Founding Mothers

Romair...

Read some history...

The forgiveness is part of the `Qisas and Diyat` Ordinance... which was enacted by Zia...
Amazingly he witheld its implementation until Bhutto was hanged...


Therefore my comment that Islam has made murder a tort in Pakistan and not a crime.

Rafay_Alam: Thanks for the info.

Some more questions, if you don`t mind, since you are a legal expert.

Is this forgiveness by next of kin law part of the Shariat Law or the normal law? Also, how does Shariah law and normal law in Pakistan connect with each other?

And how are the Shariah judges selected? What qualifications do they need? In the early to mid 80s, there used to be an officer of Lt. Col. rank at our station, who was an Islamiat teacher/motivation officer. The later is a category in the military also, where apparently some religiously qualified individuals can go. On the whole, it is not a very successful career path, and one rarely goes beyond Lt. Col.,if that high. And one remains pretty much unknown.

One fine day, in the early 90s, I was at a military hospital, when I see this big black car, with a chauffer, pull up, with some sort of a national flag. A guy steps out of the back seat, in a sherwani. The guy is a Shariah court judge. He looked familiar. It turns out, he was the same guy, who just ten years ago, was an unknown Lt. Col. Now he was probably the same seniority or higher than a Chief of Staff.

Romiar # 46:

You are correct. Even if the murder of a girl in the name of honor is lodged as an FIR, there is nothing stopping say, the girl`s parents would be able to forgive the accused.

I know that India faced a crises in relation to Dowry Deaths (or stove deaths, as they were known) in the 80s. This resulted in a change to the Indian Penal Code. Now, if memory serves me correctly, if a newly married woman dies in unnatural circumstances within the first 7 years of her marriage, the burden of proving that they did not murder her falls upon the woman`s husband or in-laws.

I know it sounds a bit harsh. Especially shifting the presumption of proof. But the English concept of innocent until proven guilty in one of many possible burdens of truth. For example, in the French Civil System, an accused is guilty until he proves his innocence.

I think we need something like the amended Indian Penal Code here in Pakistan. Sherry Rehman`s Women`s Empowerment Bill, 2003 - now before the National Assembly as a private member`s bill - has such a clause (where the burden to prove innocence is moved to the girl`s family if there is suspicion of murder in the name of honor). I know that such a bill may not have an effect in the villages and hamlets of Pakistan - where fuedal law still reigns supreme - but at least it`s a step in the right direction.

Rafay Alam

Pak reality,

Four pakistani brothers have been convicted in australia for gang rape, and their defence, they are unaware of the aussie legal system, as they are from NWFP of pakistan. They naturally assumed that the laws are same. Their father, a doctor has slammed the conviction as attack on islam.

Obviously the brothers could have killed the girls and called it honour killing. The pak apologists like dost mitter beleve that lahore is tribal area, samia sarwars mother is a doctor and father a prominant business man in lahore, and all that happened in the killing of samia sarwar was the application of tribal law. It is interesting to note that there are honour killing supporters every where and it should be the punjabi commonality that tahmed talks about.

Romair...

Nobody is blaming the mullahs.. but the honor killing is prevalent in NWFP also.

You make an interesting point about kin and close relatives being forgiven by the `wali`... this is because Islam has pervaded into the legal code. It is through Qisas and Diyat ordinance I believe....

Because of Islam and Islamic law ... Murder is a tort in Pakistan and not a crime... tsk tsk...

What say you?

-YLH

Rafay_Alam:

A legal question:

Don`t honor killing offenders get acquited, because they are usually a close relative of the viticm. And the victim is always killed with the consent of the next of kin. And according to some law, the next of kin has the right to forgive the killer. For example, the mother kills her daughter and the father forgives the mother, since they were both in it together.

Honor killings are, generally, a feudal custom. For some reason, the maulvis keep getting all the blame for them. They are most prominent in the areas ruled by parties like PPP and PML and their stallwarts. There is more chance of an honor killing occuring in the constituency of Amin Fahim (head of PPP) or Jamali (PML Prime Minister) that in the constituency of Qazi Hussain (head of Jamaat-i-Islami).

rafay

I was about mention grave and sudden provocation but I refrained from it so as to not confuse the issue...

The question is that would grave and sudden provocation be a defence... if a person was gravely and suddenly provoked on Monday and committed the murder on Tuesday?

And can a person be gravely and suddenly provoked in matters pertaining to relations other than wife? sister , mother? cousin?

rafay_alam:
The situation you describe is what I thought was happening; in other words, the society is so conditioned to certain lawless behaviour that the police wont even register FIRs. This is no different from the police not registering any case against murderers in case of communal riots.

Dost Mittar #39

You are right to say that the practice of Honor Killings are, in fact, fuedal custom. The Pak Penal Code recognizes murder as an offence, but also recognizes that self-defence and grave and sudden provacation are arguments which may mitigate against sentence, if not provide a water-tight defence. When argued in Court, an honor killing defence will have to prove that the murderer was in the grips of some sort of grave and sudden provacation. Usually catching one`s spouse, sister or mother in a ``compromising position`` will suffice. However, the Courts do not recognize the defence when there are elements of premeditated murder present (like buying a gun and waiting a week).

But Honor Killings go beyond the law. To be preceise, they fall below the threshold of the law. As far as an SHO posted, say, in Vehari, is concerned when a complaint of murder comes to him is whether it was ``justified`` or not. It`s a sad fact, but Pakistani men seem to think killing a woman who was, in any way, outside certain prescribed social norms (seen in the presence of a man) is totally justified. This is perhaps why so many honor killings are never reported. They never get past the Police Station`s doors.

Regards,
Rafay Alam

Re Syed Ahmad # 33

Thanks for the insight. I think you are correct.

I may reques you for some more information on this in the future.

Best regards,
Rafay Alam

Here is an important bit of info I missed

WOMAN PRESIDES
over parliament session

March 18 Begum Jehanara Shanawaz, the first woman member of former All India Muslim League and a senior parliamentarian, becomes the first Asian woman to preside over a parliament session

Jay,

Dost Mittar has pointed out something very important.

Sections 300-330 deal with offences against the human body... there is nothing that exempts honor killing as such.

Jay:
Are you sure that the so-called honour killing is not a crime in Pakistan and not a crime that goes unpunished? I am saying this because, as far as I know, murder is a capital offense in Pakistan. Is there a special clause in the Pakistan criminal code which exempts honour killing from the provision of the criminal act relating to murder? If not, is it simply not a case of the tribal/clan codes taking precedence over the law of the land.

Manto/ rafay

The importance of samia sarwar case is that honour killing is not a crime in pakistan, no case was filed by the police simply because no crime has been committed. There is no other country other than some muslim countries in the middle east where this happens. YLH, the difference is significant because people like you cannot make the distinction between honor killing being not a crime in pakistan. For you this legitimacy is nothing killing is nothing, you have no intention and desire to make killing a crime in pakistan simply because it is per the book. Take it from me YLH, killing is a crime in india while killing a woman in pakistan is not, as long as it is termed as honour killing, so declared by a mullah.

rafay,

I am posting from memeory, and it was reported that the next day asma was arretsed for leading samia from the moral path. I do know that it was not a bill to criminalise honour killing, it was juat a resolution to condemn it, but it is significant that the senators asserted that honour killing is OK by not passing the resolution.

mog

``were all ladies when they these started working on indian, pakistan forming, please say you thank``

Yes .... thankyou . How can a child forget the womb that bore it.

Ras,

Thankyou for your wishes.... you haven`t met me, but you met my better half :) and she thinks very highly of you. As a bullwark of the Pakistani American community in the bay area/North Calfornia you are well known even in Pakistan. And it is an honor to ge complimented by you so often.

Hope youcan come to Karachi/Lahore around the 21st/24th ....

-YLH

YLH & Manto,

we have not met, but its good to know you just the same.

Your articles sure are refreshingly different and on the fearless side so one

has to congratulate you on your honesty.

Have we thought of how we have regressed from 1947 to today?

I wonder if women will be allowed to go and replace flags now as they

have done in the past?

I hope that more people like you and your future wife will continue to come forward and

take up the cause of Pakistan.


But please be cautious as well as optimistic.


Best of luck to both of you


Ras H. siddiqui