Banning Fashion Shows

Re:rafay

``Lastly, one should not forget that fashion shows have, at least in Pakistan, developed an interesting characteristic of their own: they are also a welcome distraction for a population starved of entertainment. ``

Yeh.that.characteristic.that.they.are.the.entertainment.of.the.elite.and.the.rich.......that.is.0.0001.%.of.the.population......wow....!!!...mr.rafay.you.would.definitely.defend.the.rights.of.the.common.and.poor.in.the.future......ridicolous.issue....as.always.....!!!!

cheers
raza

Well done Rafay, you`ll make a decent lawyer. You missed one key point however. Its an indication of our skewed moral, social and political values, as Pakistanis, that we leap at the chance to condem the limitation of our hedonism, whilst we turn a blind eye to the excesses of our elite...us. For Pakistan as a nation, Fashion shows should be very low priority, right down there with tai chi classes and media law. Its sowing the seeds of a revolution when you have an elite strutting around at balls and fashion shows, whilst the poor scrounge for bread. Priorities were never a strong point in Pakistan.

re: Fashion industry in South Asia
Comparisons are not necessarily bad. In the following article, author seems to say that Indian fashion industry is being highly westernised while Paki industry still retains its unique cultural flavor. I would say Pak industry is slowly evolving its own unique character. Catapulting to western glitter and being a copycat is easy. I leave it to the readers to decide which is preferable.
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/

``No vamps please, we`re Pakistani

The Lux Carnival de Couture showcased high fashion from India and Pakistan and introduced Dior products to the local market. It was a night when the Indian village belle went to Bollywood and worshipped Helen while the Pakistani socialite went to the ball looking elegant and refined


By Muniba Kamal

The cream of society and MNCs turned up to attend the Lux Carnival de Couture in droves. There was so much to look forward to. Sana Safinaz showed for the first time in three years. There was Faiza Samee who presented a collection and most important of all, the Indians were in town - Suneet Verma and Rina Dhaka on a Pakistani ramp. And the icing on the cake for Vogue reading fashionistas, were the six dresses and a variety of handbags from Christian Dior. Brought to Pakistan by Zeba Husain in order to raise funds for the Teacher`s Resource Center, the carnival was definitely a cut above corporate sponsored variety shows where fashion is used just to give that necessary sizzle to yet another dreary show.

The Carnival de Couture was done right, with a labyrinth created of white marquee that led into an all white auditorium fashioned out of cloth, a white ramp with the sponsor`s logo done subtly on the side. A frosted glass display with the logos of the designers occupied centre stage. One got a feeling that one was about to witness high fashion for a change. With Frieha Altaf in charge of choreography you expected nothing less. And speaking of high fashion let`s talk about Christian Dior first.

The House of Dior had sent in a couple of t-shirts, six dresses and handbags. The handbags, sling on and clutch variety, small and large were gorgeous. Funky but sophisticated, making a statement yet understated, it was vintage Dior with a new age twist. Bags that any woman would want to own, but reserved for those who can shell out 50,000 rupees for a piece of world class design. The dresses on the other hand disappointed. Made of beautiful material that clung to the body, some were slashed through and most featured rosettes; the dresses that were the finale of the carnival did not have the desired impact. The only model that looked good wearing them was Iraj. She has that bohemian attitude in oodles and the height to carry it all off. Plus her looks are not typically Pakistani at all. She is the closest we can get to Naomi Campbell. And none of our models have that painfully thin anorexic frame that was required to carry off the Dior dresses. But that is a cultural difference. Goldie Hawn didn`t look all that good when she wore a sari to the Oscars. And, let`s agree that Vinny looks far better in Rizwan Beyg than Princess Di, for all her golden beauty, ever did.

If anything, the finale served to accentuate the theme of the show. The show that was touted as a message of peace was a riotous celebration of difference - the difference between East and West as highlighted by the Dior segment and most of all, the difference between Pakistan and India. There was a marked difference between all the collections presented. One was subtle, the other gauche. One incorporated tradition while one subverted it. One was about vamps and vixens, the other about grace and dignity.

True fashion watchers looked forward to the show, to the fact that two of our best would be sharing the catwalk with two internationally acclaimed Indian designers. Yes, this show was as anticipated by the glitterati of Pakistan as anything from across the border always is. Pakistan`s liberal lobby has a visceral fascination with India that is matched by the longing of most secular Indians to be one with Pakistan. Expectations were running high. Curiosity was at its peak and (perhaps, not so unexpectedly) the cat got killed as soon as the Suneet Verma creations strode onto the catwalk.

It took sometime for the eye to adjust to the myriad colors of these Bollywood style concoctions. East met West and went to a disco with crystals and sequins and feathers all jumbling together to create outfits that were on a positively different plain but stuff that most Pakistanis wouldn`t be caught dead in. Aaminah Haq had to carry off a black sari heavily embroidered with glitzy orange that might have worked if the blouse had been plainer. But no, it was more heavily worked than the sari itself. Nadia Hussain strode out a black sari set ablaze with silver psychedelia with the green of green sari and a blouse that was black but clashed with it. Tariq Amin gave hair and make up that complimented the look. Some models had hair slicked back while feathers stole upwards. Others had straight blow dries. All looked beautiful.

Then followed a yellow sari with blue, green and pink toned gota. ZQ looked thoroughly uncomfortable in a blue, feathery bodice with a feathered skirt swishing around her. The blouses were tube tops and saris met dresses, it was the veritable Verma mix of East and West, done in while speeding over the highway of his imagination that stretches from YSL (his first training ground) through Nicole Farhi and ultimately leads to Bollywood. Someone said his clothes were theatrical. I thought they were filmi, more Isha Koppikar than Sushmita Sen at that. The Bollywood influence was clear. The show began with `Marhaba Marhaba` from Jaanasheen the new Feroz Khan film. The only wearable outfit was patchwork pants with strips of mirrorwork, yellow, red, black and white that were paired with a smart black top. The pants fit right and fell right, which is a rarity for most Pakistani designers. The embellishments were the monstrosities that did them in.

Speaking at a press conference the next day, Verma said that his collection was called `vamp` and catered to women who were confident enough to be sexy. It seems that the cutting edge of Indian fashion is cutting the Indianness out of India in a bid to change the culture of India to cater to the largely Westernised world market.

Different strokes for different folks.

The Pakistani fashion industry may not be as well developed as India`s but that night it more than held its own. Ultimately, the night belonged to Sana and Safinaz. The Sana Safinaz woman has always been a girl`s girl managing to turn heads with ease. She revels in her femininity and is sexy without being in your face. She is thin, and wears their fitted spaghetti strapped outfits with decorum. She is rather like Sana and Safinaz themselves who shy away from hype, go into hiding for three years and come out with a collection that swept this couture carnival despite the Suneet Verma, Rina Dhaka, Faiza Samee`s of the couture world. As for the House of Dior: it will take a long time for them to find any kind of market here.

Sana Safinaz showed exactly how tradition can be fused with chic to create a sensation. They started off on a restrained but funky note. Beginning unexpectedly with a nod to Chinese culture they made use of toned-down Chinese influence to blend with the style of Sana Safinaz, presenting truly tasteful pieces inspired by the orient in black with a hint of red and red with a hint of black, the straight pants and thigh length kameezes that became more ostentatious. The first few outfits were Sana Safinaz with a twist. Using shimmering silks that made the dabka less flashy than it would look on bright colours they created luminous clothes straight pants and knee length shirts. Kameezes that skimmed the knee made of material that floated, in the earthy tones Sana and Safinaz have long favoured. Amin had spruced the models up for a no-fuss look that accentuated their inherent beauty that left it up to the classy clothes to amplify it; which they did, and how. The girls glided out looking like queens. And as they walked past and one got a glimpse of the back, and that was what made these outfits. Mostly dupatta less, the backs were cut low, and were innovative. No two looked the same. This was eastern sexiness at its contemporary best.

Sana and Safinaz`s collection elicited claps and hoots galore from the crowd. Then there was silence as Rina Dhaka`s clothes made an appearance. Consisting entirely of short kameezes with see-through churidaars, it was a collection where tradition screamed with rage with the torture imposed on it by experimentation. All the colours of Holi mixed up in every lurid outfit and some with motifs running straight down the middle of the kameez in a disjointed fashion. Amin`s make up turned from natural to dramatic with a distinct touch of native Americana. It complimented the outfits perfectly with a strip of brilliant colour dashed strategically on the models` faces. If Red Indians ever play Holi, this is what it would look like.

I didn`t think much of those see-through churidaars. For a start there were a lot of them. Hot pink, turquoise, bright orange and yellow clones of one single brain wave. What was the idea? Perhaps they were meant to be socially acceptable mini dresses. One might have been seen as innovation, but the sameness of Dhaka`s entire collection was one long flogging of a very dead horse. It is essential to maintain tradition in some form or the other, while experimentation should be fluid.

Faiza Samee, one of the great traditionalists that one has seen, also decided to experiment. And it just did not work. She opened with two velvet outfits, one camel coloured and one bright blue big on large motifs in dull gold. It did not work. Then came some new ghararas that were beautiful, coupled with ill-fitting tops that did not go with them. Samee is trying new cuts and not doing it well. She is somewhat of a guardian at the gates of dawn. Samee has been so heavily into tradition. She was responsible for injecting the puritanism of the Mughal era back into Pakistan`s fashion scene. This is one hell of an achievement and one that needs to be maintained. Maintaining it would be a far greater service to Pakistani fashion than her unfortunate foray into western wear. Bronze silk pedal pushers with a layer of pink sticking out worn with short tops, bolero jackets (remember them?) with bright scarves flying off the neck are definitely not looks for the new millennium. Classic Faiza Samee, came in at the end and one sat back with a sigh of relief at the beauty of what she has been doing successfully for years. Amin had given the girls an uncluttered but more dramatic look for Samee`s collection that goes with the richness of her clothes. During the latter part of the collection it was the old Faiza Samee that ruled. Those beautiful vibrant, blended colours. The same cut. The same beautiful embroidery. The same timelessness that is the hallmark of our heritage. It is heartening that younger, more with it designers realize the treasure trove that is our tradition and are not willing to let it go.

The next day Sana Hashwani standing in for the designer duo Sana Safinaz spoke about the dabka revival they aimed for with this collection. She said it was important to them, just because dabka was becoming extinct. So far, their hallmark had been threadwork and crystals. The work has always been beautiful and intricate, but it has been the same. This year they went for dabka in a big way and what they did with it was the cutting edge of tradition. Suneet Verma was all praises for Sana Safinaz and said that years ago, Indian fashion also had the sameness to it that Pakistani fashion has today. Sana agreed with him and we do too. However, that is not the end of the story. Since our respective independence from the colonial masters, the Indian cookie has crumbled in a way completely different to Pakistan`s.

Despite the fact that both are third world countries, India has embraced Westernisation unabashedly as far as the media is concerned. The penetration of channels like Star, MTV and V into India has given them a lot of experience technologically, but imposed on them a Western format. They have opened themselves up to the world and are welcoming it into Indian exotica with open arms. Pakistan on the other hand is taking its first tentative steps towards liberalism, as it contends with the MMA, issues like the LFO and fights the war on terror both externally and internally. Pakistan has an essentially conservative society as indeed does India. What India has and which helps its fashion industry evolve is a massive population with a burgeoning middle class. To be fashionable requires money and Indian society has more of that. But it also has designers willing to cater to the middle class, whereas few Pakistani designers deign to do so.

There are thousands of designers in India. Suneet Verma is one of the more exclusive ones, but there, all designers are not clamouring to cater to high society as ours by and large are. In India, even designers like Verma have come out with a pret collection to cater to expand their market base. Most of our designers are very fond of cribbing about their limited access to the Indian market. None of them have managed to successfully break into the international market either. A fashion week in Delhi and a stray exhibition in Paris later, they come back home while their mind wanders to the international circuit.

The Pakistan market lies forgotten under the debris of bad publicity that so many buy into even within its borders. In dreams of penetrating the Indian market, it is forgotten that at the moment Pakistan is the seventh most populous country in the world. Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad combined have a population of over 15 million people. Pakistani designers can create a local market, but they have not taken on that challenge. The fact that there are at least four designers with shops in Zamzama and Park Towers simultaneously speaks volumes for the closed mind set of our fashion industry. Unless the local market grows, the world, or even India will not take them seriously. Apart from the mullah brigade and the Pakistan government`s perennially changing stance on fashion, what the Pakistani fashion industry is most in danger of, is being suffocated by its own exclusivity. ``
Sridhar

#91 to 93: I will request everybody to be little polite. No point is served by calling names,symbols. This place people write and neither Sridhar or YLH need each others certificate. No purpose is served by acrimony.
Romair is right 1600 Rs. is not trivial sum for most poor people. At same time 10 to 20 million people have absolutely no problem in spending 1600 Rs. Deepak Parwani`s designed clothes are designed for poor people. There is nothing wrong in spending money, that is best way to help poor in practical terms. It pains me to see the unofficial ``prohibition`` lavish marriages as our industry had great profitable business and poor people suffer by not having work in Hospitality Industry. It appears my idea of bringing well to do Sindhi hindus from India for tour of their ancestral lands may have chance. It is beneficial to Sindhi Hindus to see their long gone lands from where their ancestors came and see by eyes. Even today Jews go to visit Eastern Europe and including Germany where (just like Sindh practically no Sindhi Hindus left)no jews are left. Same way Sindhi Hindus will likw to visit. Let us see if it has any merit. Only time will decide if we can get steady flow of Hindu Sindhi visitors as access and travel improves.

Rsidhar,

How dishonest of you to answer in the way you did.

The question is not of the criticism of Pakistan`s fashion industry... I am not a part of the fashion industry and I am Pakistan`s biggest critic where it needs to be criticized and I believe I have proved that much on chowk...

The issue is your constant comparison of Pakistan with India... and your recurring ultimate conclusion (India is so much better than Pakistan.. Pakistan sucks) ... this attitude is indicative of your diseased mentality... I asked you why everything to you is an India vs Pakistan comparison... and you had no answer.

As for maturity.... I am sure others will agree that I don`t need a certificate of maturity from anyone who is insecure about his phallic size, or their country`s for that matter.

-YLH

re: Mantolives various posts
Looks like you have some more growing up to do. I used to think you are mature but apparently not.
You can`t take a criticism! I posted those websites written by Pakis. One is from Dawn and the other was also a Paki website. Have problems? Get in touch with the writers of those articles.
Did i say that Pak does not have a good fashion industry? You need to chill a bit and go back go studying whatever it is in history that you were studying.
Gosh! What a bum?
Sridhar

Romair,

Indeed... waisay you should check out the Lahore outlet next time you are in Pakistan.

As for jhuggi wallahs... I just said that even my new maid who is from a jhuggi is well versed in the whos who of the fashion industry...

Rs 1600 is an affordable price for the middle class. Price ranges are pretty good and unlike what rsidhar would have us believe the fashion culture is taking root.

Mantolives: The comments about the fashion industry are interesting. I went to Pakistan and bought some clothes from Deepak Parwani. They were excellent. Now I get all my shirts sent here from his Islamabad outlet (I think they are stitched in Karachi). For US $30, (1600 rupees) you can get a specially stitched and styled shirt, suited to your specific size (not to the generic medium, small, large sizes), in exactly the color and material you want. That kind of personalized stitching in North America would be around US $150 -250/per shirt. And it would be hard to find such good stitching to begin with.

They need to market their stuff a lot more. They have tiny little outlets with an odd salesperson, who takes your order on a piece of paper, sends it to Karachi and gets your shirt. Most of the shirts aren`t even displayed correctly. And they have a huge shortage of material. It took me three incorrect tries to finally get everything the way I wanted. They kept making the shirt in the wrong material. After that, it has been perfect.

They have a website, but I think it they opened up sales outlets here, and somehow figured out the logistics of it all, they could outsell any of the local speciality tailors, who would charge five times their price.

But, for anyone interested, in North America and earning in dollars, if you can get your material, size, cloth etc. figured out, I would highly recommend Deepak Parwani. Though I am not quite sure, how someone living in jhuggi could afford a Rs. 1600 shirt in Pakistan.

``While i hate this kind of comparisons, i have to put things in perspective, for the sake of verity. ``

On the contrary I think you thrive on such comparisons. Did I even mention your precious `Indian fashion industry` ?

This is a sign of a deep seated insecurity and bigotry of another kind. Or otherwise how pathetic one`s life has to be, to feel good by making such random comparisons... It seems like you are obsessed with proving how much better your precious India is...

Why must everything end up in a desire by Indians to prove that they are all so better than us? Last I checked you fellas were 10 times bigger than us in population... why such phallic insecurity then?

Rsidhar you have no clue about the Pakistan`s fashion industry... and I am sorry a few random searches on the internet is not going to cut it.

Your arrogance and ignorance is appalling...

HSY a famous Pakistani designer from Lahore had a few fashion shows in Europe .... notable amongst those attending were leading names of the fashion world and the political world, including Madelline albright.

Similarly Deepak Perwani, a Pakistani (Hindu) fashion designer from Karachi, is widely acclaimed as one of the leading designers in Asia. Among his clients ... some of the famous names in Hollywood ...

Karma.... by Maheen and Kami also from Karachi is also an acclaimed label with outlet soon in New York city ...

Maria B , a grad of the famed Pakistan school of fashion design, has recently opened an outlet in New York... and none of it is desi clothes for a desi market.

Bhatti is the leading fashion designer in Paris... his clients include Jacques Chirac and the leading names of the french movie industry... Ghani Chaudhry is a leading name in Saville Row.

.... Pakistan`s fashion industry has come a long way, especially with the famous Pakistan school of fashion which due to its affiliations with the best parisian designers, is considered one of the leading schools in the world. Now with the new Pakistani fashion channels coming up ... the entire Pakistani population has become susceptible to fashion.


Ofcourse Pakistan`s industry will be smaller than India... because of the simple demographic reasons but to claim that Pakistan`s fashion indsutry will die out and to base such a stupid assertion on article which doesn`t even say what rsidhar seems to be saying is a sign of a complexed and diseased mentality....


Grow up and give up these stupid Pakistan vs India matches. Leave us Pakistanis the f-ck alone.

-YLH

re: fashion industry: Pak versus India
While i hate this kind of comparisons, i have to put things in perspective, for the sake of verity.
I think Pak`s fashion industry is small compared to India`s. It also has a long way to go before it is accepted by public in general. It is not enough if some upper middle class ``elite`` fashion designers showcase their products for selected audience. Are these designers making an impact? Are there products creating a demand in public and being lapped up by garment industry. Models, fashion shows are all ultimately designed to create awareness of latest trends and thereby, create a demand. Is that happening in Pak?
I am sure Pak`s fashion scene is well and kicking but, as i said, it is small and not making any impact on the garment industry or creating any ripples among the consumers.
And, its global impact is minsicule.

http://www.dawn.com/2003/07/26/ed.htm#3

``A Pakistan fashion week


The week-long India Fashion Week 2003 in Mumbai attracted close to 50,000 visitors. Fifty-eight designers showcased their ready-to-wear collections in the `by invitation only` event, which also hosted interactive talks with leading business people from the industry. Unlike individual couture showings, which showcase one designer`s new collection, this fashion week was meant to be more trade-oriented as the clothes shown represented samples which could then be produced in larger quantities for sale at wider outlets, locally and globally.

Pakistan has much to learn from events like these. It needs to realize that fashion cannot be limited to a minuscule clientele who can afford five-digit prices. The alienation of the common consumer only restricts the market and hampers the development of fashion as an industry. Pakistan`s fashion designers need to work collectively and move towards getting recognition as an industry under the government`s new trade policy whose aim is to promote `industry clusters`. In 1996, the Export Promotion Bureau did well by setting up a fashion school in Lahore as it recognized that fashion had a substantial role to play in generating revenue. Pakistani fashion has a headstart, as it has some of the most talented designers creating innovative couture. The textile industry produces some of the finest cotton in the world, and the local apparel industry would benefit tremendously if designers lent their creativity to it. Apart from creating job opportunities and generating foreign exchange, Pakistani fashion will boost the country`s image in the global community. Fashion designers need to rise above personal differences and work together in setting up a fashion council whose objective should be to organize a Pakistan fashion week. By roping in textile industry heavyweights, corporations and government support, Pakistani fashion can find a niche on the global ramps. ``

A pakistani website compares the Pak fashion scene with India`s and comes to some interesting conclusions:

http://www.megaeast.com/default.asp?section=fashion&page=indo-pak.con
Excerpts:

``A Pakistan School of Fashion Design graduate, designer Nomi Ansari sees things differently, believing that the trademark of good fashion is commercial viability. “What’s the point of coming up with revolutionary designs that no one is going to wear?” he asks, as he emphasizes that his collections are almost always customer-friendly as well as design-friendly. In Nomi’s opinion, the reason Pakistani fashion does not even come close to competing with Indian fashion is that the former industry enjoys almost no support from the government. “True, the Export Promotion Bureau does help in arranging trade exhibitions and delegations abroad but a lot more needs to be done,” explains Nomi, as he points out that the Indian government has helped enormously in building overseas contacts for their fashion designers.``

``Venezza Ahmed is currently the biggest name in Pakistan’s modelling industry. When asked why our industry has continually remained many places behind their Indian counterparts, she draws attention to the fact that India is four times the size of Pakistan. “India has a huge population, and their fashion industry is 54 years old, while ours is a 10-year-old stripling. If you compare models from the two countries, one realises the difference in stature of the two industries – for instance an average model working in India does about 70 shows a year. I don’t think I’ve done 70 shows in my entire modelling career!”

And in conclusion, the website has this to say:

``It seems that in the minds of the maestros themselves, the Pakistan fashion industry needs some radical changes before it can come anywhere near standing shoulder-to-shoulder with its bigger brother over the border. Whether easing its exclusivity, garnering government help, deflecting social criticism, or regulating the industry the message is clear: Pakistan’s trendy threads business is full of talent but suffers from a lack of regulation and stifling social mores. The potential is there, and we know that the industry is still young, but without institutional change it just won’t grow into the giant of international fashion that India has become. ``

While Pak fashion fashion scene has suffered a major setback after the ban on fashion shows, Indian fashion industry is slowly being noticed internationally. It is a long way off before this gets translated into something concrete but it has started to happen.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3075419.stm

With increasing trade and people to people interactions between India and Pak, one hopes the 2 industries will benefit from each other. Pak fashion scene has much to learn and benefit from India`s.
Sridhar

Pakistanis talk about their fashion industry like Indians do their IT industry. Why do I get the felling that Indians have the better thing to brag about? If Pakistanis had any sense, they would envy Indians at least on this one difference....

rsidhar,


Your point about Pakistani fashion industry is however completely invalid. Fashion Industry is very popular in Pakistan, and middle class has taken to it.

Pakistan for example has its own fashion channel dedicated to fashion called style duniya which has a universal viewership.... in the lower middle class to middle class shops of anarkali you find pictures and designs of popular Pakistani designers and models like vinnie aaminah, and Iraj. Why even our new maid, the daughter of the erstwhile garbageman Mr. Kala Mian, knows the names of top supermodels. So if we have to go by `evidence` ... then I would say that even the jhuggiwallahs have taken to following the events of the fashion world.

I suggest you read up on the Pakistani fashion industry before making generalizations about it.

-YLH

re:#83 by Mantolives
I am afraid my point is still valid. Indian middle class (upper, lower all) have taken to fashion as was never done before.
http://newstodaynet.com/19nov/ss1.htm

Excerpts:
``An unprecedented frenzy over the Indians winning the Miss Universe and Miss World titles in quick succession was whipped by the beaming of the glittering events through satellite television. The euphoria made every Indian feel beautiful, to forget the squalour, privation and daily drudgery as the nation gave a standing ovation to the beautiful girls, who were seen as pride of the country.

India, many suggested, had arrived on the international arena and had carved a niche for itself on the beauty scene, at least. The country never looked back since then and did not realise that it was accelerating itself towards a total cultural degradation, worshipping beauty exemplified in the form of female bodies, fair skin and male muscles.

Perhaps the dynamics of the pageants and the commerce behind them could not be comprehended by the average Indian that winning a crown at a beauty pageant became the dream of every little girl about town and was shared by her parents, relatives and friends. To cash in on the emerging trend, pageant organisers mushroomed to give flesh and blood to the collective dream just about everywhere, including slums, putting the nation on a beauty rush.

The contests provided a hunting ground for film makers looking for fresh faces and also for fashion show organisers - another breed that was proliferating then - to spot leggy potential models. Prior to that, ramps, too, were meant for the eyes of an affluent class of cognoscenti and it was haute coutre that was showcased with highly paid models from an exclusive club alone adorning them.

It was then a class thing, an elitist activity with everyone in it - designers, choreographers, agents and event managers - coming from the upper crust of society that which had its own morals and lifestyle, which was a far cry from that of traditional India. The average Indian had nothing to do with the ramp. He could not even have a peek into it.

F-TV came and changed everything upside down. Even the riff raff managed to have an eyeful of ramp shows, that too close up shots, and everyone knew what catwalking is all about, which led to the common man developing a taste for it and some among them aspiring to be part of that alien culture.

So the fashion show organiser found his feet, besides finding the legs to strut on the ramp, and many a local beauty contest offered a bridge to the local ramp. And another trend was born. Fashion pageants that saw beautiful things prancing with an artificial gait, a plastic smile and very little to cover them became a regular feature with even small time businessmen wishing to display their wares in the fashion of the elite.

Fashion shows thus became not just a national passtime but also a sort of socio-economic leveller - bridging the gaps between the upper and upper middle classes and the elite and those with elitist aspirations. Drawing its sustenance from globalisation and blatant commerciali sation, the trend drew more people from the middle classes with varied aspirations and less inhibitions, marking the breaking of middle-class value system. ``

I am not sure if every small or big city in Pakistan has a fashion show going on, in which girls of middle class are vying with one another to become beauty queens but, if i were to believe what i have read and heard, that is how it is in today`s India.
I am not saying this is good or bad. Personally, i think it is bad as it erodes into the value system of middle class. Only time will tell what its long term implications are.
Sridhar

rsdihar,

I am afraid you have misunderstood Ali Lapointe`s article. No where is he arguing what you think he is arguing.

He is upset that the fashion gurus didn`t protest the ban... the ban has since then been lifted. The character of the Pakistani fashion industry is similar to the Indian fashion industry... it is a world of glamor and has the patronization of westernized upper middle class. Mind you.. this is middle class, and not the upper class as some would have us believe.

In 1980s the oppression of Zia regime led to creativity ... and fashion became an expression of protest ... which suddenly launched the Pakistani fashion industry... sadly the same intellectual basis is no longer there.


I suggest you read the article again.


:)

-YLH

mohar11:
You do not have to convince me regarding the problems created in India by those who show different attitude towards hindu and muslim sensitivities. BJP would still be stuck with single digits in the parliament if it were not able to exploit the hypociricy of Angana Chatterjees, Praful Badwais and Arundati Roys and their ilk.
...but to be fair, none of the muslim leaders in India supported Hussain during his trouble with the Shiv Sena; as far as I remember many of them were openly critical of him.

re: fashion scene in Pakistan
No Art or culture can survive for long if it does not have the popular backing of the middle class. A case in point would be the classical dance Bharatanatyam in South India. At one time considered distasteful, this dance was revived and made popular by the likes of Rukmini Arundale.
Fashion scene in India today is similarly popular among the middle class and there is no stigma attached to it. In the following article, the author argues that Fashion scene in Pakistan does not have a popular support if its masses and it is unlikely to survive for long with continued onslaught by mullahs and ban imposed by the govt:
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/
Sridhar

#78 by dost-mittar
//Hussain has great reverence for hindu gods, goddesses and traditions even though this is not permitted by his religion... The ransacking of his house was nothing more than a symbol of the hindu me-too-fundamentalism//

I am on Hussain`s side on this one. He can paint whatever he wants - NO shiv sena jacka!!** has NO rights to any violence against him or anybody supporting him.

But question that many others asked at that time, is still valid: Would Mr Hussain ever paint a naked(or clothed) Prophet Muhammad - or say, a caricature of the mecca mosque? He must be having great reverence for Muhammad and Mecca, too. If he did - what would be the muslims reaction?

Or alternately - let`s say a famous Hindu/Christian painter, who has great reverence for islam, paints a naked Muhammad. What would happen to him? Who would defend him and who would brand him as anti-muslim ?

#77 by mumbaikar

Well let us assume the worst case. That Hussain wanted to depict the Goddess naked because he wanted to make a revered icon a sex object. Just for one moment.

Now ask yourself that if someone had done something identical in the US on Christ. Its been done - Corpus Christi is a play by Terrence McNally that depicts Christ as a homo-sexual. His house wasnt ransacked, he wasnt roughed up and nor were his actors stoned. TRue, some catholic leaders took umbrage and denounced him.

But the lesson here is that both sides had a right to do what they wanted and the law of the land helped protect that right. Unfortunately I can`t say the same for mumbai today - not after what the Sena perpetrated.

And its not like the Sena are high connoiseurs of art and understand everything MFH paints. Also I pity those Hindus who are so insecure in their belief that some paint on a paper should offend deeply enough to justify goodagiri.

mumbaikar:
``Painting Goddess Saraswati naked was really in bad taste by Maqbool Fida Hussain Pandharpurkar.``
I do not know whether or not it was in bad taste, but I do know that it had existed for 20 years without anyone raising an eyebrow over it and also that Hussain has great reverence for hindu gods, goddesses and traditions even though this is not permitted by his religion. The ransacking of his house was nothing more than a symbol of the hindu me-too-fundamentalism and the growing intolerance in that most tolerant of religions.

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Foundations of honour killing,

For the first time on chowk, there is some truth coming out, there is now an acceptance that honour killing is not a tribal custom, it has nothing to do with corruption, it is all and simply about the pak legal system.

One can use all kinds of archich arabic words of diyat and what not, the fact that it is flourishing in pakistan and is on the increase is simply because of the wider acceptance of the idea of jihad. The most educated and the sofisticated pakistanis one sees on the chowk are unanimous in the idea that non-innocents are to be killed, the central premise of jihad. Samia sarwar is the most visible case where her mother a gyneacologist, and father a wealthy business man from lahore subscribed and executed the jihadic act.

It is time that the pakistanis, at least make a move, to declare and say that let us leave this all to the state, let the state go through a process and then kill the non-innocent, let the individuals refrain from this. That will be too hard, that will be accepting that jihad is not killing of kafirs, who are by definition non-innocent.

Take it from me, the homoeectus pakistanicus, the foundation of honou killing is jihad. Pakistans problem is not jihadists, it is jihad itself.

Re Manto 61

Absolutely correct. Lest Harimau compare the GGs of Pakistan and India, the Quaid-e-Azam chose to exercise the powers temporarily conferred on a GG in the 8th Schedule of the Indian Independence Act, something Lord Mountbatten chose not to do.

#70 by PM
//...try to deal with the disobedient wife with patience and reasonableness, and (in 4:34) only beat her `lightly` and only as a last resort... //

``Last resort`` - who decides this? the man himself - isn`t it? very nice. And who defines ``lightly``? Who is going enforce these rules - what happens if the husband oversteps?

But never mind. This is exactly what I was trying to point out - you are the typical of apologists - you are defending the book yet again, instead of condemning the totally unacceptable things it prescribes.

//..Still enough to offend twentyfirst-century sensibilites...//
ANother favourite excuse. Such prescriptions in Koran were evil then and they are evil now. No two ways about it.

mumbaikar #63

Before we jeer at the Pakistanis, let us not forget what happened in Mumbai to MF Hussain`s exhibits. Again it was the mighty Shiv Sena.

Atleast the Pakistanis can say that they dont have a choice. We can only plead laziness and inaction.

I wonder if Asif Naqshbandi would care to comment on the article posted in #63. after all, it`s all very well to hold controversial philosophical positions but not carry out their practical imperatives. When the latter is done, it sometimes lends a whole new dimension, or meaning even, to that position.

dost-mittarji:
My knowledge of the the Qisas and Diyat laws is sketchy, so I will not claim cartainty by any means... When first introduced back in the 80`s, the compensation for a death was fixed at about Rs. 2.5 lakh (or was that a minumum?). I do recall being informed that it was half for member of a religious minoirty, though, once again, I would caution against taking this as gospel truth.

Will try and google it out later...

re. mohar11 #69:
While I think that strict adherenec to the book does raise problems, you should bear in mind that in the particular case (re 4:34 and wife-beating), the precdeding verses exhort the husband to try to deal with the disobedient wife with patience and reasonableness, and (in 4:34) only beat her `lightly` and only as a last resort. Still enough to offend twentyfirst-century sensibilites, i admit, but hardly the wife-battering blind prescription that many beleive it to be.

#65 by dost-mittar
excerpts :
//..Nevertheless, the Koran itself permits men to beat their wives (Chapter 4, Verse 34), and the sharia-inspired penal codes of most Muslim countries give the benefit of the doubt to a man who kills his wife, ......... This barbaric practice, which has not been seen in European countries in well over a century, is making an unsavory return within the Old Continent`s Muslim communities. ........ Muslims in Europe account for the vast majority of those living under the poverty line, and Muslim neighborhoods are the poorest areas in nearly every European city.
//

The ``educated`` and living-in-west muslims who keep defending koran ad nauseam, should take note : recognize the source of all that is wrong with muslims these days. Backwardness of muslim communities is mainly because they have not been able to break the shackle of the ``holy`` book.

re. article Shariah in the Old Continent #65
The incidents reported are saddening, but would not be cause for alarm without some sort of figures. Crimes of passion are committed all the time; these ones of misplaced `honor` could be overlooked if they are mumerically equivalent-- that is, some amount of madness is going to take palce in any society-- that`s almsot a given.

What prompted me to ask for figures, and notice that none were provided in the article itself, was the stated credentials of the author.

Perhaps I should take back my last comment, having read this passage:

``In Germany, Milli Gorus, a militant Turkish Islamic organization with more than 200,000 members, is accused by German intelligence of promoting Islamic law among Turkish immigrants in Europe. The August 2001 issue of Milli Gorus`s official publication, Milli Gazete, featured an article stating that ``A religious Muslim is also at the same time an advocate for sharia. The state, the media, and the courts have no rights to interfere. The allegiance of a Muslim to sharia cannot be condemned or questioned.``

!!!

## kaurasach #64
How do you call the brain washing by businesses and psychological manipulation of undeveloped minds individuality.
##

First of all, I don`t see how Valentine`s Day is compromising individuality. As far as undeveloped minds are concerned, who asked these people to be dumb in the first place. If you think big corporations are exploiting people, perhaps it is time to question everything. Not just valentine`s Day. Maybe even Holi or Diwali. Every major company is selling stuff we don`t need. Why is that ok ? You can`t protect anything or anyone forever. If its dying, its probably because it outran its utility. Just as well.

And if V Day is such a passing fad, why worry about it. It will die a natural death if people choose to. If it is an adoption from a foreign culture, then it is individual choice. I cant imagine being in college and not having rose day to look forward to. We like what we like. If companies are benefitting from this, wheres the problem?

Sheep mentality will persist in sheep. My point is that what the Sena is trying to do is treat the symptom and not the problem. Maybe if youngsters thought it cooler to celebrate Gandhi Jayanti instead of V Day, they would. But thats not for the Sena or any of the ``save our culture`` types to decide for the rest though. So let me go to my nightclub, smooch my girlfriend in public and watch my FTV. I am comfortable in my Indianness and I dont need a Sena certification for that.

...and you thought Pakistan had problems:


December 03, 2003, 8:40 a.m.
European Dishonor
Sharia on the Old Continent.

By Lorenzo Vidino & Erick Stakelbeck

Young women killed for dating. Limbs amputated for petty theft. Makeshift courts deciding the fates of members of local Muslim communities. The Western world has grown accustomed to hearing about the brutalities of Islamic law. However, these primitive practices are no longer limited to the remote tribal areas of Pakistan, the backward kingdom of Saudi Arabia, or oppressive, mullah-dominated Iran. Today, thanks in large part to a massive flow of immigration from Muslim countries, sharia law and medieval customs are becoming increasingly common in the heart of Christian Europe.








One of the most shocking examples of this new reality occurred in Sweden last year, when a Kurdish woman was killed by her father for having a romantic relationship with a Swedish man. Fadime Sahindal, 26, had taken her father and brother to sharia court in 1998, alleging that they had threatened to kill her for refusing to marry a Kurdish man the family had chosen for her. The two received only light sentences, however, and continued to abuse Fadime until, in 2002, her father shot and killed her. Disturbingly, the young woman was well aware of the fate that awaited her, as she said during the 1998 trial: ``The only way for the family to regain its honor now that I have spread dishonor over it is to kill me.``

Cases similar to Fadime`s have been reported in France and Denmark. In England last September, a Kurdish father slit his daughter`s throat because he disapproved of her Christian boyfriend and Westernized way of life. And, recently, in the port town of Taranto in southern Italy, a Muslim man who suspected that his wife had committed adultery decided — after consulting with members of his local Muslim community — that she should be stoned to death. The tragedy was only averted thanks to the intervention of local police.

Honor killings are not limited to Muslim countries and are, in fact, a common practice in several third-world cultures. Not all Muslims approve of them, and, according to some Muslim scholars, they do not reflect ``real Islam.`` Nevertheless, the Koran itself permits men to beat their wives (Chapter 4, Verse 34), and the sharia-inspired penal codes of most Muslim countries give the benefit of the doubt to a man who kills his wife, daughter, or sister for engaging in adulterous or immoral behavior. This barbaric practice, which has not been seen in European countries in well over a century, is making an unsavory return within the Old Continent`s Muslim communities.

The effects of the application of sharia in Europe are not limited to Muslim women. Last year, in the small Italian town of Eboli, hospital workers treated a young Algerian man whose fingers on his right hand had been chopped off. Under questioning, the man refused to reveal how he had sustained his injuries, but investigators have no doubt that he was the victim of punishment carried out according to Islamic law. Authorities in southern Italy, where many migrants from North Africa flock to work in agriculture, are becoming accustomed to such incidents. A Sicilian doctor revealed to the Italian magazine Panorama that victims of violent sharia justice go to the hospital only as a last resort, ``when the bleeding is serious.`` He added that he had become knowledgeable about how amputations must be made according to Islamic tradition (the hand has to be chopped off piece by piece, without breaking any bones).

While these incidents may seem isolated, in actuality, several Muslim groups in Europe openly advocate the introduction of sharia in the West. Uneducated immigrants might use sharia simply because it is a system they are more familiar with, but militant Islamic organizations push for the introduction of Islamic law because they believe it is a superior system, the law revealed by God, and therefore the only acceptable law.

In Germany, Milli Gorus, a militant Turkish Islamic organization with more than 200,000 members, is accused by German intelligence of promoting Islamic law among Turkish immigrants in Europe. The August 2001 issue of Milli Gorus`s official publication, Milli Gazete, featured an article stating that ``A religious Muslim is also at the same time an advocate for sharia. The state, the media, and the courts have no rights to interfere. The allegiance of a Muslim to sharia cannot be condemned or questioned.``

In Britain, the rapid spread of radical Islam in urban areas has led to major social exclusion and the development of sharia among England`s Muslims. Al-Muhajiroun, a London-based fundamentalist group with sympathizers throughout Britain`s burgeoning Muslim communities, has made the struggle against ``man-made law`` one of the key points of its agenda, declaring that its members do not recognize English law, but only Islamic law. (Nevertheless, al-Muhajiroun`s leaders do not disdain collecting unemployment benefits generously granted by English ``man-made law.``)

In Italy, mainstream Muslim groups have asked for the introduction of Islamic marriages with no legal effects under Italian law, a de facto subtraction of the wedlock from the control of authorities. This request is aimed at creating a situation where two different legal systems regulate the lives of two different groups of citizens within the same state. In European legal history, it would represent a jump back to the Middle Ages, when different laws applied to different ethnicities. In practical terms, it would mean that Italian citizens of Muslim faith would be subtracted from the guarantees that the Italian legal system provides to its citizens. Therefore, while Christian Italian women would have the same rights as Italian men, Muslim Italian women would have very few rights. While a Christian woman would have the right to obtain a divorce simply by filing papers, a Muslim woman would have to go to great lengths to prove ill treatment at the hands of her husband.

Multiculturalists and leftist defenders of uncontrolled immigration, uneasy when confronted with episodes of the brutal application of sharia in Europe`s Muslim ghettoes, are quick to predict that these incidents will disappear once Muslims are wealthier and better integrated into Western society through marriage to native Europeans. Unfortunately, it doesn`t appear that these predictions will come true in the foreseeable future. Muslims in Europe account for the vast majority of those living under the poverty line, and Muslim neighborhoods are the poorest areas in nearly every European city. Furthermore, statistics show that the majority of European Muslims are not marrying indigenous Europeans but other Muslims, either from their country of origin or from within local Muslim communities.

Politically correct European politicians, ever mindful not to offend their newly arrived Muslim brethren, have done little to aid in the assimilation process. As a result, immigrants who settle in Europe`s Muslim communities are often greeted with the same sharia-inspired mayhem that they left behind in their countries of origin. From England to Holland to Greece, many European Muslims have managed to segregate themselves from society at large and maintain harsh traditions ill-suited to the West. As the number of unassimilated Muslims grows and Europe`s elites continue to remain silent, the ultimate victim may turn out to be Western civilization itself.

— Erick Stakelbeck is head writer and Lorenzo Vidino is an attorney and terrorism analyst at the Investigative Project, a Washington, D.C.-based counterterrorism think tank.

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re:#49 by kaurasach
I agree with you when you say that India should not ape the west in matters of culture. Fashion show is just one instance.

But then, who is to define what India`s culture is. Go to Goa and you see a very different (and highly westernised) culture as compared to, say Madras. Culture will keep changing depending on people`s choice and there is nothing one can do about it.

Are the Fashion shows bad? They are in as far as they showcase women as sex objects. If women do not object, then who is to stop them. Let us not forget that this kind of openness is not new to India. India is the land of Kamasutra and all those erotic sculptures in Khajraho (spell?) did not drop from the heavens. So, there was a time when these things were ``passe``. Why should the present be different?

As Gandhiji once said ``we will welcome all cultures like fresh breeze through the window but refuse to be blown away by it`` ( i do not remember the exact quote but i think i am close).
Sridhar

Harimau,

No doubt you will agree that post of Governor General existed via constitution, and the first governor general of Pakistan came to power through a legal succession enacted by the British parliament`s Government of India act and Independence of India Act. In other words unlike in General Musharraf`s self proclaimed presidency, there was no army and army coup then.

On the contrary, Musharraf is a not a leader who enjoys popular support or the legitimacy of a system.

Personally I would prefer to have an elected president who can over rule any idiotic decisions of a prime minister Jamali who is a confused fatso.

-YLH

PM/rafay_alam:
I wonder if either of you or anyone else knows the answer to this question. In case of murder and diyat, has the govt. of Pakistan fixed the amount of compensation? If so, is compensation the same for everyone or vary with the gender and religion of the victim and perpetrator? I am asking this question because I believe the sahria has different compensations for various categories.

In re PM # 57

Fair enough. Got me again.

Rafay Alam

khotasikka

You can`t really call ``amchi`` Pune as colloquial because the common Punekar does not say it. We still say ``amche`` Pune. The ``amchi`` is introduced by journalists and RJs who dont know marathi well enough, and thought that since mumbai is ``amchi mumbai``, hence pune would be ``amchi pune``.

Not that it ``offends`` my marathi-ness if someone keeps saying ``amchi`` pune. However I can`t help but correct the error. If despite it people want to keep saying ``amchi``, it`s a free country. :)

Urstruly # 50:

You got me. Your`re right, my reasoning is not solid when I state that the Order refers only to women in fashion shows. But what else could I do (one has to work with space, time and content restraints)? To be honest, my first draft of this piece had a riff along the following lines: If women are the reason why fashion shows are ``obscene``, would it be Islamic to have men in ghararas and saris walking down catwalks? But my wife objected (she is of milder disposition than myself).

In any case, I think the assumption - even though unsupported - is correct. What else about fashion shows could the government possibly object to?

Rafay Alam

re. rafay-alam #53:
``...In other words, the murderer can be said to have nothing more than a civil liability (in the form of the Diyat payment). This is true theortically, but not in practice. In my years of practice, I have never come across a case where the [killer`s] family (and here I speak of non-honor killing cases) has been spared.``

Alam sahib, what is true (in the sense of being valid) in theory is, by definition, also true in practice. It is another matter that most--not all, mind you-- killers` families are not spared. I think for anyone concerned with the law and justice, and not enamoured of seventh-century Arabian tribal jurisprudence, it is worrying enough that the practice of paying off the victim`s family is completely within the ambit of the law-- regardless of the frequency of such practice-- for all the temptations it affords the families of social `discontents` alone.

Manto:
Sad news indeed. But in a way, one to give thanks for little blessings too. May Alavi sahib`s soul rest in peace!

---

kaurasach:
You said what I would like to have, but bit my lower lip coz I`m not Indian. Good on ya!

---

Urstruly, re #50
`` One should keep in mind that fashion shows present both male and female models (and sometimes the middle sex as well). So I dont see that ``gender discrimination`` argument is a valid argument.``

I suppose Urstruly would have us believe that thise fashion shows would have been banned even if they featured males exclusively.

Oh the knots we tie ourselves up in! ~sigh!~

Re Bharatvaasi # 40:

Tort is from the old law French meaning hurt. The law of torts deals with legal obligations which exist between individuals based on the unwritten notion of a ``duty of care`` (for example, I have a duty of care not to hit someone with my car, or feed them something poisonous). The law of torts is the flip side of a coin, with the law of contract on the other side. The law of contract deals with the legal obligations which exist between people based on written agreements (for example, I have a contratual duty to pay someone I have bought a pair of shoes from).

Now, If I may be allowed to comment on Mantolives/YLH`s observation that murder in Pakistan is a tort and not a crime. I agree it`s a catchy phrase, but I don`t think it`s entirely correct.

A crime is an act which is so reprehensible that social norms, as reflected by the laws creted by the elected representatives of the people, proscribe it. Fraud is a good example. Think of a situation where I have bought a pair of shoes from you, but have refused to pay. This would normally be a contractual issue, and my liability would be in the form of damages to be paid for breach of contract (said to be a civil liability). But if it can be shown that I deliberately took the shoes from you and had no intention of paying, then social norms dictate that civil liability will not be enough to punish me: I will have to undergo a penalty of a fine along with a jail sentence (in other words, my act so violated the social fabric that I will have to have my liberty taken from me in order to restore order in the universe).

Civil liability also arises in tort cases. For example, if I breach my duty of care and drive my car rashly onto, say, a pavement and thereby injure someone, I have said to have rived negligently and will be legally bound to pay the injured person money to help him recover back to the point (or as close to it) before his accident. Still, however, my liability is civil and in the form of money. It is only if it can be shown that I intentionally drove onto the pavement in order to injure people will I incurr any criminal liability in terms of a jail sentence.

Anyway, I digress. Manolives/YLH`s point stems from the fact that the Qisas and Diyat Ordinances make it clear that even a murderer can be spared punishment if the victim`s family agree to be paid blood money. In other words, the murderer can be said to have nothing more than a civil liability (in the form of the Diyat payment). This is true theortically, but not in practice. In my years of practice, I have never come across a case where the victim`s family (and here I speak of non-honor killing cases) has been spared.

However, on the theoretical plane, I should add that all criminal acts involving (I think) injury to the body are liable to be forgiven under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinances. Thus, not only can murder be considered a tort, but so can assault, battery, rape and so on.

Rafay Alam

RE khotasikka ``Sounds just like amchi Pune. The local Shiv Sena tries each year to stop Valentine`s Day celebrations. They are successful to a large extent as well, terrorising teenagers outside college gates and setting greeting cards on fire. But it only serves to make it more appealing I think. Its funny how these clowns spit into the wind. ``

Shiv Senachi aai cha pu.... 20 years ago in Pune we had people outside the colleges giving out free roses for those who wished to give them to their Valentines....

Ref Field Marshal Romair #19

[If we follow purely Constitutional arguments, then Jamali, being the democratically elected head of Pakistan, should be supported on his banning of fashion shows (regardless of people’s personal opinion), with respect to Musharraf over-ruling him. One can make a Constitutional argument for or against Jamali on this. However, Constitutionally speaking, Musharraf shouldn’t even exist. Hence his over-rule should be opposed.]

Well, Mushy is only following Jinnah in giving orders to the elected Prime Minister.

## kaurasach #49
As far as shiv sena and other fundamentalists, i see it as one evil destroying the other.
##

Whether western influence in India is ``corrupting`` or not is something for each individual to decide. Change makes everyone uncomfortable. But to have a bunch of goons tell me about culture is really rich. Well if that was all they were doing, I`d probably give them the finger and move on. But no. These chaps rough up teenagers outside college gates and burn down cards in shops. That, my friend, is not acceptable.

Everyone has a right to be stupid. And it is enshrined in the constitution. The Sena has no business arm-twisting innocent Punekars. You are welcome to go watch the hijras. Just let me watch my FTV in peace.

fountainheader

Marathi grammar was always my weak point but I like to use Marathi nevertheless. And Punekars like us will have to discontinue being an@l-retentive about the usage. The DJs are simply reflecting a colloquialised version of the language. We have also b@astardised Hindi into Mumbaiyya. Ugich kashala bom marache. Aplya ithe spastha bolnare rahelet tari kiti. (Radio Mirchi sucks anyway.)

Rafay-Alam

This is a well argued thesis, however, at one point the argument is flimsy when you write that ``I would say that the government has not taken umbrage against fashion shows per se, but that it is the participation of women as models in fashion shows which it find objectionable. If this is so, then the Order is guilty of discriminating against women on the basis of sex alone, ...``. The argument is flimsy because Ministry has imposed restriction on fashion shows in general and not women`s participation in them in specific. One should keep in mind that fashion shows present both male and female models (and sometimes the middle sex as well). So I dont see that ``gender discrimination`` argument is a valid argument.

Generally, it is a commentary on the sad state of affairs in Pakistan. The country is virtually being run by the Presidential Orders since Zia took over the government in a coup against democratically elected Bhutto government. According to Constitution of 1973 (the original version prior to Zia) a Presidential order had to ratified by the Parliament within 3 months of its issuance otherwise it would become null and void; but Zia ammended constitution so that the PO can be ``renewed`` by the President as many times as he wants. This curse is a gift to Pakistani society by the military. And that is the reason, for the past 20 years, since Jonejo government the legislative performance of the Parliament has been pathetic. Military just do not want to give this authority to legislate themselves to civilians. They keep the parliament divided and corrupt and use Presidential (whenther in civilian disguise or in uniform) decrees to run the country.

Pathetically enough, thru this order President Musharaf has allowed Jamali to show some muscle but as you have pointed out Ministry does not have jurisdiction over the hotels to impose such order. It is shameless and miserable.

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Renowned scholar, historian, a voice of secularism, Prof Hamza Alavi who had spent his life entire life straighterning out distortions of history and mullah`s lies about Pakistan has passed away. He was 82.

A great loss to Pakistan and south asia!!!

Bharatvasi,

What I meant by that comment...

Murder in most civilized countries is a crime against the state. It was so in Pakistan as well till General Zia showed up.

Tort is a civil suit ... the remedy for which is monetary compensation usually. By implementing `Qisas and Diyat` ordinance, the status for murder has become the same. The comment was a sarcastic one.

-YLH

Romair # 19 - A good point: Why don`t people object to the banning of religious organizations? And why are they up in arms when a couple of fashion shows are cancelled? After all, there are freedom of expression issues in both cases.

My basic point in the article is that Pakistan is a country which should be run by laws, not whims. There is no law in Pakistan which authorizes the government to ban fashion shows. There is no law which says that fashion shows cannot be held on religiously sgnificant dates. Unless and until there is a law which proscribes fashion shows, the Prime Minister`s Order remains a whim. I object to any country being run on a whim.

As far the sectarian and jehadi groups are concerned, there is a law (other than the Maintenance of Public Order legislations) which permits the Federal Government to notify certain organizations and illegal and allows it to take action against them. So, to the extent that there is a law permitting action against these groups, I can have no objection to the use of the law.

But I do have an objection to the law. Banning religious ``outfits`` (as they are fashionably referred to in the press) is an issue regarding freedom of speech and expression. Furthermore, banning these groups does not eliminate the problem. Banning is a short sighted policy.

And I take the point that I have been silent. I shouldn`t have. Thank you for alerting me to the fact.

Regards,
Rafay Alam

rere: faizahussain

{what we need is more educated minds to go back to Pakistan}

..does that include people like you with college degrees who will shove religious blabber down everyone`s throats?...

dost-mittar #38, mantolives had an interesting take on this. In one of interacts he said that honor killing had something to do with TORTs. From what I know of TORT is has something to do with contractual obligations pertaining to goods, commodities and right to property. I wonder if Mantolives (YLH) could elaborate on his take. (he made this remark in the passing to Rafay Alam if I remember correctly)

What those who ban sexuality in the name of religion and “decency” don’t realize that they are creating a sexually repressed society, turning perfectly normal heterosexuals into homosexuals. It’s not by accident that Kundahar is the gay capital of the world, and Afghanistan perhaps the most anal country in the world.

I find it quite amusing (and ironic) that, for the pious and “decent”, homosexuality is perfectly acceptable but display of affection among hetroes is not!

//...you have a very superficial understanding of the whole issue. ...In any event I don`t have time for this...//

Actually - as I said, I don`t understand it at all. I have done some reading on it - but haven`t found any explanation that makes sense.

But you are right - a lot have already been said on this topic. Nobody has time for another round :)

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My apologies to dost-mittar and mantolives - Manto didnot say honor killing was a tort. He said Murder is a tort in Pakistan. Here is what Mantolives said

begin quote:
#47 by Mantolives on November 28, 2003 9:58pm PT
Romair...

Nobody is blaming the mullahs.. but the honor killing is prevalent in NWFP also.

You make an interesting point about kin and close relatives being forgiven by the `wali`... this is because Islam has pervaded into the legal code. It is through Qisas and Diyat ordinance I believe....

Because of Islam and Islamic law ... Murder is a tort in Pakistan and not a crime... tsk tsk...

What say you?

-YLH
end quote

the relevant link is http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002822&channel=university%20ave&start=10&end=19&page=2&chapter=1&order=0#47

Fountainheader:

``The Shivsena`s actions are despicable, but at least one can think of them as non-state actions.``

I was under the impression that the action took place when there was a Shiv Sena-BJP government in power in Maharasthra. You are right about these idiots from Rajnath Singh`s government. I guess it happeened in the cow belt and therefore got less attention.

Jay#33:
Thanks for referring to romair`s post. But I dont think it answers my question. The question was one of legality and I dont think ``honour killing`` is a legal term.
But some others, rafay alam (?) did provide some clues. In case you missed, these were (1) the use of sudden and grave provocation (which doesn`t always work if the murder is premeditated), and (2) the intorduction of the sharia element which has provision of forgiveness of the crime by the family, which in this case is often also the perpetrator of the crime.

Romair,

Jamali`s decision should have been challenged in courts! It was unconstitutional and there was already a precedent against it.

I am not very happy that a soldier-usurper had to intervene.

-YLH

Stuka,

How true is your observation!!! thank you.

Most Paki-bashers suffer from this ailment.... Jay being a case in point.

I pointed out on another board... there is no TNT as far as Paki-bashers and Indi-bashers are concerned.... they belong to the same nation... a nation of idiots and liars.

-YLH

Dear Jayaprakash thackerey,

Thank God not everyone in India is as imbalanced and blinded by hate as you. A G Noorani often addrsses the question of anti-Pakistan, hate mongers like you. Like always he is mostly on the dot. I thank God a million times that by virtue of being from the neighboring country, a disgusting human being like yourself is not a fellow compatriot (I thank God for Pakistan). By the same token I feel sorry for my Indian friends like Dost Mittar and Stuka... and for the majority of Indians who are nice genial people. I would not wish you upon even my enemies....

I can only hope and pray hate mongers, liars and bigots like yourself never become a majority in India or Pakistan.

Mohar,

Sadly sir, you have a very superficial understanding of the whole issue. It wouldn`t hurt to read the article by the well renowned Indian writer... that I posted a link to.


In any event I don`t have time for this.

-YLH

Rafay,

This is good news for pakistan, and the fashion perades should be in burkha, there can be various colours of it, may be some embroidary on it, the variations are endless. Thses are clear signs of pakistan eveolving to its true potential, and defining a new strain of islam, the jihadic variety.
Mushy govt is now funding the madrassas, now that the amricans have stopped all sources from arab countries. Lakers have got a global status now. At last the children of TNt are running the place.
Tragedy is that the fools in delhi think that the cease fire is going to last, it will not last 6 months. The slaughter of jihadis will be unbearable for the pak troops, and the firing will soon start.

The fundamantal difference between pak society and that of india is diverging. Even the sofisticated and the educated pakistanis one sees on chowk are not ready to consider the dead jihadis as human deaths. It does not matter to them and as long as this appalling attitude towards death is not changed, the pakistanis seeking heaven through india can only increase.

Asysmetric death is the fundamenta problem all countries face in dealing with pakistan.

Dost mitter,

You had some questions on my assertion that honour killing is not a crime in pakistan. Following quote is from a post below from none other than romair, the fervent white washer of pakistan.

``Once again, the supporters of, “Constitutional democracy” in Pakistan were quiet. Constitutionally and democratically speaking, if the elected assemblies do not want to legislate against honor killings, then what right does an unelected and unconstitutional President have to take action against it, on his own? ``

YLH

``From the elegant and nattily dressed M A Jinnah to the politicians of today who cover their shapeless kilos under the all-forgiving shalwar kameez! What a fall my countrymen.
YASSER LATIF HAMDANI ``

No YLH, it is not a fall. There were no freedom fighters in pakistan, pakistan was creted due to the divide and rule policy of the british with the support of the collaborators. The real creation of pakistan. a land for the muslims of india has just started, and the men who are dying for this cause are the jihadis, in kashmir, in afghanistan and inturkey. The poor who struggle in the madrassas are the creators of pakistan, the freedomfighters for the future of indian muslims. Once this true islamic country is created, the muslims of india will flocjk there true to the vision of its creator.

You as a child of TNT could rise to power in this country that dying jihadis are creating. Like your admired leader you are sipping may be sherry, while supporting the jihadis by not condeming their actions, by not calling for the stopping of killings.

Pakistan problem is not jihadis, but jihad itself. Make a beginning YLH, pen a one liner, jihad is not killing of kafirs. The educated pakistanis have to say that, and that would be a beginning. No, on one is waiting for that.

Mantolives No14;

From your letter:

~~There has to be some other explanation for the prime minister’s decision. Could it be that Mr Jamali is jealous of elegant models, given his own ‘healthy’ physical structure?~~

Hilarious!

;-)

khotasikka #2

As a Puneite/Punekar, allow me to correct you. It is ``aamche Pune``, not ``amchi``. Amchi is the grammatically correct pronoun for Mumbai. In fact every time I hear those Radio Jockeys say ``amchi`` Pune, I wonder why they want to show off their limited marathi.

Stuka,

The Shivsena`s actions are despicable, but at least one can think of them as non-state actions. What is irritating is that the erstwhile BJP government of Rajnath Singh banned beauty paegants in Uttar Pradesh, and the erstwhile BJP Cm in Uttaranchal banned ``western concerts`` there. What is weirder is that one wonder which religious or cultural norms were those things breaking? The common man is apathetic to this. By the time we realise it will be too late and we will have a full fledged Hindu Taliban on our hands.

Khotasikka #15, #22

Mark my words, the Sena will unravel and cease to exist within 5 years of Bal Thackeray`s death(whenever that happens). It is an ideologically bankrupt party with their emnphasis being on anti-something. anti-gujju, anti-northie, anti-muslim, anti-west.....while they organise shows by michael jackson. raj and uddhav lack the charisma and oratory of Bal. they have musclke, but muscle will not last once they lose their support amongs the lower middle class, which they surely will after thackeray dies. These are the people who vandalised the 1983 cricket world cup that we won.

By the way, what stops you(or even me) from filing a PIL against the sena?

cipram,

.......... is shab-i-barat a religious occasion?.............. with the fireworks and everything else, i thought it was the local equivalent of guy fawkes day or the fourth of july ............when i was growing up, all we did on shab-i-barat was set off patakas, bombs, anars, hawais and run around with phuljaris ......... once in a while we would set off a big bomb ( those things tied up with suter the cost a rupee each) .......... even more fun was putting a string of lighted patakas in a can - the noise would deter any angel from coming down to earth!............. of course my mother would make halwa or kheer and send it out to the neighbors in doily covered plates ............ but i really don`t remember it being a religious occasssion ................ what happened?......... who religiosized it and why ?