Banning Fashion Shows

well said rafay alam! good article.

Sounds just like amchi Pune. The local Shiv Sena tries each year to stop Valentine`s Day celebrations. They are successful to a large extent as well, terrorising teenagers outside college gates and setting greeting cards on fire. But it only serves to make it more appealing I think. Its funny how these clowns spit into the wind.

On a related note, this fashion show business must be taking a leaf out of our big-dot ``information`` minister Sushmajee. Amazing how much they have in common.

Talibanization is gradually, but surely, creeping in .....

Just back in 1966, I have seen Cabarets in Karachi & there were Bars in all main hotels. There used to be Liddo, Excellceur, Taj. Foreign Bands played routinely at big hotels.

These Pakistani over-dressed Fashion Shows can hardly titillate any nerve.

nazar sahib, your post #3, raised a chuckle here. The last sentence is a gem.....

``These Pakistani over-dressed Fashion Shows can hardly titillate any nerve. ``

I am sure there are many who would vehemently disagree with your sentiments.

Rafay:

1: enjoyed your begum ripartee on the other board;)
2: this is good
3: this reminds me to brush up my fictional miss hoor pakistan piece did much before the bearded brigade appeared over the horizon and send it in for publication...thanks
4: have a good day

...t

At least the Mullahs do it out of piety. The Shiv Sena does it as a measure of extortion. Those outlets willing to donate money to Shiv Sena are saved.

This article is good. But I wish it had been written by an Indian about the badmashi taking place in India by our own version of stormtroopers. I am coming around to the view that Indians lack the capability of self criticism.

Rafay:

i hope you will forgive this intrusion...really!...

---

Dear Friends,

I hope this mail finds you in the best of health and spirits. Unfortunately, my e-mail was hacked and the password alongwith my personal profile was changed within two days of sending you the mail with the subject ``The price for being vocal in Pakistan`s democracy``. The mail also contained an attachment ``seeking your support`` which was addressed to Friends believing in principles of Democracy and Human Rights. As you must have read the attached letter, it was about my father Makhdoom Javed Hashmi`s illegal detention and my plight of knocking the Government doors in vain. The purpose of writing this letter was to seek support from members of the civil society in individual or organizational capacity:

to raise a voice against the illegal detention of Makhdoom Javed Hashmi, and,
in urging the Government to respect the basic human and constitutional rights of Javed Hashmi and, to release him immediately.
Since I have just regained access to my account after a very lengthy procedure, I have come to know that the person who was misusing my account has deleted all my mails including the ones with solidarity messages and other postive feedback. I want to thank you all for your very positive, encouraging and prompt response to my mail and would like to request you to send your messages again (sent during this period) if they are still with you in your ``sent`` folders. I would be most grateful and would love to read them.

I would also like to update you on my father`s case:

Rule 90 of conducting the National Assembly business clearly empowers the National Assembly speaker to order the production of a detained member in the House, but he did not do so. By not issuing production order, the speaker has certainly set a bad parliamentary precedent, indicative of a helpless functionary, that he is. Can he be called custodian of the House anymore?
A copy of the FIR was not provided for building the line of legal defense and consequently it was not possible for the petitioner`s lawyers to argue the case. The Lahore High Court after 12 days of my father`s arrest directed the prosecution to provide the copies of the FIR and the remand report of Makhdoom Javed Hashmi to the petitioner.
A civil court granted permission to me and three counsels to meet my father in the Adiala jail but the deputy superintendent refused to obey the court orders on the pretext that the Jail superintendent is not present in his office.
After meeting my father for the first time in 18 days, I came to know that he had been subjected to severe mental and physical torture. In his own words: ``My hair was pulled. My head was repeatedly banged against brick walls. I was kept blindfolded in a pitch-dark pit for days. While wrapped around in blindfolds, I was poked with the nozzles of gun. I heard my captors around me, screaming obscenities at me, and shouting `kill him, kill him.` My blindfold was removed only to further blind me with blasts of several thousand watts of electric light, burning, round the clock, inches from above my head. For days and nights my captors kept me awake, thirsty, and hungry to break me down.``
He also received multiple injuries as he was forcefully shoved around the four walls of the room where he was kept for interrogation. In addition to all this, he is being kept in solitary confinement and as if that was not enough, despite his repeated requests he was not allowed access to medical examination. Even the family members were not allowed to hand over medicines and some other necessary items to someone who is asthamatic and has recently undergone a major surgery. All this treatment to Makhdoom Javed Hashmi certainly speaks volumes of government`s vindicative policies.
Rawalpindi bench of the Lahore High Court on November 17,2003 dismissed the habeas corpus writ petition.
On November 20, Civil Judge Rana Amar Salim rejected the petition for Makhdoom Javed Hashmi`s medical check up too.
I again request you to please take up this matter urgently at all possible levels in whatever capacity you can, and save not only the life of my father, but also the future of democracy in this country. I hope the civil society comprising of vocal advocates of human rights and democracy, would not let me down.



With hopes of solidarity,

Mamoona Hashmi.

(Member National Assembly of Pakistan)

Islamabad-Pakistan

What an irony. Yesterday I watched glittering Gladrags Mrs.India show on Sony channel. All Mrs. with bikinis and fabulous attractive evening gowns. I did not know Indian married women are that beautiful. The show was produced and sponsered by Bombay Dyeing corporation owned by ...Founding Father of Pakistan, Barrister Jinnah.

Indian:

correction....it is owned by the grandson...heri to the petit fortune...jinnah disowned her daughter and had nothing to do with her after she married of her own free will...feel should tell you this before yasser makes a federal case out of it...;)

...t

Hello Sir Alam

You have written a wonderful article (okara one was also great). First of all, I am surprised that with an economy that is marked by incessant reccessions, the booming fashion industry is being targeted. I would like for the Prime Minister to delineate the so called ``national culture`` that he seems to hold in such high regards and thinks that fashion shows are threatening it. Which culture is he referring to, the culture that renders women as second class citizens, the culture that nurtures patriarchy in its full form and essence, the culture that incessantly obstructs the rights of females, etc. Why don`t they shift their focus and concern themselvese more with issues that are promoting evils of society such as gang rape thanks to jirga system, lack of health care especially for pregnant females, illiteracy, ever-increasing poverty, etc. They banned male doctors from examining female patients in NWFP. This is not even Islam, this is our Mullahs tyirng to play Gods in the name of Islam. It is ok for women to die, but God forbid if a male comes near them to provide healthcare. There is nothing democaratic about Pakistan, each province seems to be ruled by some form of theocracy that is nothing more than a corrupt group of individuals who are abusing power in the name of religion and ethics.
They definitely won`t be successful in banning fashion shows, because Pakistan`s populace is no longer the weak souls that were once subjugated to follow absurd laws of Mr.Haque.

Thanks for the kind words so far.

A few weeks ago, someone explained just how subjective something like obscenity is. To some, I was told, obscenity was nudity. To others, it was bad furniture.

Actually, this article is a bit out of date. Since I wrote it (about three weeks ago), the grapevine has informed me that Prime Minister Jamali has quietly recalled his instructions (or government officers were instructed to disregard them, or both) after getting a bit of a lecture from President Musharraf. The new policy is to allow fashion shows, but to restrict them on religious holidays (Q: Do Christmas or Divali count) and Ramadan.

But there are other aspects to this article which remain relevant. Most importantly is the government seems to have no problem stepping in and interfering with the contracts of private parties. Now, if I buy a ticket to a fashion show, I do so with the knowledge of what I will encounter. The point is: I have bought a ticket with my eyes open and using my own money. Where does the government get off telling me I can`t go? (I recognize the caveat here that contracts against public policy are void, but let me at least illustrate the point).

Rafay Alam

Indian:

i have been advised i am wrong...Jinnah never broke off from his daughter...thanks yasser

this from his Jinnah`s Will

(10) I direct my executors to set apart Rs. 200,000/- (two lacs) or (two hundred thousands) which will at 6% bring an income of Rs. 1,000/- one thousand and pay the income thereof whatever it be to my daughter every month for her life or during her lifetime and after her death the corpus of two lacs so set apart to be divided equally between her children, males or females, in default of issue the corpus to fall into my residuary estate.

temporal ...

You are right :). Jinnah never disowned his daughter. Historians like Syed Ahmed (of 3rd grade Pakistan studies fame) invented the story to `protect the ideological frontiers`... sadly even a historian like Wolpert was taken in by Paki-propaganda. Undoubtedly as a leader of the Muslims Jinnah`s position was compromised or threatened atleast given his daughter`s marriage and that Mullahs were out on a campaign against him at the time ..they had been against him because he had opposed the JUH`s famous `NWFP Shariat bill` (the first shariat bill in this region) in the legislative assembley and then had defended Khoja practice of Hindu customary law instead of Muslim law of succession. Yet he never disowned his daughter leaving her over 200000 rupees in his will, and keeping in constant touch with her as even Akbar S ahmed affirms this in his other wise horrible book in Jinnah.


Jinnah`s will can be found in Jinnah papers... he had considerable business interests in India, as well as shares and securities.... including tattaand as per A G Noorani even in Air India... despite being a `foreign head of state` Jinnah paid his taxes for 1947/48 in advcance as a citizen of India (as he had indicated to `Jawaharlal` that he intended to return to Bombay and live in his house) ... this too as per A G Noorani`s recent article in frontline.

Jinnah`s will on Jinnah society website:

http://www.majinnah.com.pk/html_files/quaid_will.htm

A G Noorani`s article in frontline:

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2022/stories/20031107000407500.htm

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_15-11-2003_pg3_9

Fashioning bans

Sir: Our prime minister in Islamabad, Mir Zafarullah Jamali seems to have slapped a ban on fashion shows. Recently the fashion shows that have been held in our country were elegant affairs that helped put Pakistan on the map of the fashion world. Credit for this goes to the creative genius of our fashion designers. To ban them for being vulgar just doesn’t make sense. Considering that nothing in these fashion shows can compare with the vulgarity exhibited at mujrahs that are held in the palaces of our feudal elite, tribal leaders and landlords. And it is such people that make up the leadership of King’s party, or rather most mainstream parties.

There has to be some other explanation for the prime minister’s decision. Could it be that Mr Jamali is jealous of elegant models, given his own ‘healthy’ physical structure? From the elegant and nattily dressed M A Jinnah to the politicians of today who cover their shapeless kilos under the all-forgiving shalwar kameez! What a fall my countrymen.
YASSER LATIF HAMDANI
Lahore

stuka #6
##
At least the Mullahs do it out of piety. The Shiv Sena does it as a measure of extortion.
##

The Sena has always been seen as a bunch of goondas by the majority. That makes them popular in lower middle class and poor areas. But they aspire to get mindshare in a larger class base.

The Valentine`s day rubbish they try is their feeble attempt to espouse a ``cultural`` cause and thereby ride on it. Unfortunately, not many support this but they can`t withdraw because it would make them lose face.

They tried to offer help to the Asiatic Library in Mumbai as well. Their help was spurned by the management. Balasaheb knows he`s in deep $hit anyways. He is on the last leg of his life and his son is incompetent to pick up where he left off. For all their hue and cry about Congress being a monarchy, they are doing exactly the same thing. Ho hum.

Prime TV aired a Fashion show on Eid held in Royal Albert Hall in London
thats not the news.
the news is that General Pervaiz Musharaf was present in that show . He stood up and waved to the audience....
I am sure he had a good time...we all did.
let`s hope he votes against this...

Stuka #6,

To a large extent, your observation is correct about Indian chowkies. Of course we
have several notable exceptions (yourself included), but I think we tend to be rather
thin skinned even about perceived criticisms.

To be fair, though, I think the Valentines Day stupidity of the Shiv Sena has been
condemned here in the past. Perhaps it doesn`t deserve an article - seldom should
monkeys be given centerstage.

Temporal,

Thanks. I knew that Mr. Jinnah did not disown his daughter, I just I did not have the proof.

Rafay-Alam #11 “Since I wrote it (about three weeks ago), the grapevine has informed me that Prime Minister Jamali has quietly recalled his instructions (or government officers were instructed to disregard them, or both) after getting a bit of a lecture from President Musharraf.”

Just out of curiosity, did anyone, including lawyers, oppose Musharraf’s unconstitutional over-ruling of Jamali?

There seems to be an interesting double-standard, I have noticed, amongst Pakistan’s various die-hard Constitution and democracy supporters: When Jamali makes a decision that this group dislikes, and Musharraf over-rules it, people conveniently forget about democracy and the Constitution. Similarly when Musharraf makes unconstitutional decisions that this groups likes (e.g. putting mullahs in jail, without due process), this group keeps quite also.

However, when it sounds good and suits this group, it raises loud slogans for the Constitution and democracy.

If we follow purely Constitutional arguments, then Jamali, being the democratically elected head of Pakistan, should be supported on his banning of fashion shows (regardless of people’s personal opinion), with respect to Musharraf over-ruling him. One can make a Constitutional argument for or against Jamali on this. However, Constitutionally speaking, Musharraf shouldn’t even exist. Hence his over-rule should be opposed.

Similarly, on the honor killing cases. Pakistan’s elected assembly is not even willing to hear any proposed legislation against honor-killing, much less vote against it. On the other hand, recently, the President using his own authority (which is unconstitutional) ordered an investigation into an honor killing.

Once again, the supporters of, “Constitutional democracy” in Pakistan were quiet. Constitutionally and democratically speaking, if the elected assemblies do not want to legislate against honor killings, then what right does an unelected and unconstitutional President have to take action against it, on his own?

I think Pakistanis either need to accept the decisions of the elected assembly, and the elected Prime Ministers, as ridiculous as they may seem. Or they need to accept that Pakistan’s democracy and Constitution lack the pre-requisites, at the moment. And thus base their decisions on common sense; thereby supporting certain unconstitutional decisions also, like Musharraf’s over-ruling of Jamali on certain occasions.

One cannot run with the hares and hunt with the hounds.

Re : Romair # 19
That’s a very interesting post and you make a very valid point. We in India are guaranteed civil liberties. The govt. in our country cannot pass any law that violates these liberties. Do you have civil liberties in your constitution ? I have assumed that you are referring to the 1973 constitution.

Regards,

Faruk

Now Islam should be renamed to ``Taboo``.

Its reverse Talibanisation in Pakistan:

To claim that Pakistan is on the road of Talibanisation may be true if we compare affairs with those of several decades ago, of which I am not aware, but to claim that it is continuing even today, is far from reality.

Even in the NWFP, urbanites generally do not oppose music and fashion shows. This is natural. One has to understand for example that after Urdu and Punjabi, only Pashto cinema has kept things running in Pakistan. Pathan actors and actresses have been in-demand Urdu movie and TV actors too.

If one watches any of the Pakistani channels, then he / she will agree that its the process of reverse Talibanaisation in Pakistan. Things will remain decidedly conservative in the NWFP and Balochistan, but Punjab and Sindh will continue to provide the much needed show-bizz related entertainment to the countrymen.

## Plats #17
To be fair, though, I think the Valentines Day stupidity of the Shiv Sena has been condemned here in the past.
##

What is needed is for a PIL to be filed to drag these lafangas into court. Judicial activism could cure some of their madness.

#13 by Mantolives
//..as he had indicated to `Jawaharlal` that he intended to return to Bombay and live in his house..//

Hold on a second here! So Jinnah wanted to return to India ( Hindustan, his preferred name ) and live with Hindus - after creating a whole new country because he believed that muslims cannot live with hindus???

I don`t get it!!!

//... sadly even a historian like Wolpert was taken in by Paki-propaganda...//

So Pakis do propaganda against the founder of their own country??

Man - pakis are the wierdest of people!!

Would the writer object to having these applied on a case-by-case basis to fashion shows that cross the line (legally)? I find it odd that the show itself is what is being banned...that`s odd...wouldn`t be the first odd thing about Pakistan, though...

Let`s speak in tangible terms. A fashion model wears a mini-skirt. There`s an uproar. Someone wants to charge the model with obscenity. What is your stand? Be realistic. Wishy-washy ``that`s not obscene`` argument doesn`t fly, since in the context of Pakistan`s conservative culture that is obscene...

To satisfy the millions of hypocrites living in Pakistan , it is the easiest way.

All good people should leave the country. Talibanisation is in progress and I fear within 15 years, it will be totally a Talibanistan.

If a country is ruled by senseless waderas, cruel jageerdars and brainless armymen, what better can we expect ?

Leaving the country is not the solution, what we need is more educated minds to go back to Pakistan and engage in non-profit social organizations to bring an end to the chaos and corruption that has ruled Pakistan since its conception. And you can even engage in volunteer work while away from Pakistan so don`t take the denial/neglect route because all of us have to duty when it comes to our native country. If not that, then maybe just as humans we can lend a helping held. Humanity seeks no citizenship....

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cipram,

.......... is shab-i-barat a religious occasion?.............. with the fireworks and everything else, i thought it was the local equivalent of guy fawkes day or the fourth of july ............when i was growing up, all we did on shab-i-barat was set off patakas, bombs, anars, hawais and run around with phuljaris ......... once in a while we would set off a big bomb ( those things tied up with suter the cost a rupee each) .......... even more fun was putting a string of lighted patakas in a can - the noise would deter any angel from coming down to earth!............. of course my mother would make halwa or kheer and send it out to the neighbors in doily covered plates ............ but i really don`t remember it being a religious occasssion ................ what happened?......... who religiosized it and why ?

khotasikka #2

As a Puneite/Punekar, allow me to correct you. It is ``aamche Pune``, not ``amchi``. Amchi is the grammatically correct pronoun for Mumbai. In fact every time I hear those Radio Jockeys say ``amchi`` Pune, I wonder why they want to show off their limited marathi.

Stuka,

The Shivsena`s actions are despicable, but at least one can think of them as non-state actions. What is irritating is that the erstwhile BJP government of Rajnath Singh banned beauty paegants in Uttar Pradesh, and the erstwhile BJP Cm in Uttaranchal banned ``western concerts`` there. What is weirder is that one wonder which religious or cultural norms were those things breaking? The common man is apathetic to this. By the time we realise it will be too late and we will have a full fledged Hindu Taliban on our hands.

Khotasikka #15, #22

Mark my words, the Sena will unravel and cease to exist within 5 years of Bal Thackeray`s death(whenever that happens). It is an ideologically bankrupt party with their emnphasis being on anti-something. anti-gujju, anti-northie, anti-muslim, anti-west.....while they organise shows by michael jackson. raj and uddhav lack the charisma and oratory of Bal. they have musclke, but muscle will not last once they lose their support amongs the lower middle class, which they surely will after thackeray dies. These are the people who vandalised the 1983 cricket world cup that we won.

By the way, what stops you(or even me) from filing a PIL against the sena?

Mantolives No14;

From your letter:

~~There has to be some other explanation for the prime minister’s decision. Could it be that Mr Jamali is jealous of elegant models, given his own ‘healthy’ physical structure?~~

Hilarious!

;-)

YLH

``From the elegant and nattily dressed M A Jinnah to the politicians of today who cover their shapeless kilos under the all-forgiving shalwar kameez! What a fall my countrymen.
YASSER LATIF HAMDANI ``

No YLH, it is not a fall. There were no freedom fighters in pakistan, pakistan was creted due to the divide and rule policy of the british with the support of the collaborators. The real creation of pakistan. a land for the muslims of india has just started, and the men who are dying for this cause are the jihadis, in kashmir, in afghanistan and inturkey. The poor who struggle in the madrassas are the creators of pakistan, the freedomfighters for the future of indian muslims. Once this true islamic country is created, the muslims of india will flocjk there true to the vision of its creator.

You as a child of TNT could rise to power in this country that dying jihadis are creating. Like your admired leader you are sipping may be sherry, while supporting the jihadis by not condeming their actions, by not calling for the stopping of killings.

Pakistan problem is not jihadis, but jihad itself. Make a beginning YLH, pen a one liner, jihad is not killing of kafirs. The educated pakistanis have to say that, and that would be a beginning. No, on one is waiting for that.

Dost mitter,

You had some questions on my assertion that honour killing is not a crime in pakistan. Following quote is from a post below from none other than romair, the fervent white washer of pakistan.

``Once again, the supporters of, “Constitutional democracy” in Pakistan were quiet. Constitutionally and democratically speaking, if the elected assemblies do not want to legislate against honor killings, then what right does an unelected and unconstitutional President have to take action against it, on his own? ``

Rafay,

This is good news for pakistan, and the fashion perades should be in burkha, there can be various colours of it, may be some embroidary on it, the variations are endless. Thses are clear signs of pakistan eveolving to its true potential, and defining a new strain of islam, the jihadic variety.
Mushy govt is now funding the madrassas, now that the amricans have stopped all sources from arab countries. Lakers have got a global status now. At last the children of TNt are running the place.
Tragedy is that the fools in delhi think that the cease fire is going to last, it will not last 6 months. The slaughter of jihadis will be unbearable for the pak troops, and the firing will soon start.

The fundamantal difference between pak society and that of india is diverging. Even the sofisticated and the educated pakistanis one sees on chowk are not ready to consider the dead jihadis as human deaths. It does not matter to them and as long as this appalling attitude towards death is not changed, the pakistanis seeking heaven through india can only increase.

Asysmetric death is the fundamenta problem all countries face in dealing with pakistan.

Dear Jayaprakash thackerey,

Thank God not everyone in India is as imbalanced and blinded by hate as you. A G Noorani often addrsses the question of anti-Pakistan, hate mongers like you. Like always he is mostly on the dot. I thank God a million times that by virtue of being from the neighboring country, a disgusting human being like yourself is not a fellow compatriot (I thank God for Pakistan). By the same token I feel sorry for my Indian friends like Dost Mittar and Stuka... and for the majority of Indians who are nice genial people. I would not wish you upon even my enemies....

I can only hope and pray hate mongers, liars and bigots like yourself never become a majority in India or Pakistan.

Mohar,

Sadly sir, you have a very superficial understanding of the whole issue. It wouldn`t hurt to read the article by the well renowned Indian writer... that I posted a link to.


In any event I don`t have time for this.

-YLH

Stuka,

How true is your observation!!! thank you.

Most Paki-bashers suffer from this ailment.... Jay being a case in point.

I pointed out on another board... there is no TNT as far as Paki-bashers and Indi-bashers are concerned.... they belong to the same nation... a nation of idiots and liars.

-YLH

Romair,

Jamali`s decision should have been challenged in courts! It was unconstitutional and there was already a precedent against it.

I am not very happy that a soldier-usurper had to intervene.

-YLH

Jay#33:
Thanks for referring to romair`s post. But I dont think it answers my question. The question was one of legality and I dont think ``honour killing`` is a legal term.
But some others, rafay alam (?) did provide some clues. In case you missed, these were (1) the use of sudden and grave provocation (which doesn`t always work if the murder is premeditated), and (2) the intorduction of the sharia element which has provision of forgiveness of the crime by the family, which in this case is often also the perpetrator of the crime.

Fountainheader:

``The Shivsena`s actions are despicable, but at least one can think of them as non-state actions.``

I was under the impression that the action took place when there was a Shiv Sena-BJP government in power in Maharasthra. You are right about these idiots from Rajnath Singh`s government. I guess it happeened in the cow belt and therefore got less attention.

My apologies to dost-mittar and mantolives - Manto didnot say honor killing was a tort. He said Murder is a tort in Pakistan. Here is what Mantolives said

begin quote:
#47 by Mantolives on November 28, 2003 9:58pm PT
Romair...

Nobody is blaming the mullahs.. but the honor killing is prevalent in NWFP also.

You make an interesting point about kin and close relatives being forgiven by the `wali`... this is because Islam has pervaded into the legal code. It is through Qisas and Diyat ordinance I believe....

Because of Islam and Islamic law ... Murder is a tort in Pakistan and not a crime... tsk tsk...

What say you?

-YLH
end quote

the relevant link is http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002822&channel=university%20ave&start=10&end=19&page=2&chapter=1&order=0#47

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//...you have a very superficial understanding of the whole issue. ...In any event I don`t have time for this...//

Actually - as I said, I don`t understand it at all. I have done some reading on it - but haven`t found any explanation that makes sense.

But you are right - a lot have already been said on this topic. Nobody has time for another round :)

What those who ban sexuality in the name of religion and “decency” don’t realize that they are creating a sexually repressed society, turning perfectly normal heterosexuals into homosexuals. It’s not by accident that Kundahar is the gay capital of the world, and Afghanistan perhaps the most anal country in the world.

I find it quite amusing (and ironic) that, for the pious and “decent”, homosexuality is perfectly acceptable but display of affection among hetroes is not!

dost-mittar #38, mantolives had an interesting take on this. In one of interacts he said that honor killing had something to do with TORTs. From what I know of TORT is has something to do with contractual obligations pertaining to goods, commodities and right to property. I wonder if Mantolives (YLH) could elaborate on his take. (he made this remark in the passing to Rafay Alam if I remember correctly)

rere: faizahussain

{what we need is more educated minds to go back to Pakistan}

..does that include people like you with college degrees who will shove religious blabber down everyone`s throats?...

Romair # 19 - A good point: Why don`t people object to the banning of religious organizations? And why are they up in arms when a couple of fashion shows are cancelled? After all, there are freedom of expression issues in both cases.

My basic point in the article is that Pakistan is a country which should be run by laws, not whims. There is no law in Pakistan which authorizes the government to ban fashion shows. There is no law which says that fashion shows cannot be held on religiously sgnificant dates. Unless and until there is a law which proscribes fashion shows, the Prime Minister`s Order remains a whim. I object to any country being run on a whim.

As far the sectarian and jehadi groups are concerned, there is a law (other than the Maintenance of Public Order legislations) which permits the Federal Government to notify certain organizations and illegal and allows it to take action against them. So, to the extent that there is a law permitting action against these groups, I can have no objection to the use of the law.

But I do have an objection to the law. Banning religious ``outfits`` (as they are fashionably referred to in the press) is an issue regarding freedom of speech and expression. Furthermore, banning these groups does not eliminate the problem. Banning is a short sighted policy.

And I take the point that I have been silent. I shouldn`t have. Thank you for alerting me to the fact.

Regards,
Rafay Alam

Bharatvasi,

What I meant by that comment...

Murder in most civilized countries is a crime against the state. It was so in Pakistan as well till General Zia showed up.

Tort is a civil suit ... the remedy for which is monetary compensation usually. By implementing `Qisas and Diyat` ordinance, the status for murder has become the same. The comment was a sarcastic one.

-YLH

Renowned scholar, historian, a voice of secularism, Prof Hamza Alavi who had spent his life entire life straighterning out distortions of history and mullah`s lies about Pakistan has passed away. He was 82.

A great loss to Pakistan and south asia!!!

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Rafay-Alam

This is a well argued thesis, however, at one point the argument is flimsy when you write that ``I would say that the government has not taken umbrage against fashion shows per se, but that it is the participation of women as models in fashion shows which it find objectionable. If this is so, then the Order is guilty of discriminating against women on the basis of sex alone, ...``. The argument is flimsy because Ministry has imposed restriction on fashion shows in general and not women`s participation in them in specific. One should keep in mind that fashion shows present both male and female models (and sometimes the middle sex as well). So I dont see that ``gender discrimination`` argument is a valid argument.

Generally, it is a commentary on the sad state of affairs in Pakistan. The country is virtually being run by the Presidential Orders since Zia took over the government in a coup against democratically elected Bhutto government. According to Constitution of 1973 (the original version prior to Zia) a Presidential order had to ratified by the Parliament within 3 months of its issuance otherwise it would become null and void; but Zia ammended constitution so that the PO can be ``renewed`` by the President as many times as he wants. This curse is a gift to Pakistani society by the military. And that is the reason, for the past 20 years, since Jonejo government the legislative performance of the Parliament has been pathetic. Military just do not want to give this authority to legislate themselves to civilians. They keep the parliament divided and corrupt and use Presidential (whenther in civilian disguise or in uniform) decrees to run the country.

Pathetically enough, thru this order President Musharaf has allowed Jamali to show some muscle but as you have pointed out Ministry does not have jurisdiction over the hotels to impose such order. It is shameless and miserable.

## kaurasach #49
As far as shiv sena and other fundamentalists, i see it as one evil destroying the other.
##

Whether western influence in India is ``corrupting`` or not is something for each individual to decide. Change makes everyone uncomfortable. But to have a bunch of goons tell me about culture is really rich. Well if that was all they were doing, I`d probably give them the finger and move on. But no. These chaps rough up teenagers outside college gates and burn down cards in shops. That, my friend, is not acceptable.

Everyone has a right to be stupid. And it is enshrined in the constitution. The Sena has no business arm-twisting innocent Punekars. You are welcome to go watch the hijras. Just let me watch my FTV in peace.

fountainheader

Marathi grammar was always my weak point but I like to use Marathi nevertheless. And Punekars like us will have to discontinue being an@l-retentive about the usage. The DJs are simply reflecting a colloquialised version of the language. We have also b@astardised Hindi into Mumbaiyya. Ugich kashala bom marache. Aplya ithe spastha bolnare rahelet tari kiti. (Radio Mirchi sucks anyway.)

Ref Field Marshal Romair #19

[If we follow purely Constitutional arguments, then Jamali, being the democratically elected head of Pakistan, should be supported on his banning of fashion shows (regardless of people’s personal opinion), with respect to Musharraf over-ruling him. One can make a Constitutional argument for or against Jamali on this. However, Constitutionally speaking, Musharraf shouldn’t even exist. Hence his over-rule should be opposed.]

Well, Mushy is only following Jinnah in giving orders to the elected Prime Minister.

RE khotasikka ``Sounds just like amchi Pune. The local Shiv Sena tries each year to stop Valentine`s Day celebrations. They are successful to a large extent as well, terrorising teenagers outside college gates and setting greeting cards on fire. But it only serves to make it more appealing I think. Its funny how these clowns spit into the wind. ``

Shiv Senachi aai cha pu.... 20 years ago in Pune we had people outside the colleges giving out free roses for those who wished to give them to their Valentines....

Re Bharatvaasi # 40:

Tort is from the old law French meaning hurt. The law of torts deals with legal obligations which exist between individuals based on the unwritten notion of a ``duty of care`` (for example, I have a duty of care not to hit someone with my car, or feed them something poisonous). The law of torts is the flip side of a coin, with the law of contract on the other side. The law of contract deals with the legal obligations which exist between people based on written agreements (for example, I have a contratual duty to pay someone I have bought a pair of shoes from).

Now, If I may be allowed to comment on Mantolives/YLH`s observation that murder in Pakistan is a tort and not a crime. I agree it`s a catchy phrase, but I don`t think it`s entirely correct.

A crime is an act which is so reprehensible that social norms, as reflected by the laws creted by the elected representatives of the people, proscribe it. Fraud is a good example. Think of a situation where I have bought a pair of shoes from you, but have refused to pay. This would normally be a contractual issue, and my liability would be in the form of damages to be paid for breach of contract (said to be a civil liability). But if it can be shown that I deliberately took the shoes from you and had no intention of paying, then social norms dictate that civil liability will not be enough to punish me: I will have to undergo a penalty of a fine along with a jail sentence (in other words, my act so violated the social fabric that I will have to have my liberty taken from me in order to restore order in the universe).

Civil liability also arises in tort cases. For example, if I breach my duty of care and drive my car rashly onto, say, a pavement and thereby injure someone, I have said to have rived negligently and will be legally bound to pay the injured person money to help him recover back to the point (or as close to it) before his accident. Still, however, my liability is civil and in the form of money. It is only if it can be shown that I intentionally drove onto the pavement in order to injure people will I incurr any criminal liability in terms of a jail sentence.

Anyway, I digress. Manolives/YLH`s point stems from the fact that the Qisas and Diyat Ordinances make it clear that even a murderer can be spared punishment if the victim`s family agree to be paid blood money. In other words, the murderer can be said to have nothing more than a civil liability (in the form of the Diyat payment). This is true theortically, but not in practice. In my years of practice, I have never come across a case where the victim`s family (and here I speak of non-honor killing cases) has been spared.

However, on the theoretical plane, I should add that all criminal acts involving (I think) injury to the body are liable to be forgiven under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinances. Thus, not only can murder be considered a tort, but so can assault, battery, rape and so on.

Rafay Alam

Manto:
Sad news indeed. But in a way, one to give thanks for little blessings too. May Alavi sahib`s soul rest in peace!

---

kaurasach:
You said what I would like to have, but bit my lower lip coz I`m not Indian. Good on ya!

---

Urstruly, re #50
`` One should keep in mind that fashion shows present both male and female models (and sometimes the middle sex as well). So I dont see that ``gender discrimination`` argument is a valid argument.``

I suppose Urstruly would have us believe that thise fashion shows would have been banned even if they featured males exclusively.

Oh the knots we tie ourselves up in! ~sigh!~

re. rafay-alam #53:
``...In other words, the murderer can be said to have nothing more than a civil liability (in the form of the Diyat payment). This is true theortically, but not in practice. In my years of practice, I have never come across a case where the [killer`s] family (and here I speak of non-honor killing cases) has been spared.``

Alam sahib, what is true (in the sense of being valid) in theory is, by definition, also true in practice. It is another matter that most--not all, mind you-- killers` families are not spared. I think for anyone concerned with the law and justice, and not enamoured of seventh-century Arabian tribal jurisprudence, it is worrying enough that the practice of paying off the victim`s family is completely within the ambit of the law-- regardless of the frequency of such practice-- for all the temptations it affords the families of social `discontents` alone.

Urstruly # 50:

You got me. Your`re right, my reasoning is not solid when I state that the Order refers only to women in fashion shows. But what else could I do (one has to work with space, time and content restraints)? To be honest, my first draft of this piece had a riff along the following lines: If women are the reason why fashion shows are ``obscene``, would it be Islamic to have men in ghararas and saris walking down catwalks? But my wife objected (she is of milder disposition than myself).

In any case, I think the assumption - even though unsupported - is correct. What else about fashion shows could the government possibly object to?

Rafay Alam

khotasikka

You can`t really call ``amchi`` Pune as colloquial because the common Punekar does not say it. We still say ``amche`` Pune. The ``amchi`` is introduced by journalists and RJs who dont know marathi well enough, and thought that since mumbai is ``amchi mumbai``, hence pune would be ``amchi pune``.

Not that it ``offends`` my marathi-ness if someone keeps saying ``amchi`` pune. However I can`t help but correct the error. If despite it people want to keep saying ``amchi``, it`s a free country. :)

In re PM # 57

Fair enough. Got me again.

Rafay Alam

PM/rafay_alam:
I wonder if either of you or anyone else knows the answer to this question. In case of murder and diyat, has the govt. of Pakistan fixed the amount of compensation? If so, is compensation the same for everyone or vary with the gender and religion of the victim and perpetrator? I am asking this question because I believe the sahria has different compensations for various categories.

Harimau,

No doubt you will agree that post of Governor General existed via constitution, and the first governor general of Pakistan came to power through a legal succession enacted by the British parliament`s Government of India act and Independence of India Act. In other words unlike in General Musharraf`s self proclaimed presidency, there was no army and army coup then.

On the contrary, Musharraf is a not a leader who enjoys popular support or the legitimacy of a system.

Personally I would prefer to have an elected president who can over rule any idiotic decisions of a prime minister Jamali who is a confused fatso.

-YLH

re:#49 by kaurasach
I agree with you when you say that India should not ape the west in matters of culture. Fashion show is just one instance.

But then, who is to define what India`s culture is. Go to Goa and you see a very different (and highly westernised) culture as compared to, say Madras. Culture will keep changing depending on people`s choice and there is nothing one can do about it.

Are the Fashion shows bad? They are in as far as they showcase women as sex objects. If women do not object, then who is to stop them. Let us not forget that this kind of openness is not new to India. India is the land of Kamasutra and all those erotic sculptures in Khajraho (spell?) did not drop from the heavens. So, there was a time when these things were ``passe``. Why should the present be different?

As Gandhiji once said ``we will welcome all cultures like fresh breeze through the window but refuse to be blown away by it`` ( i do not remember the exact quote but i think i am close).
Sridhar

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...and you thought Pakistan had problems:


December 03, 2003, 8:40 a.m.
European Dishonor
Sharia on the Old Continent.

By Lorenzo Vidino & Erick Stakelbeck

Young women killed for dating. Limbs amputated for petty theft. Makeshift courts deciding the fates of members of local Muslim communities. The Western world has grown accustomed to hearing about the brutalities of Islamic law. However, these primitive practices are no longer limited to the remote tribal areas of Pakistan, the backward kingdom of Saudi Arabia, or oppressive, mullah-dominated Iran. Today, thanks in large part to a massive flow of immigration from Muslim countries, sharia law and medieval customs are becoming increasingly common in the heart of Christian Europe.








One of the most shocking examples of this new reality occurred in Sweden last year, when a Kurdish woman was killed by her father for having a romantic relationship with a Swedish man. Fadime Sahindal, 26, had taken her father and brother to sharia court in 1998, alleging that they had threatened to kill her for refusing to marry a Kurdish man the family had chosen for her. The two received only light sentences, however, and continued to abuse Fadime until, in 2002, her father shot and killed her. Disturbingly, the young woman was well aware of the fate that awaited her, as she said during the 1998 trial: ``The only way for the family to regain its honor now that I have spread dishonor over it is to kill me.``

Cases similar to Fadime`s have been reported in France and Denmark. In England last September, a Kurdish father slit his daughter`s throat because he disapproved of her Christian boyfriend and Westernized way of life. And, recently, in the port town of Taranto in southern Italy, a Muslim man who suspected that his wife had committed adultery decided — after consulting with members of his local Muslim community — that she should be stoned to death. The tragedy was only averted thanks to the intervention of local police.

Honor killings are not limited to Muslim countries and are, in fact, a common practice in several third-world cultures. Not all Muslims approve of them, and, according to some Muslim scholars, they do not reflect ``real Islam.`` Nevertheless, the Koran itself permits men to beat their wives (Chapter 4, Verse 34), and the sharia-inspired penal codes of most Muslim countries give the benefit of the doubt to a man who kills his wife, daughter, or sister for engaging in adulterous or immoral behavior. This barbaric practice, which has not been seen in European countries in well over a century, is making an unsavory return within the Old Continent`s Muslim communities.

The effects of the application of sharia in Europe are not limited to Muslim women. Last year, in the small Italian town of Eboli, hospital workers treated a young Algerian man whose fingers on his right hand had been chopped off. Under questioning, the man refused to reveal how he had sustained his injuries, but investigators have no doubt that he was the victim of punishment carried out according to Islamic law. Authorities in southern Italy, where many migrants from North Africa flock to work in agriculture, are becoming accustomed to such incidents. A Sicilian doctor revealed to the Italian magazine Panorama that victims of violent sharia justice go to the hospital only as a last resort, ``when the bleeding is serious.`` He added that he had become knowledgeable about how amputations must be made according to Islamic tradition (the hand has to be chopped off piece by piece, without breaking any bones).

While these incidents may seem isolated, in actuality, several Muslim groups in Europe openly advocate the introduction of sharia in the West. Uneducated immigrants might use sharia simply because it is a system they are more familiar with, but militant Islamic organizations push for the introduction of Islamic law because they believe it is a superior system, the law revealed by God, and therefore the only acceptable law.

In Germany, Milli Gorus, a militant Turkish Islamic organization with more than 200,000 members, is accused by German intelligence of promoting Islamic law among Turkish immigrants in Europe. The August 2001 issue of Milli Gorus`s official publication, Milli Gazete, featured an article stating that ``A religious Muslim is also at the same time an advocate for sharia. The state, the media, and the courts have no rights to interfere. The allegiance of a Muslim to sharia cannot be condemned or questioned.``

In Britain, the rapid spread of radical Islam in urban areas has led to major social exclusion and the development of sharia among England`s Muslims. Al-Muhajiroun, a London-based fundamentalist group with sympathizers throughout Britain`s burgeoning Muslim communities, has made the struggle against ``man-made law`` one of the key points of its agenda, declaring that its members do not recognize English law, but only Islamic law. (Nevertheless, al-Muhajiroun`s leaders do not disdain collecting unemployment benefits generously granted by English ``man-made law.``)

In Italy, mainstream Muslim groups have asked for the introduction of Islamic marriages with no legal effects under Italian law, a de facto subtraction of the wedlock from the control of authorities. This request is aimed at creating a situation where two different legal systems regulate the lives of two different groups of citizens within the same state. In European legal history, it would represent a jump back to the Middle Ages, when different laws applied to different ethnicities. In practical terms, it would mean that Italian citizens of Muslim faith would be subtracted from the guarantees that the Italian legal system provides to its citizens. Therefore, while Christian Italian women would have the same rights as Italian men, Muslim Italian women would have very few rights. While a Christian woman would have the right to obtain a divorce simply by filing papers, a Muslim woman would have to go to great lengths to prove ill treatment at the hands of her husband.

Multiculturalists and leftist defenders of uncontrolled immigration, uneasy when confronted with episodes of the brutal application of sharia in Europe`s Muslim ghettoes, are quick to predict that these incidents will disappear once Muslims are wealthier and better integrated into Western society through marriage to native Europeans. Unfortunately, it doesn`t appear that these predictions will come true in the foreseeable future. Muslims in Europe account for the vast majority of those living under the poverty line, and Muslim neighborhoods are the poorest areas in nearly every European city. Furthermore, statistics show that the majority of European Muslims are not marrying indigenous Europeans but other Muslims, either from their country of origin or from within local Muslim communities.

Politically correct European politicians, ever mindful not to offend their newly arrived Muslim brethren, have done little to aid in the assimilation process. As a result, immigrants who settle in Europe`s Muslim communities are often greeted with the same sharia-inspired mayhem that they left behind in their countries of origin. From England to Holland to Greece, many European Muslims have managed to segregate themselves from society at large and maintain harsh traditions ill-suited to the West. As the number of unassimilated Muslims grows and Europe`s elites continue to remain silent, the ultimate victim may turn out to be Western civilization itself.

— Erick Stakelbeck is head writer and Lorenzo Vidino is an attorney and terrorism analyst at the Investigative Project, a Washington, D.C.-based counterterrorism think tank.

## kaurasach #64
How do you call the brain washing by businesses and psychological manipulation of undeveloped minds individuality.
##

First of all, I don`t see how Valentine`s Day is compromising individuality. As far as undeveloped minds are concerned, who asked these people to be dumb in the first place. If you think big corporations are exploiting people, perhaps it is time to question everything. Not just valentine`s Day. Maybe even Holi or Diwali. Every major company is selling stuff we don`t need. Why is that ok ? You can`t protect anything or anyone forever. If its dying, its probably because it outran its utility. Just as well.

And if V Day is such a passing fad, why worry about it. It will die a natural death if people choose to. If it is an adoption from a foreign culture, then it is individual choice. I cant imagine being in college and not having rose day to look forward to. We like what we like. If companies are benefitting from this, wheres the problem?

Sheep mentality will persist in sheep. My point is that what the Sena is trying to do is treat the symptom and not the problem. Maybe if youngsters thought it cooler to celebrate Gandhi Jayanti instead of V Day, they would. But thats not for the Sena or any of the ``save our culture`` types to decide for the rest though. So let me go to my nightclub, smooch my girlfriend in public and watch my FTV. I am comfortable in my Indianness and I dont need a Sena certification for that.

Perhaps I should take back my last comment, having read this passage:

``In Germany, Milli Gorus, a militant Turkish Islamic organization with more than 200,000 members, is accused by German intelligence of promoting Islamic law among Turkish immigrants in Europe. The August 2001 issue of Milli Gorus`s official publication, Milli Gazete, featured an article stating that ``A religious Muslim is also at the same time an advocate for sharia. The state, the media, and the courts have no rights to interfere. The allegiance of a Muslim to sharia cannot be condemned or questioned.``

!!!

re. article Shariah in the Old Continent #65
The incidents reported are saddening, but would not be cause for alarm without some sort of figures. Crimes of passion are committed all the time; these ones of misplaced `honor` could be overlooked if they are mumerically equivalent-- that is, some amount of madness is going to take palce in any society-- that`s almsot a given.

What prompted me to ask for figures, and notice that none were provided in the article itself, was the stated credentials of the author.

#65 by dost-mittar
excerpts :
//..Nevertheless, the Koran itself permits men to beat their wives (Chapter 4, Verse 34), and the sharia-inspired penal codes of most Muslim countries give the benefit of the doubt to a man who kills his wife, ......... This barbaric practice, which has not been seen in European countries in well over a century, is making an unsavory return within the Old Continent`s Muslim communities. ........ Muslims in Europe account for the vast majority of those living under the poverty line, and Muslim neighborhoods are the poorest areas in nearly every European city.
//

The ``educated`` and living-in-west muslims who keep defending koran ad nauseam, should take note : recognize the source of all that is wrong with muslims these days. Backwardness of muslim communities is mainly because they have not been able to break the shackle of the ``holy`` book.

re. mohar11 #69:
While I think that strict adherenec to the book does raise problems, you should bear in mind that in the particular case (re 4:34 and wife-beating), the precdeding verses exhort the husband to try to deal with the disobedient wife with patience and reasonableness, and (in 4:34) only beat her `lightly` and only as a last resort. Still enough to offend twentyfirst-century sensibilites, i admit, but hardly the wife-battering blind prescription that many beleive it to be.

dost-mittarji:
My knowledge of the the Qisas and Diyat laws is sketchy, so I will not claim cartainty by any means... When first introduced back in the 80`s, the compensation for a death was fixed at about Rs. 2.5 lakh (or was that a minumum?). I do recall being informed that it was half for member of a religious minoirty, though, once again, I would caution against taking this as gospel truth.

Will try and google it out later...

I wonder if Asif Naqshbandi would care to comment on the article posted in #63. after all, it`s all very well to hold controversial philosophical positions but not carry out their practical imperatives. When the latter is done, it sometimes lends a whole new dimension, or meaning even, to that position.

mumbaikar #63

Before we jeer at the Pakistanis, let us not forget what happened in Mumbai to MF Hussain`s exhibits. Again it was the mighty Shiv Sena.

Atleast the Pakistanis can say that they dont have a choice. We can only plead laziness and inaction.

#70 by PM
//...try to deal with the disobedient wife with patience and reasonableness, and (in 4:34) only beat her `lightly` and only as a last resort... //

``Last resort`` - who decides this? the man himself - isn`t it? very nice. And who defines ``lightly``? Who is going enforce these rules - what happens if the husband oversteps?

But never mind. This is exactly what I was trying to point out - you are the typical of apologists - you are defending the book yet again, instead of condemning the totally unacceptable things it prescribes.

//..Still enough to offend twentyfirst-century sensibilites...//
ANother favourite excuse. Such prescriptions in Koran were evil then and they are evil now. No two ways about it.

Re Manto 61

Absolutely correct. Lest Harimau compare the GGs of Pakistan and India, the Quaid-e-Azam chose to exercise the powers temporarily conferred on a GG in the 8th Schedule of the Indian Independence Act, something Lord Mountbatten chose not to do.

Foundations of honour killing,

For the first time on chowk, there is some truth coming out, there is now an acceptance that honour killing is not a tribal custom, it has nothing to do with corruption, it is all and simply about the pak legal system.

One can use all kinds of archich arabic words of diyat and what not, the fact that it is flourishing in pakistan and is on the increase is simply because of the wider acceptance of the idea of jihad. The most educated and the sofisticated pakistanis one sees on the chowk are unanimous in the idea that non-innocents are to be killed, the central premise of jihad. Samia sarwar is the most visible case where her mother a gyneacologist, and father a wealthy business man from lahore subscribed and executed the jihadic act.

It is time that the pakistanis, at least make a move, to declare and say that let us leave this all to the state, let the state go through a process and then kill the non-innocent, let the individuals refrain from this. That will be too hard, that will be accepting that jihad is not killing of kafirs, who are by definition non-innocent.

Take it from me, the homoeectus pakistanicus, the foundation of honou killing is jihad. Pakistans problem is not jihadists, it is jihad itself.

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mumbaikar:
``Painting Goddess Saraswati naked was really in bad taste by Maqbool Fida Hussain Pandharpurkar.``
I do not know whether or not it was in bad taste, but I do know that it had existed for 20 years without anyone raising an eyebrow over it and also that Hussain has great reverence for hindu gods, goddesses and traditions even though this is not permitted by his religion. The ransacking of his house was nothing more than a symbol of the hindu me-too-fundamentalism and the growing intolerance in that most tolerant of religions.

#77 by mumbaikar

Well let us assume the worst case. That Hussain wanted to depict the Goddess naked because he wanted to make a revered icon a sex object. Just for one moment.

Now ask yourself that if someone had done something identical in the US on Christ. Its been done - Corpus Christi is a play by Terrence McNally that depicts Christ as a homo-sexual. His house wasnt ransacked, he wasnt roughed up and nor were his actors stoned. TRue, some catholic leaders took umbrage and denounced him.

But the lesson here is that both sides had a right to do what they wanted and the law of the land helped protect that right. Unfortunately I can`t say the same for mumbai today - not after what the Sena perpetrated.

And its not like the Sena are high connoiseurs of art and understand everything MFH paints. Also I pity those Hindus who are so insecure in their belief that some paint on a paper should offend deeply enough to justify goodagiri.

#78 by dost-mittar
//Hussain has great reverence for hindu gods, goddesses and traditions even though this is not permitted by his religion... The ransacking of his house was nothing more than a symbol of the hindu me-too-fundamentalism//

I am on Hussain`s side on this one. He can paint whatever he wants - NO shiv sena jacka!!** has NO rights to any violence against him or anybody supporting him.

But question that many others asked at that time, is still valid: Would Mr Hussain ever paint a naked(or clothed) Prophet Muhammad - or say, a caricature of the mecca mosque? He must be having great reverence for Muhammad and Mecca, too. If he did - what would be the muslims reaction?

Or alternately - let`s say a famous Hindu/Christian painter, who has great reverence for islam, paints a naked Muhammad. What would happen to him? Who would defend him and who would brand him as anti-muslim ?

re: fashion scene in Pakistan
No Art or culture can survive for long if it does not have the popular backing of the middle class. A case in point would be the classical dance Bharatanatyam in South India. At one time considered distasteful, this dance was revived and made popular by the likes of Rukmini Arundale.
Fashion scene in India today is similarly popular among the middle class and there is no stigma attached to it. In the following article, the author argues that Fashion scene in Pakistan does not have a popular support if its masses and it is unlikely to survive for long with continued onslaught by mullahs and ban imposed by the govt:
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/
Sridhar

mohar11:
You do not have to convince me regarding the problems created in India by those who show different attitude towards hindu and muslim sensitivities. BJP would still be stuck with single digits in the parliament if it were not able to exploit the hypociricy of Angana Chatterjees, Praful Badwais and Arundati Roys and their ilk.
...but to be fair, none of the muslim leaders in India supported Hussain during his trouble with the Shiv Sena; as far as I remember many of them were openly critical of him.

rsdihar,

I am afraid you have misunderstood Ali Lapointe`s article. No where is he arguing what you think he is arguing.

He is upset that the fashion gurus didn`t protest the ban... the ban has since then been lifted. The character of the Pakistani fashion industry is similar to the Indian fashion industry... it is a world of glamor and has the patronization of westernized upper middle class. Mind you.. this is middle class, and not the upper class as some would have us believe.

In 1980s the oppression of Zia regime led to creativity ... and fashion became an expression of protest ... which suddenly launched the Pakistani fashion industry... sadly the same intellectual basis is no longer there.


I suggest you read the article again.


:)

-YLH

re:#83 by Mantolives
I am afraid my point is still valid. Indian middle class (upper, lower all) have taken to fashion as was never done before.
http://newstodaynet.com/19nov/ss1.htm

Excerpts:
``An unprecedented frenzy over the Indians winning the Miss Universe and Miss World titles in quick succession was whipped by the beaming of the glittering events through satellite television. The euphoria made every Indian feel beautiful, to forget the squalour, privation and daily drudgery as the nation gave a standing ovation to the beautiful girls, who were seen as pride of the country.

India, many suggested, had arrived on the international arena and had carved a niche for itself on the beauty scene, at least. The country never looked back since then and did not realise that it was accelerating itself towards a total cultural degradation, worshipping beauty exemplified in the form of female bodies, fair skin and male muscles.

Perhaps the dynamics of the pageants and the commerce behind them could not be comprehended by the average Indian that winning a crown at a beauty pageant became the dream of every little girl about town and was shared by her parents, relatives and friends. To cash in on the emerging trend, pageant organisers mushroomed to give flesh and blood to the collective dream just about everywhere, including slums, putting the nation on a beauty rush.

The contests provided a hunting ground for film makers looking for fresh faces and also for fashion show organisers - another breed that was proliferating then - to spot leggy potential models. Prior to that, ramps, too, were meant for the eyes of an affluent class of cognoscenti and it was haute coutre that was showcased with highly paid models from an exclusive club alone adorning them.

It was then a class thing, an elitist activity with everyone in it - designers, choreographers, agents and event managers - coming from the upper crust of society that which had its own morals and lifestyle, which was a far cry from that of traditional India. The average Indian had nothing to do with the ramp. He could not even have a peek into it.

F-TV came and changed everything upside down. Even the riff raff managed to have an eyeful of ramp shows, that too close up shots, and everyone knew what catwalking is all about, which led to the common man developing a taste for it and some among them aspiring to be part of that alien culture.

So the fashion show organiser found his feet, besides finding the legs to strut on the ramp, and many a local beauty contest offered a bridge to the local ramp. And another trend was born. Fashion pageants that saw beautiful things prancing with an artificial gait, a plastic smile and very little to cover them became a regular feature with even small time businessmen wishing to display their wares in the fashion of the elite.

Fashion shows thus became not just a national passtime but also a sort of socio-economic leveller - bridging the gaps between the upper and upper middle classes and the elite and those with elitist aspirations. Drawing its sustenance from globalisation and blatant commerciali sation, the trend drew more people from the middle classes with varied aspirations and less inhibitions, marking the breaking of middle-class value system. ``

I am not sure if every small or big city in Pakistan has a fashion show going on, in which girls of middle class are vying with one another to become beauty queens