economic performance:

This is in response to your query to Romair.

I have produced many websites on Chowk showing improved performance, including once during my discussion with Mantolives.

An honest evaluation of Pakistan`s economy appears here:

http://www.dawn.com/2003/11/23/top6.htm

ballukhan at # 185:

``The guy has no idea about Indian buraucracy!!!! What propaganda? I am amazed? ``

Read my intro. Note that I am a traveler. Maira Moon mutt khulwana.

But for your own information as a beginning, do read the two URLs I have listed in one of my previous posts.

:-)

Maula Jat. Jat in London. Jeera Blade. Mirza, Majnu tay Ranjha. Jat, Gujjar tay Nat.

All classics, by the way.

Haha, OK. :)

Love their names, remind me of Johar-Mehmood or Govinda ``classics``. By the way, are all these movies Punjabi, or some are urdu?

As I stated earlier, Pakistanis are not interested in getting all of Kashmir. I say this as someone who is from Kashmir. Look at any survey in Pakistan. Even the govt. repeatedly says self-determination for Kashmiris. This could result in Kashmir joining Pakistan, India, or independence.

OK, two things. ``Pakistanis`` are not interested in getting all of Kashmir, is what you claim based on opinion polls. Even if we do accept this, it is the wish of the common people, and NOT the army or the government.

And I am pretty sure that the government of Pakistan`s official position is still ``we want a plebiscite, 1947 style``, which means only 2 options - join india or join pakistan. no option of independence. yes, many pakistanis may wish to give kashmir independence from both india and pak, but the official government demand is still ``self determination with 2 options - india or pakistan``. in fact this has been a major cause of factionalism in the hurriyat. the geelani faction is pro-pakistan and the lone-mirwaiz faction is pro-azaadi. abdul ghani lone was gunned down by pakistanis. hiw own son, came on BBC saying ``pakistanis killed my father``. are you telling me that pakistani army has been pumping so much money and manpower into kashmir just to let it be ``azaad``? puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeez. exactly who here was born yesterday?

another thing is if the pakistani establishment did not want ``all of kashmir`` they would have lapped up the Chenab Formula. as mentioned in an article in Friday times(drat why dont they have archives) a couple of month back by Khalis Hasan, the Chenab Formula is a plan that would give Pakistan 80% of the land of the Kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir, leaving India with only parts of Ladakh and Jammu. The valley would go to Pakistan. As Hasan wrote, the chenab formula itself is a big dream because India simply would not agree to it. Yet, at 80%, it is the best deal that could even be realistically mentioned in negotiations. And yet, Sikandar Hayat Khan was disqualified by the High Court for endorsing this formula.

This is from the daily Jang 16 September 2003

Sikandar’s disqualification reference

MUZAFFARABAD: The AJK High Court has set up a full bench for the preliminary hearing of constitutional writ petition field by opposition leader in AJK Legislative Assembly Barrister Sultan Mehmood Chaudhry regarding disqualification of AJK Prime Minister Sikandar Hayat on his comments about Chenab Formula dealing with Kashmir dispute. Kh. Atta Ullah Chak represented the petitioner while AJK Advocate General presented on behalf of the other side. The AJK Chief Justice Syed Manzoor Husain Gilani after hearing both sides remarked that ``In view of the nature of constitutional points taken up in the petition it should be placed before the full court on September 29, 2003.`` According to the detail earlier the AJK Opposition leader had filed a reference with the AJK Speaker Sardar Siab Khalid for the disqualification of AJK Premier Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan for his statement regarding Chenab Formula about the proposed solution of Kashmir dispute, which the Speaker had rejected. Meanwhile the opposition leader Sultan Mehmood filed a writ petition with AJK High court requesting the Court for disqualification of the Premier Sikandar Hayat Khan pleading that by supporting the Chenab Formula the AJK premier has clearly deviated from our principle stand on Kashmir and violated the AJK constitution under which he (the premier) had taken the oath that as prime minister he would strictly adherent to the ideology of accession to Pakistan.


You said

The ones fighting in Kashmir, are only interested in Kashmir.

This is rich, this is really really rich. The Kashmiri terrorists from J&K might be interested only in that. But you have conveniently ignored the example of Sheikh Omar saeed who was first involved in kidnapping of tourists in kashmir, then was arrested by the Indians, released with Masood Azhar during the kandahar hijacking, transfered money to Moahammad Atta of 9/11 fame, killed Daniel Pearl..... Come on, everyone, even your own papers have accepted the link between Kashmir and Al Qaeda. Let me give you one more example. John Walker Lindh, the American taliban, fought in kashmir. The Virginia Terror network guys, fought in Kashmir.

While someone like Syed Salahuddin and his Hizbul maybe Kashmir-centric, the Jaish, Lashkar, Markaz et al have bigger designs. their own websites say so, for god`s sake. I have some coffee here in case you want to smell it.

You know, in my opinion the biggest problem that Pakistan faces with keeping the terror tap on in kashmir is that those guys are going to want to do more. Because most of them (not all) are driven not by nationalistic sentiments, but religious ones. They are fighting(they think) the cause of Islam and not kashmir. kashmir is just one step. their bigger targets are going to be Israel and America. So America did not mind Pakistan funding Khalistani terrorists, cos they would hurt only India, but it will certainly mind the jehadis in kashmir.

And your surveys show that. the pakistani ``people`` are not obsessed enough with the cause of Kashmir to die for it. But throw in the islamic jehad angle, with promises of jannat, and allah`s mercy, and a lot of people are willing to do it. If pakistan can divorce religion from the roxy war it has launched on india, it will really be more effective. Think about it.

There was an interview on News Night in Pakistan, where the BJP minister was being interviewed. The interviewer showed a copy of the text of the original Agra agreement to the minister, and asked whether she wanted to debate it. She refused. He made the same points, and asked why it had been cancelled after the BJP had agreed to it. She had no answer.

Could you point out why the original agreement was cancelled?


I saw the interview myself, and I dont see how the breakfast meeting reason is justified by it. In fact your comment was the first time I have ever heard anyone mention the breakfast as a reason. Pakistanis have alleged that the hawks like Advani scuttled the talks because vajpayee agreed to drop the issue of ``cross border terrorism``, and they didnt like it. Indians say that it was scuttled because Musharraf agreed to address cross border terrorism in the draft but later changed his mind. I myself am not quite clear about it, but my opinion is that Vajpayee agreed to more concessions than the hawks wanted. Where does the breakfast come into picture?

The reason NS was removed was because he tried to fire Musharraf. Plain and simple. It was not a planned coup. Even the coup makers did not know what to do after the coup.

Are you saying that Nawaz`s fall had nothing to do with Kargil? This is something on which I have heard different versions from Pakistanis themselves. Some say Nawaz didn`t know about Kargil, or else he wouldnt have had the lahore meeting. Some say he knew but couldnt stop it. A very few say nawaz actually ordered Kargil (!!!). you people sort it out amongst yourselves.

The AgrSummit: An Engagement Fouled by Dr. Muni of the JNU. JNU-wallahs are acknowledged by pakistanis to be objective, hence I am pasting a few excerpts from the article.

He frankly confessed to the Indian editors outside the summit negotiations that for his very political survival in Pakistan, he cannot be seen to be diluting his position on Kashmir.

You see romair, Musharraf confessed that himself, on tape. I guess you think he is wrong, and he can dilute his position of Kashmir and still survive?

The Pakistani armed forces see this territorial gain in the valley as a part of avenging its defeat of 1971 and a requirement of its self-created ``national identity`` vis-à-vis India. General Musharraf`s linking of Kargil conflict with 1971 in his breakfast talks with the Indian editors at Agra could be seen in this context. The post-summit statements made by him and his foreign minister in Islamabad indicate that accepting the word ``cross-border`` amounts to Pakistan giving sanctity to LOC that it does not want.

See what I mean? I am sure if we go to some chowk 2001 archives, we will find a hundred views about why the summit failed. I would love to see how many people blame the breakfast for it

#162 by ahmadzai on November 23, 2003 11:05am PT

``Also, remember that in India if a civil servant or a judge has to be penalized, his services are transferred to a state other than his original. This ensures his demise, because outside his own state, he is treated as a pariah....``

The guy has no idea about Indian buraucracy!!!! What propaganda? I am amazed?

SUb: Admiral Ahsan....

There were a number of notable Generals who oopposed West Pakistani Policies in Bangladesh. Vice-Admiral Ahsan was prominent amongst those. He was soon removed from office. Even Lt Gen Saihbzada Yakoob Ali khan - despite his earlier saber-rattling as part of the Insurgency planning came to see things differently once posted GOC - Eastern Command - He was subsequently demoted to Maj-Gen and placed under house arrest in West Pakistan during the duration of the 71 war. It was Zia ul Haq who later rehabilitated him as Foreign minister and restored his rank to Lt-Gen ( post Retirement)......

Of course Gen Tikka Khan a la ``Butcher of Dacca`` was later promoted by Bhutto to Chief of staff ( or Cinc C i am not sure wheteher Cin C was abolished in the 70`s) and later as Governor of Punjab. there were many even in the Lahore gentry that avoided this man like the plague.... - He was a personal and professional digrace - Nothing more than a glorified subaltern....

there were other Graduates of Bangladesh that were later to lead insurgency operations in Baluchistan - Sind and karachi ...

Lt Gen Jehanzeb Arbab ( Later a corrupt Gov of Sind) - is listed is the Hammodur Rehman Report ha shaving been involved in looting and misappropriation of funds......


The infamous Naseerullah Babur ( another Bhutto protege)- who reportedly as a Captain deserted his post in bangladesh ( and later a POW) - was involved in the bloody repression of the MQM in Karachi where thousands of non-political civilians came in the cross fire. He used to proudly boast as being the Father of the Taliban as well. I hope they haul his rotten ass to Guantanomo......



THe HamoodurRehman report is online at
http://www.dawn.com/events/14aug2000/report/report.htm

It describes quite vividly and unrevocably the complete corruption of Command and Control - with all the guilty parties - IT also describes in shocking detail - Dereliction of duty, and in some cases abandonment of positions by two star and one star generals......


As for Adm Mansoor ul Haq - it is alittle known fact that he is a Bhutto too.... His mother was Bhutto Sr`s sister who was married off to a local Clan in SOuthern Punjab.....

IT is also well known that most Zia protege`s from Gen Fazle Haq the drug Baron Gov of NWFP during Zia`s tenure, to GEn AKthar Abdur Rehman ( His son) , Gen Aslam beg, and Gen Zia ( through his son ... were dollar bilionaires exposed by Musharraf during his vaunted anti-corruption drive......

Interesting and Timely article from the Daily Times:



Op-ed: The courageous Pak army stand on the eastern front —Sarmila Bose

There is much for Pakistan to come to terms with what happened in 1971. But the answers don’t lie in unthinking vilification of the fighting men who performed so well in the war against such heavy odds in defence of the national policy. Rather, in failing to honour them, the nation dishonours itself

My introduction to international politics was 1971, as a schoolgirl in Calcutta. Many images from that year are still etched in my mind, but the culminating one was the photo on Ramna racecourse of two men sitting at a table — the smart, turbaned Sikh, ‘our’ war-hero, Jagjit Singh Aurora, and the large man in a beret, A A K Niazi, commander of the other side, signing the instrument of surrender.

Nearly a generation later, a chance interview for the BBC with Lt Gen. Aurora took me back to 1971. The interview was not about 1971, but about injustices suffered by Sikhs at the hands of the state General Aurora had served. I thought he was a bigger hero for what he had to say then. That view was reinforced as I read — with incredulity — the disparaging remarks by other Indian officers about him, and each other, in their books. If this is what happened to the winning commander, I wondered what had happened to the other man in the photo. The result was a revelation.

It turns out that Gene