Founding Mothers

the photograph of the women in Mr Yasser Hamdani`s article appears to be Noor us Sabah Begum.
The image appears to be the same women as the one on the stamp of Noor Us Saba published in 2002 in the series Tehrik e Pakistan ki Mujahid
Can you help verify this please?

Thank you for letting me on your site.
I read the debate on the founding mothers etc.
I have an urgent question. Can someone help in answering this.
Does anyone know about Noor us Sabah Begum?. She has appeared on a stamp of Pakistan published in 2002 as one of the Tehrik e Pakistan ke Mujahid series.
We have a copy of an interview taken before her death in 1978 by Begum Khurshid Mirza wher she talks of meeting the Quaid and presenting a check of a sum colllected. She was one of the women arrested in Lahore in the Anti Khizar Hyat movement.
There were many such unknown and unsung men and women who did their bit and no one remembers.
Does anyone know of her?
Iwould be grateful for an urgent reply.
Thanks a million

Rafay at # 62:

I would like to thank you for two great posts, especially # 59 proves that I am rightly a pro-Musharraf Chowky :-)

The law you have produced does not indicate that if a women commits suicide, her in-laws would automatically be considered guilty i.e. guilty until proven innocent. The laws only reflect penalty for committing acts of cruelty that lead to committing suicide by women or aiding and abetting suicide of women. I expect that same law would be existent in Pakistan on suicide incidents of women in their hosueholds. Suicide is not honor killing. You are treating both as same.

On honor killing in Pakistan you are right though.

The BD and SL laws, if I remember correctly, go by the rule - guilty until proven innocent.

Rafay

Apologies accepted.

Fascinating debate about honor killing/legal status. Definitely better than debating pointlessly with the self proclaimed defender of Madar-e-millat`s honor about why Fatima Jinnah was not included in the list above.

Syed Ahmed,

If mine is `teenage enthusiasm` yours must be the bitterness of a 90 year old.

Dear sir, if you care to note... You were called a bozo, because you have acted like one. You posted the same post 4 times... and this is not the first time on the board. You have done this atleast three other times. Now you are lying again... has your `browser configuration` miraculously fixed all of a sudden?

My dear friend you have established nothing, except that you are not very well read. Once again I must suggest two books of some renown on the subject (unlike you I am not fond grade 3 pakistan studies propaganda)

1) Rise of Feminism amongst Indian Muslim women 1920-1947 by Azra Asghar Ali (Oxford Millenium series)

2) From Purdah to Parliament by Shaista Ikramullah


The facts are:


I spoke of independent contribution to history, and not whether they were related to important men or not.

1) Jahanara Shahnawaz (who you believe to be young in 1940s) was amongst the 3 women
party touring England in the 1930s calling for the separate electorates for women for the emancipation of women of India... though she was the daughter of an important man, her achievements far eclipsed that of her family`s. By 1942 she had enough weight to be invited to the Viceroy`s war council, the acceptance of which led to her temporary ouster from the league. She also looms large as the first woman Muslim Leaguer, and the first asian woman to preside over a parliamentary session. Her contribution to Family laws debate, and her role in the parliament is well documented.

Q: Please inform me where Fatima Jinnah (before her brief but bold political campaign) made such a contribution. She emerges as a dutiful and dedicated sister of Jinnah. Raana Liaqat Ali`s primary claim to fame is her martyred husband.... though she played an important part in pakistani politics later.... what about Bi Ama?

An analogy could be drawn... thus that Turks were to abandon the memory of Halide Edib, their leading independence heroin, writer, poet and philosopher and instead eulogize Ataturk`s mother, sister, wife and daughter. I guess Turks are not as stupid as some other people.

2) Shaista Ikramullah was amongst the leading women of her times. Her contribution to feminism is discussed in Azra Asghar Ali`s book. In fact she thought so highly of this woman that Shaisata Ikram ullah has her picture on the cover of the book. She was the first Muslim woman PhD as I point out in my article, one of the two women in the first constituent assembly, a well renowned writer, she, unlike fatima Jinnah or raana liaqat ali, was part of the league central working committee... your claim that she was dependent because of her bureaucrat husband... and thus should not qualify in this list ... is laughable to say the least. Is her husband more famous than she is? Was he on the league working commitee? Was he a national leader? Was he in the Pakistan constituent assembly? Infact his contribution may well be that he was Shaista`s dutiful and supportive husband.


3) Had you bothered to read my post... I had quoted from `Nazaria Pakistan foundation` website ... about Sughra apa aka Fatima Sughra Begum... the very fact that you will call that `my word` or ` my immediate family members` shows that you are an intellectually dishonest human being.

Here is that entire post ``Was it Sughra Apa or Lady Hidayatullah?


Maybe to some brilliant scholars ‘relative obscurity and poverty’ means beggar woman… but to me it just meant that Sughra Apa was not living in opulent surroundings like the socialite wife of Hidayatullah…

Since Syed Ahmed is doing some cutting and pasting job…here is what I found on Nazaria-e-Pakistan foundation … While Sughra Hidayat Ullah (who was married to Sir Hidayatullah in 1919) was indeed present at the agitation, the woman I was talking about was also Sughra … she was known as Fatima Sughra begum … she was the ONE who hoisted the flag atop the secretariat. The nazaria Pakistan foundation makes that very clear.

Since Syed Ahmed’s research is limited to one website sadly…. There is no way he would know this.

http://www.nazariapak.info/ShowTopics.asp?TopicCode=14&CatCode=6

My mistake is simply not to write Sughra apa’s complete name which is Fatima Sughra …

Syed Ahmed’s favorite website is way off on facts… it has taken Sughra Apa’s picture and claimed that this is Lady Hidayatullah … http://www.storyofpakistan.com/person.asp?perid=P081 if you look at the picture she is holding the League flag… Sughra Apa’s picture was taken in 1947… meanwhile Lady Hidayatullah was born in 1904… Does the woman in the picture look like she is 43 years old?

It is a well known fact that Sughra Apa, and not Hidayatullah’s wife, hoisted the flag on the secretariat building….

I wonder who is altering facts to fit their agenda now? Nothing riles me up more than an ignorant (note IGNORANT) distortion of History.
No wonder ‘all Pakistanis are laughing hysterically’ after reading half of syed ahmed’s posts… as per his own admission. }

---

In re my post # 59:

It seems that sigalph235 has provided us with the details on the selection process for the Shariat Bench.

So I suppose I`ll have to discuss the Indian law with you. But first, let me point out the the Indian problem was dealing with dowry deaths, not honor killings (two completely different things, although both, I think, related to property). Dowry deaths were kept away from the police by describing them as suicides. But what is interesting to note is how the Indians tackled with the matter. First, they actually define what cruelty is (as a test, try defining honor in honor killing). Then they go about changing the presumptions of law. But don`t let me get ahead of myself. Here is the relevant law:

s. 498-A Indian Penal Code, 1860. Husband or relative of a husband subjecting her to cruelty.- Whoever, being the husband or the relative of the husband of a woman, subjects such woman to cruelty shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to a fine.
Explanation: - For the purposes of this section, ‘cruelty’ means –
(a) any willful conduct which is of the nature as is likely to drive the woman to commit suicide or to cause grave injury or danger to life, limb or health (whether mental of physical) of the woman; or
(b) harassment of the woman where such harassment is with a view to coercing her or any other person related to her to meet any unlawful demand for property or valuable security or is on account of failure by her or any other persons related to her to meet such demand.

s. 113-A Indian Evidence Act, 1872. Presumption as to abetment of suicide by a married woman.- When the question is whether the commission of suicide by a woman had been abetted by her husband or any relative of her husband and it is shown that that she had committed suicide within a period of seven years from the date of her marriage and that her husband or such relative of her husband had subjected her to cruelty the court may presume, having regard to all the other circumstances of the case, that such suicide had been abetted by her husband or by such relative of the husband.
Explanation.- For the purposes of this section ‘cruelty’ shall have the same meaning as in s. 498-A of the Indian Penal Code, 1860.

regards,
Rafay Alam

Law on Shariat bench From the Constitution of Pakistan, Article 203


``The Court shall consist of not more than eight Muslim [ Judges ], including the [5][Chief Justice], to be appointed by the President.

(3) The Chief Justice shall be a person who is, or has been, or is qualified, to be, a Judge of the Supreme Court or who is or has been a permanent Judge of a High Court.

[6](3A) Of the Judges not more than four shall be persons each one of whom is, or has been, or is qualified to be, a Judge of a High Court and not more than three shall be ulema who are well- versed in Islamic law.``


Similarly, appeals can be heard only by a specially constituted Shariat Apellate Bench of the Supreme Court where two of the five members have to be ulema.

Re:sigalph

I do apologise about the multiple posts - something wrong with my
browser configuration...

Re:mantolives........

Excitement is good ....pejoratives bad..... calling me a moron or an idiot hardly advances your argument.. ( are you sure you from Lahore - not Sheikhupura :)) Rather it shows exasperation on your part...... and detracts from the point that your are trying to make...

As for your sugra apa - I can hardly take your word for it -

1. I will confirm your Sugra story from credible sources ( preferbably published by somebody other than you or somebody related to you ) and will respond and issue retraction if necessary....

Let`s see what I have established .....
MAntolives wrote ...

``These women are those whose contributions to the cause of Pakistan stood independent of their spouses, brothers or fathers. Therefore Fatima Jinnah, Raana Liaqat Ali, Viqarrunnisa Noon, and Begum Abida Sultan are not amongst them, despite the fact that they too have every right to be included in the founding mothers``

1. The women you included were as dependent on their spouses/siblings/parental patronage as those you choose to exclude..... Now if you had stated that these were ``your`` preferential founding mothers... I would not be arguing about it .....But your basic premise does not hold any water.....

2. Now for your Ms Sugra- Apa , - lets us assume that you are right - I have nothing against her - but her inclusion in national leaders is bit far fetched - particularly if nobody but you and your immediate family members have heard of her .......

3. Shaista Ikramullah, Jahan Ara Shanawaz, Tassaduque Hussain - were relatively young in the 40`s and consequently emerged as the second generation of the league`s women leaders...... you ignored several others but we will let it pass....

4. Lady Haroon ( Ala Nusrat Khatoon) - who is described by you as an regional leader...was actually a national figure, along with with Fatima Jinnah and Rana Liaquat Ali.....formed the senior rung of the Women`s Muslim League leadership....

5. Your inclusion of Sugra-Apa ( a unknown) , Mumtaz shahnawaz ( Actually she was a writer - I am not sure whar her contributions to the movement were) , Fatima Begum - on par with the others is a bit unfair ..... thatis like trying to portray Crispus Attuckus ( the African-american who died in the Boston Massacare- and of course he did more than plant a flag ) on par with Hamilton , Washington and Jefferson as the founding fathers of the United states.....

Baring your teenage enthusiasm - I would suggest a little more research and little less emotion in your articles.... lest your beome known as a writer of fables ( a la Hans Christian Anderson or Aesop ) when you wanted to become Heroditus or Pliny the elder..

Romair # 50:

I`ll check the law on the selection of Shariat Bench Judges. My limited knowledge does understand that the Bench comprises of a mix of judges of the High Courts and other experts in Shariah. I suppose the decision of who is and who is not an expert in Shariah is taken by the State. But I`ll figure the connections out and let you know the answer on another message board (this one will soon be off the main page, and it is already getting hot in here).

And Ahmadzai # 52:
I studied in University that the Indians had passed the law. I`ll check my notes and have a snoop around the internet. Again, I`ll let you know if anything crops up.

Meanwhile, on the topic of Honor Killings (although, much to Mantolives/YLH`s increasing fury, this detracts from his article - many apologies), here is today`s editorial from the Daily Times:

EDITORIAL: Thank you, General Musharraf, but...

Sometimes a benevolent dictatorship can achieve socially desired results more efficiently than a lumbering democracy of vested interests. A recent case of a classic ‘honour killing’ proves this point. According to press reports, a young woman by the name of Afshin, who ‘belonged’ to a landed Sahu family in district Khanewal of Punjab, was done to death by family patriarchs because she was alleged to have brought ‘dishonour’ to the clan by wanting to marry someone unacceptable to family elders. The death of the girl went un-remarked because there was no formal complainant — it was, said the family privately, an ‘internal’ matter. Hundreds of such cases go by default every year in this country for three main reasons: clever lawyers can frame the murder under the Hudood laws and get the murderers off lightly; our ‘culture’ is still shackled by many pre-Islamic and tribal notions of honour and there is no great societal abhorrence of such acts; powerful vested interests in the state are inclined to side with, rather than book, the culprits.

But this case is shaping up differently, at least so far. It is learnt that the matter was brought to the notice of General Pervez Musharraf and he promptly ordered the machinery of the state into action. The local big wigs of the area, including a federal minister, were ordered not to protect the influential family, the local administration and police were whipped into investigation, the grave of the victim was officially dug up and Afshin’s body was sent for a post mortem. Initial press reports say there are torture marks on the body and that she was probably strangulated to death or electrocuted. Family sources have until now claimed various things: that she had a heart attack; that she died of a mysterious illness, and so forth. While the results are awaited, the Sahu family is said to be running from pillar to post seeking legal and political protection. And then yesterday, we heard the good news that the girl’s father gave himself up to the police and confessed to the crime.

We see this as a case that will test General Musharraf’s resolve to bring ‘enlightened moderation’ to Pakistan. When the action was ordered by General Musharraf, international wire services and news agencies were quick to praise him. In fact, CNN had a ticker tape of General Musharraf’s order launching the inquiry running below its main stories of the day, which meant that tens of millions of people all over the world would have silently applauded Pakistan’s president for his humane and timely intervention. Indeed, by this gesture alone General Musharraf may have earned more international goodwill than all his statements against extremism so far. But this sort of thing cuts both ways. By the same token, if General Musharraf doesn’t personally make sure that the case is concluded on merit and becomes a powerful deterrent for all honour killings in the country, a great opportunity would have been lost to strike a blow for human rights and the cynics would be encouraged in accusing General Musharraf of political opportunism.

That is why it is important for General Pervez Musharraf to personally make sure, on a day to day basis if necessary, that the case is not waylaid or sabotaged midway through a combination of vested interests, police corruption, institutional lethargy and political sifarshis. Certainly, this lethal combination of social, political and legal practice has been responsible for subverting the course of justice in this country for decades. When will it end?

There are five centres of power in Punjab: the chief minister, the governor, the corps commanders, the IGP and the chief secretary. They must all singly and jointly be ordered to make sure that justice is not only done to the spirit of Afshin and the human rights struggle against honour killings but also seen by everyone at home and abroad to have been done.

Earlier this month, we had cause to be shamefaced and dismayed (Daily Times editorial, ‘National Assembly’s “honour”’). Mr M P Bhandara, MNA, tried to rustle up a resolution in our ‘great and democratic parliament’ against the uncivilised practice of honour killings that is totally alien to the enlightened and moderating vision of Islam. But he was faced with a stunning conspiracy of silence. First the Speaker of the Assembly tried to kill his resolution. When Mr Bhandara insisted, he was given the floor. But except for one woman member of parliament, he could not get any of our gallant defenders of justice and democracy in parliament to stand up and shout NO to honour killings. Finally, he was summoned by the Speaker to his chamber where some treasury MNAs told him to withdraw the resolution since it (resolution) went against their ‘code of honour’. It would be tragic if this great initiative by General Pervez Musharraf were to meet with the same fate. This is a classic case of what may be a small step for General Musharraf but could become a great leap for Pakistan. *

---

end quote.

I think Sethi hits a couple of points in the head here.

Best regards,
Rafay Alam

Chowk staff

Please take care of this bozo who is pointlessly flooding this board.

syed ahmed...

Stop flooding my board like a maniac who can`t prove his point through logic alone!

The fact is that your claims have been disproved. Instead of making tall claims like revisionism why don`t you point out actual points where you feel I have passed on my personal opinion ... the fact is that you can`t and it pisses you off even more.. You just can`t admit you were out of line with your so called `historical` perspective. That would after all be a manly thing to do.

I still haven`t seen you apologize for insulting Sughra Apa who is an icon of Lahore.

Typical is your previous response... instead of admitting that you were dead wrong about who put the flag there... you have started a tangential debate on `ethnocentric` bias eventhough in the very next post I admitted that Lady Hidayatullah was also in that rally, but she was not the famous young lady of about 20 who put the flag atop Lahore secretariat.

``Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history.... ``


Instead of barking it out repeatedly ... have the courtesy of pointing out exactly which articles are you talking about .... so that I can make amends next time. Or are you just lying out of teeth to save your own face???


-YLH

Syed Ahmed sahib

As much as your words are illuminating, must we have four times times the light?

rafay-alam at # 49:

``I know that India faced a crises in relation to Dowry Deaths (or stove deaths, as they were known) in the 80s. This resulted in a change to the Indian Penal Code. Now, if memory serves me correctly, if a newly married woman dies in unnatural circumstances within the first 7 years of her marriage, the burden of proving that they did not murder her falls upon the woman`s husband or in-laws. ``

Although this was mentioned once before by an Indian participant, I have my strong doubts whether this was passed as a law in India. This penalty was under discussion by HR activists both in India and in Pakistan (perhaps it is practiced in BD and SL), but was never implemented. In any case, even if it is implemented, the incidents have only increased. I can post a link on this one.

Perhaps an Indian Chowky will like to educate us all if this law really was rolled out.

RE: Mantolives.....

Re:# 34

MAntolives writes ..

``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....


Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....


``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``

It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....


The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....

Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....


Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....

Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims

All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...

Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....

The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s

---

it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.

Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.

It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......

I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.

BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....

RE: Mantolives.....

Re:# 34

MAntolives writes ..

``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....


Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....


``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``

It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....


The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....

Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....


Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....

Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims

All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...

Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....

The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s

---

it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.

Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.

It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......

I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.

BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....

RE: Mantolives.....

Re:# 34

MAntolives writes ..

``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....


Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....


``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``

It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....


The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....

Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....


Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....

Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims

All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...

Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....

The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s

---

it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.

Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.

It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......

I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.

BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....

RE: Mantolives.....

Re:# 34

MAntolives writes ..

``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....


Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....


``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``

It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....


The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....

Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....


Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....

Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims

All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...

Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....

The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s

---

it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.

Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.

It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......

I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.

BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....

Romair...

Read some history...

The forgiveness is part of the `Qisas and Diyat` Ordinance... which was enacted by Zia...
Amazingly he witheld its implementation until Bhutto was hanged...


Therefore my comment that Islam has made murder a tort in Pakistan and not a crime.

Rafay_Alam: Thanks for the info.

Some more questions, if you don`t mind, since you are a legal expert.

Is this forgiveness by next of kin law part of the Shariat Law or the normal law? Also, how does Shariah law and normal law in Pakistan connect with each other?

And how are the Shariah judges selected? What qualifications do they need? In the early to mid 80s, there used to be an officer of Lt. Col. rank at our station, who was an Islamiat teacher/motivation officer. The later is a category in the military also, where apparently some religiously qualified individuals can go. On the whole, it is not a very successful career path, and one rarely goes beyond Lt. Col.,if that high. And one remains pretty much unknown.

One fine day, in the early 90s, I was at a military hospital, when I see this big black car, with a chauffer, pull up, with some sort of a national flag. A guy steps out of the back seat, in a sherwani. The guy is a Shariah court judge. He looked familiar. It turns out, he was the same guy, who just ten years ago, was an unknown Lt. Col. Now he was probably the same seniority or higher than a Chief of Staff.

Romiar # 46:

You are correct. Even if the murder of a girl in the name of honor is lodged as an FIR, there is nothing stopping say, the girl`s parents would be able to forgive the accused.

I know that India faced a crises in relation to Dowry Deaths (or stove deaths, as they were known) in the 80s. This resulted in a change to the Indian Penal Code. Now, if memory serves me correctly, if a newly married woman dies in unnatural circumstances within the first 7 years of her marriage, the burden of proving that they did not murder her falls upon the woman`s husband or in-laws.

I know it sounds a bit harsh. Especially shifting the presumption of proof. But the English concept of innocent until proven guilty in one of many possible burdens of truth. For example, in the French Civil System, an accused is guilty until he proves his innocence.

I think we need something like the amended Indian Penal Code here in Pakistan. Sherry Rehman`s Women`s Empowerment Bill, 2003 - now before the National Assembly as a private member`s bill - has such a clause (where the burden to prove innocence is moved to the girl`s family if there is suspicion of murder in the name of honor). I know that such a bill may not have an effect in the villages and hamlets of Pakistan - where fuedal law still reigns supreme - but at least it`s a step in the right direction.

Rafay Alam

Pak reality,

Four pakistani brothers have been convicted in australia for gang rape, and their defence, they are unaware of the aussie legal system, as they are from NWFP of pakistan. They naturally assumed that the laws are same. Their father, a doctor has slammed the conviction as attack on islam.

Obviously the brothers could have killed the girls and called it honour killing. The pak apologists like dost mitter beleve that lahore is tribal area, samia sarwars mother is a doctor and father a prominant business man in lahore, and all that happened in the killing of samia sarwar was the application of tribal law. It is interesting to note that there are honour killing supporters every where and it should be the punjabi commonality that tahmed talks about.

Romair...

Nobody is blaming the mullahs.. but the honor killing is prevalent in NWFP also.

You make an interesting point about kin and close relatives being forgiven by the `wali`... this is because Islam has pervaded into the legal code. It is through Qisas and Diyat ordinance I believe....

Because of Islam and Islamic law ... Murder is a tort in Pakistan and not a crime... tsk tsk...

What say you?

-YLH

Rafay_Alam:

A legal question:

Don`t honor killing offenders get acquited, because they are usually a close relative of the viticm. And the victim is always killed with the consent of the next of kin. And according to some law, the next of kin has the right to forgive the killer. For example, the mother kills her daughter and the father forgives the mother, since they were both in it together.

Honor killings are, generally, a feudal custom. For some reason, the maulvis keep getting all the blame for them. They are most prominent in the areas ruled by parties like PPP and PML and their stallwarts. There is more chance of an honor killing occuring in the constituency of Amin Fahim (head of PPP) or Jamali (PML Prime Minister) that in the constituency of Qazi Hussain (head of Jamaat-i-Islami).

rafay

I was about mention grave and sudden provocation but I refrained from it so as to not confuse the issue...

The question is that would grave and sudden provocation be a defence... if a person was gravely and suddenly provoked on Monday and committed the murder on Tuesday?

And can a person be gravely and suddenly provoked in matters pertaining to relations other than wife? sister , mother? cousin?

rafay_alam:
The situation you describe is what I thought was happening; in other words, the society is so conditioned to certain lawless behaviour that the police wont even register FIRs. This is no different from the police not registering any case against murderers in case of communal riots.

Dost Mittar #39

You are right to say that the practice of Honor Killings are, in fact, fuedal custom. The Pak Penal Code recognizes murder as an offence, but also recognizes that self-defence and grave and sudden provacation are arguments which may mitigate against sentence, if not provide a water-tight defence. When argued in Court, an honor killing defence will have to prove that the murderer was in the grips of some sort of grave and sudden provacation. Usually catching one`s spouse, sister or mother in a ``compromising position`` will suffice. However, the Courts do not recognize the defence when there are elements of premeditated murder present (like buying a gun and waiting a week).

But Honor Killings go beyond the law. To be preceise, they fall below the threshold of the law. As far as an SHO posted, say, in Vehari, is concerned when a complaint of murder comes to him is whether it was ``justified`` or not. It`s a sad fact, but Pakistani men seem to think killing a woman who was, in any way, outside certain prescribed social norms (seen in the presence of a man) is totally justified. This is perhaps why so many honor killings are never reported. They never get past the Police Station`s doors.

Regards,
Rafay Alam

Re Syed Ahmad # 33

Thanks for the insight. I think you are correct.

I may reques you for some more information on this in the future.

Best regards,
Rafay Alam

Here is an important bit of info I missed

WOMAN PRESIDES
over parliament session

March 18 Begum Jehanara Shanawaz, the first woman member of former All India Muslim League and a senior parliamentarian, becomes the first Asian woman to preside over a parliament session

Jay,

Dost Mittar has pointed out something very important.

Sections 300-330 deal with offences against the human body... there is nothing that exempts honor killing as such.

Jay:
Are you sure that the so-called honour killing is not a crime in Pakistan and not a crime that goes unpunished? I am saying this because, as far as I know, murder is a capital offense in Pakistan. Is there a special clause in the Pakistan criminal code which exempts honour killing from the provision of the criminal act relating to murder? If not, is it simply not a case of the tribal/clan codes taking precedence over the law of the land.

Manto/ rafay

The importance of samia sarwar case is that honour killing is not a crime in pakistan, no case was filed by the police simply because no crime has been committed. There is no other country other than some muslim countries in the middle east where this happens. YLH, the difference is significant because people like you cannot make the distinction between honor killing being not a crime in pakistan. For you this legitimacy is nothing killing is nothing, you have no intention and desire to make killing a crime in pakistan simply because it is per the book. Take it from me YLH, killing is a crime in india while killing a woman in pakistan is not, as long as it is termed as honour killing, so declared by a mullah.

rafay,

I am posting from memeory, and it was reported that the next day asma was arretsed for leading samia from the moral path. I do know that it was not a bill to criminalise honour killing, it was juat a resolution to condemn it, but it is significant that the senators asserted that honour killing is OK by not passing the resolution.

mog

``were all ladies when they these started working on indian, pakistan forming, please say you thank``

Yes .... thankyou . How can a child forget the womb that bore it.

Ras,

Thankyou for your wishes.... you haven`t met me, but you met my better half :) and she thinks very highly of you. As a bullwark of the Pakistani American community in the bay area/North Calfornia you are well known even in Pakistan. And it is an honor to ge complimented by you so often.

Hope youcan come to Karachi/Lahore around the 21st/24th ....

-YLH

YLH & Manto,

we have not met, but its good to know you just the same.

Your articles sure are refreshingly different and on the fearless side so one

has to congratulate you on your honesty.

Have we thought of how we have regressed from 1947 to today?

I wonder if women will be allowed to go and replace flags now as they

have done in the past?

I hope that more people like you and your future wife will continue to come forward and

take up the cause of Pakistan.


But please be cautious as well as optimistic.


Best of luck to both of you


Ras H. siddiqui

were all ladies when they these started working on indian, pakistan forming, please say you thank

yogiraj

Eid Mubarik...

Syed Ahmed,

Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books. .

I am myself surprised.. that when someone like Maulana Mohd. Ali Jauhar wrote the draft constitution of Muslim League, how could one accuse the AIML of being feudal response to Congress`s land reforms... especially since Congress didn`t take about Land reofms till much later.

The politics of urban Muslim intelligentsia allowed the League some success in UP 1937... but being spurned by Congress woke the league upto the reality of Muslim Majority provinces... and Islamic symbolism as a mobilizing technique to counter Congress` religious allies like JUH... Sikandar-Jinnah pact was a watershed moment as far as league`s flirtaton with the feudals is concerned.

Therefore Pakistan needs to be interpreted in context of this history. This was what my article Muslim League`s Politics (1937-1947) was all about.

RE:Rafay Alam......

When Congress was established in 1885 - I dont beileve Dominion was an agenda - it was a natural outgrowth of tha Arya and Brahmo Samaj movements for social and cultural reform..... ( education reform , Banning of social practices such as sati etc etc ) MOst of the INdian founders such as Naroji ( a mentor of Jinnah), Surendernath banejee, W. BONerjee , Justice Ranade, and M.M Maloviya (sp?) had strong urban roots and very little to do with the feudal aristocracy..... Congress`s left wing bent began much after the first world war and the the success of the Bosheviks ..... ( and quite possibly in the late 20`s - early 30`) - the beginning of the depresson era - when Socialism was at the height of its popularity in Europe and England .....- One can contrast the politics of MOtilal and jawaharlal Nehru to notice the changing of the idelogical guard......

If you look at the Origins of teh MUslim League - the founders seem to be an even more ecletic Bunch, Navab Mohsin ul Mulk and Nawab Viqar ul MUlk - were both Aligarh academics - ( The title Nawab was a recognition from the Nizam), Maluana Zafar Ali Khan - a populist but improvished newspaper publisher from LAhore and protege of MOhsin ul Mulk, Maluana MOhd ALi Jauhar - another populist firebrand , and Hakim Ajmal Khan of Delhi -the founder of Jamia MIllia and of course their financial backer Nawab Saleemullah of Dacca.....and later joined by the Aga Khan.

Their main focus was to oppose the change of official second language from Urdu to HIndi which was in place across Northern India........and to safeguard Muslim interests against the rising tide of perceieved HIndu nationalism....Remember the British were toppling the apple cart in both Muslim and HIndu majority areas to maintain a healthy rivalry.

THe Muslim League`s feudal bias is a much later phenomenon that was itiatied by Mr JInnah as a ruse to garner support of Muslim leadership in the feudal states of what now constitute Pakistan and the princely states .... wheras the banner of Islam was used to garner the more populist vote in Bengal and Central India......( i believe that was a late 30`s phenomenon)

Manto,

This was a really a nice one. When every one (includes me) is challanging Islam / You.

I am the one who will openly call Pakistan my enemy. Provided the contex is right. Friend if contex is aok.

Honest disagreements (with you).

You do have your own country. Never ever that should that be an issue. Never try to answer / defend. You did. Pls buy a thick skin. Thanks

Yes we parted. Right or wrong. That is a fact. FACT. It is over and done with.

We MALES have historically, and even TODAY deal very dastardly with fair sex. Not only it is unfair, it is much, much more. We ALL are guilty. Hindoos and muslims. You put blame and get riled up only against M.

How to rectify should be a point of discussion. What should we do.

Yogiraj Patil

PS.... Eid Mubarak to all

Temporal,

Thanks for the tip. I`ll try and see if I can`t find something on the AIML`s founding documents.

Mantolives: You say that Congress was looking for Dominion self government. True. But they didn`t dream of the idea one fine day. They wanted representation before the Viceroy so that their interests could be protected. If what temporal has pointed me to is correct, these interests would, prima facie, seem to be their vast properties.

This is stuff which is definately between the lines. I haven`t come across it in any English writings in Pakistan. Which is why I found Dr. Mubarik Ali`s urdu essay on the subject quite illuminating.

Rafay

Was it Sughra Apa or Lady Hidayatullah?


Maybe to some brilliant scholars ‘relative obscurity and poverty’ means beggar woman… but to me it just meant that Sughra Apa was not living in opulent surroundings like the socialite wife of Hidayatullah…

Since Syed Ahmed is doing some cutting and pasting job…here is what I found on Nazaria-e-Pakistan foundation … While Sughra Hidayat Ullah (who was married to Sir Hidayatullah in 1919) was indeed present at the agitation, the woman I was talking about was also Sughra … she was known as Fatima Sughra begum … she was the ONE who hoisted the flag atop the secretariat. The nazaria Pakistan foundation makes that very clear.

Since Syed Ahmed’s research is limited to one website sadly…. There is no way he would know this.

http://www.nazariapak.info/ShowTopics.asp?TopicCode=14&CatCode=6

My mistake is simply not to write Sughra apa’s complete name which is Fatima Sughra …

Syed Ahmed’s favorite website is way off on facts… it has taken Sughra Apa’s picture and claimed that this is Lady Hidayatullah … http://www.storyofpakistan.com/person.asp?perid=P081 if you look at the picture she is holding the League flag… Sughra Apa’s picture was taken in 1947… meanwhile Lady Hidayatullah was born in 1904… Does the woman in the picture look like she is 43 years old?

It is a well known fact that Sughra Apa, and not Hidayatullah’s wife, hoisted the flag on the secretariat building….

I wonder who is altering facts to fit their agenda now?

Nothing riles me up more than an ignorant (note IGNORANT) distortion of History.

No wonder ‘all Pakistanis are laughing hysterically’ after reading half of syed ahmed’s posts… as per his own admission.

More ‘scholarly knowledge’ from Syed Ahmed:

One can’t argue with people like Syed Ahmed… it seems that his entire ‘research’ based on random searches on Google…Read ‘From Purdah to Parliament’ by Shaista Ikram Ullah… instead of wasting your time and my time with Pakistan Studies rhetoric….

Muhammad Ali Jauhar, Shaukat Ali, Syed Ameer Ali, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, and Allama Iqbal are indeed very important to the awakening of the Muslim consciousness, but had you read the article, it was specifically related to those women who formed the part of the final push itself… those who were organized by the League… Bi Ama might have had a role to play in the non-cooperation movement of 1921.. but she was not part of the League agitation for Pakistan.

Your disrespect to Sughra Baji who is well known figure of Lahore is shameless … all because you read on the Story of Pakistan that it was Sughra Hidayatullah not sughra baji… to call her a beggar woman is just sad. She was an honorable women who lived a very honest life. Everyone knew her and respected her. If you look at her picture… she was no more than 20 years of age when she did that … She remained part of the league throughout life and she was NOT married Sir Hidayatullah. This is where your ‘website’ searches fail because I know many of these people personally. Show me one other ‘written’ account other than story of Pakistan which claims that. Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’… what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? The website is good for pictures… but not good for facts.


“Let us assume that I am wrong “

We are not assuming you are wrong… You are WRONG.

“- so a woman who once hoisted a flag over the constituent assembly deserves honorable mention - wheras one of the prominent leaders of the Muslim leagues women movement does deserve any mention at all... I would call that creative history..........”

It was not the constituent assembly you bumbling idiot… it was the civil secretariat of Lahore … the most famous event of that very famous time when the League women took up civil disobedience against Khizer Government…

I think it goes without saying that Sughra Baji’s famous heroic act in Lahore secretariat is much more important historically, than the drawing room musings of Sughra Hidayatullah or whatever. The event at Lahore secretariat captured the imagination of the masses, and galvanized them even further… The honorable Syed Afzal Hyder, the former law minister, constitutional lawyer, historian and Modernist Islamic scholar, who was a student worker of the league at the time still gets emotional about those events, when talking in his constitutional history class.

Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’… what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? The website is good for pictures… but not good for facts.



Are you the same character … the Paknews Washington bureau chief? Cuz I have heard he refused to publish Maleeha Lodhi’s interview once on Paknews.. because he felt she had plagiarized her PhD thesis at LSE… given your constant negativity, I am increasingly sure you are the same person.


Instead of accusing me of ‘altering’ facts… have some shame and be man enough to admit that you are just horribly wrong on all of this. Just because this article doesn’t seem to fit your ‘Islamist’ agenda… you are out to discredit me and my work.


-YLH

Ref ZahraJ #8

{SyedAhmed:

[All the women you mentioned stood on the shoulders of their fathers or brothers or Husbands… including the ones you listed .,….]

This was the punch line. Good Point.}

And those fathers and brothers were borne by women! SyedAhmed ignores that fact!

RE #24

Sigalph

I stand corrected – she was indeed the niece of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy - not his sister …..

RE #24

Sigalph

I stand corrected – she was indeed the niece of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy - not his sister …..

RE #24


Monsieur manto - I suggest you re-read history ....

---

Mr Manto writes...

``For Syed Ahmed’s information (which is pathetically little) Mohammed Ali Jauhar passed away in 1932… and Shaukat Ali Passed away in 1938 late… Pakistan Movement in essence was not adopted by the league till 1940 and the Ali Brothers had nothing to do with it… I just don’t see a logical connection… except that the ‘third grade Pak History book ‘ says it. ``

---

BY your analogy - Allama Iqbal who died in 1938 had nothing to do with the Pakistan movement. Since the declaration was in 1940...... THis is akin to saying that Tilak and Gokhale had nothing to do with the Indian independence movement since they died prior to 1947 - This is warped logic.....

I suggest you alter your opinions to face facts - you tend to alter facts to suit opinion......

I think most Pakistanis would be laughing hysterically by now ................


MOhd ALi was one of the founders of the League - and was one of the earlier proponents of a nationhood for muslims along with fire brand hasrat Mohani - It was Iqbal who later provided the the physical realization of that idea....... MOhd ALi was a consistent proponent of the idea of a Muslim nationhood and attended the Round table conferences as the leagues representative -several times.and was part of its core leadership until his death in 1932.........According to most historians the genesis of the Pakistan movement started with Syed Ahmed Khan and the education of Muslims - unless you claim that Aligarh had no part in the creation of Pakistan.......and each successive generation created the infrastructure needed for successive generations to follow upon.....

---

Manto writes .....

---

The Sughra Begum I talk of was a young league activist from Lahore… she was NOT married to Hidayat Ullah… as the ‘story of Pakistan’ website claims… Sughra Begum lived in relative obscurity and poverty… and used to visit my mom at Mayo Hospital for check up till the early 1990s … she used to travel on a Wagon.

---

Any published account of that incident credits Mrs Sugra HIdayatullah with that deed - and not some poor beggar-woman that mom treated in the hospital.....

Let us assume that I am wrong - so a woman who once hoisted a flag over the constituent assembly deserves honorable mention - wheras one of the prominent leaders of the Muslim leagues women movement does deserve any mention at all... I would call that creative history..........if not revisionism.....

---

Manto, our textbook scholar Syed Ahmed isn`t right on this one either

``The Brilliant scholar and writer Syed Ahmed further writes:

”Dr. Shaista Ikramullah – was wife of of Ikrammullah ( First foreign secretary of Pakistan) – sister of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy ( first CM Bengal) ,``

Shaista Suhrawardy Ikramullah was the daughter of Sir Hsssan Suhrawardy who was the brother of H S Suhrawardy. That would make her the neice of Premier Suhrawardy, not his sister.

What happens when you base your history on ‘3rd grade Pak History text books’:

Syed Ahmed’s ‘Facts’:

He writes:

“Abadi Begum: Secondly the history of the Pakistan women’s movement begins with “BI AMMA” –- mother of both Mohd Ali And Shaukat Ali Jauhar….( which any 3rd grade Pak history textbook will attest to)….. “

According to Syed Ahmed sahib… Bi Ama the mother of Mohammed Ali Jauhar, and Shuaukat Ali (NOT JAUHAR.. jauhar was not a last name) was involved in the Pakistan Movement. Bi Ama whose stories I have been reading all my life … has to her credit that she brought up to fine leaders who fiercely independent … but their involvement if any was in the Khilafat Movement and NOT the Pakistan Movement. For Syed Ahmed’s information (which is pathetically little) Mohammed Ali Jauhar passed away in 1932… and Shaukat Ali Passed away in 1938 late… Pakistan Movement in essence was not adopted by the league till 1940 and the Ali Brothers had nothing to do with it… I just don’t see a logical connection… except that the ‘third grade Pak History book ‘ says it.



The Great scholar Syed Ahmed further writes:

”Lady Sugra Hidayatullah - IS not an unknown – she was one of the more prominent leaders of the Sindh Muslim League ( also wife of Ghulam Hussain Hidyatullah) – first Governor of Sindh. “

Again Little Knowledge is dangerous…

The Sughra Begum I talk of was a young league activist from Lahore… she was NOT married to Hidayat Ullah… as the ‘story of Pakistan’ website claims… Sughra Begum lived in relative obscurity and poverty… and used to visit my mom at Mayo Hospital for check up till the early 1990s … she used to travel on a Wagon.


The Brilliant scholar and writer Syed Ahmed further writes:

”Dr. Shaista Ikramullah – was wife of of Ikrammullah ( First foreign secretary of Pakistan) – sister of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy ( first CM Bengal) , niece of Ghullam Hussain Hidayatullah ( Chief Justice of India and later Vice Presidcent of India – She was the first Muslim Phd in the subcontinent and the first lady to be represented in the constituent Assembly of Pakistan “


So what new information have you provided here … that I have already not given in the article?


”Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz – was also joined by her Sister Geta Ara Shahnawaz and brother Basheer Ahmed – all being the children of MIan Shafi… “

And this proves what? That she was not the force behind the struggle for women’s equality in Pakistan? That she was not an indomitable legislator? That she was selected by the Viceroy on the War council? Did she not stand up infront of even the Quaid-e-Azam himself if the need so required… was she not a fiercely independent woman?



”Begum Salma Tassaduque Hussain: was also the wife of a prominent Muslim Leaguer Mian Tassadaque Hussain. She was also teh convener of teh ALL Indian Muslim Girls conferences... “
So whats the new information here?


”Begum Viqar unnisa Noon - ( wife of Feroz Khan noon – PM of Pakistan) was actually a German/Austrian (??) who was actively involved in the league activities……. “

She was Austrian and a family friend, great grandmother of a high school buddy … but have I mentioned her in my list? Or are you blind?


But who can blame someone whose source is ‘third grade Pak History textbook’?

-YLH

Why did Pakiland turned out to be a pigsty then?

Dear Syed Ahmed

Pray tell what my strong ideological current is ?

You took one sentence, which you misinterpreted and you based your entire objection around it ... nothing in your original post questions any of my facts... your objection was a matter of perspective... in my opinion the contribution of the first two women in law making of our nation far greater than anyone else... that is why I hold their contribution to be independent of the men in their lives... I challenge you point out anything inaccurate about these women`s lives that I have presented here... I am telling history exactly the way it is... clearly ... its not the way you want it.

As for my articles getting read... I have no such insecurity. Two of my previous articles `Are Secularism and islam incompatible` and `Rescinding the Concordat` are the two most read articles of this year on Chowk.

Journalism is not my profession...nor am I writer... therefore, I don`t need to take BS from anyone... especially someone who doesn`t have a positive bone in his body...

-YLH

Re: Mantolives....

In my reply I have applauded you intent which I re-iterate here as well. I am neither an authority nor a scholar of history - and I do grudgingly admire that you take the time and the effort to write on the chowk - even though I feel that there are strong undercurrents of your ideological mindset often presented as fact.....



But if you wish your articles to be read - make sure that you research them well - or at least adequately - otherwise it puts your credibility at risk...... I have been on the chowk for a very long time - and must admit that you have become more pragmatic than in the past......

Nonethless - please dont present opinions as fact - Tell history as it was - not as you wanted it to be - which is what you have done in this article - and it does not help your journalistic credibilty any.......

On a seperate note - stinging criticism is an occupation hazard for a writer -( whether deserved or not) so develop a thick skin and get used to it.....

Re: Mantolives....

In my reply I have applauded you intent which I re-iterate here as well. I am neither an authority nor a scholar of history - and I do grudgingly admire that you take the time and the effort to write on the chowk - even though I feel that there are strong undercurrents of your ideological mindset often presented as fact.....



But if you wish your articles to be read - make sure that you research them well - or at least adequately - otherwise it puts your credibility at risk...... I have been on the chowk for a very long time - and must admit that you have become more pragmatic than in the past......

Nonethless - please dont present opinions as fact - Tell history as it was - not as you wanted it to be - which is what you have done in this article - and it does not help your journalistic credibilty any.......

On a seperate note - stinging criticism is an occupation hazard for a writer -( whether deserved or not) so develop a thick skin and get used to it.....

I meant ... Fazl-e- Hussain

temporal, Rafay,

There is absolutely no historical evidence to suggest that... in 1906 ... the Indian National congress was not talking about land reforms or anything... its main aim was to attain dominion self government... perhaps you are confusing the name with the Unionist Party which was founded with that express purpose in 1920s : to protect the interests of the feudals. The leading light of the Unionists was Sir Fazle Hassan.

League infact in 1913 had reinvented itself from a British loyalist party (in the tradition of Sir Syed) to a party asking Dominion self government ... after it was persuaded by Jinnah , who at the time was a Congressman himself. This led to the famous Lucknow Pact 1916 ... also known as Tilak Jinnah pact, and Nehru-Jinnah Pact.

-YLH

Rafay alam,

One of the people who took a stance against the resolution was that woman hating Wali Khan... yes the same Wali Khan.. who Indians like Jay hold to be the most secular progressive politician of Pakistan... the son of Badshah Khan, aka frontier Gandhi, and the championof Pushtun rights..

So much for the accusations against the so called `tntists`...

Jay,

Are you suggesting India doesn`t have its share of raped, abused, exploited, and murdered women... This is precisely why you are a disgusting human being... I will tell you why:

You are almost glad what happened to those women ... it gives you a chance to feel good about your otherwise pathetic miserable life. Everything is a tool for you in your game of one upmanship... to win at that game you love to play : Paki Bashing... You are glad Samia Sarwar died. Everytime a Pakistani woman succumbs.. you get aother chance to bash the hell out of Pakistan which is your ultimate objective.

If you really cared about the plight of women... you would start with the women o f your own country.... the truth is that India is no bed of roses for women either... but those poor women who die in India are not worth your time... are they? Shame on you Jaya prakash... shame on you... you probably are a serial killer rapist yourself...

-YLH

Re Jay No. 9

I must disagree with some of your facts. In the Samia Sarwar case, Asma Jehangir was not arrested. In fact, Samia Sarwar`s murder took place in the next room, in Hina Jilani`s office. Asma`s connection with the matter came later, in the form of protests and a case filed on Samia Sarwar`s behalf in the anti-terrorist court. She was not arrested in relation to the offence. If memory serves me correctly (I was in the AGHS office that very morning), Asam was not in office that day (but I may be wrong).

There was a resolution (not a Bill) in the Senate (not the Parliament) condemning honor killings. I think Senator Iqbal Haider was the brains behind the resolution. Since it was a resolution in the Senate, it did not matter that it pass or not (it was not a Bill, and would not become a law). It did, however, matter how many people voted for it. Less than two dozen did. Senator Javed Iqbal - who had favored the resolution at first - did not vote. If memory serves me correct, there were more abstentions from the vote than there was opposition to it.

I think you are confusing the Samia Sarwar case with the Uzma Waheed case (which was about two or three years earlier). In that case, the question was whether an adult woman could marry without the consent of her guardian. The High Court, in a narrow 2:1 decision said that she could. The matter is now before the Supreme Court of Pakistan, and is being heard by, if my memory serves me well (it`s been a bit of a slow day today), Munir A. Sheikh, Karamat Nazir Bhandari (both excellent judges with impeccable reputations) and another judge.

In the Uzma Waheed case, Asma was made a party to the alleged kidnapping of Uzma. This was an allegation framed against Asma by Uzma`s father, who had lodged a criminal case against Asma for enticing her daughter to Dastak, the women`s shelter run by Asma`s law firm.

Thought I would clear that up.

Rafay Alam

digression:

lists, lists and more lists...so yasser mentioned a few...and syed ahmed added to that list...fine

On Pakistani Women

...but what is amusing and more than slightly troubling...ok that is an under-statement....what is really troubling is the male desi attitude...particularly muslim desi attitude toward women...no, no will not bring islam into question...it is not islam...and i count myself in this criticism...we are men...read men in letters that cover the sky...dwarfing heaven!....we are men...utterly disregarding women folk from our life ...except when we want to court or bed them...forgetting that we owe our very existence to having been nurtured in a womb...not caring...in fact dissing all save a few...and i will question that too ...mother-wife-sister…and an odd friend or two…harsh words, I admit….but I will be honest…out there…in life…we show a greater propensity to love dogs and cats than women around…I mean this in the sense of owing due respect…giving them equal rights…

…i can almost sense a friend saying “laikin yaar hum tO mardoN ki bhee respect nahiN kartay haiN”…

…which is or maybe true also…but am more concerned for the respect to women…because it shows up in our attitudes elsewhere… wish i could show a society or nation where respect for women is exemplary…i know, as human beings we have a long way to go to afford them equal respect, if not equal ‘pay’…but that is another issue…

…but…that inability should not take anything from the fact that we do not respect women….and treat them as someone just marginally above the cats and dogs on our totem poles…and as I hinted earlier…I believe this starts off a process in life where we become clannish, upholders of division in society based on clan, property, profession…thus further alienating others (including men) in our society…

…there is hope…yes there always is…this new breed of women that is coming up…they are more educated and aware of the trauma faced by women…they are vocal…and they are in the workforce…money is power…when money speaks, more men listen…as they gain ascendancy in work, in other spheres of everyday life they will be heard more and more…they will not be pushed around with the same ease their mothers and grand mothers were pushed around…

…one thing those who understand and care should do without delay is to help these ladies in any way possible…so that some pain in this struggle…onslaught really ..can be shared…so that they can be empowered….so that they know they are not alone…and together with them…we can someday do our mothers proud…

rafay:

i cannot point out the source material from here but from memory what i recall of the opening lines of the founding resolution of AIML can be quite telling...``...we the jagirdars, tumandars, nawabs....!``

rgds,

t

YLH,

Like Syed Ahmad (posts # 5 and 6), I too applaud your effort. However, the sentences or two you have used to describe each of these Pakistani heroines does not do justice to them at all. For example, I know nothing more or less of Fatima Begum than when I woke up this morning. The short paragraph vignettes are more like the stuff we were forced to read in our Pak-Studies classes. Telling one someone is brilliant and expecting them to take your word for it is hardly scholarship. It`s propaganda.

On another note: I came across some research by Dr. Mubarik Ali, a historian. His theory is that when Muslim fuedals in Northern India realized that the All India Congress was planning wholescale land reforms, they opted to create their own party, the All India Muslim League. Have you heard of such a notion? If so, could you point me to some material.

Regards,
Rafay Alam

Interesting article. Specially when combined with the list provided by Syed Ahmad.

I think the true strength of women in a society is recongnized, if everyday women can rise to distinction. Were there any everyday women, i.e. not related to powerful men, who rose to high levels in the Pakistan movement?

I think the current 1/3rd representation of women in local councils should result in a lot of women, eventually, making some kind of a name for themselves in the political arena.

Yasser,

A sweet effort!

SyedAhmed:

[All the women you mentioned stood on the shoulders of their fathers or brothers or Husbands… including the ones you listed .,….]

This was the punch line. Good Point.

Samia Sarwar,

Yet once again, YLH has dug up the past, to popint to its irreleveance in the pakistan of today. He has named a few who have been long forgotten in the social settings of pakistan. More than any one else, one has to remeber the contribution of samia sarwar, the one killed in the office of asma jihangir, in front of so mant witnesses. Asma was arrested for misleading the young womans mind while no charge was laid against the killers.
A resolution condemning the killing was rejected by 75 percent majority of a doccratically elected parliment headed by nawaz sharif.
No YLH dares to writte about her. The first act of mushy, with in 100 days of coming to power was to invite the killer father to reassure that nothing will be done to him.
Samia sarwar gets no mention by any pakistanis, ylh cannot remeber her name and her contribution to the plight of women by her own sacrifice. YLH, samia sarwar died because she wanted to get awat from a husban twice her age. YLH, shed a tear for her, do not leve that task for kafirs like me. Education has to make an impact, should give you an ability to read beyond what jinnah spoke, it involves a social responsibility to change, not to white wash the pathetic history.
If all these women whome you talk about had any impact on pak society how come it is so barbaric today.
Culture and social values die very slowly, it cannot die in 50 years, and what is at present in pakistan is a proof that pakistan never had what you are writing about. Pakistan is a darwenian creation, it is an outcome of a natural selection process of people who believed in TNT.
YLH, please include samia sarwar in your list

Syed Ahmed,

I agree ... my research is juvenile and inaccurate ... I waited for so long that a great scholar like you would write about these women... but it seems like you scholars were never interested until ofcourse its about pulling someone down, which like every good pakistani journalist (esp