The Most Ineffective Ban Ever

Gaurav:

welcome to chowk:)

put the six figure advance on your novel on hold...first see if you can reduce this to under 900 words or less from the present 1709...most times less is more...the point you want(ed) to make is somewhat lost...

rgds,

t

This article seems based more on Indian propoganda, and a lack of knowledge about Pakistan (common amongst nearly all Indians) rather than on the actual situation on the ground in Pakistan.

Indian movies in Pakistan sell about as openly as tomatoes, potatoes and gunnas.

Go to any corner, in any remote area of Pakistan, and you will find a mosque and an Indian video store. Maulvis will complain about a lot of things, but rarely about two things: Indian videos and cricket.

Mohallas in Karachi, Lahore, Pindi etc. have not tens but hundreds of Indian video shops. VCRs to watch Indian videos used to be the big jihaiz item in marriages in all area. The number of $300 million may be a bit low, since Indian movies are probably the biggest source of entertainment in Pakistan.

Sadaf is just one distributor. There are many more. They used to intiially come from Dubai. Now they are local. Everyone and their grandmother has a video shop. And the quality has gone up significantly. It is a full fledged industry now.

Just to give you and idea, Zia-ul-Haq`s favorite actor was Shatru Sinha, whom he invited as a guest. Zia-ul-Haq for (some strange reason) gave the highest Pakistanis civilian honor to Dilip Kumar. As I have mentioned before, every military station I stayed at had an Indian video store in the station, or right outside. In one major combat base in Karachi, the video store was right next to the mess hall. When my friends used to sit on alert duty at night, for flying, there entertainment in their underground rooms, used to be Indian movies. When we graduated from PAF college Sargodha as cadets, we had an official farwell picnic. VCRs were new at that time. The entertainment was two Indian movies. If I remember correcly it was Sunny Deola and Amrita Singh`s first movie, with the, ``Jub hum jawant hoongay`` song. I had predicted that Sunny Deol would be a flop, and Armita Sing would be a hit. Turned out to be the other way around.

Indian videos are officially pirated in Pakistan, not because of mullahs or anyone else (ever hear a mullah attack an Indian video shop in Pakistan), but because they do not officially pass through the Pakistani censors. However, practically they are at every street corner in the open.

As for showing Indian movies on the big screen in Pakistan, the biggest problem is that they will put the Pakistani movie industry completely out of business. It won`t be competition, it will be complete bankruptcy. Hence they will not be allowed.

Unfortunately what does seem to be happening now, is that Indian movies are fully in anti-Pakistan propoganda mode. I saw an Indian filmfare awards show, in which prominent Indian actors and actresses openly abused Pakistan, while accepting awards. There seems to be a whole field of Indian movies with open abuse of Pakistan: Ghadar, Pukar, Mission Kashmir, etc. etc. However even those movies do booming business in Pakistan.

Pakistanis are very open about all things Indian, that are good. And I think we do a good job of separating the good and bad that comes from India. However, I rarely see any of my Indian colleagues who have ever seen anything Pakistani, or know about anything Pakistani, while they lived in India. All their knowledge (like this article) seems to be the official Indian govt. line). Perhaps it is Indians who need to start opening up to things Pakistani; not vice-versa.

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``Partition occurred on the basic premise that we are two (!!) nations merely on the basis of religion.``

Ha ha, to make a convincing argument, you can`t simply get away by using the word `merely`. Said difference is a BIG difference.

``The cultural roots of the subcontinent Muslims were largely ignored by this theory. The theory is perpetuated by the establishment in Pakistan, which tries to Arab-ise the country.``

This is crazy talk. I don`t know what it is about some people, but every time any Muslim mentions Islam, there`s automatically talk of some Arab imperalism (last attempt ended several hundred years ago, and no, Saudi`s don`t count since they always acted as American proxy).

What is it about Indo-pak Islam that seems so arabized? Our dress, language (Urdu), food? We can`t even say ``ramadan`` properly! Ha ha...we are un-hinduized, but that doesn`t make us arabized. And we like it that way. So get over it.

Anyhow, Indian movies were banned because of recent political tensions...I personally thnk they should stay banned because they`re formulaic nonsense. However, one would hope that Pakistanis would fill the void with something better.

What is it with Indian cinema and their non-diversity? For once I would like to see a good Indian Sci-fi...no doubt all those high tech types could help out with the special effects. But space or the matrix is no place to support some dumb song-and-dance number, so I guess that`s out of the question.

It is true that Bollywood is losing out on revenue...but Bollywood film makers themselves do not respect intellectual property rights of Hollywood, European or any other film maker...they keep churing ``inspired`` versions of other people`s work without paying royalties... then what right does Bollywood have to b!tch when others do the same...in a way it is good that Mahesh Bhatt, Subhash Ghai and their ilk lose money...then people with creative talent who do not depend on glitz-glamor or rehashed bullsh!t can make movies that can give some meaning to the word cinema.

A lot of good points mentioned, but you failed to mention the continued ban of Pakistani channels by the Indian government too. Also, what about the stopping of any sort of banning by either country, as being counter productive. Just because a ban can be violated doesn`t mean that, THAT is the only ban that should be considered to be superfluous and not beneficial.

Other than that, I don`t see how mentioning the Indian government`s claim and Musharaf`s denial brings any strength to your argument, infact it takes away from it.

romair, let me explain you some things which have escaped your attention.

most of what you wrote about how indian films are openly accepted in pakistan is redundant. that is why my article is titled ``the most ineffective ban``

i know pakistani people are open about indian things. i am just criticisng the establishment and the clergy.

Unfortunately what does seem to be happening now, is that Indian movies are fully in anti-Pakistan propoganda mode.

hello!!! india makes hundreds of movies every year, of which barely a handful, like the ones you mentioned, dwell on pakistan. dont you think your statement is a sweeping generalisation?

However, I rarely see any of my Indian colleagues who have ever seen anything Pakistani, or know about anything Pakistani, while they lived in India. All their knowledge (like this article) seems to be the official Indian govt. line). Perhaps it is Indians who need to start opening up to things Pakistani; not vice-versa.

we are not ``closed`` to anything pakistani. PTV world is shown here, it was banned only during the kargil war, which is very obvious. indians appreciate anything pakistani that is good. junoon, nusrat, adnan sami, ghulam ali, mehdi hassan, strings......all make ``legitimate`` money in india. rest of the things are not good enough so we dont see them.

savvy?

it is a pleasure to be here, temporal :)

i wrote the article to post it on my blog and on dialognow, another Indo-Pak forum I have been a part of for over as year. Did not know chowk`s word limit till then. However I am grateful to them for publishing this piece nevertheless. Any future articles will not exceed 1000 words.

can`t edit it again sorry. am too lazy. would be willing to accept a 5-figure or 4-figure advance as a punishment for this laziness.

gaurav,

i`m totally against bans on imported pop culture, whoever might be imposing them. i am, however, in favour of banning the songs in most indian movies. the pelvic gyrations give me a headache each time. any chances of the indian govt banning silly dances? prolly not, even pakistani movies have to have a number of songs or they wont be movies. and they`re equally silly (the dancing anyway, both nations are musically talented) also, what measures is the indian govt taking to clean up bollywood funding? according to the papers here, lots of shady underworld people fund indian blockbusters. and lots of sleazy people dominate pakistani visual media as well. uff the similarities...

shandana

I am sorry to say but the writer is under the illusion that its only the Mullahs who believe in the two nation theory, and the public outrightly reject it.....Pakistani`s dont treat Indians coming to Pakistan in the manner the indians treat us, when we are there....They humiliate us at the airports.....follow us around......make us wait for hours. I personally came to Believe in the two nation theory when i saw the Babri masjid Shaheed incident live on tv....When your so called secular police was standing and watching gleefully.....the reasons the mullah`s protest on Indian shows is that because the present day indian soaps have bhajans and poojas going on in half their running time....The Mullahs wants the Muslim children who see this program to avoid gaining any relevance to Shri Ram and bla bla....culture....After all we are Muslims in majority, and we have every right to protect our children from a pseudo culture produced on tv which is hardly followed back in india as well........Further More the TV operas on majority shows extra maritial affairs, illegitimate children, fighting over fathers estates......``bhabis`` fighting each other.....getting each others children killed......Now its not only Pakistan...but also the Indians who should avoid development of tolerance to such culture

Vertex

I am a critc of the TNT, not on ideological, but logistical and operational issues. While on religious grounds, one may say that Hindus and Muslims are two nations, the logistical difficulties of separating them were too enormous. Crores of Hindus and Muslims lived cheek by jowl, and separating them into 2 big cuntries was a fantasy. It is not like Israel where a few million Jews were relocated. The sheer size as well as the populations of the two proposed nations and the complexity with which these ``nations`` were interspersed is what made the TNT unviable.

If the Two Nation Theory was on the basis of religion/ethnicity AND geography, it would have worked.

That it did not work is evident by the fact that the nation it created houses less than 1/3rd of the people for whose sake it was created, i.e the subcontinent`s Muslims.

The subcontinent is either one nation....call it India, south asia, whatever...........or it is 40 different nations. It is NOT two or three nations.

The ideal way would have been for a loose federal set-up with each province having autonomy with only defence and foreign affairs centralised. But that did not work.

Which is why I do not blame only Jinnah & the league, but Nehru and the congress as well, for the partition.

I have always believed that while religion can serve as a very powerful tool to divide people, it is just not powerful enough to unite them into nationhood. Otherwise all lands between Morocco and Multan would have been one country.

About the other things, you misunderstand me. The subcontinent`s Islam is NOT Arabised. I am saying an effort is on to make it so and it should be stopped.

This year the MMA government in 2 provinces banned the celebration of Basant, a festival celebrated in the subcontinent for thousands of years, on the grounds that it was unislamic. now please dont reply giving me details of basant celebrations and how most pakistanis love flying kites then. i know all that. i am criticising the handful of gun-wielders or beard-wielders who are trying to make the liberal Pakistani society fundamentalist, like in the Arab world.

Most of you say they won`t succeed. I hope you are right, but I continue to be concerned.

Dear Gaurav,

While your article doesn`t reflect it (its more of the we indians are so much better than you pakis... mentality).... you have a sound understanding of the events albeit from a more indian point of view, reading your interacts.

``If the Two Nation Theory was on the basis of religion/ethnicity AND geography, it would have worked.``

If you read the text of the Lahore Resolution which doesn`t mention Islam by the way... you will see that this train of thought is effectively reflected.

Moreover you will also no doubt appreciate that the argument s forwarded by Jinnah (in the last part of his life) were more intune with India is Not One nation and not that India has two nations... so the so called `tnt` does not irrevocably say that this is it no more nations... but is only countering the One Nation idea. (That is why Indira`s proud barak was a joke)

Furthermore you will no doubt also acknowledge that those clamoring for the ban on Indian entertainment products (mullahs and the military estabishment as you have pointed out) had historically a role against the Pakistan movement and not for it. Mullahas were allied with the Congress... and the Military had its own axe to grind given its own predisposition to a United India ... And while you have pointed out that the Congress had rejected the idea of a confederal India, you have failed to mention that Jinnah and the league had accepted it.


-YLH

#Indian culture, or rather the South Asian culture that India has embraced is a dynamic one, which combines traditional values with modern ideas inspired from the west.

Well I wouldnt be hasty enough to say that. The majority of films coming out of Bollywood are not really reflective of contemporary Indian culture if there be such a beast. It is projectionist at best and a parody at the worst.

#However these bans show how miserably they have failed to Arab-ise the subcontinent.

Maybe they *are* different. Who can say. You and I have never been there. Maybe they are more ``arabic``, whatever that means. And perhaps happy that way too. Entirely possible that their cultural mores are different from ours. That a film that gets a ``U/A`` here will never get past the censors there.

A statement like this smells of cultural imperialism - I mean how can we make claims about what Pakistanis are really like unless we interact more closely with them in the first place? But the majority of us will never get that chance - atleast not for the next 10 years.

Good article gaurav.

We Indians never invade with swords. We invade with culture and concur.

RE # 11 ``Crores of Hindus and Muslims lived cheek by jowl, and separating them into 2 big cuntries was a fantasy``
fantasy of ``cuntries``? Freudian slip?
Sigh! Another lecture from a superior Indian.
-
Scott

The ONLY smart thing the Pakistani government has done is to ban Indian movies.

If the Indian government has any brains, they would do the same thing - ban INDIAN movies.

We have reached Six Sigma in one segment: 99.9999% of Indian movies are CRAP.

As regards paying for Indian movies....forget it!!! why should the Pakistanis enrich their enemies- they would prefer to pay for the low quality VCD and enrich the local pirates - it is a small sacrifice that they can make for their fellow pirates.
Atleast the local mafiiaso and pirates would be then able to p,lough back the a part of the booty into the jehadi mafiaso- who would further provide protection for their piracy, charas, ganja, counterfeiting, tax evasion, boot legging--
Man !!! the cycle is vicious and PAkistan is deeply in this sh*t logic.

I think that the article’s analysis is incomplete. There is much more at stake than financial losses to the Bombay film industry. Pirated videos of Indian movies do not merely vie for Pakistani market share with the competition, such as it is, from Lollywood; they also eat into the mind-share for PTV and state-run media. The latter is notoriously a channel for state propaganda especially as it relates to India and the ‘core issue’ of Kashmir. Anything that challenges the Pakistan government’s control over the dissemination of images of India is a matter of grave concern to the ruling establishment of an ideological state.

The following article: A strange kind of nationalism does a good job of explaining the wider context of PEMRA’s continuing ban on Indian cable channels.

I also doubt that the major or most serious opposition to open dissemination of Indian pop culture comes from mullahs. In this day and age, poorly schooled mullahs cannot really stand up to people with more substantial modern educations. My guess is that the real opposition comes from state ideologues and the military, who have found in Islam a convenient vehicle for their own authoritarian and anti-democratic goals. These worthies would have no qualms about banning Indian media for the general public while watching it in military cantonments and their own homes (a cause for bitter complaint in letters to Pakistani newspapers, BTW).

shandana and durman

firstly, i am not saying only mullahs believe TNT. i accept the fact that there was a wide acceptance for TNT at partition time, as shown by the result of the Muslim League in the elections. ironically, mullahs then were opposed to the two nation theory. :)

and u know why u r followed, durman? u think pakistanis were always followed? it happens because a few pakistanis (not most, few) have come to india like you have, and then committed acts of terrorism. sheikh omar saeed, who is in pakistani jails for murdering daniel pearl, is an excellent example. now if he said ``oh i am a rich sophisticated paki educated in london school of econ, why should anyone follow me?`` you would believe him. but this man was responsible for the kidnapping of foreigners in india and it was only serendipitously that he was arrested.

i know that the troublemakers are only say 1% of the pakistanis who come to india. but there is no test to find out who these 1% are, hence the surveilance.

now about banning entertainment

who are you or the government to decide what is right or what is wrong? leave it to the people. if people dislike pelvic gyrations, bhajans and extramarital affairs, they will just not watch it. if they want to watch it, what right do you have to stop them? you have a right to regulate the entertainment only of your own children. so you can just block indian channels in ur home.

a state supported ban smacks of dictatorial spirit. and let me tell you, the indian government, though less gulilty, has shown similar tendencies of bannign stuff, like FTV.

forcible bans will not stop the influence of ``pseudo culture`` because such bans are ineffective.

Fosa..........is that english you have written in?*confused*

Siyam, I am afraid you have wrong info. There is NO ban on pakistani channels in India. There was a ban only for a few months during the Kargil war, something you can easily appreciate I hope. You do not broadcast enemy propaganda during a war. Even today, my television has PTV World, and often I switch to it to admire how pretty the fresh scrubbed women on it look. :)

What I mentioned are not merely Indian government`s claims. The facts about Dawood have been published by magazines in pakistan and last month, a minister of the Sindh government mentioned him as being involved in the bomb blast in a commercial complex. Musharraf`s barefaced denial, and his propensity to lie on every issue reduces his credibility. I mean come on. If you dont want to hand him over, give the proper reason, i e ``we have no extradition treaty with india. yes, we have handed over people to america through unofficial channels, but india doesnt do enough for us to warrant those kinda concessions``. Why lie saying he is not there in the country? That is just diplomatic stupidity.

So if tomorrow the Indian government asks pakistan to stop piracy of indian movies, instead of giving the proper reason i e ``why should we? we have no treaty with you, nor have we granted you mfn status to do so.``, they are sure to say ``there aint no piracy of indian movies in pakistan``

that is why i mentioned it and i dont see how it takes away anything from my argument.

kabuliwala, i do not represent bollywood here. so i am not going to defend its plagiaristic tendencies, since i abhor them too. however one wonders why pakistanis watch the rehashed bullshit when they have legal access to the original hollywood or european cinema. english or iranian movies should just be dubbed in urdu and shown in pakistan if you think that originality will sell more.

read this yesterday on the unplugged posted by adnan_rafiq...has so much truth in it...will post it here...for all of us to benefit;)

---

A stranger was seated next to Little Johnny on the plane.

The stranger turned to Little Johnny and said, ``Let`s talk. I`ve heard that flights will go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.``

Little Johnny, who had just opened his book, closed it slowly, and said to the stranger, ``What would you like to discuss?``

Oh, I don`t know,`` said the stranger. ``How about nuclear power?``

``OK,`` said Little Johnny.. ``That could be an interesting topic. But let me ask you a question first..

A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you suppose that is?``

``Jeez,`` said the stranger. ``I have no idea.``

``Well, then,`` said Little Johnny, ``how is it that you feel qualified to discuss nuclear power when you don`t know shit?``

``What is common to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka? ``

i think its the eating of pan-supari. i guess, in western pakistan pan is not eaten.

Movie industries in Bangladesh & Pakistan don’t want their government to allow Indian movies. It is hard for them with technologies they have, to copy a movie directly from Hollywood. So they wait for India to make those copies and is then gets re encoded in Bang/Pak in their native way, of course with censoring the Holly/Bollywood orgies. “Mene Piayr kia, ‘Piayr kia to darna kiya’ are inspiring teenagers not to ‘darr’ing any more an ending up into miserable situation causing havocs in local societies where free sex and wines are not valued as a mean to progress. ‘Kama Sutra’ worried California’s P industries, and we were worried of what would happen if a nation of billion people would accept that as a piece of national culture.

As for Mullah’s, I believe they are found of Indian movies, but for other cause. They are hitting people with proves how a nations collective moral & ethical values goes down when movie directors and actor becomes the model/leader of progression and dictates it.

We already have some local garbage cause us to do silly things. We are trying hard (Musharraf & Khaleda) to get rid of British left ideology; extreme Mullah’s and trying constantly to defend ourselves from the hammering of a dehumanizing corrupt pagan regime. We usually are at odds with our government ministries, but at least in this case thanks to our Cultural Ministry to spare us with one less Nationalized garbage. So many can choose what is beneficiary or not.

As for piracy & economic loss of India! She is lucky that US and Spanish government are not suing for copyright protection of their movies and software.

shobuz:
``As for Mullah’s, I believe they are found of Indian movies, but for other cause. They are hitting people with proves how a nations collective moral & ethical values goes down when movie directors and actor becomes the model/leader of progression and dictates it.``
For once, I would have to agree with the mullahs. Fashions and attitudes in India are hugely influenced by Bollywood. Back in the fifties, hardly any North Indian had heard of mangal-sutra; now every panjabi woman has one, thanks to Indian films; same about karva chauth which has been made into a big glamourous thing whereas it was mainly a solemn custom observed by Panjabi-Rajasthani women. And these are the benign examples. Go to any Indian ``cultural`` function these days and you are bound to see the re-enactment of the current vulgar hit song-dance numbers from bolloywood, often by adolescent children doing so under the proud gaze of their parents. In India, life imitates art and art imitates hollywood!

Issue: Indian Fire Power

Indian: We will build 10 A bmb
Pakistani: We will build 15 A bmb

Indian: We have 20 A bmb
Pakistani: We have 15 A bmb

Indian: We have 50 A bmb
Pakistani: We have 15 A bmb

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Gaurav,

``Bollywood`` Does this sound genuine to anyone ?

First let me say I am against piracy, having said that you should know it is not being done without Indians selling the prints to Pakistanis. Both are equally responsible.

Second, you should have done some research before writing this article, I suppose piracy of ``Hollywood`` movies is fine in India but don`t you dare pirate Bollywood (the name bollywoood it self is not genuine...what are you talking about). A very good example that I can give you is go to http://www.indiatimes.com/ , there you will find frequent ads about Hollywood`s movies on VCDs. Hollywood does not release movies on VCD`s.

At least on this issue I see both Indians and Pakistanis in bed with each other when it comes to piracy.


#13 by saminshah on November 21, 2003 7:09am PT

Your comments lacks experience in life and speak poorly on your observation skills.

I have yet to see culture and life style presented in most Indian movies anywhere but in movies, Indian movies are mostly junk and insult viewers when it comes to their intelligence.

gaurav,

was kidding about banning pelvic gyrations, how will south asian culture survive if we do? plus, i cant even ban my kid from the kitty litter tray so i have no illusions about my power to influence popular culture.

have sadly concluded that indians have no sense of humour...

shandana

#27 by kaurasach

My answers to your numbers..

#1- btw- what is local store for you ? you are missing the point, men will watch any color women dancing vulgarly or showing some skin, they like it for many sexual reasons, does it matter - its universal. Yes, Indian movies may have bigger reach..

#2- They are lying, they watching it for sexual gratification.

#3- #2 applies here too.... sexual desires are stronger compare to religious restrictions

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Dost-mittar #24,

Have you had a chance to see Pinjar ? I was wondering how you felt about it.

#28 by shandana

got that one right!

plats8:
...not yet, but plan to!

Bollywood`s beau Rajnikant`s greatest moments:

Rajnikant suffers from a brain tumor which, according to the doctors can`t be cured and his death is imminent. Then, in one of the fights, our great Rajnikant is shot in the head. The bullet passes thru his head taking away the tumor along with it and he is cured. Long Live Rajni.

---

In another movie, Rajnikant is confronted with 2 gangsters. Rajnikant has a gun but unfortunately only one bullet. Guess, what he does? He holds a knife in his hand and shoots the bullet towards the knife. The knife cuts the bullet in 2 pieces and kills both the gangsters. Then Rajnikant says, ``Apun ka naam hai HIRA, Apun ne sabko Chiraa``.

---

In one of the other movies, Rajnikant is chased by a gangster. Apne Rajnikant ke paas gun hai par goli nahi hai. Guess, what he does? He waits for the gangster to shoot. As soon as the gangster shoots, Rajnikant opens the bullet compartment of his gun and catches the bullet. Then, he closes the bullet compartment and fires his gun. Bang Bang.... And the gangster dies.....

---

In yet another movie, our Rajnikant is put in a jail and he is wearing a cap.... then in the cell he looks around and suddenly puts his finger in a wall (uses his finger as drill machine)
makes a hole .. then takes pen out of his pocket puts the pen in the hole .. Then he takes off his Cap and hangs it on the pen .... style hai bhai ...

---

And finally, his greatest moment of all time is when he is lyin on the back of a tonga gathered around by the bullies, waiting for them to attack him, a fly sits on his nose. He catches the fly in his fist and throws it in his mouth and says ``tum sab ko bhee aisee kacha chaba jaaonga..``

DEAR GAURAV, IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE SO PROUD OF?

vertex #3 and some others.

You folks are urting sentiments of very large number of people. After watchin yet onother bad bollywood movie i went in to deep introspection: why do i do it? then i realized that i must be a true fan.. so all you cultural-elitists bashers, shame on you for hurting sentiments of a majority community of the true faithful! i am getting mr Ghai to issue a fatwa on you folks

#32 by kaurasach

you said..``They are not all men, about 1/2 are women. and they get older movies too which don`t provide a lot of `sexual gratification`

Typical desi response, do you think women have no sexual desires? they dont get stimulated visually? maybe not as much as men but come on...

My answer was based on general observartion, not on corner cases like black and white, even black and white had some appeal to it, people in those days probably got the same gratification out of it what we get from color movies today. think in the context and you will understand my point.


Admit or not our life revolves around sex, just take a look at things around us...key and a lock, thread and a needle...everything f$%^& in its own way.......you want me to go on ?

#36 by Joyelle

Like I said before Bollywood`s movies INSULT viewers intelligence.

Why not read a book!

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Arjun - JALA JALA TAPA TAPAA!

Vertex:

``to make a convincing argument, you can`t simply get away by using the word `merely`. Said difference is a BIG difference. ``

Apparently 130 million Muslims seem to disagree with you. I haven`t seen any large scale refugee movement to Pakistan. You can dream up your own myths but don`t pass it on as truth for us.

Dost-mittar #33,

I would be quite interested in hearing your take on the movie. I watched it last night.
The storyline is very interesting, the acting nice as well but the direction seemed
weak.

Kawa Chala hans ki chaal aur apni chaal bhi bhool gaya

Is what going to happen to indian culture if they dont stop imitating western culture.

By wearing low rise jeans and short tops does not make one gora. It is not an indicator of Indian culture progressing in any way by producing movies like Jism or Jogger`s Park.

Piracy is bad and it should be stopped.

Can a RSS/Hindutva thug write about anything without mentioning ``TNT`` and ``Partition``? The topic is piracy of Indian movies in Pakistan but the writer has to include, TNT, Musharraf, Islam, Shariah, even Quran in this piece of drivel.

Gaurav, the next time your blood boils when you see a Made in Pakistan VCD in Lucknow, go rip a pregnant muslim woman or burn her child or something. As far as your dream of travelling on the Korakoram highway is concerned, please note that chaddi wallahs are not welcome.

#36 by Joyelle

C`mmon...Leave poor rajni alone....Rajni kanth is da bomb diggidy!!! :)
while reading ur comments...i was actually picturing him doing that and it brought a big smile on my face...made my othewise a dull day interesting!
Thanks!!

Are there any good XXX movies being produced in India?

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re: ali1

{Gaurav, the next time your blood boils when you see a Made in Pakistan VCD in Lucknow, go rip a pregnant muslim woman or burn her child or something. }

...he can do that while you toss a bomb into some shia mosque after you`ve tossed one into a church....

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pardaisi #26

I agree that a lot of piracy goes on India as well. In fact a lot of piracy of Hindi movies happens in India as well. The issue is not who is guilty of piracy.
And by the way the CDs sold through indiatimes are legitimate CDs. They all have censor certification from the GoI and are released through official channels. That is not to say that you dont get pirated Holywood VCDs, but those sold through indiatimes are genuine.

shandana #28,

whoops, now see what i have done to my countrymen`s image in Pakistan! *worried look*. Haha, sorry to have missed the jocular intent in your comment. My excuse is that I am new to chowk and the printed word only conveys so much.

joyelle #36

you too have missed the point. all the pakistanis are telling me how crappy bollywood movies are. i personally watch and appreciate only 3-4% of the movies released every year. as pardaisi said, better read a book. now if they are so crappy, why do you people watch them? sexual gratification is such a lame excuse, because porn is available very freely, even desi porn. how is attacking hindi movies adding anything to the argument? shandana, help me make a generalisation of pakistanis please ;).

ali #43

whoa, i am a hindutva guy now!! that IS funny. you should re-read the part where I have mentioned islam, quran and shariah. i have never said anything derogatory about those things. i said that the mullah types who think life is all about these things, are deluded. as someone said before, sexual attractions are stronger than religious teachings. TNT and partition, I had to mention, cos it is where the roots of this thing lie, and Musharraf is your President for god`s sake.
and yes ali, there are xxx movies being made in india. contact your nearest video pirate, or even google for it. i dont know if you will find them ``good`` though. because everyone seems to have only bad things to say about indian movies. i wonder if people who watch hindi movies in pakistan even exist on chowk.

general comment

Sadly, there is a lot more acrimony here than I have been used to on dialognow. People don`t seem to respect each other. And both Indians and Pakistanis are doing this, taking cheap shots at each other, then getting into unwinnable arguments. I wonder if this is really helping both people understand each other or giving them a new ground to battle. Very sad. I claim to be no expert on Pakistan. I read 3-4 papers there for the past few years and have a few close friends with whom I interact regularly (they are IN Pakistan, not abroad). So what I write may have many flaws which I hope to correct and learn more about Pakistan. I am neither the chaddiwalah, nor am I the candle-holding peacenik, but am somewhere in between. Thanks to these interacts I realised that the reason for the ban is more protectionist than cultural. However if protecting the lohore film industry is the purpose, then it does not solve the problem either, because piracy happens anyway. in the true spirit of globalisation, why not just accept that movies are soemthing you need to import. pakistan can export music, is already doing so. many singers are phenomenal.

a lot of the diatribe i got, i am not used to. I hope that very soon I can separate the wheat from the chaff and interact only with people interested in conversation and not confrontation. I have already detected 2-3 such individuals. :)

Ali_1:

``Are there any good XXX movies being produced in India? ``

Dude, don`t even pretend that you are not familiar with www.desibaba.com

fountainheader,

``I am a critc of the TNT, not on ideological, but logistical and operational issues. While on religious grounds, one may say that Hindus and Muslims are two nations, the logistical
difficulties of separating them were too enormous.``

Been there, done that. You are correct. Anyhow, the fact that they reside in the same nation doesn`t mean that each think of the other as the same ``peoples``. I think your concept of nation (personal) is different from mine (geopolitical unit). Is it really so bad to have a mutli-grouped nation-state?

``If the Two Nation Theory was on the basis of religion/ethnicity AND geography, it would have worked.``

The end result would have been clear, you mean. The validity of TNT is not challenged, though.

``The subcontinent is either one nation....call it India, south asia, whatever...........or it is 40 different nations. It is NOT two or three nations.``

From the prespective of any one group, it is: themselves, and everyone else. This doesn`t mean that one with this view is automatically unwilling to cooperate and cohabit with ``everyone`` else.

``I have always believed that while religion can serve as a very powerful tool to divide people, it is just not powerful enough to unite them into nationhood. Otherwise all lands between Morocco and Multan would have been one country.``

India is only one country because a foreign power wanted it to be that way. Over time, India established it`s own authority and enforces it with deadly force (visit Kashmir sometime...). This is how ``nations`` are kept together. Fact is, this unit of organization is not inherently natural to man/womankind. It needs some serious ``glue``, economic or military - but often both.

``This year the MMA government in 2 provinces banned the celebration of Basant, a festival celebrated in the subcontinent for thousands of years, on the grounds that it was unislamic. now please dont reply giving me details of basant celebrations and how most pakistanis love flying kites then. i know all that. i am criticising the handful of gun-wielders or beard-wielders who are trying to make the liberal Pakistani society fundamentalist, like in the Arab world.``

You are ignorant about the Arab world. Gun-wielders image was from American/Pakistani war against soviets in Afghanistan. Arabs don`t have that kind of problem, unless you`re talking about the Osama-hood and his band of not-so merry men. What do you have aganist beards, though? Jeez...

Basant was banned by Mullahs because it was thought to be a religious holiday of a non-Islamic faith. These pea-brains couldn`t understand the concept of secular holdiay, or in simple terms a holiday for the heck of it.

Anyhow, it has nothing to do with Arabs. Only two ``real`` holidays for (sunni) muslims are the two Eids. Indeed, if there truley was an Arabization drive, these Mullahs would be beating everyone over the head to make Arabic the national language, or something stupid like that. Give it a rest with that. You equate Islamic revivalism with Arab imperalism...that`s an old canard. A VERY old one. Yes, we Muslims no longer want to dive into the Ganges, our hearts are with the (CITIES) of mecca and Medina. Get over it...

``Most of you say they won`t succeed. I hope you are right, but I continue to be concerned.``

Worry about your own backyard. Banning Indian movies is hardly cause for concern with respect to what other ``civilized`` people are doing in the world.

Stuka,

``Apparently 130 million Muslims seem to disagree with you. I haven`t seen any large scale refugee movement to Pakistan. You can dream up your own myths but don`t pass it on as truth for us.``

Ha ha, tochy touchy. No one suggested that all Muslims share same political desires. Muslims in India have given it mindshare, we shall see if they were mistaken for their belief in India or not. They are there because they think it`s theirs. Quite simple, really.

This doesn`t change the fact that said difference is a BIG difference.

apu_m # 51

[I heard the US government is chartering iceland air jets to deport jihadi minded pakis like you...]

How are you doing Apu? I heard that the US government is raiding walmart to arrest # 2 US citizens like you. Be safe now; chowk needs its 3000 page hits from you every day.

Indian hegemony,

Pakistan is always afraid of indian hegemony, it does not want to be a vassel state of india. Well what did they do, they have become a colony of the US. There are six american bases in pakistan, FBI operates frrely, independant of pak military and police, recruits their own staff, every aspect of the pak budget is progressively under the US control.

Wait for the ameripakis, the ones with wheat complexion and crly hairs, tyhen you know that the fear of indians have finally delivered, literally.

#26 by pardaisi on November 21, 2003 9:03am PT

``Your comments lacks experience in life and speak poorly on your observation skills``

Are you think your mussi live in fool’s paradise to ban Indian movie in name of culture invasion. or r u live in fools paradise. man every film industry represent their country’s culture or mirror image. .this represent how that country’s ppl live ,what they wear, how they fight ,how they celebrate their festivals. one’s you visit Gujarat you forget bollywood’ s holy or dandiyaras the way here ppl celebrate these festivals. Visit collage of Bombay of ahmedabad you find thousand of salman or amir or ritik and girls with short skirts. man this is not land of pure or Pakistan. film industry is represent country’s mirror image not sunglass image. so your right hand you find in mirror is left hand but you believe this your image. now you said abt fighting bhabhis or so on.Man movies maker mad movie for commercial point of view so they have to mix some masala same way terminator or matrix don’t happen in day to day lives in America but after see that we get idea how Americans live or wear or speak or which festivals they enjoy.

man understand this we must have education no madressa one

stuka # 52

Emphasis is on ``good``. desibaba has latino models and/or Indian faces imposed on latino models. I think XXX is one area can where India/Bollywood can beat our guys in Van Nuys and Burbank.

Of course it will be a huge hit in Pakistan: most maulanas will miss a prayer to watch a B grade Indian heroine screwing a C grade Kala Khan.

so a lot of chowkies think that hindi movies are vulgar. my bet is they will say that they like movies and songs of the yester-year, because they had quality. most certainly, those movies (and songs..i have seen whole dance sequences copied from movies such as an american in paris) were also copied. so, it may be just that chowkies are getting old, and unable to enjoy simple things. even shakespere was considered somewhat vulgar and plagiarist in his times and now he is hi-brow. so maybe antiquity alone will raise the quality of hindi movies. in the meanwhile, the main consumer seems to like many of the movies, and the movie-wallas are striving to get the next big hit, and hopefully repeat the formula.

Gaurav, you walk like a duck, talk like a duck but insist that you are not one......

Ban on Indian movies has nothing to do with Islam or Sharia like a RSS wala with his head stuck in his saffronized rear side would believe. Its been there since `65, long before religion became a major factor in Pakistani politics. It helped our movie industry which peaked in the 70`s but went down during Zia`s Islamization. It has come back a bit since then. The new Pakistani movies show as much skin as Indian movies but otherwise they are as pathetic if not more.

As far as this ``cultural invasion`` thingy is concernced, who is afraid of your mongerel culture? Veena Malik`s shaking booty is far more corrupting than some Tamil Brahman Malini`s fat arse, thank you.

Here is the real reason: India is an enemy country which is occupying Pakistani territory. Why should Pakistan send money to Indian film industry? Simple isn`t it?

ali_1#60,

Fair enough. Don`t send the money to an enemy country. Why the desire to
watch pirated videos then ? Or is stealing from the enemy acceptable behaviour ?

Ali_1


``Of course it will be a huge hit in Pakistan: most maulanas will miss a prayer to watch a B grade Indian heroine screwing a C grade Kala Khan. ``

LOLOLOL!! Like Maulana Sandwich. Arrey yaar, I would have loved to meet you in San Francisco along with Dulla Bhatti. Chalo, agli baar sahi.

ali_1, stuka:
Am I imagining things or have you guys have kissed and made up? If so, congrats!

re: this article
I have a lot of problems with this article. First of all, Bollywood does not represent Indian culture. Those who think so are probably not aware of what the word ``culture`` really means.

Bollywood as it stands today is a ``third rate`` copy of Hollywood. I see no culture or class in most of the movies coming out of Bollywood. The best movies seem to be made by some select Directors like Mani Ratnam or Ram Gopal Varma. Rest is all trash.

So, if Pakistan is banning these movies, it is doing a good thing. No one should welcome trash. However, Paki mind is not different from Indian mind. Both are attracted to cheap trash, in this case Bollywood movies. That is why these movies are so popular in Pak. Pak tries to outdo Bollywood but has failed because Bollywood has evolved with time and makes technically better movies. But trash nevertheless. I just finished seeing ``Spartacus`` in TMC with my mom who is visiting me in USA. This movie is an all time Hollywood Classic made more than 40 years ago. No indian has ever made anything like this in Bollywood.

What Pak is afraid of is not Indian culture but the fact that it is well aware that its own culture is not much different from the Indian culture (that is to say: there is a lot in common). This has bothered the elite of Pak no end. All attempts to invent a new Paki culture has failed so far. So, anything from India (be it music or movies) is viewed with a sense of unease. Pakis watch Bollywood movies perhaps because there is no better alternative to it.
Sridhar

Here is the real reason: India is an enemy country which is occupying Pakistani territory. Why should Pakistan send money to Indian film industry? Simple isn`t it?

Ditto! I agree with ali!

Ref my post #15 by ballukhan on November 21, 2003 7:09am PT

``Atleast the local mafiiaso and pirates would be then able to p,lough back the a part of the booty into the jehadi mafiaso- who would further provide protection for their piracy, charas, ganja, counterfeiting, tax evasion, boot legging``

stuka, sure dude, let me know when you are here next time

plats5, you have a point. However, respect of intellectual property is not a 3rd world forte, is it?

let me remind the author of the ``american cultural invasion`` that is often bought up by the sangh parivar in india. one might recall the violence against celebration of ``Valentines day`` committed by the shiv sainiks in mumbai. bet if it were up to the BJP they will make every indian woman wear a sari and every man a dhoti.

regarding the Intellectual Rights, majorty of computer software used by indian consumers infringes on copyright laws. guess WTO and WIPO would not be great for india too. imagine paying Rs 12,000 for windows.

``Pakistanis should realise that Islam is not going to be threatened by Indian entertainment.``

honey, islam is a religion and not a film industry that it will be threatened by some B-grade movie industry. india can put together as many bollywood/tollywood as it pleases, it will remain a insignificant industry.

``They feel that the Quran and the Hadith are all it takes to lead a complete life.``

Last thing any muslim needs is a lecture on his/her religion from a cow/monkey/snake worshipping gentleman. so keep your opinions to yourself, nobody gives a rats ass to them.

#56 by jay.

I don`t feel like interacting with you, but what the heck if I throw a bone at you it wont hurt.

I will not say it is good to see your hate filled post on Chowk so I`ll say what I really want to, I am disappointed what are you waiting for to pull that long awaited trigger?

Listen believe what ever the heck you want to believe...Indian Hegemony ? are you saying India bully Pakistan ??

#46 by Radhika
this is scary, Rajni Kanth brings smile to your face......yikes!

#50 by fountainheader
I never said issue here is who pirates....
Movies sold by Indiatimes are legal? are you kidding me ? maybe thats why they did not bother to answer me emails when asked if they were legal copies. Give me a break.

#57 by saminshah
I don`t suggest ban Indian movies, I am merely expressing what I see.....
quoting ``Visit collage of Bombay of ahmedabad you find thousand of salman or amir or ritik and girls with short skirts``
no, thanks. I rather have my own identity
quoting ``man this is not land of pure or Pakistan ````
Pakistan is not a land of pure, it was just a marketing slogan.

---

I will give examples of what little I have seen in the last 15 years from bollywood.
Where in India women live a single life ``successfully``?
Where in India there are bars that look almost like American bars ?
Where in Indian you can hang a stuff monkey in your home ?
Where in India can you wear revealing clothes and get away with not guys looking at you ?
Where in India (this is funny) can you find ``Culturally`` sophisticated people ?
Where in India a women can go on a run down neighborhood store and asks for Condom ? are these kind of things indicates progress ?
Were in India it is ok to have sex without wed lock ?
I can go on and on but REMEMBER ``Kawa Chala Hans Ki Chaal Aur Aapni Chaal Bhi Bhool Gaya`` admit it or not India is destined to get lost CULTURALLY... India`s culture is no longer represented in main stream movies. Indians Generally dont live in slums but go to Switzerland when they feel like singning, do they?
Indians dont go to every landmark in the world and shake booty when they are happy and want to shak up!
Open your eyes and try to understand my point. Indian movies are far from reality.

yagacho #68,

``Last thing any muslim needs is a lecture on his/her religion from a cow/monkey/snake worshipping gentleman. so keep your opinions to yourself, nobody gives a rats ass to
them.``

Clearly, you consider your own opinion to be important enough to share them in this
public space. By the way, I agree with you that Islam (or any religion) is not a B-grade
movie industry - they are all just primitive forms of philosophy.

Pardaisi

naw....r u serious??
u mean to say you don`t put your fingers in ur mouth and whistle really loud when Rajni comes up with awesome dialogue like ``Apun ka naam hai HIRA, Apun ne sabko Chiraa`` or wear his sunglases and lights his cig with ISHTYLE??
I am dissapointed. !!

#72 by Radhika,
U Wrote:

Pardaisi

naw....r u serious??
u mean to say you don`t put your fingers in ur mouth and whistle really loud when Rajni comes up with awesome dialogue like ``Apun ka naam hai HIRA, Apun ne sabko Chiraa`` or wear his sunglases and lights his cig with ISHTYLE??
I am dissapointed. !!

---

Yes, I am serious.
I don`t wet my fingers in my mouth...I use ...if you know what I mean to wet them (thats how ``Apun likes to Chira`` things).

How can ``Rajni`` live with himself, people do not have self respect these days?

What he portrays on the screen is disgusting. It just goes to prove what kind of people watch his movies... like him, like you Rad!.

Now I am begining to understand it is not for me or for most people it is for someone like you....I see.

I have a sense of humor but come on give me break when it comes to Rajni ?

Happy Chowking!

re:#69 by pardaisi
India is not lost culturally, dude. Simply put, Bollywood is not India and does not represent Indian culture. Bollywood is pathetic.
Just finished seeing a good Tamil movie called ``Anbe vaa`` with Kamalahaasan and Madhavan. Some superb acting by former. Got the movie mainly for my mom whose grasp of English is limited and who, like me, thinks Bollywood is trash.
Sridhar

in case u didn`t notice...there was sarcasm pouring from all sides in my comment.

Anyhoo U write
``What he portrays on the screen is disgusting.`` and ``How can ``Rajni`` live with himself, people do not have self respect these days? ``

If u were making the kind of money that he does...I bet u would sound a lil diff.

Rajni does what his directors ask him to..by doing that he makes millions of ppl happy and hence the producer is happy at the end of the day...everybody is kush-kush!!
Itz All About The Money Honey! It is really as simple as that Pardaisi...really. don`t over-complicate things.

The point being...I probably like mindless movies such as Rajni`s or Austin Powers or Jackass on MTV! I don`t quite understand what u meant by ``It just goes to prove what kind of people watch his movies... like him, like you Rad!.`` What kind r u talkin abt? who r u to judge what is good what is not..what is art what is not...what is COOL to watch and what ain`t.

rsridhar #74,

Since there is no monolithic thing as an Indian culture, present-day Bollywood
does indeed reflect some fraction of urban Indian culture. It also does provide
some sort of escapist fantasy to a very very large number of Indians (including
myself), and I wouldn`t be so quick to dismiss it as trash. Some of us may choose
to not watch Bergman on a regular basis for entertainment.

There exist a comparable amount of regional trash in India as well, an odd good
film notwithstanding.

Pardaisi #73,

To each his own. Lest you forget, you have a choice not to watch Rajnikanth.

And by the way, pardaisi, indiatimes has been the media partner for release of a lot of Hollywood blockbusters, like Spiderman. You think Hollywood guys would tie up with pirates?

Please understand, that I am saying movies are simply tools of culture, not culture themselves. At the same time, here are some of your questions that beg answering

Where in India women live a single life ``successfully``?

A lot of cities, especially in the West, East and South where the roads are not unsafe for a woman after dark. There are thousands of single working women in Mumbai, Pune, Bangalore, Hyderabad and even Calcutta.

Where in India there are bars that look almost like American bars ?

All the cities I mentioned above, plus Delhi

Where in Indian you can hang a stuff monkey in your home ?

Ehhhhhh???

Where in India can you wear revealing clothes and get away with not guys looking at you ?

No one can do that anywhere in the world. Guys will always look at you. But yes, in India women can wear revealing clothes in certain cities and in certain social scenarios.

Where in India (this is funny) can you find ``Culturally`` sophisticated people ?

What is your definition of ``culturally sophisticated``? If it means knowledge of art, music, literature, then Calcutta, Mumbai, Pune, Chennai and even Delhi.

Where in India a women can go on a run down neighborhood store and asks for Condom ?

Many cities. And a woman SHOULD be able to do that. If that is lack of culture, then so be it.

are these kind of things indicates progress ?

No, but when did I say it has anything to do with progres?

Were in India it is ok to have sex without wed lock ?

How many Bollywood movies have shown that it is OK to have sex without wedlock? Name five. In Bollywood, most female leads are shown to be virgins and sati savitris, the way they are expected to be in most Indian families. the few movies which may show this are from parallel cinema and represent a proportionately small but numerically significant chunk of the so called ``high class`` society where it is acceptable. There was an issue of India Today some months back which had a survey about the sexuality of Indian women. Very enlightening.

And yes, indiatimes didn`t send you a reply so they sell illegal stuff? I have bought CDs from them and they are all legitimate Sony VCDs. Unless Sony started piracy.....

Tell me if any movies are available on Indiatimes before they are officially released on DVD. If so, i will agree that they indulge in piracy. But once a filmmaker released a movie on VHF and DVD, it means they are releasing movies in forms other than through theatre. They don`t sell VCDs in USA any more, because the American market has moved on to DVDs. The day Indian market matures to DVDs ONLy, people will dtop selling VCDs too.

By the way, indiatimes sells DVDs AND VCDs of every Hollywood movie. Are you telling me they sell legit DVDs but illegit VCDs?

For all who keep saying ``Movies are not culture``, I have included a disclaimer at the beginning of the article

Now when I talk of the Indian ``culture``, I am using the Indian ``entertainment products``, i.e. Indian movies, soap operas and music albums as the tool of culture, even though some may disagree.

This disclaimer conveys the premise on which I am basing my argument. If you disagree with the premise, don`t even bother reading the argument.

# 60 ali

I have already said that I understand that the ban was more of a protectionist move to help the pakistani film industry. However I am not sure whether the point I made is irrelevant either. here on chowk too people have said time and again that ``indian movies and soaps are trashy, they show affairs, skimpily dressed women. good they are banned!!``. Why ban something unless you are afraid that people will like it and start imitating it?

Here is the real reason: India is an enemy country which is occupying Pakistani territory. Why should Pakistan send money to Indian film industry? Simple isn`t it?

Granted. Very simple. I am saying that by doing so, Pakistanis will earn more as well. The way that China and Taiwan do business even when they are enemies. Why does China help Taiwan make money? Simple, because China makes more money too as a result of the trade. Read my article again.

One might be fooled into thinking that because of this ban, the 150 million dollars that would have gone to India stay in Pakistan thanks to Sadaf. However that is not so. By legitimising Indian movies, Pakistan would only make the pie bigger. So the piece of the big pie that Pakistanis get will be much bigger than the tiny pie the pirates currently devour. Imagine how great it would be if Pakistanis could have legitimate access to Indian movies. This would mean that more cinema halls and multiplexes could be opened in Pakistan. This would generate additional employment as well as revenue. There would be legitimate video shops, sans the Sadaf monopoly and the Pakistani government could earn big bucks through taxes.

# 68 yagacho

I agree, we Indians are making the very same mistakes, banning as well as IPR violation. The ban on V-day, the ban on beauty pageants in UP, the ban on satanic Verses. What is your point? I think you are indulging in the fallacy of ``tu coque``.

honey, islam is a religion and not a film industry that it will be threatened by some B-grade movie industry.

Darling, my point exactly!!!!! Why ban basant celebrations then? Why ban satanic Verses, which is, I am sure you feel, a b-grade trashy novel.

Last thing any muslim needs is a lecture on his/her religion from a cow/monkey/snake worshipping gentleman. so keep your opinions to yourself, nobody gives a rats ass to them.

Firstly, I am an atheist, and worshipping a cow, monkey, snake, or some entity whose existence is pure conjecture, are all equally pointless in my view. And if you want people to keep their views to themselves, perhaps a forum like chowk is not the best site for you.

To : #69 by pardaisi on November 24, 2003 9:41am PT

“no, thanks. I rather have my own identity”
I really feel sorry for your sorry stat of your identity which can lost by just seeing girl in short skirts. Thanks to my liberal education I don’t think your way.

“Where in India women live a single life ``successfully``?”
lot of women. Just visit India. This is not land of pure.
Where in India there are bars that look almost like American bars ?
Lot of. visit any metro of India.
“Were in India it is ok to have sex without wed lock”
go to outlookindia.com and search archive. you can find opinion poll on Indian woman and pre marriage sex.
“Where in India (this is funny) can you find ``Culturally`` sophisticated people ? “
lot of man now a days. I again say this is not land of pure.



“Where in Indian you can hang a stuff monkey in your home ?
Where in India can you wear revealing clothes and get away with not guys looking at you ?
Where in India a women can go on a run down neighborhood store and asks for Condom”

I think u should read my post no #57 again before give me reply. I stat that again here.
From post #57
“film industry is represent country’s mirror image not sunglass image. so your right hand you find in mirror is left hand but you believe this your image. now you said abt fighting bhabhis or so on. Man movies maker mad movie for commercial point of view so they have to mix some masala same way terminator or matrix don’t happen in day to day lives in America but after see that we get idea how Americans live or wear or speak or which festivals they enjoy.
”
I think you can’t differentiate between real image and mirror image.

“I can go on and on but REMEMBER ``Kawa Chala Hans Ki Chaal …”
man we can at least try it. one day we will succeed. Better to try and do something then waiting for salladin.


“admit it or not India is destined to get lost CULTURALLY... India`s culture is no longer represented in main stream movies. Indians Generally don’t”

Don’t worry Indian civilization is too big for it. It was swallowed thousand of culture in it.
Same will happen to this culture also.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#80 by saminshah

Sorry to hear you dont want to address reality. By blaming me for not understading or acting like ostrich will not solve your problems.

good luck with your India and its problems and wish me luck for Pakistan.

#82 by pardaisi on November 25, 2003 1:17pm PT
#80 by saminshah

”Sorry to hear you dont want to address reality. By blaming me for not understading or acting like ostrich will not solve your problems.

good luck with your India and its problems and wish me luck for Pakistan.”

No need to be sorry. I told you ground realities. you think like American who don’t know anything abt India and just think that is country of sneck charmer and gurus.
You don’t know ground realities, which I know. There is 180 degree deference in 1990’s India and 2003’s India.
Wish you best luck.

#83 by saminshah

you said ``I think like Americans....`` exactly my point Samin Shah...Indian movies are representing American Culture in the movies, now its just a matter for you to accpting the fact.

Handful of Indians with success is not a respresentation of entire Indian population.


Thanks for the well wishes ;-)