Founding Mothers
Yasser Latif Hamdani November 24, 2003
#59 Posted by rafay_alam on November 30, 2003 6:56:59 am
Romair # 50:
I`ll check the law on the selection of Shariat Bench Judges. My limited knowledge does understand that the Bench comprises of a mix of judges of the High Courts and other experts in Shariah. I suppose the decision of who is and who is not an expert in Shariah is taken by the State. But I`ll figure the connections out and let you know the answer on another message board (this one will soon be off the main page, and it is already getting hot in here).
And Ahmadzai # 52:
I studied in University that the Indians had passed the law. I`ll check my notes and have a snoop around the internet. Again, I`ll let you know if anything crops up.
Meanwhile, on the topic of Honor Killings (although, much to Mantolives/YLH`s increasing fury, this detracts from his article - many apologies), here is today`s editorial from the Daily Times:
EDITORIAL: Thank you, General Musharraf, but...
Sometimes a benevolent dictatorship can achieve socially desired results more efficiently than a lumbering democracy of vested interests. A recent case of a classic ‘honour killing’ proves this point. According to press reports, a young woman by the name of Afshin, who ‘belonged’ to a landed Sahu family in district Khanewal of Punjab, was done to death by family patriarchs because she was alleged to have brought ‘dishonour’ to the clan by wanting to marry someone unacceptable to family elders. The death of the girl went un-remarked because there was no formal complainant — it was, said the family privately, an ‘internal’ matter. Hundreds of such cases go by default every year in this country for three main reasons: clever lawyers can frame the murder under the Hudood laws and get the murderers off lightly; our ‘culture’ is still shackled by many pre-Islamic and tribal notions of honour and there is no great societal abhorrence of such acts; powerful vested interests in the state are inclined to side with, rather than book, the culprits.
But this case is shaping up differently, at least so far. It is learnt that the matter was brought to the notice of General Pervez Musharraf and he promptly ordered the machinery of the state into action. The local big wigs of the area, including a federal minister, were ordered not to protect the influential family, the local administration and police were whipped into investigation, the grave of the victim was officially dug up and Afshin’s body was sent for a post mortem. Initial press reports say there are torture marks on the body and that she was probably strangulated to death or electrocuted. Family sources have until now claimed various things: that she had a heart attack; that she died of a mysterious illness, and so forth. While the results are awaited, the Sahu family is said to be running from pillar to post seeking legal and political protection. And then yesterday, we heard the good news that the girl’s father gave himself up to the police and confessed to the crime.
We see this as a case that will test General Musharraf’s resolve to bring ‘enlightened moderation’ to Pakistan. When the action was ordered by General Musharraf, international wire services and news agencies were quick to praise him. In fact, CNN had a ticker tape of General Musharraf’s order launching the inquiry running below its main stories of the day, which meant that tens of millions of people all over the world would have silently applauded Pakistan’s president for his humane and timely intervention. Indeed, by this gesture alone General Musharraf may have earned more international goodwill than all his statements against extremism so far. But this sort of thing cuts both ways. By the same token, if General Musharraf doesn’t personally make sure that the case is concluded on merit and becomes a powerful deterrent for all honour killings in the country, a great opportunity would have been lost to strike a blow for human rights and the cynics would be encouraged in accusing General Musharraf of political opportunism.
That is why it is important for General Pervez Musharraf to personally make sure, on a day to day basis if necessary, that the case is not waylaid or sabotaged midway through a combination of vested interests, police corruption, institutional lethargy and political sifarshis. Certainly, this lethal combination of social, political and legal practice has been responsible for subverting the course of justice in this country for decades. When will it end?
There are five centres of power in Punjab: the chief minister, the governor, the corps commanders, the IGP and the chief secretary. They must all singly and jointly be ordered to make sure that justice is not only done to the spirit of Afshin and the human rights struggle against honour killings but also seen by everyone at home and abroad to have been done.
Earlier this month, we had cause to be shamefaced and dismayed (Daily Times editorial, ‘National Assembly’s “honour”’). Mr M P Bhandara, MNA, tried to rustle up a resolution in our ‘great and democratic parliament’ against the uncivilised practice of honour killings that is totally alien to the enlightened and moderating vision of Islam. But he was faced with a stunning conspiracy of silence. First the Speaker of the Assembly tried to kill his resolution. When Mr Bhandara insisted, he was given the floor. But except for one woman member of parliament, he could not get any of our gallant defenders of justice and democracy in parliament to stand up and shout NO to honour killings. Finally, he was summoned by the Speaker to his chamber where some treasury MNAs told him to withdraw the resolution since it (resolution) went against their ‘code of honour’. It would be tragic if this great initiative by General Pervez Musharraf were to meet with the same fate. This is a classic case of what may be a small step for General Musharraf but could become a great leap for Pakistan. *
end quote.
I think Sethi hits a couple of points in the head here.
Best regards,
Rafay Alam
I`ll check the law on the selection of Shariat Bench Judges. My limited knowledge does understand that the Bench comprises of a mix of judges of the High Courts and other experts in Shariah. I suppose the decision of who is and who is not an expert in Shariah is taken by the State. But I`ll figure the connections out and let you know the answer on another message board (this one will soon be off the main page, and it is already getting hot in here).
And Ahmadzai # 52:
I studied in University that the Indians had passed the law. I`ll check my notes and have a snoop around the internet. Again, I`ll let you know if anything crops up.
Meanwhile, on the topic of Honor Killings (although, much to Mantolives/YLH`s increasing fury, this detracts from his article - many apologies), here is today`s editorial from the Daily Times:
EDITORIAL: Thank you, General Musharraf, but...
Sometimes a benevolent dictatorship can achieve socially desired results more efficiently than a lumbering democracy of vested interests. A recent case of a classic ‘honour killing’ proves this point. According to press reports, a young woman by the name of Afshin, who ‘belonged’ to a landed Sahu family in district Khanewal of Punjab, was done to death by family patriarchs because she was alleged to have brought ‘dishonour’ to the clan by wanting to marry someone unacceptable to family elders. The death of the girl went un-remarked because there was no formal complainant — it was, said the family privately, an ‘internal’ matter. Hundreds of such cases go by default every year in this country for three main reasons: clever lawyers can frame the murder under the Hudood laws and get the murderers off lightly; our ‘culture’ is still shackled by many pre-Islamic and tribal notions of honour and there is no great societal abhorrence of such acts; powerful vested interests in the state are inclined to side with, rather than book, the culprits.
But this case is shaping up differently, at least so far. It is learnt that the matter was brought to the notice of General Pervez Musharraf and he promptly ordered the machinery of the state into action. The local big wigs of the area, including a federal minister, were ordered not to protect the influential family, the local administration and police were whipped into investigation, the grave of the victim was officially dug up and Afshin’s body was sent for a post mortem. Initial press reports say there are torture marks on the body and that she was probably strangulated to death or electrocuted. Family sources have until now claimed various things: that she had a heart attack; that she died of a mysterious illness, and so forth. While the results are awaited, the Sahu family is said to be running from pillar to post seeking legal and political protection. And then yesterday, we heard the good news that the girl’s father gave himself up to the police and confessed to the crime.
We see this as a case that will test General Musharraf’s resolve to bring ‘enlightened moderation’ to Pakistan. When the action was ordered by General Musharraf, international wire services and news agencies were quick to praise him. In fact, CNN had a ticker tape of General Musharraf’s order launching the inquiry running below its main stories of the day, which meant that tens of millions of people all over the world would have silently applauded Pakistan’s president for his humane and timely intervention. Indeed, by this gesture alone General Musharraf may have earned more international goodwill than all his statements against extremism so far. But this sort of thing cuts both ways. By the same token, if General Musharraf doesn’t personally make sure that the case is concluded on merit and becomes a powerful deterrent for all honour killings in the country, a great opportunity would have been lost to strike a blow for human rights and the cynics would be encouraged in accusing General Musharraf of political opportunism.
That is why it is important for General Pervez Musharraf to personally make sure, on a day to day basis if necessary, that the case is not waylaid or sabotaged midway through a combination of vested interests, police corruption, institutional lethargy and political sifarshis. Certainly, this lethal combination of social, political and legal practice has been responsible for subverting the course of justice in this country for decades. When will it end?
There are five centres of power in Punjab: the chief minister, the governor, the corps commanders, the IGP and the chief secretary. They must all singly and jointly be ordered to make sure that justice is not only done to the spirit of Afshin and the human rights struggle against honour killings but also seen by everyone at home and abroad to have been done.
Earlier this month, we had cause to be shamefaced and dismayed (Daily Times editorial, ‘National Assembly’s “honour”’). Mr M P Bhandara, MNA, tried to rustle up a resolution in our ‘great and democratic parliament’ against the uncivilised practice of honour killings that is totally alien to the enlightened and moderating vision of Islam. But he was faced with a stunning conspiracy of silence. First the Speaker of the Assembly tried to kill his resolution. When Mr Bhandara insisted, he was given the floor. But except for one woman member of parliament, he could not get any of our gallant defenders of justice and democracy in parliament to stand up and shout NO to honour killings. Finally, he was summoned by the Speaker to his chamber where some treasury MNAs told him to withdraw the resolution since it (resolution) went against their ‘code of honour’. It would be tragic if this great initiative by General Pervez Musharraf were to meet with the same fate. This is a classic case of what may be a small step for General Musharraf but could become a great leap for Pakistan. *
end quote.
I think Sethi hits a couple of points in the head here.
Best regards,
Rafay Alam
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#58 Posted by MantoLives on November 29, 2003 11:18:55 pm
Chowk staff
Please take care of this bozo who is pointlessly flooding this board.
syed ahmed...
Stop flooding my board like a maniac who can`t prove his point through logic alone!
The fact is that your claims have been disproved. Instead of making tall claims like revisionism why don`t you point out actual points where you feel I have passed on my personal opinion ... the fact is that you can`t and it pisses you off even more.. You just can`t admit you were out of line with your so called `historical` perspective. That would after all be a manly thing to do.
I still haven`t seen you apologize for insulting Sughra Apa who is an icon of Lahore.
Typical is your previous response... instead of admitting that you were dead wrong about who put the flag there... you have started a tangential debate on `ethnocentric` bias eventhough in the very next post I admitted that Lady Hidayatullah was also in that rally, but she was not the famous young lady of about 20 who put the flag atop Lahore secretariat.
``Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history.... ``
Instead of barking it out repeatedly ... have the courtesy of pointing out exactly which articles are you talking about .... so that I can make amends next time. Or are you just lying out of teeth to save your own face???
-YLH
Please take care of this bozo who is pointlessly flooding this board.
syed ahmed...
Stop flooding my board like a maniac who can`t prove his point through logic alone!
The fact is that your claims have been disproved. Instead of making tall claims like revisionism why don`t you point out actual points where you feel I have passed on my personal opinion ... the fact is that you can`t and it pisses you off even more.. You just can`t admit you were out of line with your so called `historical` perspective. That would after all be a manly thing to do.
I still haven`t seen you apologize for insulting Sughra Apa who is an icon of Lahore.
Typical is your previous response... instead of admitting that you were dead wrong about who put the flag there... you have started a tangential debate on `ethnocentric` bias eventhough in the very next post I admitted that Lady Hidayatullah was also in that rally, but she was not the famous young lady of about 20 who put the flag atop Lahore secretariat.
``Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history.... ``
Instead of barking it out repeatedly ... have the courtesy of pointing out exactly which articles are you talking about .... so that I can make amends next time. Or are you just lying out of teeth to save your own face???
-YLH
#57 Posted by sigalph235 on November 29, 2003 11:05:19 pm
Syed Ahmed sahib
As much as your words are illuminating, must we have four times times the light?
As much as your words are illuminating, must we have four times times the light?
#56 Posted by Ahmadzai on November 29, 2003 1:10:45 pm
rafay-alam at # 49:
``I know that India faced a crises in relation to Dowry Deaths (or stove deaths, as they were known) in the 80s. This resulted in a change to the Indian Penal Code. Now, if memory serves me correctly, if a newly married woman dies in unnatural circumstances within the first 7 years of her marriage, the burden of proving that they did not murder her falls upon the woman`s husband or in-laws. ``
Although this was mentioned once before by an Indian participant, I have my strong doubts whether this was passed as a law in India. This penalty was under discussion by HR activists both in India and in Pakistan (perhaps it is practiced in BD and SL), but was never implemented. In any case, even if it is implemented, the incidents have only increased. I can post a link on this one.
Perhaps an Indian Chowky will like to educate us all if this law really was rolled out.
``I know that India faced a crises in relation to Dowry Deaths (or stove deaths, as they were known) in the 80s. This resulted in a change to the Indian Penal Code. Now, if memory serves me correctly, if a newly married woman dies in unnatural circumstances within the first 7 years of her marriage, the burden of proving that they did not murder her falls upon the woman`s husband or in-laws. ``
Although this was mentioned once before by an Indian participant, I have my strong doubts whether this was passed as a law in India. This penalty was under discussion by HR activists both in India and in Pakistan (perhaps it is practiced in BD and SL), but was never implemented. In any case, even if it is implemented, the incidents have only increased. I can post a link on this one.
Perhaps an Indian Chowky will like to educate us all if this law really was rolled out.
#55 Posted by SyedAhmed on November 29, 2003 1:10:45 pm
RE: Mantolives.....
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
#54 Posted by SyedAhmed on November 29, 2003 1:10:45 pm
RE: Mantolives.....
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
#53 Posted by SyedAhmed on November 29, 2003 1:10:45 pm
RE: Mantolives.....
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
#52 Posted by SyedAhmed on November 29, 2003 1:10:45 pm
RE: Mantolives.....
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
#51 Posted by MantoLives on November 29, 2003 8:21:14 am
Romair...
Read some history...
The forgiveness is part of the `Qisas and Diyat` Ordinance... which was enacted by Zia...
Amazingly he witheld its implementation until Bhutto was hanged...
Therefore my comment that Islam has made murder a tort in Pakistan and not a crime.
#50 Posted by Romair on November 29, 2003 7:44:43 am
Rafay_Alam: Thanks for the info.
Some more questions, if you don`t mind, since you are a legal expert.
Is this forgiveness by next of kin law part of the Shariat Law or the normal law? Also, how does Shariah law and normal law in Pakistan connect with each other?
And how are the Shariah judges selected? What qualifications do they need? In the early to mid 80s, there used to be an officer of Lt. Col. rank at our station, who was an Islamiat teacher/motivation officer. The later is a category in the military also, where apparently some religiously qualified individuals can go. On the whole, it is not a very successful career path, and one rarely goes beyond Lt. Col.,if that high. And one remains pretty much unknown.
One fine day, in the early 90s, I was at a military hospital, when I see this big black car, with a chauffer, pull up, with some sort of a national flag. A guy steps out of the back seat, in a sherwani. The guy is a Shariah court judge. He looked familiar. It turns out, he was the same guy, who just ten years ago, was an unknown Lt. Col. Now he was probably the same seniority or higher than a Chief of Staff.
Some more questions, if you don`t mind, since you are a legal expert.
Is this forgiveness by next of kin law part of the Shariat Law or the normal law? Also, how does Shariah law and normal law in Pakistan connect with each other?
And how are the Shariah judges selected? What qualifications do they need? In the early to mid 80s, there used to be an officer of Lt. Col. rank at our station, who was an Islamiat teacher/motivation officer. The later is a category in the military also, where apparently some religiously qualified individuals can go. On the whole, it is not a very successful career path, and one rarely goes beyond Lt. Col.,if that high. And one remains pretty much unknown.
One fine day, in the early 90s, I was at a military hospital, when I see this big black car, with a chauffer, pull up, with some sort of a national flag. A guy steps out of the back seat, in a sherwani. The guy is a Shariah court judge. He looked familiar. It turns out, he was the same guy, who just ten years ago, was an unknown Lt. Col. Now he was probably the same seniority or higher than a Chief of Staff.
#49 Posted by rafay_alam on November 29, 2003 6:27:21 am
Romiar # 46:
You are correct. Even if the murder of a girl in the name of honor is lodged as an FIR, there is nothing stopping say, the girl`s parents would be able to forgive the accused.
I know that India faced a crises in relation to Dowry Deaths (or stove deaths, as they were known) in the 80s. This resulted in a change to the Indian Penal Code. Now, if memory serves me correctly, if a newly married woman dies in unnatural circumstances within the first 7 years of her marriage, the burden of proving that they did not murder her falls upon the woman`s husband or in-laws.
I know it sounds a bit harsh. Especially shifting the presumption of proof. But the English concept of innocent until proven guilty in one of many possible burdens of truth. For example, in the French Civil System, an accused is guilty until he proves his innocence.
I think we need something like the amended Indian Penal Code here in Pakistan. Sherry Rehman`s Women`s Empowerment Bill, 2003 - now before the National Assembly as a private member`s bill - has such a clause (where the burden to prove innocence is moved to the girl`s family if there is suspicion of murder in the name of honor). I know that such a bill may not have an effect in the villages and hamlets of Pakistan - where fuedal law still reigns supreme - but at least it`s a step in the right direction.
Rafay Alam
You are correct. Even if the murder of a girl in the name of honor is lodged as an FIR, there is nothing stopping say, the girl`s parents would be able to forgive the accused.
I know that India faced a crises in relation to Dowry Deaths (or stove deaths, as they were known) in the 80s. This resulted in a change to the Indian Penal Code. Now, if memory serves me correctly, if a newly married woman dies in unnatural circumstances within the first 7 years of her marriage, the burden of proving that they did not murder her falls upon the woman`s husband or in-laws.
I know it sounds a bit harsh. Especially shifting the presumption of proof. But the English concept of innocent until proven guilty in one of many possible burdens of truth. For example, in the French Civil System, an accused is guilty until he proves his innocence.
I think we need something like the amended Indian Penal Code here in Pakistan. Sherry Rehman`s Women`s Empowerment Bill, 2003 - now before the National Assembly as a private member`s bill - has such a clause (where the burden to prove innocence is moved to the girl`s family if there is suspicion of murder in the name of honor). I know that such a bill may not have an effect in the villages and hamlets of Pakistan - where fuedal law still reigns supreme - but at least it`s a step in the right direction.
Rafay Alam
#48 Posted by jay on November 29, 2003 6:27:12 am
Pak reality,
Four pakistani brothers have been convicted in australia for gang rape, and their defence, they are unaware of the aussie legal system, as they are from NWFP of pakistan. They naturally assumed that the laws are same. Their father, a doctor has slammed the conviction as attack on islam.
Obviously the brothers could have killed the girls and called it honour killing. The pak apologists like dost mitter beleve that lahore is tribal area, samia sarwars mother is a doctor and father a prominant business man in lahore, and all that happened in the killing of samia sarwar was the application of tribal law. It is interesting to note that there are honour killing supporters every where and it should be the punjabi commonality that tahmed talks about.
Four pakistani brothers have been convicted in australia for gang rape, and their defence, they are unaware of the aussie legal system, as they are from NWFP of pakistan. They naturally assumed that the laws are same. Their father, a doctor has slammed the conviction as attack on islam.
Obviously the brothers could have killed the girls and called it honour killing. The pak apologists like dost mitter beleve that lahore is tribal area, samia sarwars mother is a doctor and father a prominant business man in lahore, and all that happened in the killing of samia sarwar was the application of tribal law. It is interesting to note that there are honour killing supporters every where and it should be the punjabi commonality that tahmed talks about.
#47 Posted by MantoLives on November 28, 2003 9:58:34 pm
Romair...
Nobody is blaming the mullahs.. but the honor killing is prevalent in NWFP also.
You make an interesting point about kin and close relatives being forgiven by the `wali`... this is because Islam has pervaded into the legal code. It is through Qisas and Diyat ordinance I believe....
Because of Islam and Islamic law ... Murder is a tort in Pakistan and not a crime... tsk tsk...
What say you?
-YLH
Nobody is blaming the mullahs.. but the honor killing is prevalent in NWFP also.
You make an interesting point about kin and close relatives being forgiven by the `wali`... this is because Islam has pervaded into the legal code. It is through Qisas and Diyat ordinance I believe....
Because of Islam and Islamic law ... Murder is a tort in Pakistan and not a crime... tsk tsk...
What say you?
-YLH
#46 Posted by Romair on November 28, 2003 9:26:00 pm
Rafay_Alam:
A legal question:
Don`t honor killing offenders get acquited, because they are usually a close relative of the viticm. And the victim is always killed with the consent of the next of kin. And according to some law, the next of kin has the right to forgive the killer. For example, the mother kills her daughter and the father forgives the mother, since they were both in it together.
Honor killings are, generally, a feudal custom. For some reason, the maulvis keep getting all the blame for them. They are most prominent in the areas ruled by parties like PPP and PML and their stallwarts. There is more chance of an honor killing occuring in the constituency of Amin Fahim (head of PPP) or Jamali (PML Prime Minister) that in the constituency of Qazi Hussain (head of Jamaat-i-Islami).
A legal question:
Don`t honor killing offenders get acquited, because they are usually a close relative of the viticm. And the victim is always killed with the consent of the next of kin. And according to some law, the next of kin has the right to forgive the killer. For example, the mother kills her daughter and the father forgives the mother, since they were both in it together.
Honor killings are, generally, a feudal custom. For some reason, the maulvis keep getting all the blame for them. They are most prominent in the areas ruled by parties like PPP and PML and their stallwarts. There is more chance of an honor killing occuring in the constituency of Amin Fahim (head of PPP) or Jamali (PML Prime Minister) that in the constituency of Qazi Hussain (head of Jamaat-i-Islami).
#45 Posted by MantoLives on November 28, 2003 11:24:18 am
rafay
I was about mention grave and sudden provocation but I refrained from it so as to not confuse the issue...
The question is that would grave and sudden provocation be a defence... if a person was gravely and suddenly provoked on Monday and committed the murder on Tuesday?
And can a person be gravely and suddenly provoked in matters pertaining to relations other than wife? sister , mother? cousin?
I was about mention grave and sudden provocation but I refrained from it so as to not confuse the issue...
The question is that would grave and sudden provocation be a defence... if a person was gravely and suddenly provoked on Monday and committed the murder on Tuesday?
And can a person be gravely and suddenly provoked in matters pertaining to relations other than wife? sister , mother? cousin?
#44 Posted by dost_mittar on November 28, 2003 11:21:54 am
rafay_alam:
The situation you describe is what I thought was happening; in other words, the society is so conditioned to certain lawless behaviour that the police wont even register FIRs. This is no different from the police not registering any case against murderers in case of communal riots.
The situation you describe is what I thought was happening; in other words, the society is so conditioned to certain lawless behaviour that the police wont even register FIRs. This is no different from the police not registering any case against murderers in case of communal riots.
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