Banning Fashion Shows

Dost mitter,

You had some questions on my assertion that honour killing is not a crime in pakistan. Following quote is from a post below from none other than romair, the fervent white washer of pakistan.

``Once again, the supporters of, “Constitutional democracy” in Pakistan were quiet. Constitutionally and democratically speaking, if the elected assemblies do not want to legislate against honor killings, then what right does an unelected and unconstitutional President have to take action against it, on his own? ``

Rafay,

This is good news for pakistan, and the fashion perades should be in burkha, there can be various colours of it, may be some embroidary on it, the variations are endless. Thses are clear signs of pakistan eveolving to its true potential, and defining a new strain of islam, the jihadic variety.
Mushy govt is now funding the madrassas, now that the amricans have stopped all sources from arab countries. Lakers have got a global status now. At last the children of TNt are running the place.
Tragedy is that the fools in delhi think that the cease fire is going to last, it will not last 6 months. The slaughter of jihadis will be unbearable for the pak troops, and the firing will soon start.

The fundamantal difference between pak society and that of india is diverging. Even the sofisticated and the educated pakistanis one sees on chowk are not ready to consider the dead jihadis as human deaths. It does not matter to them and as long as this appalling attitude towards death is not changed, the pakistanis seeking heaven through india can only increase.

Asysmetric death is the fundamenta problem all countries face in dealing with pakistan.

Dear Jayaprakash thackerey,

Thank God not everyone in India is as imbalanced and blinded by hate as you. A G Noorani often addrsses the question of anti-Pakistan, hate mongers like you. Like always he is mostly on the dot. I thank God a million times that by virtue of being from the neighboring country, a disgusting human being like yourself is not a fellow compatriot (I thank God for Pakistan). By the same token I feel sorry for my Indian friends like Dost Mittar and Stuka... and for the majority of Indians who are nice genial people. I would not wish you upon even my enemies....

I can only hope and pray hate mongers, liars and bigots like yourself never become a majority in India or Pakistan.

Mohar,

Sadly sir, you have a very superficial understanding of the whole issue. It wouldn`t hurt to read the article by the well renowned Indian writer... that I posted a link to.


In any event I don`t have time for this.

-YLH

Stuka,

How true is your observation!!! thank you.

Most Paki-bashers suffer from this ailment.... Jay being a case in point.

I pointed out on another board... there is no TNT as far as Paki-bashers and Indi-bashers are concerned.... they belong to the same nation... a nation of idiots and liars.

-YLH

Romair,

Jamali`s decision should have been challenged in courts! It was unconstitutional and there was already a precedent against it.

I am not very happy that a soldier-usurper had to intervene.

-YLH

Jay#33:
Thanks for referring to romair`s post. But I dont think it answers my question. The question was one of legality and I dont think ``honour killing`` is a legal term.
But some others, rafay alam (?) did provide some clues. In case you missed, these were (1) the use of sudden and grave provocation (which doesn`t always work if the murder is premeditated), and (2) the intorduction of the sharia element which has provision of forgiveness of the crime by the family, which in this case is often also the perpetrator of the crime.

Fountainheader:

``The Shivsena`s actions are despicable, but at least one can think of them as non-state actions.``

I was under the impression that the action took place when there was a Shiv Sena-BJP government in power in Maharasthra. You are right about these idiots from Rajnath Singh`s government. I guess it happeened in the cow belt and therefore got less attention.

My apologies to dost-mittar and mantolives - Manto didnot say honor killing was a tort. He said Murder is a tort in Pakistan. Here is what Mantolives said

begin quote:
#47 by Mantolives on November 28, 2003 9:58pm PT
Romair...

Nobody is blaming the mullahs.. but the honor killing is prevalent in NWFP also.

You make an interesting point about kin and close relatives being forgiven by the `wali`... this is because Islam has pervaded into the legal code. It is through Qisas and Diyat ordinance I believe....

Because of Islam and Islamic law ... Murder is a tort in Pakistan and not a crime... tsk tsk...

What say you?

-YLH
end quote

the relevant link is http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002822&channel=university%20ave&start=10&end=19&page=2&chapter=1&order=0#47

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//...you have a very superficial understanding of the whole issue. ...In any event I don`t have time for this...//

Actually - as I said, I don`t understand it at all. I have done some reading on it - but haven`t found any explanation that makes sense.

But you are right - a lot have already been said on this topic. Nobody has time for another round :)

What those who ban sexuality in the name of religion and “decency” don’t realize that they are creating a sexually repressed society, turning perfectly normal heterosexuals into homosexuals. It’s not by accident that Kundahar is the gay capital of the world, and Afghanistan perhaps the most anal country in the world.

I find it quite amusing (and ironic) that, for the pious and “decent”, homosexuality is perfectly acceptable but display of affection among hetroes is not!

dost-mittar #38, mantolives had an interesting take on this. In one of interacts he said that honor killing had something to do with TORTs. From what I know of TORT is has something to do with contractual obligations pertaining to goods, commodities and right to property. I wonder if Mantolives (YLH) could elaborate on his take. (he made this remark in the passing to Rafay Alam if I remember correctly)

rere: faizahussain

{what we need is more educated minds to go back to Pakistan}

..does that include people like you with college degrees who will shove religious blabber down everyone`s throats?...

Romair # 19 - A good point: Why don`t people object to the banning of religious organizations? And why are they up in arms when a couple of fashion shows are cancelled? After all, there are freedom of expression issues in both cases.

My basic point in the article is that Pakistan is a country which should be run by laws, not whims. There is no law in Pakistan which authorizes the government to ban fashion shows. There is no law which says that fashion shows cannot be held on religiously sgnificant dates. Unless and until there is a law which proscribes fashion shows, the Prime Minister`s Order remains a whim. I object to any country being run on a whim.

As far the sectarian and jehadi groups are concerned, there is a law (other than the Maintenance of Public Order legislations) which permits the Federal Government to notify certain organizations and illegal and allows it to take action against them. So, to the extent that there is a law permitting action against these groups, I can have no objection to the use of the law.

But I do have an objection to the law. Banning religious ``outfits`` (as they are fashionably referred to in the press) is an issue regarding freedom of speech and expression. Furthermore, banning these groups does not eliminate the problem. Banning is a short sighted policy.

And I take the point that I have been silent. I shouldn`t have. Thank you for alerting me to the fact.

Regards,
Rafay Alam

Bharatvasi,

What I meant by that comment...

Murder in most civilized countries is a crime against the state. It was so in Pakistan as well till General Zia showed up.

Tort is a civil suit ... the remedy for which is monetary compensation usually. By implementing `Qisas and Diyat` ordinance, the status for murder has become the same. The comment was a sarcastic one.

-YLH

Renowned scholar, historian, a voice of secularism, Prof Hamza Alavi who had spent his life entire life straighterning out distortions of history and mullah`s lies about Pakistan has passed away. He was 82.

A great loss to Pakistan and south asia!!!