Founding Mothers

RE:Rafay Alam......

When Congress was established in 1885 - I dont beileve Dominion was an agenda - it was a natural outgrowth of tha Arya and Brahmo Samaj movements for social and cultural reform..... ( education reform , Banning of social practices such as sati etc etc ) MOst of the INdian founders such as Naroji ( a mentor of Jinnah), Surendernath banejee, W. BONerjee , Justice Ranade, and M.M Maloviya (sp?) had strong urban roots and very little to do with the feudal aristocracy..... Congress`s left wing bent began much after the first world war and the the success of the Bosheviks ..... ( and quite possibly in the late 20`s - early 30`) - the beginning of the depresson era - when Socialism was at the height of its popularity in Europe and England .....- One can contrast the politics of MOtilal and jawaharlal Nehru to notice the changing of the idelogical guard......

If you look at the Origins of teh MUslim League - the founders seem to be an even more ecletic Bunch, Navab Mohsin ul Mulk and Nawab Viqar ul MUlk - were both Aligarh academics - ( The title Nawab was a recognition from the Nizam), Maluana Zafar Ali Khan - a populist but improvished newspaper publisher from LAhore and protege of MOhsin ul Mulk, Maluana MOhd ALi Jauhar - another populist firebrand , and Hakim Ajmal Khan of Delhi -the founder of Jamia MIllia and of course their financial backer Nawab Saleemullah of Dacca.....and later joined by the Aga Khan.

Their main focus was to oppose the change of official second language from Urdu to HIndi which was in place across Northern India........and to safeguard Muslim interests against the rising tide of perceieved HIndu nationalism....Remember the British were toppling the apple cart in both Muslim and HIndu majority areas to maintain a healthy rivalry.

THe Muslim League`s feudal bias is a much later phenomenon that was itiatied by Mr JInnah as a ruse to garner support of Muslim leadership in the feudal states of what now constitute Pakistan and the princely states .... wheras the banner of Islam was used to garner the more populist vote in Bengal and Central India......( i believe that was a late 30`s phenomenon)

yogiraj

Eid Mubarik...

Syed Ahmed,

Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books. .

I am myself surprised.. that when someone like Maulana Mohd. Ali Jauhar wrote the draft constitution of Muslim League, how could one accuse the AIML of being feudal response to Congress`s land reforms... especially since Congress didn`t take about Land reofms till much later.

The politics of urban Muslim intelligentsia allowed the League some success in UP 1937... but being spurned by Congress woke the league upto the reality of Muslim Majority provinces... and Islamic symbolism as a mobilizing technique to counter Congress` religious allies like JUH... Sikandar-Jinnah pact was a watershed moment as far as league`s flirtaton with the feudals is concerned.

Therefore Pakistan needs to be interpreted in context of this history. This was what my article Muslim League`s Politics (1937-1947) was all about.

were all ladies when they these started working on indian, pakistan forming, please say you thank

YLH & Manto,

we have not met, but its good to know you just the same.

Your articles sure are refreshingly different and on the fearless side so one

has to congratulate you on your honesty.

Have we thought of how we have regressed from 1947 to today?

I wonder if women will be allowed to go and replace flags now as they

have done in the past?

I hope that more people like you and your future wife will continue to come forward and

take up the cause of Pakistan.


But please be cautious as well as optimistic.


Best of luck to both of you


Ras H. siddiqui

mog

``were all ladies when they these started working on indian, pakistan forming, please say you thank``

Yes .... thankyou . How can a child forget the womb that bore it.

Ras,

Thankyou for your wishes.... you haven`t met me, but you met my better half :) and she thinks very highly of you. As a bullwark of the Pakistani American community in the bay area/North Calfornia you are well known even in Pakistan. And it is an honor to ge complimented by you so often.

Hope youcan come to Karachi/Lahore around the 21st/24th ....

-YLH

Manto/ rafay

The importance of samia sarwar case is that honour killing is not a crime in pakistan, no case was filed by the police simply because no crime has been committed. There is no other country other than some muslim countries in the middle east where this happens. YLH, the difference is significant because people like you cannot make the distinction between honor killing being not a crime in pakistan. For you this legitimacy is nothing killing is nothing, you have no intention and desire to make killing a crime in pakistan simply because it is per the book. Take it from me YLH, killing is a crime in india while killing a woman in pakistan is not, as long as it is termed as honour killing, so declared by a mullah.

rafay,

I am posting from memeory, and it was reported that the next day asma was arretsed for leading samia from the moral path. I do know that it was not a bill to criminalise honour killing, it was juat a resolution to condemn it, but it is significant that the senators asserted that honour killing is OK by not passing the resolution.

Jay:
Are you sure that the so-called honour killing is not a crime in Pakistan and not a crime that goes unpunished? I am saying this because, as far as I know, murder is a capital offense in Pakistan. Is there a special clause in the Pakistan criminal code which exempts honour killing from the provision of the criminal act relating to murder? If not, is it simply not a case of the tribal/clan codes taking precedence over the law of the land.

Jay,

Dost Mittar has pointed out something very important.

Sections 300-330 deal with offences against the human body... there is nothing that exempts honor killing as such.

Here is an important bit of info I missed

WOMAN PRESIDES
over parliament session

March 18 Begum Jehanara Shanawaz, the first woman member of former All India Muslim League and a senior parliamentarian, becomes the first Asian woman to preside over a parliament session

Re Syed Ahmad # 33

Thanks for the insight. I think you are correct.

I may reques you for some more information on this in the future.

Best regards,
Rafay Alam

Dost Mittar #39

You are right to say that the practice of Honor Killings are, in fact, fuedal custom. The Pak Penal Code recognizes murder as an offence, but also recognizes that self-defence and grave and sudden provacation are arguments which may mitigate against sentence, if not provide a water-tight defence. When argued in Court, an honor killing defence will have to prove that the murderer was in the grips of some sort of grave and sudden provacation. Usually catching one`s spouse, sister or mother in a ``compromising position`` will suffice. However, the Courts do not recognize the defence when there are elements of premeditated murder present (like buying a gun and waiting a week).

But Honor Killings go beyond the law. To be preceise, they fall below the threshold of the law. As far as an SHO posted, say, in Vehari, is concerned when a complaint of murder comes to him is whether it was ``justified`` or not. It`s a sad fact, but Pakistani men seem to think killing a woman who was, in any way, outside certain prescribed social norms (seen in the presence of a man) is totally justified. This is perhaps why so many honor killings are never reported. They never get past the Police Station`s doors.

Regards,
Rafay Alam

rafay_alam:
The situation you describe is what I thought was happening; in other words, the society is so conditioned to certain lawless behaviour that the police wont even register FIRs. This is no different from the police not registering any case against murderers in case of communal riots.

rafay

I was about mention grave and sudden provocation but I refrained from it so as to not confuse the issue...

The question is that would grave and sudden provocation be a defence... if a person was gravely and suddenly provoked on Monday and committed the murder on Tuesday?

And can a person be gravely and suddenly provoked in matters pertaining to relations other than wife? sister , mother? cousin?

Rafay_Alam:

A legal question:

Don`t honor killing offenders get acquited, because they are usually a close relative of the viticm. And the victim is always killed with the consent of the next of kin. And according to some law, the next of kin has the right to forgive the killer. For example, the mother kills her daughter and the father forgives the mother, since they were both in it together.

Honor killings are, generally, a feudal custom. For some reason, the maulvis keep getting all the blame for them. They are most prominent in the areas ruled by parties like PPP and PML and their stallwarts. There is more chance of an honor killing occuring in the constituency of Amin Fahim (head of PPP) or Jamali (PML Prime Minister) that in the constituency of Qazi Hussain (head of Jamaat-i-Islami).

Romair...

Nobody is blaming the mullahs.. but the honor killing is prevalent in NWFP also.

You make an interesting point about kin and close relatives being forgiven by the `wali`... this is because Islam has pervaded into the legal code. It is through Qisas and Diyat ordinance I believe....

Because of Islam and Islamic law ... Murder is a tort in Pakistan and not a crime... tsk tsk...

What say you?

-YLH

Pak reality,

Four pakistani brothers have been convicted in australia for gang rape, and their defence, they are unaware of the aussie legal system, as they are from NWFP of pakistan. They naturally assumed that the laws are same. Their father, a doctor has slammed the conviction as attack on islam.

Obviously the brothers could have killed the girls and called it honour killing. The pak apologists like dost mitter beleve that lahore is tribal area, samia sarwars mother is a doctor and father a prominant business man in lahore, and all that happened in the killing of samia sarwar was the application of tribal law. It is interesting to note that there are honour killing supporters every where and it should be the punjabi commonality that tahmed talks about.